General Discussion

muriel_volestrangler

(101,399 posts)

87. Why are you 'certain' of that?

Tue Aug 26, 2014, 08:13 PM

Aug 2014

Rome, in both the Republic and Empire, did have an extensive bureaucracy and legal system, and state authority of legendary power.

We should be talking about the totality of human history, though, not just one corner with a restricted date range. Western Europe does after all, take some of its legal ideas from the Romans. Latin remained understood, and so the Roman land laws were known. I see no evidence that the concept of land ownership was invented from scratch at some 'Early Modern' point, and it just happened to match the concept that had been sitting in the copies of Roman laws all those years.

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On Marx and Leftism [View all] BainsBane Aug 2014 OP

I concur with his analysis of capitalism leftstreet Aug 2014 #1

That capitalism is exploitative by nature BainsBane Aug 2014 #4

Right. That came from his analysis leftstreet Aug 2014 #6

It is an ideology that frames how one understands society BainsBane Aug 2014 #9

Right leftstreet Aug 2014 #11

OK, I think we can more or less agree on that. Now what? Adrahil Aug 2014 #106

I've read The Communist Manifesto a few times and do support some of his principles. TexasTowelie Aug 2014 #2

You don't think one conveys that? BainsBane Aug 2014 #3

Check my ETA. TexasTowelie Aug 2014 #7

I see BainsBane Aug 2014 #8

When Marx and his followers call for the 'elimination of private property,' it is VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #51

Private property is itself a creation of capitalism BainsBane Aug 2014 #56

Private property was around way before capitalism started muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #61

That is not true BainsBane Aug 2014 #65

As an example, the Roman Republic had ownership of land muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #70

That could well be BainsBane Aug 2014 #84

Why are you 'certain' of that? muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #87

Do you know of documentation of land sales BainsBane Aug 2014 #100

yes: muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #102

ummm... the concept of a free holding yeoman or franklin pre-exists the Early-Modern period.... Adrahil Aug 2014 #98

holding land is not owning land. There is a key distinction, as I already made clear. BainsBane Aug 2014 #101

Medieval free-holders DID own their land. Adrahil Aug 2014 #107

Thank you for making that distinguishment between private and personal property. TexasTowelie Aug 2014 #57

Wow, this is a big topic to get into here and maybe not well-suited to this forum. Here's what I can VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #64

Thanks for the explanation. TexasTowelie Aug 2014 #86

I don't think "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is a nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #5

What is your issue with it, if you're willing to share? Shankapotomus Aug 2014 #12

I said it's NOT a fundamentally bad idea. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #15

lol Sorry nt Shankapotomus Aug 2014 #18

That's okay. Didn't mean to snap at you. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #19

No worries Shankapotomus Aug 2014 #45

It's never worked when tried. 3rdwaydem Aug 2014 #13

Depends what you mean by "tried." Many would argue that most self-proclaimed Communist regimes nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #16

because its not realistic. There's no legitimate provision for individual CAG Aug 2014 #20

Very well put CAG! 3rdwaydem Aug 2014 #23

/ignore [n/t] Maedhros Aug 2014 #68

while I agree with what you are saying, I wonder why I don't consider myself a centrist Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2014 #25

It's not either/or. In fact, there is arguably almost no country that is purely capitalist *or* nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #44

capitalism is based on greed and explitation of labor BainsBane Aug 2014 #46

On those points I am in complete agreement with you. TexasTowelie Aug 2014 #60

If anything leads to "utter corruption and perversion" TBF Aug 2014 #52

Nonsense. The only proscription is against owning OTHER PEOPLE'S means of production eridani Aug 2014 #58

Thats just silly CAG Aug 2014 #59

What's silly about it? eridani Aug 2014 #63

and what are all of those "business partners" supposed to do for money CAG Aug 2014 #80

We've never had publicly owned banks before either eridani Aug 2014 #83

Look! Republican talking points on DU! Maedhros Aug 2014 #67

oh, for god's sake, democrats can't be capitalists now???? CAG Aug 2014 #76

I suspect Elizabeth Warren would agree with my statements, does that make CAG Aug 2014 #82

Star Trek is set in a socialist\communist milieu. (Ever see any money changing hands VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #69

I was unaware Star Trek was non-fiction and described a real-world, er, CAG Aug 2014 #77

Come on, CAG, where's your imagination? Star Trek is the 'history of the VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #79

Live long and prosper.... but don't prosper too much, you might be CAG Aug 2014 #81

Oddly enough, I was reading some commentary on the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal TexasTowelie Aug 2014 #88

Because so many Russians are clamoring for the return of the Czar. Viva VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #66

It is particularly dangerous to progressivism Puzzledtraveller Aug 2014 #91

As an idea it's fine. It's implementing it where things fall to pieces. NT Adrahil Aug 2014 #99

Like I said, nothing has to be an absolute. I just think it's a decent general principle. n/t nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #104

Well, I certainly agree with that. :) NT Adrahil Aug 2014 #105

I'm familiar with Marxism mostly through intermediaries Shankapotomus Aug 2014 #10

My overall stance is probably quite similar to yours. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #17

I think all of us have some beliefs that are far left. I would also say that I am "moderate left." 3rdwaydem Aug 2014 #24

I'm not sure what kind of support you wanted, but....... socialist_n_TN Aug 2014 #14

That's the support I wanted! BainsBane Aug 2014 #35

Hear, hear. I also voted for option #1, fwiw VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #71

Me too........ socialist_n_TN Aug 2014 #85

LOL. KG Aug 2014 #21

I think reading Marx and subsequent political economists lovemydog Aug 2014 #22

Great suggestions! BainsBane Aug 2014 #26

I had no idea this was such a literate bunch Warpy Aug 2014 #27

The responses are by nature self-selective BainsBane Aug 2014 #28

More precisely than that. Chan790 Aug 2014 #47

Well, they didn't call it the Red Scare for nothing YoungDemCA Aug 2014 #50

They were still pussyfooting around it in AP history in the mid 60s Warpy Aug 2014 #62

I put Marx in the same category as utopian fiction sarisataka Aug 2014 #29

Then you miss his major importance BainsBane Aug 2014 #30

Admittedly I have mostly read his communism writing sarisataka Aug 2014 #31

Foucault is of course enormously important BainsBane Aug 2014 #43

I respectfully disagree. lovemydog Aug 2014 #33

Good points sarisataka Aug 2014 #38

Thank you saristataka. lovemydog Aug 2014 #39

Thanks to you as well lovemydog sarisataka Aug 2014 #42

Excellent point about capitalism as based on Utopian fiction BainsBane Aug 2014 #48

Sigh. Is there anything specific in Marx' and Engels' corpus with which you VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #72

Several items sarisataka Aug 2014 #89

So much here to take issue with, one hardly knows where to start. You're right that VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #94

Very astute sarisataka Aug 2014 #103

I think I am more ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #32

What's post left? lovemydog Aug 2014 #34

Hakim Bey is probably the most famous post-left advocate. ZombieHorde Aug 2014 #36

Thank you ZH! lovemydog Aug 2014 #37

+1, post-leftism ftw. joshcryer Aug 2014 #41

I disagree with Marx on implementation, but the core ideas are sound. joshcryer Aug 2014 #40

Anyone who holds that capitalism was either naturally or historically inevitable should study more YoungDemCA Aug 2014 #49

Well, Marx himself viewed capitalism as largely inevitable and *beneficial*, although VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #73

Haven't read any Marx yet shenmue Aug 2014 #53

My ambition is to read Das Kapital in German before I die. I'm going to have VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #75

His analysis of capitalism is spot on. BaggersRDumb Aug 2014 #54

I never agree with BainsBane Codeine Aug 2014 #55

1. Cool avatar. Benton D Struckcheon Aug 2014 #74

In his 1903 tract 'What is to be Done?," Lenin argues that the VanGoghRocks Aug 2014 #78

Yes, but it's also pretty clear that Marx probably would have agreed with him. Benton D Struckcheon Aug 2014 #90

In fact Marx did write about his views on the Paris Commune - TBF Aug 2014 #93

Thanks for posting that. Benton D Struckcheon Aug 2014 #96

I have been "accused" of being a Marxist Matrosov Aug 2014 #92

Marxism is excellent at identifying serious problems. Unfortunately, it sucks at realistic solutions Tommy_Carcetti Aug 2014 #95

No option really matches my opinion.... Adrahil Aug 2014 #97