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FarrenH

(768 posts)
25. Your argument is very strange
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:45 PM
Jul 2014

Last edited Wed Jul 23, 2014, 11:25 PM - Edit history (7)

Recognizing South Africa as being originally a single state that was carved up had NOTHING to do with the world's condemnation of SA Apartheid.

The world condemned South African Apartheid because our government dispossessed a native population of land and residency and contrived a fiction that they were all residents of "autonomous" scraps of land that whites didn't want and were under the de facto control of the Apartheid government anyway, for the convenience of whites and to the detriment of blacks. The previous historical incorporation of the land into the modern state is basically irrelevant trivia. In fact, doing it outside your asserted borders (to displaced former residents of land from within those borders) is arguably worse. Let me repeat this: The majority of Gaza's population are refugees or the descendants of refugees that lived in what is today Israel. That is the formal position of the UN.

Your moral compass must be completely broken if you think that the world's opprobrium had anything to do with formal past incorporation. If we took land by force of arms and forced black South Africans all to become residents of the tiny neighbouring state of Swaziland, then militarily surrounded and occupied Swaziland itself, taking the lions share of essential resources like water there, built white suburbs everywhere in between their towns and enforced different laws for different people in the nominally African state, of *course* we would have attracted the exact same criticism. Maybe more. What a silly proposition!

No, that has nothing to do with why we call it Apartheid. It certainly isn't part of the definition of Apartheid the Rome Statute calls "The Crime of Apartheid". In fact that crime in international law was described in a manner that did not match the exact legal structure and history of Apartheid precisely because the intention was to prevent particular features of Apartheid from happening again, not every tiny detail that doesn't have moral bearing.

And aside from that definition in international law there is a broader, common sense understanding shared by virtually every moral titan of our own struggle to throw off Apartheid, many of whom have (having actually spent time in Israel and the OT) called the situation there unmistakably equivalent and even worse than Apartheid. That's right. Numerous black leaders of the struggle against Apartheid here actually went there, saw what was going on, and said the Palestinians in the OT are more oppressed than black people here were.

And before you launch into a red herring about Gaza having no settlers, let me head that off by saying Gaza and the West Bank are two parts of one phenomenon. I mentioned it because the fact that the majority of its population are displaced natives is supremely relevant. Theft and control, for the benefit of one ethnicity, to the detriment of another. Those were defining features of Apartheid.

Its incredibly tiresome hearing the same straw clutching arguments over irrelevant historical minutiae over and over again in this debate when that argument is already settled in International legal terms. The nations of the world already reached consensus on what the actual crime was, and it wasn't "exactly what South Africa had". It was "these aspects of what South Africa had". And South Africans, especially my fellow black South Africans have a hell of a lot more moral authority to say what the defining evils of Apartheid were than someone trying to justify Apartheid elsewhere.

Don’t Accuse Israel of Apartheid [View all] Shaktimaan Jul 2014 OP
By the standards used to justify the use of the term for Israel, dozens of modern countries WatermelonRat Jul 2014 #1
Oh in this group they will claim to know better than someone who lived there, King_David Jul 2014 #2
But it's such good propaganda, aranthus Jul 2014 #3
True. Genocide is more accurate. nt HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #4
only to those who are confused as to... Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #5
Look up what genocide is. 840high Jul 2014 #55
Okay. Here: HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #58
noun HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #84
This message was self-deleted by its author lostincalifornia Jul 2014 #80
Too late ... Israeli Jul 2014 #6
Shulamit Aloni never lived in Apartheid South Africa King_David Jul 2014 #11
Don't accuse Israel of Apartheid FarrenH Jul 2014 #7
Don't accuse - Just Boycott, Divest, and Sanction. 4now Jul 2014 #8
Whoomp, there It Is! R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2014 #9
Where is it? Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #12
Desmond Tutu: U.S. Christians must recognize Israel as apartheid stat R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2014 #13
Wow Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #14
Asked and answered, many times FarrenH Jul 2014 #15
Before... Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #16
You're making an assumption that isn't reasonable FarrenH Jul 2014 #18
No I understand that. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #19
You're making a distinction without a difference FarrenH Jul 2014 #21
Except. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #22
I'm VERY familiar with it FarrenH Jul 2014 #23
You aren't supporting your argument though. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #24
Your argument is very strange FarrenH Jul 2014 #25
Actually lots of people do. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #53
If Israel is apartheid SnakeEyes Jul 2014 #10
If apartheid does not exist in one part of a country shaayecanaan Jul 2014 #17
Precisely FarrenH Jul 2014 #20
exactly shaayecanaan ... Israeli Jul 2014 #29
Why not? ann--- Jul 2014 #26
Except I would have the same rights. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #27
Try reading this.... ann--- Jul 2014 #28
Ok. I read it. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #41
This message was self-deleted by its author ann--- Jul 2014 #54
I would hope timdog44 Jul 2014 #34
Huh? Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #40
Are you serious with this post? King_David Jul 2014 #48
Interesting take from someone who lived in both places and times. n/t freshwest Jul 2014 #30
Just another variation of progressive except where Palestinians are concerned FarrenH Jul 2014 #31
Hi. timdog44 Jul 2014 #33
So glad to hear from you! Have been through a lot too. Having computer troubles now. Talk later. freshwest Jul 2014 #36
Apartheid timdog44 Jul 2014 #32
Ok. That's awesome. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #38
LOL King_David Jul 2014 #43
Omg! I missed this part! Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #39
Jews timdog44 Jul 2014 #42
Makes no difference what YOU accept , at all. King_David Jul 2014 #44
Jews timdog44 Jul 2014 #46
Jews are a nation King_David Jul 2014 #47
Jews are a nation timdog44 Jul 2014 #49
Sides ? King_David Jul 2014 #50
Miltinational state. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #78
Statement issued from 1885 Conference of Rabbis: HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #59
So who cares what the Rabbis say ? King_David Jul 2014 #60
All you needed was a gift from the UN, a gift that wasn't theirs to give. HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #61
What's the UN got to do with deciding King_David Jul 2014 #62
I guess you haven't studied history, HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #63
Oh I know exactly what I am talking about, King_David Jul 2014 #64
Would the State of Israel exist, without the UN stealing half of Palestine to give to them? HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #66
We were talking about Jews King_David Jul 2014 #67
I'm sorry. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #75
Understandable the % Jewish population rose, HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #85
You certainly are guessing. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #90
Here's your facts, Bob. HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #92
Did you actually read my post? Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #95
So then Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #76
Wikipedia the word nation. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #77
I think you did not read the entire article. timdog44 Jul 2014 #87
Of course I did. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #91
At this point let's just brand Israel as murderers. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2014 #35
Let's not Aerows Jul 2014 #37
Thanks again for setting the record right with that particular poster King_David Jul 2014 #45
35. At this point let's just brand Israel as murderers. R. Daneel Olivaw Jul 2014 #57
Why? It's true ann--- Jul 2014 #51
Thanks for the post timdog44 Jul 2014 #56
What you believe? King_David Jul 2014 #65
Nice to have you follow me around. timdog44 Jul 2014 #68
Where do you get this stuff from? King_David Jul 2014 #69
Sad to have timdog44 Jul 2014 #70
Cite please King_David Jul 2014 #71
Not sue that citing apartheid timdog44 Jul 2014 #72
OK was fun but enough now, What Shaktimaan said here +1 King_David Jul 2014 #73
Appreciate your attitude. timdog44 Jul 2014 #74
Are you aware of why I responded in that manner? Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #93
To be honest with you timdog44 Aug 2014 #96
Archbishop Tutu and Nelson Mandela disagree with you Larkspur Jul 2014 #52
Nope. Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #79
He may not have been explicit but he never corrected Arafat's use of it to describe their shared Larkspur Jul 2014 #88
Israel has occupied Palestine and systematically stolen Palestinian land, Maedhros Jul 2014 #81
Bullshit map Shaktimaan Jul 2014 #82
OK, then. Consider only the West Bank. Maedhros Jul 2014 #89
if you want maps .... Israeli Jul 2014 #83
Thanks for all the links King_David Jul 2014 #86
I am still wondering if this is Apartheid, ethnic cleansing, genocide, or massacre. 4now Jul 2014 #94
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