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Yorktown
Yorktown's Journal
Yorktown's Journal
June 5, 2015
What science can tell us about our not-so-scientific minds.
—By Chris Mooney | Tue Nov. 26, 2013 12:31 PM EST
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/11/seven-evolutionary-reasons-people-deny-evolution
(..) Here's a list of cognitive traits, thinking styles, and psychological factors identified in recent research that seem to thwart evolution acceptance:
Biological Essentialism.
First, we seem to have a deep tendency to think about biology in a way that is "essentialist"—(..) Fish have gills, birds have wings, fish make more fish, birds make more birds, and that's how it all works. Essentialist thinking has been demonstrated in young children. (..) Charles Darwin and his many scientific disciples have shown that essentialism is just plain wrong: Given enough time, biological kinds are not fixed but actually change. (..)
Teleological Thinking.
(..)"teleology," or the tendency to ascribe purposes to things and objects so as to assume they exist to serve some goal. Recent research suggests that 4 and 5 year old children are highly teleological in their thinking, (..) clouds are "for raining" and that the purpose of lions is "to go in the zoo."
..)
In other words, our brains developed for thinking about what people are thinking, and people have intentions and goals. If that's right, the playing field may be naturally tilted toward anti-evolutionist doctrines like "intelligent design," which postulates an intelligent agent (God) as the cause of the diversity of life on Earth, (..)
Overactive Agency Detection.
But how do you know the designer is "God"? That too may be the result of a default brain setting.
Another trait, closely related to teleological thinking, is our tendency to treat any number of inanimate objects as if they have minds and intentions. Examples of faulty agency detection, (..) range from seeing "faces in the clouds" to "getting really angry at your computer when it starts to malfunction." People engage in such "anthropomorphizing" all the time (..) "Supernatural agents are readily conjured up because natural selection has trip-wired cognitive schema for agency detection in the face of uncertainty," write Norenzayan and fellow origin of religion scholar Scott Atran.
Dualism.
Yet another apparent feature of our cognitive architecture is the tendency to think that minds (or the "self" and the "soul"
are somehow separate from brains. (..) "Preschool children will claim that the brain is responsible for some aspects of mental life, typically those involving deliberative mental work (but) that the brain is not involved in a host of other activities, such as pretending to be a kangaroo, (..)
Dualistic thinking is closely related to belief in phenomena like spirits and ghosts. But in a recent study, it was also the cognitive factor most strongly associated with believing in God. As for evolutionary science? Dualism is pretty clearly implicated in resistance to the idea that human beings could have developed from purely natural processes—for if they did, how could there ever be a soul or self beyond the body, to say nothing of an afterlife?
Inability to Comprehend Vast Time Scales.
According to Norenzayan, there's one more basic cognitive factor that prevents us from easily understanding evolution. Evolution occurred due to the accumulation of many small changes over vast time periods—which means that it is unlike anything we've experienced. So even thinking about it isn't very easy. "The only way you can appreciate the process of evolution is in an abstract way," says Norenzayan. "Over millions of years, small changes accumulate, but it's not intuitive. There's nothing in our brain that says that's true. We have to override our incredulity."
Group Morality and Tribalism.
(..) beyond these cognitive factors, there are also emotional reasons why a lot of people don't want to believe in evolution. When we see resistance to its teaching, after all, it is usually because a religious community fears that this body of science will undermine a belief system (..) deemed to serve as the foundation for shared values and understanding. In other words, evolution is resisted because it is perceived as a threat to the group.
(..) The upside is unity; the downside, Haidt continues, is "groupishness, tribalism, and nationalism." Ideas and beliefs that threaten the group or the beliefs that hold it together—ideas like evolution—are bound to fare badly in this context.
Fear and the Need for Certainty.
Finally, there appears to be something about fear and doubt that impels religiosity and dispels acceptance of evolution. "People seem to take more comfort from a stance that says, someone designed the world with good intentions, instead of that the world is just an intention-less, random place," says Norenzayan. "This is especially true when we feel a sense of threat, or a feeling of not being in control."
Indeed, in one amazing study, New Zealanders who had just suffered through a severe earthquake showed stronger religiosity, but only if they had been directly affected by the quake. Other research suggests that making people think about death increases their religiosity and also decreases evolution acceptance. (..)
(..)
7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than EvolutionWhat science can tell us about our not-so-scientific minds.
—By Chris Mooney | Tue Nov. 26, 2013 12:31 PM EST
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/11/seven-evolutionary-reasons-people-deny-evolution
(..) Here's a list of cognitive traits, thinking styles, and psychological factors identified in recent research that seem to thwart evolution acceptance:
Biological Essentialism.
First, we seem to have a deep tendency to think about biology in a way that is "essentialist"—(..) Fish have gills, birds have wings, fish make more fish, birds make more birds, and that's how it all works. Essentialist thinking has been demonstrated in young children. (..) Charles Darwin and his many scientific disciples have shown that essentialism is just plain wrong: Given enough time, biological kinds are not fixed but actually change. (..)
Teleological Thinking.
(..)"teleology," or the tendency to ascribe purposes to things and objects so as to assume they exist to serve some goal. Recent research suggests that 4 and 5 year old children are highly teleological in their thinking, (..) clouds are "for raining" and that the purpose of lions is "to go in the zoo."
..)
In other words, our brains developed for thinking about what people are thinking, and people have intentions and goals. If that's right, the playing field may be naturally tilted toward anti-evolutionist doctrines like "intelligent design," which postulates an intelligent agent (God) as the cause of the diversity of life on Earth, (..)
Overactive Agency Detection.
But how do you know the designer is "God"? That too may be the result of a default brain setting.
Another trait, closely related to teleological thinking, is our tendency to treat any number of inanimate objects as if they have minds and intentions. Examples of faulty agency detection, (..) range from seeing "faces in the clouds" to "getting really angry at your computer when it starts to malfunction." People engage in such "anthropomorphizing" all the time (..) "Supernatural agents are readily conjured up because natural selection has trip-wired cognitive schema for agency detection in the face of uncertainty," write Norenzayan and fellow origin of religion scholar Scott Atran.
Dualism.
Yet another apparent feature of our cognitive architecture is the tendency to think that minds (or the "self" and the "soul"
are somehow separate from brains. (..) "Preschool children will claim that the brain is responsible for some aspects of mental life, typically those involving deliberative mental work (but) that the brain is not involved in a host of other activities, such as pretending to be a kangaroo, (..)
Dualistic thinking is closely related to belief in phenomena like spirits and ghosts. But in a recent study, it was also the cognitive factor most strongly associated with believing in God. As for evolutionary science? Dualism is pretty clearly implicated in resistance to the idea that human beings could have developed from purely natural processes—for if they did, how could there ever be a soul or self beyond the body, to say nothing of an afterlife?
Inability to Comprehend Vast Time Scales.
According to Norenzayan, there's one more basic cognitive factor that prevents us from easily understanding evolution. Evolution occurred due to the accumulation of many small changes over vast time periods—which means that it is unlike anything we've experienced. So even thinking about it isn't very easy. "The only way you can appreciate the process of evolution is in an abstract way," says Norenzayan. "Over millions of years, small changes accumulate, but it's not intuitive. There's nothing in our brain that says that's true. We have to override our incredulity."
Group Morality and Tribalism.
(..) beyond these cognitive factors, there are also emotional reasons why a lot of people don't want to believe in evolution. When we see resistance to its teaching, after all, it is usually because a religious community fears that this body of science will undermine a belief system (..) deemed to serve as the foundation for shared values and understanding. In other words, evolution is resisted because it is perceived as a threat to the group.
(..) The upside is unity; the downside, Haidt continues, is "groupishness, tribalism, and nationalism." Ideas and beliefs that threaten the group or the beliefs that hold it together—ideas like evolution—are bound to fare badly in this context.
Fear and the Need for Certainty.
Finally, there appears to be something about fear and doubt that impels religiosity and dispels acceptance of evolution. "People seem to take more comfort from a stance that says, someone designed the world with good intentions, instead of that the world is just an intention-less, random place," says Norenzayan. "This is especially true when we feel a sense of threat, or a feeling of not being in control."
Indeed, in one amazing study, New Zealanders who had just suffered through a severe earthquake showed stronger religiosity, but only if they had been directly affected by the quake. Other research suggests that making people think about death increases their religiosity and also decreases evolution acceptance. (..)
(..)
June 5, 2015
Scientific American: No Pause in Global Warming
Excerpts:
No Pause in Global Warming
A new study suggests that global warming continues to steadily increase
By Brian Kahn and Climate Central | June 4, 2015
The global warming hiatus—a decade-plus slowdown in warming—could be chalked up to some buoys, a few extra years of data and a couple buckets of seawater. That’s the finding of a new study published on Thursday in Science, which uses updated information about how temperature is recorded, particularly at sea, to take a second look at the global average temperature. The findings show a slight but notable increase in that average temperature, putting a dent in the idea that global warming has slowed over the past 15 years, a trend highlighted in the most recent Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report.
The term “ global warming hiatus” is a bit of a misnomer. It refers to a period of slower surface warming in the wake of the 1997-98 super El Niño compared to the previous decades. However, make no mistake, the globe’s average temperature has still risen over that period (including record heat in 2014) and temperatures now are the hottest they’ve been since recordkeeping began in the 1880s. So let’s call it what it really is: a slowdown, not a disappearance of global warming. The new findings show that even the concept of the slowdown could be overstated.
“There is no slowdown in global warming,” Russell Vose, the head of the climate science division at the National Centers for Environmental Information (NCEI), said. “Or stated differently, the trend over the past decade and half is in line with the trend since 1950.”
Vose helped author the new study, which uses new information about how data is collected at sea to reanalyze surface temperature records. The new analysis essentially doubles the rate of temperature rise since 1998. That puts it more in line with warming trends since the 1950s, though some researchers said there were still some periods of faster warming on record since the 1950s.“The fact that such small changes to the analysis make the difference between a hiatus or not merely underlines how fragile a concept it was in the first place,” Gavin Schmidt, the head of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, said.
Temperatures have warmed 1.6°F since the 1880s. Projections indicate the temperatures could rise as much as 11°F by century’s end if greenhouse gas emissions aren’t slowed and that the rate of warming could reach levels unseen in 1,000 years by 2030s.
The study was inspired by some new metadata, the data behind the data, that provided clues that scientists weren’t properly accounting for certain types of measurements. Specifically, there have been a proliferation of buoys over the past 40 years and the survival of an antiquated measurement technique used by ships.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-pause-in-global-warming/
A new study suggests that global warming continues to steadily increase
By Brian Kahn and Climate Central | June 4, 2015
The global warming hiatus—a decade-plus slowdown in warming—could be chalked up to some buoys, a few extra years of data and a couple buckets of seawater. That’s the finding of a new study published on Thursday in Science, which uses updated information about how temperature is recorded, particularly at sea, to take a second look at the global average temperature. The findings show a slight but notable increase in that average temperature, putting a dent in the idea that global warming has slowed over the past 15 years, a trend highlighted in the most recent Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report.
The term “ global warming hiatus” is a bit of a misnomer. It refers to a period of slower surface warming in the wake of the 1997-98 super El Niño compared to the previous decades. However, make no mistake, the globe’s average temperature has still risen over that period (including record heat in 2014) and temperatures now are the hottest they’ve been since recordkeeping began in the 1880s. So let’s call it what it really is: a slowdown, not a disappearance of global warming. The new findings show that even the concept of the slowdown could be overstated.
“There is no slowdown in global warming,” Russell Vose, the head of the climate science division at the National Centers for Environmental Information (NCEI), said. “Or stated differently, the trend over the past decade and half is in line with the trend since 1950.”
Vose helped author the new study, which uses new information about how data is collected at sea to reanalyze surface temperature records. The new analysis essentially doubles the rate of temperature rise since 1998. That puts it more in line with warming trends since the 1950s, though some researchers said there were still some periods of faster warming on record since the 1950s.“The fact that such small changes to the analysis make the difference between a hiatus or not merely underlines how fragile a concept it was in the first place,” Gavin Schmidt, the head of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, said.
Temperatures have warmed 1.6°F since the 1880s. Projections indicate the temperatures could rise as much as 11°F by century’s end if greenhouse gas emissions aren’t slowed and that the rate of warming could reach levels unseen in 1,000 years by 2030s.
The study was inspired by some new metadata, the data behind the data, that provided clues that scientists weren’t properly accounting for certain types of measurements. Specifically, there have been a proliferation of buoys over the past 40 years and the survival of an antiquated measurement technique used by ships.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-pause-in-global-warming/
June 2, 2015
The Campus Crusaders
The Campus Crusaders
Every generation has an opportunity to change the world. Right now, college campuses around the country are home to a moral movement that seeks to reverse centuries of historic wrongs.
This movement is led by students forced to live with the legacy of sexism, with the threat, and sometimes the experience, of sexual assault. (..) racism and bigotry. (..) equal rights for gays, lesbians (..)
These students are driven by noble impulses to do justice and identify oppression. (..)
But when you witness how this movement is actually being felt on campus, you can’t help noticing that it sometimes slides into a form of zealotry. If you read the website of the group FIRE, which defends free speech on campus, (..) you see speech codes that inhibit free expression;
(..)
Today’s campus activists are not only going after actual acts of discrimination — which is admirable. They are also going after incorrect thought — impiety and blasphemy.
(..)
According to this theory, the dividing lines between good and evil are starkly clear. The essential conflict is between the traumatized purity of the victim and the verbal violence of the oppressor.
(..)
There will always be moral fervor on campus. Right now that moral fervor is structured by those who seek the innocent purity of the vulnerable victim. Another and more mature moral fervor would be structured by the classic ideal of the worldly philosopher, by the desire to confront not hide from what you fear, but to engage the complexity of the world, (..)
IHT - JUNE 2, 2015 - David Brooks
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/02/opinion/david-brooks-the-campus-crusaders.html
Every generation has an opportunity to change the world. Right now, college campuses around the country are home to a moral movement that seeks to reverse centuries of historic wrongs.
This movement is led by students forced to live with the legacy of sexism, with the threat, and sometimes the experience, of sexual assault. (..) racism and bigotry. (..) equal rights for gays, lesbians (..)
These students are driven by noble impulses to do justice and identify oppression. (..)
But when you witness how this movement is actually being felt on campus, you can’t help noticing that it sometimes slides into a form of zealotry. If you read the website of the group FIRE, which defends free speech on campus, (..) you see speech codes that inhibit free expression;
(..)
Today’s campus activists are not only going after actual acts of discrimination — which is admirable. They are also going after incorrect thought — impiety and blasphemy.
(..)
According to this theory, the dividing lines between good and evil are starkly clear. The essential conflict is between the traumatized purity of the victim and the verbal violence of the oppressor.
(..)
There will always be moral fervor on campus. Right now that moral fervor is structured by those who seek the innocent purity of the vulnerable victim. Another and more mature moral fervor would be structured by the classic ideal of the worldly philosopher, by the desire to confront not hide from what you fear, but to engage the complexity of the world, (..)
IHT - JUNE 2, 2015 - David Brooks
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/02/opinion/david-brooks-the-campus-crusaders.html
May 31, 2015
Nebraska prisoner Stephen Cavanaugh is suing over the right to pursue his faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Specifically he wants:
* to dress in religious garments — that is, full pirate regalia — and,
* to take part in weekly meetings with others who hold similar beliefs
He’s also asking for $5 Million in damages related to “deep emotional, psychological, and spiritual pain resulting from being allowed to practice my religion, and Mr. Bartlet [Religious Coordinator, Nebraska State Pen]‘s repeated mocking and insulting of my faith.”
I’m skeptical of anyone asking for money, and my immediate thought was that this is a frivolous lawsuit. But after reading the court documents and talking with people in the know, I feel that here is a troubled guy who is legitimately trying to pursue his faith and, only after being stymied by the in-house prison channels, was forced to take the fight to the courts. Yes the dollar amount he’s asking for is exorbitant (and in my view, hurts his case), but the underlying complaint feels legitimate to me.
One thing I found alarming: in the court docs there’s a claim by prison officials that, when looking into Cavanaugh’s religion, they found “the founder of Pastafarianism stated that it was a parody of religion”, and used this as a reason to deny Cavanaugh his requests for religious garments and group prayer.
They may or may not be referring to me, I don’t know — but I don’t think I’ve ever spoken to any Nebraskan prison officials, and if I did I wouldn’t have used those words.
For the record, I don’t believe Pastafarianism is a parody.
What I say, sometimes, is that some number of Pastafarians do not believe in a literal Flying Spaghetti Monster or our Creation story. And that is perfectly fine — it’s a common thing even in mainstream religion to be skeptical of scripture. The distinction is that in FSM, the culture is more accepting of people who are skeptical-minded, while in many mainstream religions, doubt is seen as an affront to the Dogmatic Truth.
My point is that there are doubters in religion in general, simply because religious scripture can be full of nonsense. You wouldn’t say Christianity is a parody just because some members don’t buy the part about the world being created in 7 days and the talking snake, etc.
Religion is more than a collection of beliefs and rituals, it’s a way to form community and a framework to make sense of our place in the universe. And on this level, I think Prison officials did Cavanaugh a disservice in not allowing him to pursue his faith. I mean, he wasn’t asking for that much. He wanted to buy a pirate costume with his own money and hang out with some other Pastafarians once a week.
One last point I’d like to make: lets consider that maybe the prison officials are simply unenlightened about the FSM. Maybe this is just a misunderstanding, rather than outright religious persecution. I suspect that Mr. Cavanaugh may be willing to call of the fight if the prison officials would relent and allow him to pursue his faith.
Here are the best articles I’ve found, if you’d like to keep reading about Cavanaugh’s case:
[1] Great article (and spectacular title) by ThinkProgress about the Cavanaugh lawsuit — Inmate Sues Prison Claiming His Religious Liberty Entitles Him To Dress Like A Pirate
[2] The raw court documents (PDF)
[3] Here’s an article where some lawyers are discussing whether the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster may have some influence in rethinking the RLUIPA (religion in prison) laws
Pastafarian Inmate Sues Prison
Nebraska prisoner Stephen Cavanaugh is suing over the right to pursue his faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Specifically he wants:
* to dress in religious garments — that is, full pirate regalia — and,
* to take part in weekly meetings with others who hold similar beliefs
He’s also asking for $5 Million in damages related to “deep emotional, psychological, and spiritual pain resulting from being allowed to practice my religion, and Mr. Bartlet [Religious Coordinator, Nebraska State Pen]‘s repeated mocking and insulting of my faith.”
I’m skeptical of anyone asking for money, and my immediate thought was that this is a frivolous lawsuit. But after reading the court documents and talking with people in the know, I feel that here is a troubled guy who is legitimately trying to pursue his faith and, only after being stymied by the in-house prison channels, was forced to take the fight to the courts. Yes the dollar amount he’s asking for is exorbitant (and in my view, hurts his case), but the underlying complaint feels legitimate to me.
One thing I found alarming: in the court docs there’s a claim by prison officials that, when looking into Cavanaugh’s religion, they found “the founder of Pastafarianism stated that it was a parody of religion”, and used this as a reason to deny Cavanaugh his requests for religious garments and group prayer.
They may or may not be referring to me, I don’t know — but I don’t think I’ve ever spoken to any Nebraskan prison officials, and if I did I wouldn’t have used those words.
For the record, I don’t believe Pastafarianism is a parody.
What I say, sometimes, is that some number of Pastafarians do not believe in a literal Flying Spaghetti Monster or our Creation story. And that is perfectly fine — it’s a common thing even in mainstream religion to be skeptical of scripture. The distinction is that in FSM, the culture is more accepting of people who are skeptical-minded, while in many mainstream religions, doubt is seen as an affront to the Dogmatic Truth.
My point is that there are doubters in religion in general, simply because religious scripture can be full of nonsense. You wouldn’t say Christianity is a parody just because some members don’t buy the part about the world being created in 7 days and the talking snake, etc.
Religion is more than a collection of beliefs and rituals, it’s a way to form community and a framework to make sense of our place in the universe. And on this level, I think Prison officials did Cavanaugh a disservice in not allowing him to pursue his faith. I mean, he wasn’t asking for that much. He wanted to buy a pirate costume with his own money and hang out with some other Pastafarians once a week.
One last point I’d like to make: lets consider that maybe the prison officials are simply unenlightened about the FSM. Maybe this is just a misunderstanding, rather than outright religious persecution. I suspect that Mr. Cavanaugh may be willing to call of the fight if the prison officials would relent and allow him to pursue his faith.
Here are the best articles I’ve found, if you’d like to keep reading about Cavanaugh’s case:
[1] Great article (and spectacular title) by ThinkProgress about the Cavanaugh lawsuit — Inmate Sues Prison Claiming His Religious Liberty Entitles Him To Dress Like A Pirate
[2] The raw court documents (PDF)
[3] Here’s an article where some lawyers are discussing whether the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster may have some influence in rethinking the RLUIPA (religion in prison) laws
May 30, 2015
My initial post to the site admins:
Skinner's negative answer:
My regretful acknowledgment of the refusal.
How I tried to get the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the Interfaith group.
This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Renew Deal (a host of the Religion group) in the 'Religion' group. Let's try it here. The role of the Sacred Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster in society needs to be discussed and clarified.My initial post to the site admins:
About representing the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the 'interfaith' forum
Someone speaking in the collective name of the religions of the bronze age (hrmjustin) suggested my religion, that of the Holy Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, would probably not be welcome in the interfaith forum, having to be confined to the forums for skeptics.
This is unfair as we are believers and would not enjoy having to mingle with skeptics, atheists, agnostics and other such unsavory characters. We would like to bask in the joy of sharing our religious experience with like minded believers such as the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and all the other men and women of true faith (even if their faiths are not that which pleases the eternal Flying Spaghetti Monster, may peace and grated cheese be upon it always).
In short, we, believers in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would like to have equal rights with the more established religions, even if we are a new and minority religion.
For your kind attention, and may the pasta be with you.
RAmen.
Someone speaking in the collective name of the religions of the bronze age (hrmjustin) suggested my religion, that of the Holy Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, would probably not be welcome in the interfaith forum, having to be confined to the forums for skeptics.
This is unfair as we are believers and would not enjoy having to mingle with skeptics, atheists, agnostics and other such unsavory characters. We would like to bask in the joy of sharing our religious experience with like minded believers such as the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and all the other men and women of true faith (even if their faiths are not that which pleases the eternal Flying Spaghetti Monster, may peace and grated cheese be upon it always).
In short, we, believers in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would like to have equal rights with the more established religions, even if we are a new and minority religion.
For your kind attention, and may the pasta be with you.
RAmen.
Skinner's negative answer:
You aren't actually believers in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's a joke.
As for whether nonbelievers should be permitted in the Interfaith group, that is entirely up to the hosts of that group. I tend to think the minimum requirement to participate in that group is a desire to foster greater civility and understanding, as per the group's statement of purpose:
A safe haven that provides opportunities for people of all faiths, spiritual leanings and non-belief to discuss religious topics and events in a positive and civil manner, with an emphasis on tolerance. Criticisms of individual beliefs or non-belief, or debates about the existence of higher power(s) are not appropriate in this group.
Posting facetiously about actually believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster could probably be taken as evidence that one in not interested in fostering greater understanding and tolerance.
As for whether nonbelievers should be permitted in the Interfaith group, that is entirely up to the hosts of that group. I tend to think the minimum requirement to participate in that group is a desire to foster greater civility and understanding, as per the group's statement of purpose:
A safe haven that provides opportunities for people of all faiths, spiritual leanings and non-belief to discuss religious topics and events in a positive and civil manner, with an emphasis on tolerance. Criticisms of individual beliefs or non-belief, or debates about the existence of higher power(s) are not appropriate in this group.
Posting facetiously about actually believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster could probably be taken as evidence that one in not interested in fostering greater understanding and tolerance.
My regretful acknowledgment of the refusal.
Noted. Some comments if I may.
You delegated authority to mods, and it is the right thing for you to stand by the opinion of the mods you appointed. Decision made and point taken.
But, in the name of fairness, since hrmjustin PMd you to make the case against letting the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster in the interfaith group, I write this answer to simply state what would have been the arguments for accepting our Church in the interfaith group:
(1) Interfaith is meant for people of all faiths, so the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster qualifies, as the founder of the FSM Church stated that it is a true Church of a real religion. Since its founder says so, why disbelieve a man of religion when he speaks?
(2) But, for argument sake, if you think the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster is just atheists strutting under a false flag, they still would have their place in the interfaith forum which is "A safe haven .. for people of all faiths, spiritual leanings and non-belief"
And there is nothing to say they would not meet "the minimum requirement to participate in that group" being "a desire to foster greater civility and understanding". I did ask questions in a civil way to hrmjustin about Moses with a clear intent to further the common understanding of that character of the Torah. That was in the 'Religion' forum, it could have been in the 'interfaith' forum.
(3) Now let's be honest, you do formulate what could be the only obstacle to membership of the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster to the interfaith forum: that the name of that Church could be felt to be a mockery of religions (negated in 1, but let's imagine).
Then we would have a group of atheists highlighting through a parable what they feel to be religious questions to be discussed. Saying the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster (grated parmigiano be upon it) created the Universe in one day is one way to discuss cosmology and the weaknesses of the two genesis stories in the Bible. Saying the Flying Spaghetti Monster (tomato sauce be upon it always) welcomes every sinner in its heaven is an image allowing to question the notion of the original sin. Disrespect could only be in the tone, and most members of our Church are extremely civil and polite. Who says humor is disrespectful when discussing cosmology?
(4) One last point which is comparative: assuming the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster are atheists, why would they not be better discussion partners to discuss religion and cosmology than believers in established but violent religions of the past?
There is a religion in England of 'Neo-druidism'. National Geographic recently revealed evidence that suggests that Druids possibly committed cannibalism and ritual human sacrifice. Who should engage in interfaith dialog? Cannibal druids or vegetarian Pastafarians?
Anyway, this was all for argument sake.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster (parmigiano be upon it) will not be mentioned in Interfaith.
May Pasta be upon you.
You delegated authority to mods, and it is the right thing for you to stand by the opinion of the mods you appointed. Decision made and point taken.
But, in the name of fairness, since hrmjustin PMd you to make the case against letting the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster in the interfaith group, I write this answer to simply state what would have been the arguments for accepting our Church in the interfaith group:
(1) Interfaith is meant for people of all faiths, so the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster qualifies, as the founder of the FSM Church stated that it is a true Church of a real religion. Since its founder says so, why disbelieve a man of religion when he speaks?
(2) But, for argument sake, if you think the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster is just atheists strutting under a false flag, they still would have their place in the interfaith forum which is "A safe haven .. for people of all faiths, spiritual leanings and non-belief"
And there is nothing to say they would not meet "the minimum requirement to participate in that group" being "a desire to foster greater civility and understanding". I did ask questions in a civil way to hrmjustin about Moses with a clear intent to further the common understanding of that character of the Torah. That was in the 'Religion' forum, it could have been in the 'interfaith' forum.
(3) Now let's be honest, you do formulate what could be the only obstacle to membership of the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster to the interfaith forum: that the name of that Church could be felt to be a mockery of religions (negated in 1, but let's imagine).
Then we would have a group of atheists highlighting through a parable what they feel to be religious questions to be discussed. Saying the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster (grated parmigiano be upon it) created the Universe in one day is one way to discuss cosmology and the weaknesses of the two genesis stories in the Bible. Saying the Flying Spaghetti Monster (tomato sauce be upon it always) welcomes every sinner in its heaven is an image allowing to question the notion of the original sin. Disrespect could only be in the tone, and most members of our Church are extremely civil and polite. Who says humor is disrespectful when discussing cosmology?
(4) One last point which is comparative: assuming the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster are atheists, why would they not be better discussion partners to discuss religion and cosmology than believers in established but violent religions of the past?
There is a religion in England of 'Neo-druidism'. National Geographic recently revealed evidence that suggests that Druids possibly committed cannibalism and ritual human sacrifice. Who should engage in interfaith dialog? Cannibal druids or vegetarian Pastafarians?
Anyway, this was all for argument sake.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster (parmigiano be upon it) will not be mentioned in Interfaith.
May Pasta be upon you.
May 29, 2015
My initial post to the site admins:
Skinner's negative answer:
My regretful acknowledgment of the refusal.
How I tried to get the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the Interfaith group.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12597940My initial post to the site admins:
About representing the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the 'interfaith' forum
Someone speaking in the collective name of the religions of the bronze age (hrmjustin) suggested my religion, that of the Holy Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, would probably not be welcome in the interfaith forum, having to be confined to the forums for skeptics.
This is unfair as we are believers and would not enjoy having to mingle with skeptics, atheists, agnostics and other such unsavory characters. We would like to bask in the joy of sharing our religious experience with like minded believers such as the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and all the other men and women of true faith (even if their faiths are not that which pleases the eternal Flying Spaghetti Monster, may peace and grated cheese be upon it always).
In short, we, believers in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would like to have equal rights with the more established religions, even if we are a new and minority religion.
For your kind attention, and may the pasta be with you.
RAmen.
Someone speaking in the collective name of the religions of the bronze age (hrmjustin) suggested my religion, that of the Holy Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, would probably not be welcome in the interfaith forum, having to be confined to the forums for skeptics.
This is unfair as we are believers and would not enjoy having to mingle with skeptics, atheists, agnostics and other such unsavory characters. We would like to bask in the joy of sharing our religious experience with like minded believers such as the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and all the other men and women of true faith (even if their faiths are not that which pleases the eternal Flying Spaghetti Monster, may peace and grated cheese be upon it always).
In short, we, believers in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would like to have equal rights with the more established religions, even if we are a new and minority religion.
For your kind attention, and may the pasta be with you.
RAmen.
Skinner's negative answer:
You aren't actually believers in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's a joke.
As for whether nonbelievers should be permitted in the Interfaith group, that is entirely up to the hosts of that group. I tend to think the minimum requirement to participate in that group is a desire to foster greater civility and understanding, as per the group's statement of purpose:
A safe haven that provides opportunities for people of all faiths, spiritual leanings and non-belief to discuss religious topics and events in a positive and civil manner, with an emphasis on tolerance. Criticisms of individual beliefs or non-belief, or debates about the existence of higher power(s) are not appropriate in this group.
Posting facetiously about actually believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster could probably be taken as evidence that one in not interested in fostering greater understanding and tolerance.
As for whether nonbelievers should be permitted in the Interfaith group, that is entirely up to the hosts of that group. I tend to think the minimum requirement to participate in that group is a desire to foster greater civility and understanding, as per the group's statement of purpose:
A safe haven that provides opportunities for people of all faiths, spiritual leanings and non-belief to discuss religious topics and events in a positive and civil manner, with an emphasis on tolerance. Criticisms of individual beliefs or non-belief, or debates about the existence of higher power(s) are not appropriate in this group.
Posting facetiously about actually believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster could probably be taken as evidence that one in not interested in fostering greater understanding and tolerance.
My regretful acknowledgment of the refusal.
Noted. Some comments if I may.
You delegated authority to mods, and it is the right thing for you to stand by the opinion of the mods you appointed. Decision made and point taken.
But, in the name of fairness, since hrmjustin PMd you to make the case against letting the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster in the interfaith group, I write this answer to simply state what would have been the arguments for accepting our Church in the interfaith group:
(1) Interfaith is meant for people of all faiths, so the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster qualifies, as the founder of the FSM Church stated that it is a true Church of a real religion. Since its founder says so, why disbelieve a man of religion when he speaks?
(2) But, for argument sake, if you think the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster is just atheists strutting under a false flag, they still would have their place in the interfaith forum which is "A safe haven .. for people of all faiths, spiritual leanings and non-belief"
And there is nothing to say they would not meet "the minimum requirement to participate in that group" being "a desire to foster greater civility and understanding". I did ask questions in a civil way to hrmjustin about Moses with a clear intent to further the common understanding of that character of the Torah. That was in the 'Religion' forum, it could have been in the 'interfaith' forum.
(3) Now let's be honest, you do formulate what could be the only obstacle to membership of the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster to the interfaith forum: that the name of that Church could be felt to be a mockery of religions (negated in 1, but let's imagine).
Then we would have a group of atheists highlighting through a parable what they feel to be religious questions to be discussed. Saying the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster (grated parmigiano be upon it) created the Universe in one day is one way to discuss cosmology and the weaknesses of the two genesis stories in the Bible. Saying the Flying Spaghetti Monster (tomato sauce be upon it always) welcomes every sinner in its heaven is an image allowing to question the notion of the original sin. Disrespect could only be in the tone, and most members of our Church are extremely civil and polite. Who says humor is disrespectful when discussing cosmology?
(4) One last point which is comparative: assuming the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster are atheists, why would they not be better discussion partners to discuss religion and cosmology than believers in established but violent religions of the past?
There is a religion in England of 'Neo-druidism'. National Geographic recently revealed evidence that suggests that Druids possibly committed cannibalism and ritual human sacrifice. Who should engage in interfaith dialog? Cannibal druids or vegetarian Pastafarians?
Anyway, this was all for argument sake.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster (parmigiano be upon it) will not be mentioned in Interfaith.
May Pasta be upon you.
You delegated authority to mods, and it is the right thing for you to stand by the opinion of the mods you appointed. Decision made and point taken.
But, in the name of fairness, since hrmjustin PMd you to make the case against letting the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster in the interfaith group, I write this answer to simply state what would have been the arguments for accepting our Church in the interfaith group:
(1) Interfaith is meant for people of all faiths, so the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster qualifies, as the founder of the FSM Church stated that it is a true Church of a real religion. Since its founder says so, why disbelieve a man of religion when he speaks?
(2) But, for argument sake, if you think the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster is just atheists strutting under a false flag, they still would have their place in the interfaith forum which is "A safe haven .. for people of all faiths, spiritual leanings and non-belief"
And there is nothing to say they would not meet "the minimum requirement to participate in that group" being "a desire to foster greater civility and understanding". I did ask questions in a civil way to hrmjustin about Moses with a clear intent to further the common understanding of that character of the Torah. That was in the 'Religion' forum, it could have been in the 'interfaith' forum.
(3) Now let's be honest, you do formulate what could be the only obstacle to membership of the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster to the interfaith forum: that the name of that Church could be felt to be a mockery of religions (negated in 1, but let's imagine).
Then we would have a group of atheists highlighting through a parable what they feel to be religious questions to be discussed. Saying the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster (grated parmigiano be upon it) created the Universe in one day is one way to discuss cosmology and the weaknesses of the two genesis stories in the Bible. Saying the Flying Spaghetti Monster (tomato sauce be upon it always) welcomes every sinner in its heaven is an image allowing to question the notion of the original sin. Disrespect could only be in the tone, and most members of our Church are extremely civil and polite. Who says humor is disrespectful when discussing cosmology?
(4) One last point which is comparative: assuming the Church of the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster are atheists, why would they not be better discussion partners to discuss religion and cosmology than believers in established but violent religions of the past?
There is a religion in England of 'Neo-druidism'. National Geographic recently revealed evidence that suggests that Druids possibly committed cannibalism and ritual human sacrifice. Who should engage in interfaith dialog? Cannibal druids or vegetarian Pastafarians?
Anyway, this was all for argument sake.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster (parmigiano be upon it) will not be mentioned in Interfaith.
May Pasta be upon you.
May 29, 2015
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/relationships/soul-curry/A-Muslim-girls-prayer-for-her-Hindu-brothers/articleshow/47443091.cms
On human goodness despite religion, and prayers unanswered.
A touching story during the Iranian revolution: a Muslim girl praying for the safety of Hindus.
That girl was good despite her religion condemning Hindus as polytheists and idolaters.
A Muslim girl's prayer for her Hindu brothers
(..) It still disturbs me emotionally, even after 29 long years.
I was working as a physician in Iran at a hospital in Sanandaj, the capital of Kurdistan province in Iran. The Islamic revolution was at its peak (..) the province of Kurdistan was thrown into tremendous turmoil and upheaval. (..) The city of Sanandaj was besieged by the army and blown apart by continuous mortar shelling for about two days. Then the army literally terrorized the city.
Due to certain prior commitments, I had to stay back with a surgeon friend after sending our families to India. We stayed at a rented place for those few days. The upper storey of the house was occupied by a kind landlord and his family (..) We stayed holed up in the basement of that house right through all the shelling.
Next morning after the takeover, we were urgently required to attend the heavy casualties at the hospital. Even as we prepared to leave, I remember Nahideh, the daughter of our landlord, read out the holy Koran praying for the safety of us, her Hindu brothers. Her serene face, as she recited the ayat, has been etched on my memory for an entire lifetime. (..)
Forty minutes later, on the same day, I suddenly heard the screams of my landlord and his family, right outside the Emergency door. I rushed out only to find Nahideh fighting for her life. She was brutally hit by a sniper's bullet, her skull had cracked and she was bleeding profusely. All our desperate attempts to revive her proved futile.
Her death left a gaping hole in my faith. It confused me about the sanctity of prayers as I kept questioning God about his demands. How could someone who prayed for the well-being and safety of others meet such a cruel end in our presence? I am in waiting but haven't yet got a satisfactory reply from Him. (..)
(..) It still disturbs me emotionally, even after 29 long years.
I was working as a physician in Iran at a hospital in Sanandaj, the capital of Kurdistan province in Iran. The Islamic revolution was at its peak (..) the province of Kurdistan was thrown into tremendous turmoil and upheaval. (..) The city of Sanandaj was besieged by the army and blown apart by continuous mortar shelling for about two days. Then the army literally terrorized the city.
Due to certain prior commitments, I had to stay back with a surgeon friend after sending our families to India. We stayed at a rented place for those few days. The upper storey of the house was occupied by a kind landlord and his family (..) We stayed holed up in the basement of that house right through all the shelling.
Next morning after the takeover, we were urgently required to attend the heavy casualties at the hospital. Even as we prepared to leave, I remember Nahideh, the daughter of our landlord, read out the holy Koran praying for the safety of us, her Hindu brothers. Her serene face, as she recited the ayat, has been etched on my memory for an entire lifetime. (..)
Forty minutes later, on the same day, I suddenly heard the screams of my landlord and his family, right outside the Emergency door. I rushed out only to find Nahideh fighting for her life. She was brutally hit by a sniper's bullet, her skull had cracked and she was bleeding profusely. All our desperate attempts to revive her proved futile.
Her death left a gaping hole in my faith. It confused me about the sanctity of prayers as I kept questioning God about his demands. How could someone who prayed for the well-being and safety of others meet such a cruel end in our presence? I am in waiting but haven't yet got a satisfactory reply from Him. (..)
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/relationships/soul-curry/A-Muslim-girls-prayer-for-her-Hindu-brothers/articleshow/47443091.cms
May 26, 2015
New Religions: (3) the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
After two threads on the First Church of Bacon and the United Church of Shatner, this third thread on New Religions is more emotional for me, for here, I am presenting the doctrine and beliefs of my own Church: the Holy Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Before I go into detail about the mainstream beliefs of our Church, it should be remembered that ours is a young Church, with beliefs which still are only gradually becoming clear to us. Our doctrine, beliefs and attitudes are therefore liable to be evolutive, sometimes transitional and/or contradictory. All of which is secondary compared to what really counts: a deep personal relationship with our god, the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster (may tomato sauce be upon it).
By decreasing importance and degree of consensus, our beliefs are:
• the Universe was created by our maker, the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster (may grated parmeggiano be upon it) on the First Day after he had drank from the Beer Volcano in Heaven. the fact the Holy FSM had drunk is the rational explanation for the imperfections of this world.
The Supreme Spaghetti enjoying the occasional prank, He hid dinosaur fossils underground to "dupe mankind" about Earth's true age. He is also the cause of gravity, pulling things down with His Holy noodly appendage (may extra virgin olive oil be upon it)
• Believers and most sinners will go to paradise where they will enjoy the Beer Volcano and hookers (72 hookers if one dies doing the pastafarian jihad, a kind of frat war involving pasta)
• The holy sloth day is Friday, celebrated as the FSM's TGIF with kegs of cold beer.
The attire most respectful of our god is a pasta sieve (including on ID photos)
• Some Pastafarians believe the pirates of the 1600s and 1700s were the original pastafarians on earth, maybe or maybe not with special powers. The only thing which is a fact is that many ills on earth developed after the disparition of the pirates of the Carribean Sea, notably man made global warming, as proven by this graph:
Dressing and talking like a pirate are considered signs of devotion to the Church.
Like any Church, we must face doubters, and even haters. Here is what the Discovery Institute spokesman Robert Crowther said of us: "It's too bad that they'll get attention for this sort of drivel when we have a robust scientific research program that the media doesn't seem to want to write much about". The robust scientific research program of the Discovery Institute is about proving a man-like 'God' created the universe, world, creatures and pasta in 7 days. (a ridiculous claim compared to the much more reasonable proposition of a creation in one beer fuelled day).
I think I covered the main points. Do not hesitate to ask me question. You can PM me if you wish to join our Church.
May fresh basil leaves be on the Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster always.
Noodly yours.
May 21, 2015
About representing the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the 'interfaith' forum
Someone speaking in the collective name of the religions of the bronze age (hrmjustin) suggested my religion, that of the Holy Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, would probably not be welcome in the interfaith forum, having to be confined to the forums for skeptics.
This is unfair as we are believers and would not enjoy having to mingle with skeptics, atheists, agnostics and other such unsavory characters. We would like to bask in the joy of sharing our religious experience with like minded believers such as the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and all the other men and women of true faith (even if their faiths are not that which pleases the eternal Flying Spaghetti Monster, may peace and grated cheese be upon it always).
In short, we, believers in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would like to have equal rights with the more established religions, even if we are a new and minority religion.
For your kind attention, and may the pasta be with you.
RAmen.
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