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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
23. No one likes the Dark Ages, they try to skip from Rome to the Crusades.
Thu Sep 12, 2013, 09:45 AM
Sep 2013

People have problems with the Dark Ages, it is so unlike the Roman and Greek World AND the post Renaissance world of today. The biggest change was that the Cities declined rapidly after the Vandals took Carthage in about 450 AD and trade in the Mediterranean sea ended (and did not resume after the Eastern Roman Empire re-took Carthage in the 520s and held its almost to 700 AD).

In many ways, the Dark Ages were more pro-99% and less pro 1% then had been Rome and is the situation today. Some problems we have today understanding the Dark Ages:

1. People in motion, not just armies but whole tribes moving all over Europe, during the Migration period of 400-800, then by individuals till that was crack down on in the High Middle Ages after 1000 AD,

2. What we called "Nationality" did not exist, You were a Roman Citizen and a Christian OR you were a member of a Barbarian Tribe and a Christian was the norm. You often were a Roman Citizen subject to a Barbarian ruler, both of whom were Christians and you own duties to both your local Roman or Tribal leader AND to whatever Barbarian lord controlled your area.

3. People move about almost to a modern level, but then only on foot, Some of this was the movement of the Barbarian Tribes, but some of this was peasants moving to a better place to live (and often Peasants in full Scale Revolt., especially in the last years of the Western Roman Empire).

4. People had a voice in who their leaders were, and most kings and local leaders were elected by the other members of their tribe or group.

5. Woman had rights (Rights of Women reached their height in the Dark Ages, then declined as society embraced the Renaissance). This included the right to marry without a dowry, the right to refuse to marry if your father told you to, and the right to inherit from their father equal to their brothers in all things except land (Land ownership was tied in with Military duty, thus wives who did inherit from their Father had to marry, so their husband could perform that Military Duty or enter a convent from where they still controlled their land).

6. People had a voice in their local Government, i.e. Village Level and with the local Chieftain, such meetings were done all the time. Most disputes were handled by these local councils.

7. Most advances in Technology were things that helped the peasants, it was a period of greatest improvement in the lives of the 99% until the 19th century and the Industrial Revolution kicked in full steam, these improvements include the following:

a. The Horse Collar
b. The Horse Shoe
c. Hay
d. Stirrups
e. The Wooden tree for Saddles
f. The spread of the Iron Plow
g. The spread of Ball Bearings and they use in wagons
f. The Water Wheel reached Western Europe.
h. Candles

Now, some of these items existed in Roman days, but we have no record of them being used by the Peasants of the time period (and we have found a lot of Horses, Saddles, Farm Equipment, wagons etc to know what the peasants had access to) Example of this are as follows:

a. Ball Bearings (no use on Wagons in Roman Days, but the norm by the end of the Dark Ages, but Ball Bearings are seen in some high end devices for the 1% as early as the First Century so the concept was known),

b. The Heavy Iron Plow some how made it from Asia Minor to the Slavs before 500, who then used it to spread their farming technology throughout Europe, even introducing the Heavy Iron Plow Into England.
c. The Water Wheel, known in the Middle East by the time of Alexander the Great, only starts to be seen in Western Europe as the Roman Empire breaks up and we enter the Dark Ages.

d. Saddles were known to the Late Roman Empire (from about 200 AD onward, but the Romans used Bronze plates to give their Saddles form, the Wooden Tree replaced these plates in the Dark Ages.

e. Candles, another Chinese invention of about 200 BC that reached Europe during the Dark Ages, but its adoption may be related to the ending of East-West Trade. Candles came to replace Olive Oil used in lamps. Olive Oil was produced in areas that were cut off from trade with Western Europe after the Vandals took Carthage in 451 AD, and cut off from Constantinople when the olive producing areas of the Ancient World, Syria and the surrounding area, came under Moslem Rule.

As you can see a lot of what use to be obtained by trade during the time of the Roman Empire, had to be produced locally during the Dark Ages, thus what could be produced locally replaced what use to be obtained by trade. Inferior Pottery replaced the much higher grade pottery produced in mass production facilities during the Roman Empire (While the quality of Jewelry remained about the same, for Jewelry was always something produced locally), Candles, which could be produced locally, replaced Olive Oil, Butter, another product that could be produced locally, also replaced Olive Oil for cooking. This reduced the living standards of the local 1%, but had beneficial affect on the 99% who had always used locally produced items for they were cheaper (and the reduction in trade strengthen the local makers, who tended to be with the 99% for we are talking about one man occupations, they bargaining power as to the 1% improved).

I can go on and on, but the Dark Ages are only dark if you look to how the 1% lived, the other 99% saw a clear improvement in their standard of living. The mass kill offs tended to be tied in with efforts of the Roman Elite to reestablish themselves or with various plaques that hit (and the Plagues seems to be tied in with the Climate change of the time period, it is now called the Dark Ages Cold Period, they tended to hit at the start of a new reduction in world wide temperatures, which also were the time periods of the mass movement of people into the Roman Empire or what had been the Roman Empire).

Paper on Tempertures over the last 2000 years:
http://www.agbjarn.blog.is/users/fa/agbjarn/files/ljungquist-temp-reconstruction-2000-years.pdf

Side note: While most Cities either cease to exist or became small, the Capital of the Eastern Roman Empire expanded. During the Dark Ages, Constantinople was the largest city in the world, maybe even becoming bigger then Rome had been during its height (Rome was still the largest city in the World when the Vandals took it in 460 AD, but during the Italian wars of the 530s its population had dropped to Zero, in the early 400s Constantinople was still a small city, but by the 500s it replaced Rome as the World's largest City, when this happened is hard to say today).

We know Constantinople was the largest city in the World in 1204 when it was taken by the Fourth Crusades, for even the Arabs conceded it was larger then Baghdad at that time period. We know Baghdad was the largest city in the World in 1258 when the Mongols took it for the Mongols commented it was larger then the Cities they had taken in China or elsewhere.

Shhh I believe Laochtine Sep 2013 #1
Finally an answer! Small Accumulates Sep 2013 #2
Bwahahahahaha! progressoid Sep 2013 #3
Awe-inspiring! One's spirit soars. n/t Judi Lynn Sep 2013 #4
Brilliant, I literally laughed out loud! You won this thread, SA! Surya Gayatri Sep 2013 #9
Granite? 46 miles from Wales? Coyotl Sep 2013 #12
The Stonehenge site was active for a long time, starting with timbers. hunter Sep 2013 #44
Interpretations are just that, not facts. Coyotl Sep 2013 #47
I hope you're not mistaking me for some kind of new-age interloper... hunter Sep 2013 #48
Knowing the shortest and longest days of the year, can be a powerful tool happyslug Sep 2013 #5
Isn't it amazing that what has been termed in the past as "stone age" cavemen Hestia Sep 2013 #6
Basic engineering is quite simple, also Longitude needs constant time to be effective. happyslug Sep 2013 #7
Engineering an aqueduct may look easy on paper, but without using modern Hestia Sep 2013 #14
Most Aquaducts were and are ground level happyslug Sep 2013 #15
Göbekli Tepe Coyotl Sep 2013 #13
have you seen "the mystery of chaco canyon"? an amazing documentary on this strange question niyad Sep 2013 #16
Venus is important because her path was tracked? aquart Sep 2013 #19
Looking at the stars was popular before the days of TV happyslug Sep 2013 #25
We've lost our way Cartoonist Sep 2013 #8
"The Dark Ages" was to eliminate intellectuals and impose a feudal system based on religion.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #11
The Dark Ages was a move to strengthen the lower classes and take power from the 1% happyslug Sep 2013 #17
You failed to mention the Church held authority as to who was considered to be "royalty".... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #18
Sure, because nobody with royal blood had ever been executed before. aquart Sep 2013 #21
During the Renaissance such executions were rare happyslug Sep 2013 #26
People were told the richer the king, the better off the kingdom.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #30
Again a Renaissance concept, we are talking about the Dark Ages. happyslug Sep 2013 #32
No, that "rich king being better for you" idea goes WAY back. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #34
Yes, you see it is the Ancient World, Ancient Eygpt, Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece etc happyslug Sep 2013 #35
Actually, you are claiming the Dark Ages was only "dark" for the 1%.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #38
If you read the history, the Church was NOT that independent at that time period happyslug Sep 2013 #39
"the Pope had to be loyal to the the Franks" Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #40
What the POPE said and what the POPE wanted are and were TWO different things happyslug Sep 2013 #41
The Romans originally were after England's tin for bronze production.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #43
I do not see an anti-intellectual attitude in that time period happyslug Sep 2013 #45
While Europe under Christianity went through the Dark Ages, the Muslim World did NOT... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #46
Egypt were purged by the Romans happyslug Sep 2013 #49
Actually, the final blow to Egypt was when the "mad monks of Nitria" tore Hyapatia to pieces.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #50
I see you problem, you are of the Ronald Reagan School of History happyslug Sep 2013 #51
"you get your history from movies." Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #52
I am sorry, movies are a bad source of history happyslug Sep 2013 #53
"I am sorry," Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #54
Sure they had, just not after a trial. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #27
Actually that is NOT a Dark Age concept, That is a Renaissance and Reformation Concept happyslug Sep 2013 #22
By "elected kings" don't you mean "warrior kings"? If you fought for the church you recieved title. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #29
The Church was quick to recognize someone rights to land, when he had troops all over it. happyslug Sep 2013 #31
Let's not forget tax collection and "tribute". Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #33
Actually, that skit misses a problem happyslug Sep 2013 #36
1. Use grammar check or a good friend before you post long pieces. aquart Sep 2013 #20
No one likes the Dark Ages, they try to skip from Rome to the Crusades. happyslug Sep 2013 #23
People ignore it because there is so little believable history from it. Records just sucked. aquart Sep 2013 #24
I have tried to understand Feudalism, something that has been under attack for at least 600 years happyslug Sep 2013 #28
What's your view of feudalism? hunter Sep 2013 #37
That is one of the reason you often have to read between the lines happyslug Sep 2013 #42
I only wish to point out a failing in popular English: a jigsaw IS NOT a jigsaw puzzle HereSince1628 Sep 2013 #10
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