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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
49. Egypt were purged by the Romans
Sat Sep 14, 2013, 03:11 AM
Sep 2013
Egypt at the time of Augustus

The Romans never truly trusted Egypt. Most conquered areas had a person in the Roman Senate within 20 years of their Conquest, Egypt it took 140 years. When the various temples were rebuilt by the Emperors during the Second and Third centuries, Egypt's temples were ignored. By the time the Christians came to power in the Roman Empire, the Egyptian scribe appears to have fallen completely out of use. Greek was the language of culture in the Eastern Empire and that is what everyone spoke.

The chief reason was Egypt was the richest province in the Empire. No Patricians (and NEVER a Senator) could even visit Egypt with permission of the sitting Emperor., The Roman Ruler of Egypt was NEVER a Patrician, it was always a Prefect who was always from the Roman equestrian order

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praefectus_Augustalis

Ponitus Pilate is most famous Roman Perfect, through he never ruled Egypt. As a member of the Roman equestrian order he could NOT command Roman Troops, but could command Auxiliaries.

The Roman equestrian order had been in the early Republic the Light Cavalry of the Roman Army. During the Second Punic War, the role of Light Cavalry expanded, but they was NOT enough Roman equestrians to fill the void, so some Plebeians were put on horses then when a force of Cavalry defected from Hannibal to Rome, they were put under the Command of Roman equestrians. This started the long Roman Tradition that Auxiliaries served under Equestrians, something that was maintained till the crises of the Third Century.

Reforms of Diocletian and Constantine

I mention this for the Governor of Egypt NEVER had any Roman Troops till after the reforms of Diocletian in the late 200s. These reforms amounted to the removal of the last of Senatorial say in how the Army was operated, after Diocletian you do NOT hear of a Senator commanding an Roman Army. These reforms also put the Army in charge of the decedents of lead Centurion of each legion. Augustus had started the practice of making the Lead Centurion of each legion into the Equestrian class, but then not of that class. That group and their decedents slowly took over running the Roman Army. By the crisis of the Third Century these decedents of Centurions were being given command of the legions, which technically they could not be given (The Emperor worked around this, calling each appointment "Temporary&quot . This divided the Army from the Roman Elite but these new Equestrian were also the most dependent on the Emperor (And Constantine would surround himself with members of this class, calling them his "Companions" latin Comites, which in the Dark Ages became the word "Count".

Egypt

Rome just looted Egypt. We actually have a report from a Bishop of Egypt at the time of the Arab Conquest saying that he was glad of the Conquest for it removed the tyrants that had been stealing the Country blind.

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/arab_conquest_of_egypt.pdf

Now, you must understand the Late Roman Empire, it had three "centers", the Latin West (about 40% of the Empire), the Greek North-East (The poorest part of the Empire) and that part of the Empire From Syria to Libya that spoke variation of Arabic (Ancient Egyptian is such a variation). While that was the three main languages spoken, the language of Government, Military and Commerce were Latin and Greek. Thus from the time of Egypt being taken over by Julius Caesar and the Fall of Egypt, first to the Persian in 618-629 then to the Arabs in 642.

The last known use of hieroglyphic writing was in 394, three years after all Pagan Temples were closed by Theodosius I in 391 AD, through it appears few really understood them at that time due to Greek and Roman hostility to Egyptian Religion (Some cults were tolerated, but the religion as a whole was not).
Please note, while Theodosius I ordered all pagan temples closed in 391, he did not go out of his way to enforce his own law. Thus Justinian in the 500s had towns within the Empire with still active Pagan Temples, which he ordered closed,

Gold Coins

Theodosius I, seems to have continued Constantine I policy of how to enforce the new currency laws. The Spanish Silver Mines had watered out in the early 200s causing a huge cash problem within the Empire. Since Nero, every time a New Emperor became Emperor he paid the troops a bonus. Now, with the silver coming from the Spanish mines, you had a slight inflation. Do to that slight inflation the economy boomed. As more and more Silver was mined, what you could buy with that silver became less and less, thus inflation. On top of this, the Emperors, starting with Nero would debase the currency to pay the troops even more money (in the form of debased currency).

When the Spanish mines watered out, they was no more silver to make new coins. Thus that only left debasing the Currency, which the Emperors all did in the third century crisis. By the time of Diocletian the Roman Coins had very little Silver in them and no one wanted them and batter had become the way of the Empire. Diocletian tried to solve this problem by issuing new coins with 85% silver content. People hoarded these coins for Diocletian did not have the Silver to mint enough of them to push the bad coins out of circulation.

When Constantine became Emperor he decided to opt for a Gold Coin Instead (The Solidus) His source of Gold? The old pagan temples. Thus the Christian attacks on the Old Pagan Temples was encouraged by Constantine for one of the condition was the Christians had to turn over any pagan idols over to him to melt down (Which he did and used the gold to mint gold coins). The Solius would stay the standard of the World till 1035 when the Byzantine started to debase it (But stay an important coin in international usage till about 1300 when the Venetian Zecchino, a similar sized Gold Coin took over its place as the International Standard). The Venetian Coin, to rare for true international usage, was replaced in the role by the German Silver Thalar about 1450, from which we get the word Dollar via the Spanish and Mexican production of Mexican Dollars of the about the same size and composition (In between the Spanish Pieces of Eight and the American Dollar, the British pound for be the international currency starting about 1750 but ending during WWII)

Source of Gold for Gold Coins

I bring up the coins, for that appears to be why Constantine and his successors went after the old pagan temples, not for religious reasons, but for the gold in the golden idols. If a temple had no golden idols, it survived till Justinian's time (and maybe later). The Acropolis in many ways shows this the best. No one has EVER found a altar at the Acropolis, the reason is it was NEVER a temple. It was the Athenian bank with a huge golden idol of Athena but Altar to to her (Her Altar was in her temple in the city of Athens itself). Having a golden Idol, the Acropolis was converted to a church and the idol taken down and melted (But the pagan cravings on the walls were left alone).

Preserving the Currency seems to be the main reason the temples were attacked. In the 700s the Byzantine Empire would embrace iconoclasm, the banning of "idols" in churches. By idols they meet images of Christ and the Saints, and it seems to be for the same reason, the Emperor wanted Gold to pay the Troops, but by then they were no pagan temples, so he had to go after Christian Churches to loot.

The whole destruction of ancient temples seems to be related to establish a stable currency so the troops could be paid NOT for any other reason. The excuse was the temples were pagan, but that was NOT the reason for if it was the reason the huge number of Pagan temples that survived till the time of Justinian would not have.

Thus the movement away from paganism in the late Roman Empire was driven by the need to get gold from some place, and that appears the best place for such gold was the old Pagan Temples and that is why they were attacked, not for religious reason (through religion was used as an excuse). I hate to say this the 1% wanted their coins and from the 300s till the 1400s that was Gold.

Egypt after Rome

Egypt became the richest province of the Arabic Empire, but like most empire it collapsed within 100 years of its foundation. Spain had been conquered by then, but ruled by a different set of Moslems then ruled Egypt and Iraq. A Shiite dynasty, the Fatima dynasty ruled Egypt just before the Crusades, but they had a weak hold on the country. The Fatima Dynasty collapsed, replaced by Saladin, then the Mamaluks. It is believed Egypt was majority Christian as late as the Crusades, but the Mamaluks, fearing the Mongols, started to enforce rules that made it easier to convert to Islam, but impossible to convert back. The reason the Mamaluks believed in the maxim, one nation, one religion. They had to tolerate the Christians in Egypt, but that did not mean the could not discriminate against them (and they did).

Thus by the end of the Crusades or shortly afterward it is believed most Egyptians were Moslem. The previous Moslem Rulers had NEVER been as discriminatory as the Mamaluks became (And after them the Turks adopted many of the same rules, but not at first, only after about 1600, prior to that the Ottoman Empire was as much Greek Orthodox and is was Turkic Islamic).

I am getting away from the time period I am trying to stay on, the Dark Ages 400-1000 AD, but during that time period, Egypt was Christian, through ruled by Moslems. By agreeing to the Conquest by the Arabs, Egypt was able to get rid of their old Roman Elite and replace them with new Islamic Elite, but being new they wanted less. This is typical when one country takes over another, they replace the top and can often get the 99% to agree to their rule by increasing the share of the Country's wealth that goes to the 99%.

In the case of Egypt, many of their peasants had seen a reduction in their rental payments during the time of the Persian occupation, then saw those rental payments returned when Roman Rule was restored, that they were willing to have a new set of masters so their rents be lowered once again. This reduction in rent made Egypt boom during the period 650-900. It boomed again after Saladin replaced the Fatima Dynasty for the same reason. Egypt Stagnated as the rule of the Mamaluk lasted for Centuries. When the Turks ruled Egypt they did not replace the Mamaluk but worked with them, causing no improvement in the life of the Egyptian Peasant. When the French invaded, they did not make the needed land reforms, and that failure has continued. Sooner or later someone will do land reform in Egypt and Egypt will boom, but that means talking lands away from the present rulers of Egypt, and those Army Generals will oppose that.


Ancient Greek Ideas spreads to Italy

You mention the Arabs preserving Ancient Greek Ideas, but the spread of those ideas into Italy appears to be from Constantinople after that city was sacked by the Fourth Crusade (the only Crusade Condemned before it even started by the Pope). The result of that Crusade was the destruction of what had been the largest city in the World at that time (Baghdad would then surpass it, but in 1258 it would be sacked by the Mongols, who called it the Largest City they ever took, and that included the cities of China).

The leading minds of Constantinople, after 1204 started a slow but steady movement to Italy and with this movement you get the start of the Renaissance. Roman law is rediscovered, Greek art and Science is rediscovered. There seems to be a similar draw of knowledge from Moslem Spain, but not from the Middle East proper (Algebra and the concept of Zero seems to have come from Spain, but one ninth century pope endorsed zero and the decimal digit system, through we have no written report of people in Western Europe using Hindu-Arabic Numbers till after Linen Paper in introduced into Europe in the 1200s).

The Mongol sacking of Baghdad had scared everyone in the Mid East, the Mamaluk rulers of Egypt decided they needed some breathing space so they defeated an out post of the Mongols in Syria. After that battle the Mamaluks then rigged a war with the remaining Crusading kingdoms to drive them out of the Middle East. Unlike earlier wars where both sides tried to preserve the economy of the country they were conquering, the Mamaluks did not want the economy to survive, they wanted a dead space between themselves and the Mongols. The Crusaders wanted to preserve the economy of that part of the Middle East, but the Mamaluks had another agenda. Thus the almost complete destruction of the Crusaders kingdoms, castles and most important for the Mamaluks, the farm fields. In the previous 200 years both sides had done massacres of each other civilians, but had left the field and the peasants working those fields alone, now their were the targets.

This fears of the Mongols made any information exchange between the Arabs and the West impossible at that time period, thus it was the Moslems in Spain and the survivors of the Fourth Crusades out of Constantinople that brought ancient Greek teachings to Italy during the Renaissance. A time period of improve crop yields as the Middle Ages Warm Period replaced the Dark Age Cold period.
Shhh I believe Laochtine Sep 2013 #1
Finally an answer! Small Accumulates Sep 2013 #2
Bwahahahahaha! progressoid Sep 2013 #3
Awe-inspiring! One's spirit soars. n/t Judi Lynn Sep 2013 #4
Brilliant, I literally laughed out loud! You won this thread, SA! Surya Gayatri Sep 2013 #9
Granite? 46 miles from Wales? Coyotl Sep 2013 #12
The Stonehenge site was active for a long time, starting with timbers. hunter Sep 2013 #44
Interpretations are just that, not facts. Coyotl Sep 2013 #47
I hope you're not mistaking me for some kind of new-age interloper... hunter Sep 2013 #48
Knowing the shortest and longest days of the year, can be a powerful tool happyslug Sep 2013 #5
Isn't it amazing that what has been termed in the past as "stone age" cavemen Hestia Sep 2013 #6
Basic engineering is quite simple, also Longitude needs constant time to be effective. happyslug Sep 2013 #7
Engineering an aqueduct may look easy on paper, but without using modern Hestia Sep 2013 #14
Most Aquaducts were and are ground level happyslug Sep 2013 #15
Göbekli Tepe Coyotl Sep 2013 #13
have you seen "the mystery of chaco canyon"? an amazing documentary on this strange question niyad Sep 2013 #16
Venus is important because her path was tracked? aquart Sep 2013 #19
Looking at the stars was popular before the days of TV happyslug Sep 2013 #25
We've lost our way Cartoonist Sep 2013 #8
"The Dark Ages" was to eliminate intellectuals and impose a feudal system based on religion.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #11
The Dark Ages was a move to strengthen the lower classes and take power from the 1% happyslug Sep 2013 #17
You failed to mention the Church held authority as to who was considered to be "royalty".... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #18
Sure, because nobody with royal blood had ever been executed before. aquart Sep 2013 #21
During the Renaissance such executions were rare happyslug Sep 2013 #26
People were told the richer the king, the better off the kingdom.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #30
Again a Renaissance concept, we are talking about the Dark Ages. happyslug Sep 2013 #32
No, that "rich king being better for you" idea goes WAY back. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #34
Yes, you see it is the Ancient World, Ancient Eygpt, Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece etc happyslug Sep 2013 #35
Actually, you are claiming the Dark Ages was only "dark" for the 1%.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #38
If you read the history, the Church was NOT that independent at that time period happyslug Sep 2013 #39
"the Pope had to be loyal to the the Franks" Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #40
What the POPE said and what the POPE wanted are and were TWO different things happyslug Sep 2013 #41
The Romans originally were after England's tin for bronze production.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #43
I do not see an anti-intellectual attitude in that time period happyslug Sep 2013 #45
While Europe under Christianity went through the Dark Ages, the Muslim World did NOT... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #46
Egypt were purged by the Romans happyslug Sep 2013 #49
Actually, the final blow to Egypt was when the "mad monks of Nitria" tore Hyapatia to pieces.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #50
I see you problem, you are of the Ronald Reagan School of History happyslug Sep 2013 #51
"you get your history from movies." Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #52
I am sorry, movies are a bad source of history happyslug Sep 2013 #53
"I am sorry," Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #54
Sure they had, just not after a trial. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #27
Actually that is NOT a Dark Age concept, That is a Renaissance and Reformation Concept happyslug Sep 2013 #22
By "elected kings" don't you mean "warrior kings"? If you fought for the church you recieved title. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #29
The Church was quick to recognize someone rights to land, when he had troops all over it. happyslug Sep 2013 #31
Let's not forget tax collection and "tribute". Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #33
Actually, that skit misses a problem happyslug Sep 2013 #36
1. Use grammar check or a good friend before you post long pieces. aquart Sep 2013 #20
No one likes the Dark Ages, they try to skip from Rome to the Crusades. happyslug Sep 2013 #23
People ignore it because there is so little believable history from it. Records just sucked. aquart Sep 2013 #24
I have tried to understand Feudalism, something that has been under attack for at least 600 years happyslug Sep 2013 #28
What's your view of feudalism? hunter Sep 2013 #37
That is one of the reason you often have to read between the lines happyslug Sep 2013 #42
I only wish to point out a failing in popular English: a jigsaw IS NOT a jigsaw puzzle HereSince1628 Sep 2013 #10
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