Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
27. Perhaps I was unclear
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 01:56 PM
Aug 2016

Let me say I am not against autonomous vehicles; based on the available empirical evidence, they will probably lower accident rates significantly and and improve our lives in major ways. No; I am after something else.

My first point is rather that, at least in computing, we have well developed models for reasoning about both the opportunities and limitations of the technology, and we have to accept both to maximize the benefits and minimize the problems that can stem from its adoption. This theory informs us there will always be unanticipated behavior in all sufficiently complex systems -- this is inherent in the complexity of these systems, and not just due to sloth or inattention or inexperience or negligence or whatever. Airplanes still crash; trains still derail; nuclear power plants still experience meltdowns, even with the most careful considerations and procedures in place.

My second point is this implies that there will always be some risk of harm to the human beings using a new technology, and so our society needs a discussion to reach a consensus about the cost-versus-benefits trade-offs around this technology. We have obviously reached something of a consensus for human driven vehicles, as we accept 30,000+ deaths each year from automobile, as well as much higher injury numbers and huge dollar amounts in property destruction, to reap the benefits this form of mobility gives us.

As an example, when vehicles do become fully autonomous, then it seems unlikely that passengers can be responsible for the accidents that inevitably will occur. So does this mean owners of these vehicles don't need collision insurance -- any liability falls upon the manufacturer? Most of us would probably like this, but what about for a situation which no one could reasonably anticipate? So maybe this technology won't be economically viable unless liability is spread around the ecosystem more broadly? We can anticipate that manufacturers are likely to prefer a model based around shedding liability for collisions to the wider ecosystem, and will squeal like greased pigs unless they get their way.

As a second example we can expect that firmware running in these futuristic vehicles will be vulnerable to malware (firmware in existing vehicles already suffer from this issue), as the engineering approach being adopted across the automotive industry is closer to that used in the commercial software development than avionics. If we want to lessen the malware threat then we probably need the automotive industry to change its basic engineering approach, but this will lead to higher costs. Would we accept higher costs to reduce the risk of ransomware interrupting our cross-country trip to demand 100 Bitcoins or face death? Probably. But how much additional cost are we willing to accept to substantially reduce malware attacks against our vehicle?

In our culture we tend to think about innovation from either a Utopian or a Luddite perspective. Manufacturers usually embrace the Utopian position, to maximize their markets, while the Luddites tend to react against social injustices arising from technology whose advocates failed to give even cursory consideration to the broader implications. I hope we can avoid both extremes.

I don't know what to think about all this. montana_hazeleyes Aug 2016 #1
This message was self-deleted by its author MichiganVote Aug 2016 #2
200-300 miles a night in some of SE Michigan's worse snows! FrodosPet Aug 2016 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author MichiganVote Aug 2016 #4
are you saying the average moron would drive better Fred Drum Aug 2016 #21
They simply don't understand Americans bucolic_frolic Aug 2016 #5
You said it. tazkcmo Aug 2016 #6
Imagine the lawsuits if one is at fault in a wreck. Imagine one being hacked, 7962 Aug 2016 #9
The automaker is on the hook in this proposal. MADem Aug 2016 #14
please, fuck with an autonomous car Fred Drum Aug 2016 #22
No doubt, the same was said by hose and buggy drivers of Ransom E. Olds and Thomas B. Jeffery LanternWaste Aug 2016 #32
Transposing time periods and technologies bucolic_frolic Aug 2016 #33
They'll eventually be much safer statistically than human driven cars madville Aug 2016 #7
For a while the studies will be useless. Igel Aug 2016 #25
Right! That won't work where I live. longship Aug 2016 #8
Post removed Post removed Aug 2016 #23
great news! nobody will have to get drivers licenseses anymore. if one class does not need them msongs Aug 2016 #10
Some central issues? jessewalkeratpdx Aug 2016 #11
To err is human. Human drivers have bugs: perceptual, cognitive, ethical, bacterial, viral, ... nt Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2016 #12
In the near term, though, you'll still have to "drive" your self-driving car. MADem Aug 2016 #13
i can crawl Fred Drum Aug 2016 #17
Perhaps I was unclear jessewalkeratpdx Aug 2016 #27
I rather think everything you've mentioned is why this law is desired, you see. MADem Aug 2016 #29
Welcome to DU! There are very few here who understand theory of computation and it's relevance. bananas Aug 2016 #35
This is definitely one of the best posts I have seen on the subject FrodosPet Aug 2016 #37
Sure, let's test them there. Helen Borg Aug 2016 #15
WHAT .. humans are allowed to drive Fred Drum Aug 2016 #16
We already have them in Michigan. JustABozoOnThisBus Aug 2016 #18
you're already too old Fred Drum Aug 2016 #19
"right now every state requires a law to have a driver" Enrique Aug 2016 #20
This law is for automaker research. MADem Aug 2016 #30
Well, that's going to freak out the wife, for sure nt MrScorpio Aug 2016 #24
It is Michican, what could possibly go wrong. olddad56 Aug 2016 #26
What could possibly go wrong? LiberalLovinLug Aug 2016 #28
Said the makers of horse carriages in 1905. former9thward Aug 2016 #31
Touche LiberalLovinLug Aug 2016 #34
The Simple Solution to Traffic MowCowWhoHow III Aug 2016 #36
Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Michigan may soon allow s...»Reply #27