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lapucelle

(18,369 posts)
70. Article content:
Fri Nov 24, 2017, 07:37 PM
Nov 2017

Last edited Fri Nov 24, 2017, 09:09 PM - Edit history (3)

"The Hill interviewed nearly a dozen prominent Democrats to find out who has captured the party’s attention in recent months and who has fallen out of favor."

Mea culpa: According to The Hill,

Fewer than 12 "Prominent Democrats"= Democrats


The original link was to a secondary source That relied on a publication famous for its "inspired story lines" based on sketchy "data". The Hill based its opinion on speculation of fewer than a dozen anonymous Democrats and the sourced assertion that "there’s also no clear standout in the potential field".

Newsweek then repeated a click bait headline not supported by facts:

"Bernie Sanders will Face Donald Trump in 2020 Election, Democrats Say"
.

Hopefully the young writer of the piece originally linked to (Nicole Gooodkind) did not also pen Newsweek's misleading headline. It is unfortunate that she relied on a largely unsourced story at The Hill and the further musings of progressive strategist Brad Bannon in writing her story.
Biden or Bernie would be great. We are going to need an older, trusted, stable figure. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #1
Old white men oberliner Nov 2017 #3
They can choose a rising star running mate. After living through the Nixon years, we are going to Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #6
I think we should nominate a woman oberliner Nov 2017 #10
I totally love the idea of a POC female, but I keep thinking about the Nixon aftermath. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #20
Long way to go oberliner Nov 2017 #23
If you are old enough to remember the Nixon era, you well know how very bad things are going to get. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #26
Enjoyed the discussion btw you and Oberliner.. pangaia Nov 2017 #49
I agree, I think it will be worse than Nixon and that was bad. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #53
And we ain't even halfway through this yet. eom DonViejo Nov 2017 #131
Yes it is early days. We are just in the beginning of it all. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #132
From what I have read, and heard from assorted talking heads... DonViejo Nov 2017 #139
Yes I would agree, 25% sounds about right. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #143
I cannot see him talked into getting out of office... DonViejo Nov 2017 #145
I think it would require very delicate handling, but Trump could be bought off and Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #146
You may be right thegoose Nov 2017 #301
Some members of congress have been bought off by the Russians too. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #306
Sanders would not be stabilizing. eom Control-Z Nov 2017 #93
Why do you think Sanders would not be stabilizing? Sophia4 Nov 2017 #107
I love Bernie and I am older. I think he would be stabilizing. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #133
I am old and I dont see Bernie as being a positive attribute for 2020. dhol82 Nov 2017 #157
What do you find negative about Bernie? ClarendonDem Nov 2017 #303
First and foremost, in 2020 he will be 79. dhol82 Nov 2017 #305
Say Kamala Harris has a strong showing in the Primary but Bernie gets the nod madville Nov 2017 #9
I would prefer to see a woman at the top of the ticket oberliner Nov 2017 #13
Would love to see that!! InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #148
This old white man agrees. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #11
Exactly. We've had enough of 70+ white men. Wwcd Nov 2017 #36
I agree with you in general, but it is going to be a shit storm when Trump Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #40
Agree. But Bernie Sanders is an extremely divisive person. Wwcd Nov 2017 #47
I see Bernie if a very different light. But I understand there are hard Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #51
Thank you. Wwcd Nov 2017 #59
Is it really Bernie who divided the Democratic Party? Sophia4 Nov 2017 #113
Exactly LiberalLovinLug Nov 2017 #258
Divisive, Lacking persona to heal,Unaswered Questions?, Hiding answers to hard questions, juxtaposed Nov 2017 #78
Who listens to RW Radio? Wwcd Nov 2017 #81
Your points are what is spit every day on R/W radio even the $11 million B/S juxtaposed Nov 2017 #86
I don't see Bernie as at all divisive. Sophia4 Nov 2017 #108
Why the ageism?! InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #149
The Al Franken thread needs more posts... n/m bagelsforbreakfast Nov 2017 #114
At the least, need youth and diversity at the VP Roland99 Nov 2017 #230
No they wouldn't be, and I doubt either will run, but if they do, I would bet money they wouldn't still_one Nov 2017 #12
There are plenty of experienced Dems in their 50's and 60's. We don't need pnwmom Nov 2017 #38
Who do you like? Sophia4 Nov 2017 #115
I haven't settled on anyone yet, but I like Kamala Harris, Adam Schiff, pnwmom Nov 2017 #117
I like Bernie, but I would be surprised if he really runs again. Sophia4 Nov 2017 #120
I like him Bernie too... I'm guessin' he's going to bow out gracefully... InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #152
Welcome to DU!! I am not a Bernie fan but I fully expect him to run again. StevieM Nov 2017 #169
No and no NastyRiffraff Nov 2017 #45
+1. obnoxiousdrunk Nov 2017 #69
Biden and Bernie do not have what is needed delisen Nov 2017 #76
Bernie weak on tRump?! You're kiddin', right? InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #153
Can we please have someone who hasn't already run & lost a primary before? Please? nt Tarheel_Dem Nov 2017 #92
Did you say that when Hillary decided to run? Sophia4 Nov 2017 #116
No I didn't say it when Hillary decided to run. I'm saying it now. That's my privilege. Tarheel_Dem Nov 2017 #126
Oh god no. He'd never bring the blue wave we need with him. bettyellen Nov 2017 #2
Agreed. I'd vote for Bernie over tRump, but not happily. Nt MANative Nov 2017 #8
Really?!!! Are you serious? tomp Nov 2017 #32
Except Bernie isn't a "dem" and his "bros" did no favors for our candidate in 2016. MANative Nov 2017 #63
Mine would be none at all. charlyvi Nov 2017 #71
that puts us not on the same page.... tomp Nov 2017 #87
Wrong charlyvi Nov 2017 #136
I never said he defined the left, so don't put words in my mouth. tomp Nov 2017 #206
But Trump won't be availible to run in 2020. So who is our Dem running against Wwcd Nov 2017 #84
we'll see. nt tomp Nov 2017 #207
Yep, he'd be a terrible President. I wouldn't be happy to vote for him either. stevenleser Nov 2017 #164
I am not a Sanders fan. Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #189
Bernie is good at whipping up crowds. He'd be a disaster as President. kcr Nov 2017 #265
Wow, just wow (nt) ghostsinthemachine Nov 2017 #205
Where was that wave in 2016? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #14
Too many fair weather Dems fell for Russian propaganda and suppressed the vote. Not getting fooled bettyellen Nov 2017 #18
Too manu "occasional" Democrats fell for Trump's racism as well. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #29
If they fell into support for Trump they are not ever liberal. Even if some don't like it, being bettyellen Nov 2017 #68
Yup. Agschmid Nov 2017 #74
Exactly and. Too many were easy marks for delisen Nov 2017 #67
Several people I know in real life were sharing Russian propaganda- they still have no shame about bettyellen Nov 2017 #73
I agree sarah FAILIN Nov 2017 #15
He makes me cringe. Its the Rape Fantasy book that makes me feel so. Wwcd Nov 2017 #50
He's proven his affinity to destroying the Dem Party over damning the RW. Wwcd Nov 2017 #37
Cue the Bernie haters dembotoz Nov 2017 #4
He created them. Wwcd Nov 2017 #64
+1000 charlyvi Nov 2017 #72
++++++Exactly!! R B Garr Nov 2017 #118
Seriously! InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2017 #150
I dont hate Bernie. I just want a Democrat in 2020 Lil Missy Nov 2017 #260
Yep the Bernie haters dembotoz Nov 2017 #263
Year of the Woman is a likelier scenario at this point. L. Coyote Nov 2017 #5
I agree there will be no equivocation about women's rights with what's going on now. WE are the base bettyellen Nov 2017 #16
That'll be the day. PubliusEnigma Nov 2017 #7
It would be a Putin and Trump dream come true. L. Coyote Nov 2017 #19
Post removed Post removed Nov 2017 #17
Boom Me. Nov 2017 #58
We've yet to have an answer & the one they gave is full of holes. Wwcd Nov 2017 #79
OMG...Can't Wait Me. Nov 2017 #83
Sean Hannity juxtaposed Nov 2017 #82
Cute Me. Nov 2017 #85
Pretty doubtful, IMO, but the pundits love to stir shit The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2017 #21
Yup, they sure have been keeping that fight going. Wwcd Nov 2017 #39
I don't hate Bernie awesomerwb1 Nov 2017 #22
Wow, a dozen say mcar Nov 2017 #24
It's The Hill after all... sheshe2 Nov 2017 #88
Yes. But shame on Newsweek for that ridiculous headline mcar Nov 2017 #98
I'm curious to see if the GOP can mount a primary challenge against Trump madville Nov 2017 #25
I think Putin hacked the GOP primaries. If they can get a clean vote this time, who might beat Trump Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #27
Never happen. cwydro Nov 2017 #28
And all the pundits said Trump would never Butterflylady Nov 2017 #41
Sadly, my mother predicted his win. cwydro Nov 2017 #44
I love Bernie, but I'd really like to see the next generation of Dems up at bat. Vinca Nov 2017 #30
How about we try a true progressive over a centrist... tomp Nov 2017 #34
He's not as Progressive as he claims to be. Wwcd Nov 2017 #42
I would so love a real progressive. I am sick of GOP lite. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #57
Who is it you are calling "GOP lite?" sheshe2 Nov 2017 #90
Look at some of the Dems who fought Obama on healthcare and other issues. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #94
So you are condemning Democrats with a broad brush...on a Democratic board? sheshe2 Nov 2017 #99
And they are gone...replaced by Republicans but are we better off without them in the minority.? Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #268
Kind of like "neo liberal" mcar Nov 2017 #101
GOP lite might be the "progressive Republicans" lapucelle Nov 2017 #103
To young to remember McGovern? GulfCoast66 Nov 2017 #96
Nixon beat McGovern. How'd that work out? Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #125
You make my point GulfCoast66 Nov 2017 #135
"I'm a dreamer and I'm not the only one." Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #138
Respect that and agree GulfCoast66 Nov 2017 #156
Good tune...but our country has lurched right...not unlike the 90's when Clinton stopped 16 years Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #269
Gosh a progressive lost 45 years ago? Kentonio Nov 2017 #280
I was mainly responding to the complaint we had never run a progressive GulfCoast66 Nov 2017 #292
Yikes, looks by the responses being a progressive is not popular ........ sigh. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #123
I am a progressive...I simply don't agree with you...it is better to win...we don't have the Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #272
I'm sick of centrists, too, but surely we've got some progressives under 75. Vinca Nov 2017 #140
Sanders support is very weak. He is only +6 against Trump in polling right now. Anyone with Sanders stevenleser Nov 2017 #166
I'm finished with the male candidates delisen Nov 2017 #75
Trump won't be running in 2020. n/t NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #31
I predict that he will. He can't stand not to be the center of attention. StevieM Nov 2017 #208
It's not up to him. NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #216
Why would tanking poll numbers be a problem when they are clearly fake numbers ginned up StevieM Nov 2017 #218
The PTB in the GOP ... NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #222
What I am saying is that GOP voters who like Trump will not believe that they are in the minority. StevieM Nov 2017 #224
What difference does it make ... NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #235
I certainly appreciate all the work you are putting into your very thoughtful posts. StevieM Nov 2017 #242
... NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #249
I thought I addressed the question you posed when I said that Trump has a floor IMO. StevieM Nov 2017 #278
Think of it this way NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #302
Well I certainly feel guilty for not putting as much thought or effort into my posts as StevieM Nov 2017 #307
The GOP can keep him ... NanceGreggs Nov 2017 #308
Neither will be running in 2020 TheCowsCameHome Nov 2017 #33
I predict that Trump and Sanders will both run. Biden too. StevieM Nov 2017 #209
Harvard-Harris on line poll??? sheshe2 Nov 2017 #35
Haaha..really! There it is again. Been proven skewed many times & yet if its all ya got I guess Wwcd Nov 2017 #46
That poll keeps coming up and has been debunked. sheshe2 Nov 2017 #55
That's all we should be looking at now. Without a 2018 super win, Wwcd Nov 2017 #61
It's incredible that they would actually publish that as if it was a regular, scientifically StevieM Nov 2017 #110
I predict... Mike Nelson Nov 2017 #43
I predict the exact opposite. StevieM Nov 2017 #170
... LexVegas Nov 2017 #48
Neither get the red out Nov 2017 #52
Well, let's just do away with primaries then. alarimer Nov 2017 #54
Boy...Talk About Killing The Incentive To Vote Me. Nov 2017 #56
According to The Hill lapucelle Nov 2017 #60
article title: How Dem insiders rank the 2020 contenders............ riversedge Nov 2017 #65
Article content: lapucelle Nov 2017 #70
++++++++ R B Garr Nov 2017 #121
All sheshe2 Nov 2017 #141
Why. The Hill talked to fewer than 12 anonymous Democrats lapucelle Nov 2017 #233
Good Lord no! PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2017 #62
Ummm... sheshe2 Nov 2017 #142
I know. And that sort of concerns me. PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2017 #151
The two potential candidates I like the most, Tom Steyer and Jay Inslee, are both over 60. StevieM Nov 2017 #212
E Warren will be over 71 in 2020. lapucelle Nov 2017 #154
Yes, And Bernie Sanders, whose name is at the top of this thread, PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2017 #160
I can't imagine that HRC or John Kerry will run again. But I also cannot imagine that StevieM Nov 2017 #211
oy librechik Nov 2017 #66
Starting the primary wars a bit early, are we? TreasonousBastard Nov 2017 #77
Works for me. jalan48 Nov 2017 #80
Yes, because Democratic strategists are always such worthy prognosticators. RelativelyJones Nov 2017 #89
. ismnotwasm Nov 2017 #91
+1 nt Skidmore Nov 2017 #106
The Russians would absolutely love that. MrsCoffee Nov 2017 #95
As for me, I will only vote for a member of the Democratic Party GulfCoast66 Nov 2017 #97
Hillary voters will not vote for Sanders and he will need them. TRUMP 8 years it looks like nt Tavarious Jackson Nov 2017 #100
Wait? What? Those who begged, asked, and demanded unity won't unify.... aikoaiko Nov 2017 #173
There was never unity nt Tavarious Jackson Nov 2017 #175
If Sanders was the nominee, I would vote for him of course...but I won't vote for him Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #270
Jeebus, I wish these prognosticators would take a walk, or eat a delicious cupcake before they.... Tarheel_Dem Nov 2017 #102
And He Would Throw The Democratic Party Under The Bus Along the Way... TomCADem Nov 2017 #104
I voted for Sanders in last year's primary .. ananda Nov 2017 #105
+1000 I walked precincts for Bernie in 2015/2016 when the temperature was in single digits. LongTomH Nov 2017 #112
LOLOLOL Maven Nov 2017 #109
No, nearly a dozen. murielm99 Nov 2017 #177
Ha!! :-D NurseJackie Nov 2017 #187
Have we run out of Democrats? traladeda Nov 2017 #111
I can name half a dozen strong up-and-coming Dems in California alone Hekate Nov 2017 #129
I would be very surprised to see either of them nominated DFW Nov 2017 #119
Wish we had a Justin Trudeau Lunabell Nov 2017 #122
*This* Democrat says no. Stinky The Clown Nov 2017 #124
Darn, I have to wash my hair that night. Lil Missy Nov 2017 #127
Oh for the love of Pete Hekate Nov 2017 #128
No, just no n/t riverwalker Nov 2017 #130
Done with the old... Historic NY Nov 2017 #134
This is not because Bernie is some attractive magnetic figure. "It's his policies, stupid." elehhhhna Nov 2017 #137
NEWSWEEK (quoting a dubious source that "polled" fewer than 12 anonymous people): lapucelle Nov 2017 #144
I hope not. PragmaticLiberal Nov 2017 #147
are there any Bots posting in this thread? please let me know juxtaposed Nov 2017 #155
Well THAT is NOT going to happen! democratisphere Nov 2017 #158
"The survey, conducted by the Hill," that also commissions those monthly Harvard-Harris polls ucrdem Nov 2017 #159
Bernie will be the next POTUS. ZX86 Nov 2017 #161
OK Me. Nov 2017 #162
May I join you? Tarheel_Dem Nov 2017 #163
Please Do Me. Nov 2017 #167
Me too, me. sheshe2 Nov 2017 #190
It's More Than Laughable Me. Nov 2017 #193
And by "...a whole lot of Dems" you mean the vocal but tiny minority ZX86 Nov 2017 #195
Those ratings are among voters in Vermont only, NOT "the nation". Why not give us the link? George II Nov 2017 #197
I Mean Those Me. Nov 2017 #198
Where is the link? sheshe2 Nov 2017 #214
It really doesn't matter whether you personally accept Bernie's popularity or not. ZX86 Nov 2017 #234
Your tip could be reversed, too. George II Nov 2017 #293
Bernie's popularity is no laughing matter. ZX86 Nov 2017 #165
Sez You Me. Nov 2017 #168
Too bad they don't vote lunamagica Nov 2017 #182
Don't you mean when they're allowed to vote? ZX86 Nov 2017 #183
GMAB! If anytjing, rhis affected Hillary more than Sanders. There's no way NY would have voted for lunamagica Nov 2017 #194
You can't have both ways. ZX86 Nov 2017 #225
Who is having it both ways? Hillary beat Sanders by 4 million votes, lunamagica Nov 2017 #251
2016 primaries are history. ZX86 Nov 2017 #256
Mark my words. Bernard Sanders will NEVER be president lunamagica Nov 2017 #257
Vermont doesnt have free health care. R B Garr Nov 2017 #283
Nope. Michelle Obama and Joe Biden kick his ass in a popularity contest. MrsCoffee Nov 2017 #291
If he was that popular...he would have been the Democratic nominee. Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #196
The same can be said for Hilliary in the previous general election. ZX86 Nov 2017 #227
She won the popular vote by more than three million votes. That's popular lunamagica Nov 2017 #252
That is true...in fact I supported Pres. Obama and worked for his campaign...it was a much closer Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #277
There are a number of politicians who can do so. George II Nov 2017 #200
Well they better hurry up and get on the stick. ZX86 Nov 2017 #226
Wanna bet? $100 to your favorite charity. Adrahil Nov 2017 #171
I do MFM008 Nov 2017 #176
The most popular politician will be the next POTUS. ZX86 Nov 2017 #180
If it is as simple as that then why??? sheshe2 Nov 2017 #191
Then by all means... sheshe2 Nov 2017 #215
I don't post links Bernie's popularity polls ZX86 Nov 2017 #228
So... sheshe2 Nov 2017 #231
I post links all the time. ZX86 Nov 2017 #236
Ah. sheshe2 Nov 2017 #239
There are 28 million Americans that Obamacare has left behind. ZX86 Nov 2017 #241
Ah. sheshe2 Nov 2017 #246
I'm not a Republican. ZX86 Nov 2017 #250
Where do you get this "most popular politician in the country" stuff? George II Nov 2017 #232
Common knowledge. ZX86 Nov 2017 #237
Common to whom? sheshe2 Nov 2017 #247
People who read news articles. ZX86 Nov 2017 #254
The Harris Poll, commissioned and paid for by THe Hill lapucelle Nov 2017 #238
I don't believe Sen. Sanders is the most popular politician...I see no evidence of this. Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #309
Bernie may be the next president, we'll have to wait and see, but it is crazy to think that StevieM Nov 2017 #220
The last POTUS was a Black man. ZX86 Nov 2017 #229
No he won't. He doesn't have enough support..and will only act as a spoiler if he runs regardless Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #274
Ive heard enough about the millionayuhs and billionayuhs and the one puhcent on Wall Shtreet VOX Nov 2017 #294
How about Jay Inslee (gov of WA) and Eric Schneiderman? jmowreader Nov 2017 #172
I love Jay Inslee and I think he should run. But it looks like he might sit it out. StevieM Nov 2017 #221
He looks good, but in our party a candidate has to have lived a completely pure life jmowreader Nov 2017 #223
I for one would welcome a Sanders presidency, but I hope a new generation steps forward. aikoaiko Nov 2017 #174
I feel the same way mvd Nov 2017 #178
Doubt It DarthDem Nov 2017 #179
To the writer: Please send me what you are smoking hibbing Nov 2017 #181
lol! Quayblue Nov 2017 #240
This article feels like someone trying to bring back avocado appliances BoneyardDem Nov 2017 #184
Good One Me. Nov 2017 #203
hope for Ds 50 people say they will run to make Rs spread thin & spend billions "donor money" Sunlei Nov 2017 #185
Works for me. Go Bernie! Kentonio Nov 2017 #186
Neither Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders will win the Democratic primary...given the divisive effect of Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #188
If he did, that would mean the party he was so quick to disassociate himself with after the still_one Nov 2017 #201
I am hoping he will be told he will not run as a Democrats...we may lose if he runs at all, Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #275
No thanks. sheshe2 Nov 2017 #192
If he is the one nominated I will vote for him Generic Other Nov 2017 #199
Don't we have anyone older doc03 Nov 2017 #202
Biden is a year younger. I expect Biden and Sanders both to run. StevieM Nov 2017 #219
Maybe figuratively speaking loyalsister Nov 2017 #204
Excellant analysis. ZX86 Nov 2017 #248
Does all caps make it truer, or just louder? n/t pnwmom Nov 2017 #210
Uh, he'll have to win the primary first, and MineralMan Nov 2017 #213
That is my thinking as well. Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #276
Allow me to help you there. Kentonio Nov 2017 #281
See, I know that. However, I don't think so. MineralMan Nov 2017 #286
yeah sure.. lol JHan Nov 2017 #217
This is not going to be reality. herding cats Nov 2017 #243
Because Democrats have no viable candidates in their 40s? doodsaq Nov 2017 #244
I have an idea. Why don't we focus all of our energy on 2018 instead of 2020? Yavin4 Nov 2017 #245
So he is gonna be a Democrat again doc03 Nov 2017 #253
He agreed to remain a Democrat but didn't so I honestly don't think he can run as a Democrat... Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #273
Bugger Billy Jingo Nov 2017 #255
New blood in their 40s mshasta Nov 2017 #259
I'd prefer an actual Democrat running xmas74 Nov 2017 #261
Just the suggestion MontanaMama Nov 2017 #262
Lolz...no. JNelson6563 Nov 2017 #264
What a terrific way to guarantee another 4 years of Republican White House! Orrex Nov 2017 #266
Can we stop with the white man savior crap all american girl Nov 2017 #267
Amen and hallelujah! NurseJackie Nov 2017 #271
I'm blushing right now all american girl Nov 2017 #279
Bravo Me. Nov 2017 #284
By all means GaryCnf Nov 2017 #289
I have no idea what you are talking about all american girl Nov 2017 #290
And I'm talking about a future GaryCnf Nov 2017 #295
The thing that cost us the most radical noodle Nov 2017 #296
That doesn't explain GaryCnf Nov 2017 #297
There were a great deal of people who were vulnerable to that radical noodle Nov 2017 #298
As opposed to, GaryCnf Nov 2017 #299
For instance (?) n/t radical noodle Nov 2017 #300
Post removed Post removed Nov 2017 #282
Interesting to see people are still fighting thus xmas74 Nov 2017 #285
interesting, yes. depressing. sad. stlsaxman Nov 2017 #310
No problem. xmas74 Nov 2017 #312
What about Warren? Kennedy? xmas74 Nov 2017 #287
Coronation? Let the people decide JCMach1 Nov 2017 #288
They only polled like 12 Democratic insiders TreeStarsForever Nov 2017 #304
Eh....no Proud Liberal Dem Nov 2017 #311
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