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Igel

(35,317 posts)
31. It's a useful phrase.
Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:19 PM
Jul 2014

Like "fascist," it gets redefined by people who don't bother to think about what it is.

Sure, avoiding offensive terms can be called "politically correct." Or "polite." The two don't mean the same thing, or at least don't always. In the last few decades the term's become bleached--those who originally used it don't like it and those who picked it up changed the meaning a bit.

"Semantic bleaching" is when the (denotative) meaning of a word is made fuzzier and fuzzier until it's lost. "Politically correct" had a single, rather specific meaning. It still has that meaning if you're widely read enough or in the right circles. For others it's bleached.

Originally the term went like this.

There was a policy promulgated. What's done and planned must be according to the policy. If something wasn't done according the the policy, it was automatically politically incorrect.

The policy included everything from speech codes of a sort to codes of action and opinion. On DU at election time it is forbidden to voice support for a non-Democratic candidate. You may like the Green candidate--that's your business, keep it to yourself. The politics and the policy are such that this kind of speech is incorrect. It's a mild form of politically incorrect speech, but can get you banned. "Policy correct" is probably a better phrase for it. I don't know an adjectival form for "policy" that doesn't involve coercion (which is the taking of a word that's, say, a noun and using it as a verb or adjective. To verb a noun is "coercion", to say that you use a "computer keyboard" is to coerce "computer" into being an adjective.)

It's a leftist term in origin. In Russian you can still say, without irony, that something is politicheski pravil'no or politicheski nepravil'no--politically correct or politically incorrect. Russian "politicheskii" is the adjective for "politika" (policy as well as politics--your politics are the government policies you agree with, after all).

And it got into English via the CPUSA. When Stalin was alive, you didn't criticize him. When the CPUSA or KP SSSR said to do something, it laid down the party line. That was the official policy. To say otherwise was not in accord with the stated policy and objectives of the party you were a member of or evaluated in accordance with. To disagree was politically incorrect.

When Stalin's denunciation was made public, life was interesting for KP and CP members. They'd come to work speaking praise for Comrade Stalin. When told that this was no wrong, they'd be in a quandary: What level of condemnation is appropriate? Who can be praised and sucked up to? Can I get back that recommendation I filed yesterday whole-heartedly supporting Stalin's initiative but which today might get me fired? No? Shit!

For many here, disagreeing with Obama is politically incorrect. For many here, to disagree with some facet of ideology--whether a (D) party platform plank or some tenet held by many is politically incorrect. To transgress those boundaries is to face calls for enforcement by the "party bosses," to have public criticism foisted upon you (we never used to post jury results to disgrace others), to call for samokritika (self-criticism and public repentance).

Once I was in a church that went from frowning on discommunication towards approving it. I watched one sweet woman go up to another who'd been having problems and give her a sympathetic, warm hug and a kiss, then a card expressing sympathy. She held the woman's hand and patted it, looking kindly and weepy-eyed. Five minutes later that woman with the problems was called out from the pulpit and we were told that she was disfellowshipped. The nice sweet woman went up to the woman with problems before she left the building and insisted on having the card returned, lest the minister find out about it. "You're a horrible person, how could you deceive me like that?" Sympathy was politically correct at 1:00. At 1:50, sympathy for that woman was politically incorrect. It often has nothing to do with rudeness. It has to do with following the rules as set by somebody or some group, and doing so blindly because one has to follow policy.

The word is a bad for for many places where there is no one oligarchy or autocrat that sets and dictates policy and therefore politics. DU is one of them. Work places are another. Where I work there are a lot of times when a student refuses to learn--some make sense, they have other goals; in some cases they face overwhelming problems; mostly the tuned-out students are just disinterested and see no point in anything that doesn't involve their genitals, money, socializing, or some other sort of fun. But "if a student fails, it's really the teachers that have failed" and "nobody is allowed to blame the student." To say out loud even alone with the principal that it's the student's fault in many cases is politically incorrect. Period. It's not particularly rude. It's just factual. But it violates policy and brings a rebuke, a request for self-criticism, and can lead to administrative sanction.

However, it became inappropriate to use certain language, and it wasn't just politeness. To the extent that there's peer pressure as the only "setter of policy" politeness can look about the same. But there's a difference: You are polite to a person. If I call my wife a "hunky" to her face, I'm quite possibly being rude. If I call her a "hunky" when she's nowhere to be seen, I risk having something offensive reported back to her but she's not there. There's no rudeness. That's especially true if I'm alone. But it's still "incorrect." The policy is that you never, but never, use terms that might in any circumstance give offense in the view of an observer who may, or may not, have idiosyncratic views about what is correct. That observer gets to set the policy. At least for some people. ("Hunky" is the standard term of derision in some subgroups of Americans for "Hungarian". It can be used to be insulting, like "Jap" or "Nip"; it can be used, by people who's credentials are in order and approved by the Modern Offense Monitors Society or MOMS, in ways that don't quite signal affection but show solidarity with that disadvantaged and formerly oppressed minority group.)

If you want to see the difference between politeness and milquetoast "PCism" try this. Pick two acquaintances you really don't care about. Go up to one and be rude. "Did you know you're a real dickhead? I mean, fuckhead just doesn't do it when saying how disgusting you are." He'll be offended. Now go up and with a tone of voice that is neutral or even approving, use a racial epithet--perhaps one that could apply to the person you're talking to, perhaps even just one that applies to his/her friend or S.O. "Did you know that hunkies wrote some really good music? Bartok, for instance." The "dickhead" comment is rude. But the comment analogous to "hunky" marks you not as rude, but as suspect, immoral or dangerous, and there's no way to get around this if you're credentials aren't in order. It will trigger a response that's different from mere insults. (This has been studied. Racial epithets really are different.) Politeness and PCism may overlap, but one's worse. Even if the person you talk to is an inveterate racist and agrees with the use of the epithet he may look around if it's in public to see if his reaction's being monitored by his peers before agreeing.

It's not "true" political incorrectness because there's no party line that you have to tow. But the behavior is often the same as in situations where there was real political correctness. For example, coming to work and saying good things about Khrushchev the day *after* he was sent off to his dacha for his "retirement." Or going to work for RT and singing to your friend, just loud enough for your boss to hear, "Putin--khuilo! La-la-la!"

There's a difference.

"Political Correctness" is what my mama always called "being polite". eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #1
Exactly ... etherealtruth Jul 2014 #2
True. It's always best and makes things go better. Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #105
"Being required", is interesting, in and of itself.. OLDMADAM Jul 2014 #228
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #132
That's a steaming load of bovine excrement. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #133
Yup! Although my grandma Bohunk68 Jul 2014 #216
I saw it used earlier today, here on DU CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #3
ya. patting the guy on the head in commiseration that he had a post hidden seabeyond Jul 2014 #5
That was the one CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #8
Exactly. Also, people are more sensitive today than they were years ago. Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #106
Wrong. There are just more categories of people it's not OK to insult n/t eridani Jul 2014 #147
No people are just more sensitive in general. Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #189
If your standard of comparison is the Middle Ages, of course we are more sensitive eridani Jul 2014 #192
No actually I'm talking about a couple of generations ago. Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #193
Ethnic insults becoming moretaboo is a great thing. Just like talking about sex becoming less taboo eridani Jul 2014 #205
We're talking about language not laws. Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #225
Lanugage reflects society and its laws n/t eridani Jul 2014 #231
Not always. Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #233
... SidDithers Jul 2014 #223
You are talking about the day when.... Springslips Jul 2014 #217
Actually from their perspective they legitimately thought they were doing the right thing. Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #226
Welcome to DU redqueen Jul 2014 #220
You call it "people being more sensitive" Number23 Jul 2014 #230
Exactly. It is people getting fed up and saying they won't just accept it anymore.nt redqueen Jul 2014 #237
people are tired of continually being insulted for no reason but the manner borned. horrible, seabeyond Jul 2014 #179
i am in the maher thread. purposely offensive to offend then offended when the insulted are offended seabeyond Jul 2014 #4
They seem to have no idea what "free speech is a two-way street" really means. nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #177
Conservatives love 99% of Political Correctness ieoeja Jul 2014 #6
He actually called that "conservative correctness". redqueen Jul 2014 #11
Both sides of the political spectrum manipulate language to further their agendas Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #32
Totally false equivalence. HERVEPA Jul 2014 #50
Back when, news organizations reported on "Pro Abortion" and "Anti Abortion" politics. Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #162
I've been here over a decade, you three months. HERVEPA Jul 2014 #201
Longevity gives DUers license to be rude? Fascinating.... Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #203
You know what schools do in Liberal Chicago at Christmas time? ieoeja Jul 2014 #78
So, to be clear, tolerating a Menorah or a Nativity = smug superiority over the abused? Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #166
"I think the ACLU has bigger fish to fry than whether someone wants to have a prayer before a footba greiner3 Jul 2014 #204
Maybe you're just a really lousy writer. ieoeja Jul 2014 #238
If truth be told The Wizard Jul 2014 #79
Doublespeak is a common right wing tactic. hunter Jul 2014 #7
Exactly. Seeing that agenda pushed here grinds my gears. nt redqueen Jul 2014 #13
+1 nt Live and Learn Jul 2014 #67
Excellent OP! nt sufrommich Jul 2014 #9
I think Steve Zara pointed out the major flaw with political correctness derby378 Jul 2014 #10
That makes no sense. redqueen Jul 2014 #14
I insist on your freedom to misbehave derby378 Jul 2014 #16
I get what you're saying, but entertainers are a different story. redqueen Jul 2014 #17
"Rant" or not, this is one of your best posts that I've read in a while. You draw the lines nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #182
For the part about "insisting any diversity should be respected", consider this: muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #18
That's not political correctness, nor a result of it, though. redqueen Jul 2014 #19
But we see that an anti-FGM activist did call it 'political correctness' muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #23
They can call it whatever they like. It's just used to push an agenda. redqueen Jul 2014 #26
All words are "just used to push an agenda" muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #34
I don't think his *goal* is vicious or pernicious. redqueen Jul 2014 #37
+1 nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #185
but a further problem with the example of circumcision is that it is foundational to CTyankee Jul 2014 #95
And ritual nicks on the clitoral hood are part of some other religion, redqueen Jul 2014 #98
well, as I said...I really don't discuss it... CTyankee Jul 2014 #104
The use of the phrase is still misguided. "Political correctness" has become such a generic nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #184
I can understand Zara's point. Maedhros Jul 2014 #125
Yeah, I would think "telling people what to do" is pretty well justified when it comes to mutilation nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #186
But what you just described applies to male circumcision too muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #207
I'm not a fan of male circumcision either, even if it's nowhere near the same thing nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #224
Formalized behavior is simply a layman's term for 'cultural mores' LanternWaste Jul 2014 #15
+1 Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #108
+2 nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #191
tellingly, the same people who bandy that phrase about geek tragedy Jul 2014 #12
They have a name AgingAmerican Jul 2014 #73
True that. Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #110
Most of them are Republican/conservative/right-leaning. But not all. n/t nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #187
+1,000,000,000 ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #100
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #150
You A Special Little Snowflake, Fella, Ain'tcha? The Magistrate Jul 2014 #151
It's funny how snowflakes are all supposed to be unique... arcane1 Jul 2014 #157
No it is not like that. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #152
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #153
What they don't realize is they have their own, equally arbitrary version of "political correctness" nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #188
Yes. For example, substituting "spring spheres" for "Easter eggs" Nye Bevan Jul 2014 #20
It's an example of made-up bullshit. Propaganda of the conservative, fox news variety. redqueen Jul 2014 #21
Seattle school renames Easter eggs 'Spring Spheres' Nye Bevan Jul 2014 #24
They're not spheres. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #27
Yes, I guess that is a legitimate point. Nye Bevan Jul 2014 #48
Is that a point? Sounds like more Christian whining to me. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #55
Why not just use the Fox News link, Nye? redqueen Jul 2014 #30
I just gave the top Google result for that phrase. (nt) Nye Bevan Jul 2014 #47
That never happened,it's another made up hoax: sufrommich Jul 2014 #36
All these made up conservative talking points really make the rounds. You'd think we could Squinch Jul 2014 #118
What does one bizarre, misguided aberration have to do with not needlessly offending people nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #190
Now we should place gifts under the festive winter shrubbery? Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #25
The Shrubbery of the Knights who say Ni? nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #56
PC was originally a term bandied about by Chinese Maoists to describe the correct part line. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #22
now you're throwing facts into the discussion. hobbit709 Jul 2014 #28
I thought we were the American Left? Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #38
Got a problem with women? ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #59
No and no. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #72
Of course not! ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #74
I didn't think so. n/t Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #101
I would so hate for there to be misunderstandings between us. nt ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #109
I understood the context of your post Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #120
And what do you think of angry men? ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #127
I think angry men do truly awful things Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #149
Are you telling us that you scorn them a lot? I hope not. Squinch Jul 2014 #154
My elder daughter and I exchange scorn Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #167
Aren't you special. And this is something you like to do? Squinch Jul 2014 #168
I enjoy offering to take her to lunch at Twin Peaks Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #169
So she feels that you are objectifying women when you offer to take her to a boob restaurant, and Squinch Jul 2014 #212
I only offer to take her there. We don't actually go. Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #218
You manufacture situations in which she is made uncomfortable enough that she feels she needs to Squinch Jul 2014 #221
OK, this is really entertaining and all, but we're going to end this now Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #222
Yes, I have a problem with women Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #121
Yes, many off us on DU have spouses and kids. ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #126
This message was self-deleted by its author Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #119
True... daleanime Jul 2014 #29
It's a useful phrase. Igel Jul 2014 #31
Thanks. That's a great post! Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2014 #39
Leftist origins, ok ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #40
I'm not even paying attention to posts that ignore context. redqueen Jul 2014 #41
The term has an interesting history ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #46
Yes, dictionaries are a waste of time and space. Nye Bevan Jul 2014 #49
You know very well that's not my point. redqueen Jul 2014 #51
I don't know what your point was, though muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #60
I seriously didn't think it was that easy to miss. redqueen Jul 2014 #66
The strange thing is that the pasted 'wall of text' seemed to support your OP muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #75
Now now, no need for that ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #80
Igel is the only one saying "it's a useful ..."; your pasted 'wall of text' is what redqueen muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #81
lol... "attacking" ... are you actually serious with this shit? redqueen Jul 2014 #82
Meh - people who reply to posts in their own threads with 'tl;dr' don't get to complain muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #93
Oh no. You hurt me. You cut me deep. redqueen Jul 2014 #96
I suppose more context is in order ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #84
I don't believe, in fact I'm positive, that's not what she what she was trying to say. ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #53
You're Finally RobinA Jul 2014 #58
I own my language, it doesn't own me. I use my language as I please. I recognize no authority. hunter Jul 2014 #111
"The phrase is dead to me. Useless." nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #194
I imagine that the dogmatic who discount the colloquial may even believe 'gentleman' LanternWaste Jul 2014 #113
Whenever I hear someone whining about 'political correctness'... Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #33
BOOM! redqueen Jul 2014 #43
+1 BainsBane Jul 2014 #99
+1 million Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #114
^^^^ That. The article says it's about entitlement and disrespect. When it is used to complain Squinch Jul 2014 #122
Correct... Ohio Joe Jul 2014 #143
I always feel "PC" critics ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #35
Yeah. The "first amendment" stuff is a hoot. redqueen Jul 2014 #45
RWers use the term a lot. PowerToThePeople Jul 2014 #42
Political correctness = white guy slightly inconvenienced. n/t Orsino Jul 2014 #44
That accounts for the vast majority of the term's use. (nt) Paladin Jul 2014 #69
True. Louisiana1976 Jul 2014 #115
And thinks his inconvenience trumps any hurt the word or phrase might cause. Squinch Jul 2014 #123
And why the heck not sing "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep" Nye Bevan Jul 2014 #52
Whoa, that leads to this article called "Loony left"! alp227 Jul 2014 #62
Sure does ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #65
How is "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep" in any way "loony"? Nye Bevan Jul 2014 #83
Ah the Torygraph... how fitting. redqueen Jul 2014 #87
When I complained about the Rude Pundit calling women the "c" word, Nye Bevan Jul 2014 #92
Yes and at one point in time most would disagree redqueen Jul 2014 #94
How did you miss the point? ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #88
That baa baa black sheep thing was a hoax. It never happened. Squinch Jul 2014 #214
So what IS your point in bringing up these stories? alp227 Jul 2014 #97
LOL... like I keep saying... true to form! redqueen Jul 2014 #70
Don't you have any sources that aren't right wing agenda scams? That's two so far in this thread. Squinch Jul 2014 #124
Sorry, I wasn't aware that Wikipedia was a "right-wing agenda scam". Nye Bevan Jul 2014 #128
No, Nye. Wikipedia is fine. In fact, it tells us that the Baa Baa Black Sheep story was a right Squinch Jul 2014 #129
Why are you using trivial bullshit to mock serious concerns about oppressive behavior? nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #195
My observation is that when "political correctness" is brought up in discussion of political issues WatermelonRat Jul 2014 #54
A lot (and by that I mean most) of the over-the-top stuff on tumblr is sarcasm. redqueen Jul 2014 #57
It's certainly possible, thanks to Poe's law, that a given example may be a troll or satire. WatermelonRat Jul 2014 #68
Oh sure, there are definitely a few. redqueen Jul 2014 #71
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #164
Misguided, ridiculous people. They should probably be ignored. n/t nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #196
Demonization of the words "politically correct" is nothing but brainwashing propaganda Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #61
Political correctness is a terrible thing JoeyT Jul 2014 #63
Lots of DUers were accused of "political correctness" when they objected to Rude Pundit Nye Bevan Jul 2014 #86
If you're making the point that "political correctness" is a largely meaningless phrase, there are nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #197
"vituperative", what does it mean? I had to look it up (my bad). saidsimplesimon Jul 2014 #64
Political Correctness = Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have created a language to conceal Exultant Democracy Jul 2014 #76
None of us is George Carlin. ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #89
I notice how rarely anyone quotes his "the male disease" bit. nt redqueen Jul 2014 #90
Yup ismnotwasm Jul 2014 #91
Language is alive subject Jul 2014 #77
Police IT department bans word 'blacklist' in case it is deemed racist Nye Bevan Jul 2014 #85
Some computer terms really are racist mwrguy Jul 2014 #107
I would disagree with that Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #117
Is using the word "seniors" to describe old people politically correct? I'd say so but you won't brewens Jul 2014 #102
This message was self-deleted by its author Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #103
"SHUT UP!", they explained. BKH70041 Jul 2014 #112
The problem is each person has their own definition of PC Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #116
Sure. But there's a time and a place for that sort of thing. nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #198
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #130
Aaah poor baby CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #131
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #134
hey buddy a troll is a troll and not deserving of any politeness from anyone CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #135
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #136
Yes, yes I am. 100 percent. CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #137
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #138
as I said before, you deserve no politeness from anyone. CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #140
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #142
aww poor widdle oppressed cracker man Kali Jul 2014 #144
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #156
bye! hrmjustin Jul 2014 #158
Gee, you wasted no time. Oh, and welcome back! Tarheel_Dem Jul 2014 #159
I love how you folks attempt to act as if the word cracker is vile and hurtful. CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #145
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #160
I think all racial epithets are vile and hurtful. PlanetaryOrbit Jul 2014 #170
You A Special Little Snowflake, Fella, Ain'tcha? The Magistrate Jul 2014 #139
Outstanding, as usual. CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #148
PC = Plain Courtesy n/t eridani Jul 2014 #141
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #146
So what words, phrases, or thoughts would you ban... NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #155
You tell me - what kind of "politically incorrect" ideas are you thinking of? alp227 Jul 2014 #161
That's really not an answer - more of a swerve. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #172
"not be dismissed out of hand because they are not politically correct" alp227 Jul 2014 #173
You first. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #174
Well, you brought up the idea first, so instead of asking loaded questions why not provide examples alp227 Jul 2014 #175
Uh...yeah. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #176
Callout? Really? alp227 Jul 2014 #178
I agree. secondvariety Jul 2014 #211
Unfortunately the left invented the term Shivering Jemmy Jul 2014 #163
I believe it is used as a phrase to demonise compassion by the Right (wrong?)... uriel1972 Jul 2014 #165
The cited source is wrong. Political correctness originated with communism on point Jul 2014 #171
It's a useful term to describe a kind of lunacy. Bonobo Jul 2014 #180
Call it "lunacy," then. Or "stupidity." Or even "intolerance" if you think that fits. nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #199
Sure, I can do that! Bonobo Jul 2014 #200
Right. If political correctness was just being courteous, then the word courteous would be used valerief Jul 2014 #213
One can go overboard in an attempt ... JEFF9K Jul 2014 #181
thats how I view Niceguy1 Jul 2014 #210
Before it was used derisively by the Limbaughs of the world, it was used with 100% earnestness Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #183
Thank you, redqueen... Out of Time Man Jul 2014 #202
''It is my firm belief that it is a mistake to hold firm beliefs.'' ~Robert Anton Wilson n/t DeSwiss Jul 2014 #206
Heh Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #209
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #208
This: chervilant Jul 2014 #215
Gee, the trolls really seem to hate this stuff eh? redqueen Jul 2014 #219
+1! Tom Tomorrow echoed your sentiments many years ago RufusTFirefly Jul 2014 #227
Excellent, thanks. Much nicer to see this from the left than the hoax stories from the right redqueen Jul 2014 #234
K&R I start to brace myself for a tsunami of stupid every single time I hear someone start Number23 Jul 2014 #229
Yeah, it would be more accurate to have said "it was more common"... redqueen Jul 2014 #235
There Is a Political Corectness of the Right Wolf Frankula Jul 2014 #232
Oh, is it? redqueen Jul 2014 #236
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