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OnyxCollie

(9,958 posts)
19. Damn straight.
Wed Aug 29, 2012, 10:14 AM
Aug 2012

Last edited Wed Aug 29, 2012, 01:34 PM - Edit history (6)

I'm not falling over myself to buy anyone's account, whether it be the Obama administration or this alleged SEAL.

I'd like to hear from the Pakistani doctor who, with the aid of the CIA, set up a fake vaccination service to collect DNA from bin Laden's family.

The guy the Pakistanis view as a traitor. I'd like to hear his account.

((I think this is kinda important, since we don't have a body or pictures. All we have is the Obama administration saying, "We got his DNA. Trust us. He's dead." And since that contradicts Benazir Bhutto's (who was assassinated) claim that bin Laden was dead already, I'm skeptical.))

I think a few paragraphs from Cass Sunstein's (current administrator for the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs) article on conspiracy theories is apropos.

Rumors and speculation. Of course it is necessary to specify how, exactly,
conspiracy theories begin..
Some such theories seem to bubble up spontaneously,
appearing roughly simultaneously in many different social networks; others are initiated
and spread, quite intentionally, by conspiracy entrepreneurs who profit directly or
indirectly from propagating their theories.
An example in the latter category is the
French author Thierry Meyssan, whose book “9/11: The Big Lie” became a bestseller and
a sensation for its claims that the Pentagon explosion on 9/11 was caused by a missile,
fired as the opening salvo of a coup d’etat by the military-industrial complex, rather than
by American Airlines Flight 77. Some conspiracy entrepreneurs are entirely sincere;
others are interested in money or power, or in achieving some general social goal.
Still,
even for conspiracy theories put about by conspiracy entrepreneurs, the key question is
why some theories take hold while many more do not, and vanish into obscurity.

Whenever a bad event has occurred, rumors and speculation are inevitable. Most
people are not able to know, on the basis of personal or direct knowledge, why an
airplane crashed, or why a leader was assassinated, or why a terrorist attack succeeded.
In
the aftermath of such an event, numerous speculations will be offered, and some of them
will likely point to some kind of conspiracy. To some people, those speculations will
seem plausible, perhaps because they provide a suitable outlet for outrage and blame,
perhaps because the speculation fits well with other deeply rooted beliefs that they hold.
Terrible events produce outrage, and when people are outraged, they are all the more
likely to attribute those events to intentional action.
In addition, antecedent beliefs are a
key to the success or failure of conspiracy theories. Some people would find it impossibly
jarring to think that the CIA was responsible for the assassination of a civil rights leader;
that thought would unsettle too many of their other judgments.
Others would find those
other judgments strongly supported, even confirmed, by the suggestion that the CIA was
responsible for such an assassination. Compare the case of terrorist attacks. For most
Americans, a claim that the United States government attacked its own citizens, for some
ancillary purpose, would make it impossible to hold onto a wide range of other
judgments. Clearly this point does not hold for many people in Islamic nations, for whom
it is far from jarring to believe that responsibility lies with the United States (or Israel).

Here, as elsewhere, people attempt to find some kind of equilibrium among their
assortment of beliefs,34 and acceptance or rejection of a conspiracy theory will often
depend on which of the two leads to equilibrium.
Some beliefs are also motivated, in the
sense that people are pleased to hold them or displeased to reject them.35 Acceptance (or
for that matter rejection) of a conspiracy theory is frequently motivated in that sense.

Reactions to a claim of conspiracy to assassinate a political leader, or to commit or to
allow some atrocity either domestically or abroad, are often determined by the
motivations of those who hear the claim.

~snip~

What can government do about conspiracy theories? Among the things it can do,
what should it do? We can readily imagine a series of possible responses. (1)
Government might ban conspiracy theorizing. (2) Government might impose some kind
of tax, financial or otherwise, on those who disseminate such theories. (3) Government
might itself engage in counterspeech, marshaling arguments to discredit conspiracy
theories. (4) Government might formally hire credible private parties to engage in
counterspeech. (5) Government might engage in informal communication with such
parties, encouraging them to help. Each instrument has a distinctive set of potential
effects, or costs and benefits, and each will have a place under imaginable conditions.
However, our main policy idea is that government should engage in cognitive infiltration
of the groups that produce conspiracy theories, which involves a mix of (3), (4) and (5).

I don't need to read the book now. CJCRANE Aug 2012 #1
The butler did it. n/t Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #17
No need to read it now. MrSlayer Aug 2012 #2
He got shot and killed ..... end of story Botany Aug 2012 #3
Out of curiousity: I'd like to hear those reasons. redgreenandblue Aug 2012 #4
Reason one... amerciti001 Aug 2012 #5
We have the DP Missycim Aug 2012 #7
Where would you hold him? CJCRANE Aug 2012 #8
A number of reasons Lurks Often Aug 2012 #9
On the other hand, a trial for the leaders of the national socialist party was done. redgreenandblue Aug 2012 #11
Bushco didn't bother with trials for the 9/11 masterminds CJCRANE Aug 2012 #12
Hardly a fair comparison Lurks Often Aug 2012 #46
They did the killing as heads of state treestar Aug 2012 #59
And martyrdom is not a current threat in the here and now due primarily to his death...? LanternWaste Aug 2012 #36
It's a threat, although I think Lurks Often Aug 2012 #48
I have some answers for your questions. harmonicon Aug 2012 #50
It's sad, really, OnyxCollie Aug 2012 #52
We're not going to agree Lurks Often Aug 2012 #64
"I'm not willing to risk a single American life to try someone who admitted planning 9/11." harmonicon Aug 2012 #65
Lots Lurks Often Aug 2012 #66
Well, we'll never know. harmonicon Aug 2012 #71
I agree. I can't muster up enough fuck to give a damn about mass murderers... Comrade_McKenzie Aug 2012 #10
I agree Courtesy Flush Aug 2012 #15
Bin Ladin was the General Eisenhower of the movement. MADem Aug 2012 #22
Or so we have been told. JDPriestly Aug 2012 #55
It was sufficiently organized to bring down the WTC, kill three thousand people, fuck up our lives MADem Aug 2012 #68
Agreed -- propagandist supreme and would-be organizer, but I was responding JDPriestly Aug 2012 #72
Indeed, Ike was not just a planner, either. He was Supreme Allied Commander, but he was also MADem Aug 2012 #74
Of course, I don't know how Al Qaeda was organized, but I suspect that it was JDPriestly Aug 2012 #75
Concur completely. They operate under a different paradigm. MADem Aug 2012 #76
Yes. As long as they aren't violent, they can think what they want JDPriestly Aug 2012 #77
Most certainly. There's also a difference in perspective, too, I think. MADem Aug 2012 #78
He outed himself when he wrote the book. Erose999 Aug 2012 #43
Could you please provide a list... harmonicon Aug 2012 #49
i nominate this guy arely staircase Sep 2012 #86
Right wingers claiming he should not have been shot are treestar Aug 2012 #58
You are the one "living in a fairy land" where fundamental concepts like coalition_unwilling Aug 2012 #63
If someone made up a totally fictional account and published it, JDPriestly Aug 2012 #6
Damn straight. OnyxCollie Aug 2012 #19
I'm interested in conspiracy theories because they indicate what people are thinking JDPriestly Aug 2012 #54
Re: What can government do about conspiracy theories? mallard Aug 2012 #70
the people on the ground doing recon before the raid probably have some interesting stories arely staircase Sep 2012 #81
You and Rand Paul. OnyxCollie Sep 2012 #84
hopefully we can cut a deal to secure is freedom arely staircase Sep 2012 #85
depends on the credibility of the authors Enrique Aug 2012 #30
Who knows what the administration was told. JDPriestly Aug 2012 #56
Yep. This should be taken with a grain of salt. harmonicon Aug 2012 #51
Treason Puppyjive Aug 2012 #13
"no respect for his commander and chief" is not the legal definition of treason Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #18
No American troops fought in Libya. CJCRANE Aug 2012 #23
What about all the bombs we dropped? Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #25
The fact is there were no American boots on the ground CJCRANE Aug 2012 #27
No, the point the poster was making was about unnecessary war Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #29
That was a NATO effort CJCRANE Aug 2012 #31
This just gets ever more ludicrous Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #32
You're forgetting that the US is part of NATO and the UN CJCRANE Aug 2012 #35
If it's suddenly cool to play World Police just say so. Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #37
So "boots in the air" don't count? Erose999 Aug 2012 #41
Sigh. PavePusher Aug 2012 #42
ask qaddafy arely staircase Sep 2012 #87
The hell they didn't! knitter4democracy Sep 2012 #89
I imagine the answer is predicated on who is asked LanternWaste Aug 2012 #38
But was Libya a national security threat to the US, its allies or interests? Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #39
for that matter, has the US invaded another nation since WW2 that was a threat.... olddad56 Aug 2012 #45
I guess it depends on Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #47
Actually, treason is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. JDPriestly Aug 2012 #57
It's nice to image UBLs compatriots reading the book Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2012 #60
I see not reason to be upset about the book other than JDPriestly Aug 2012 #73
The president is not the sovereign, does not embody the sovereignty burnsei sensei Aug 2012 #20
Firstly, it's "Commander-in-Chief". PavePusher Aug 2012 #40
SEAL book raises questions about bin Laden's death, really what questions are those? 4bucksagallon Aug 2012 #14
Re: "... just the fact that he is dead is good enough for me." mallard Aug 2012 #69
Someone holds gun to your head Herlong Sep 2012 #83
The military needs to STFU SCVDem Aug 2012 #16
I got the impression it's the media doing the "ooh, different details! omgcontroversy!" thing Posteritatis Aug 2012 #24
When I first heard this book burnsei sensei Aug 2012 #21
Most media-circus stuff tends to have a book announced within a few months lately Posteritatis Aug 2012 #26
Who gives a fuck glacierbay Aug 2012 #28
You live by the sword magic59 Aug 2012 #33
As long as it's permanent I don't really care how he got in to that condition. 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #34
My thought exactly. He is dead and that is all we should care about. n/t RebelOne Aug 2012 #53
yeah, however it went down, at least it had a happy ending arely staircase Sep 2012 #80
"raising questions as to whether the terror mastermind presented a clear threat " Trillo Aug 2012 #44
Swiftboating warrprayer Aug 2012 #61
Any Genuine Navy SEAL Mr.Bill Aug 2012 #62
Bin Laden deserved it. End of story. nt AverageJoe90 Aug 2012 #67
well, either way he is dead and that is what really counts. arely staircase Sep 2012 #79
Wait. This is the guy who wanted kill us? bin Laden? Herlong Sep 2012 #82
Raises questions? SoapBox Sep 2012 #88
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