Biden and Bernie set for clash

[nitpicker]

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/440334-biden-and-bernie-set-for-clash

Biden and Bernie set for clash

By Alexander Bolton and Amie Parnes - 04/24/19 06:00 AM EDT

Former Vice President Joe Biden’s looming entry into the Democratic presidential primary sets up what could be a titanic clash against Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.).

The elder statesmen who are the two front-runners for the nomination served together in the Senate briefly. Biden was the far bigger star than Sanders on Capitol Hill.

But Sanders has been more of a liberal policy visionary, championing policies that were initially regarded by colleagues as fringe ideas. These concepts were later embraced by leading members of the Democratic caucus, such as raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour and providing free college education.
(snip)

A Democratic strategist said there was a concern in Obama circles that Sanders could run in 2012 because he thought Obama wasn’t progressive enough.

Sanders allies admit that Biden is their biggest worry. For starters, they are both trying to appeal to independent voters and also disenfranchised Republicans.

“I think from that side of it, Bernie doesn’t like Biden,” the strategist said, adding that the theory around Democratic circles is that “Bernie’s camp is the source of much of the Biden opposition being dropped.”

“So I wonder if Bernie goes on the attack early and — which then makes Biden have to choose [to] ignore the attacks and do his own thing or get down in the mud and kick Bernie’s ass,” the strategist said.
(snip)

[Pachamama]

1. No, there won't be a clash between Biden & Bernie

Between supporters - yes. But I think this is a hyped up wet dream by the media who want fights.

I think those of us who care about focusing on the issues and not petty fights will not be distracted because that will bring nothing.

I meanwhile am excited about Biden finally entering the race....

[MrsCoffee]

3. Sanders clashes with just about everyone.

Just saying. The perception is he isn’t much of a team player.

[Cha]

4. Well yeah.. a well

earned "perception".

[ehrnst]

28. True this.

Even when it comes to allies and staff.

[DownriverDem]

6. Agree

A lot of folks have been waiting for Biden to enter the race including Foreign Leaders (our allies). A Biden/Harris ticket would be formidable. We just want to beat trump.

[LakeArenal]

44. Yes.

[Hortensis]

2. :) Of course Sanders has never liked Biden. The Democrats are

what Sanders wants to be, with plenty of personalization and improvement of course. He's always had a hostile relationship with his colleagues, who for over a quarter century mostly just avoided him, while Biden was very well liked and rose in leadership. They even passed national healthcare with Sanders mostly self-sidelined as usual. The ACA was a giant achievement that contradicted all Sanders claimed about them, and we know how bitterly he took that.



As for Biden, we can use an elder statesman among our selections, and I hope he mostly sticks to that role. The nastier the attacks from Sanders' campaign are, the better he and the rest of our most promising Democratic candidates will look in comparison.

[fatrick]

5. Yes, but it is nothing to fear.

It marks the changing of the guard and a transition from the old order to the new. We all love Biden but he left it too late and has a lot of baggage. He optimizes the old guard. I’d vote for him without a second thought in the General erection, but the reality is we need someone like Bernie to capture the vision of the younger generation and minorities.

This is why all the tension and attempts to throw Bernie under the bus over last few weeks.

Its is a natural part of change as we move from one state to another.

Bernie has moved from position of outsider thru to disruptive insider and now looks inevitable to be nominee. The momentum is too high and he’s become and unstoppable force. Those who this threatens are going to make a lot of fuss over next few weeks as the come to terms with this reality and we need to be aware.

All Bernie supporters need to stay cool and see the bigger picture through the attacks. Every candidate had to go thru this to get there (yes, even President Obama). The end-point is important to get the moron out of the Whitehouse and not the noise that will be between now and then.

[Pachamama]

7. Bwahahaha....

You said Inevitable.....



I’m sorry - I love my candidate and some of the others....even I would never presume to be so bold and use that word....

Using your argument Buttigieg would represent the changing of the guard - or any of the women candidates....

Bernie is and always will be an outsider - a disruptive one at that....

[fatrick]

11. Yes, agree Pete is also outsider

Bernie and Pete are two sides of the same coin, an external force meeting an existing object with immense mass. There’s going to be heat when things collide but what comes out the other end will be stronger and ready to take on the challenge of Trump.

President Obama was also an outsider until ... he became an insider in the blink of an eye. Both Pete and Bernie are In a similar mould to Him.

BTW, I would love to vote for your candidate too ... that is the different for Bernie supporters, if Bernie is el3ected, we win. If Harris is elected, we win. It’s just that I feel Bernie chance of reaching the end point objective are far higher than Harris, but that’s just a different for opinion it doesn’t mean I’m against you or your candidate.

[ehrnst]

30. Some here keep using that word. I don't think it means what they think it does.

[BannonsLiver]

48. Yes, the unintentional comedy is priceless

[BlueFlorida]

9. ...

[Celerity]

13. this is patently untrue

and now looks inevitable to be nominee

There is almost no scenario that Bernie gets 50% +1 of the delegates needed to win the nomination on the first ballot. After that, the SD's kick in and the DNC, the other candidates' delegates, and the SD's themselves will NEVER nominate Bernie. Sorry, it is not happening. We are not a Party that makes suicide pacts electorally.

Bernie had a chance to sort himself. He should have long ago stopped falsely self-labelling as a democratic socialist. He is NOT a socialist, that is ridiculous. He doesn't want to do away with capitalism, nor does he advocate state control of the means of production. Those are foundational to being a socialist. He should have repudiated that stupid label. That false label would crush him in any general POTUS election in this reactionary country. He will be (falsely, but still devastatingly) labelled a bloody communist, as tens of millions (over a hundred maybe) of Americans are so under-educated and lacking in critical thinking skills, plus brain-washed due to a hangover from 45 years of Cold War paranoia that they instantly equate socialism with communism. That is probably going to be the case for the next 2 or 3 decades still.

His second (and much more recent) blunder was to say fuck the ACA, it is Medicare For All or nothing. That is absolutely suicidal politically when we do not have large majorities in BOTH houses of Congress. Even if we 53, 54, 55 seats in the Senate, and the same number of Reps in the House we do now, we still could not ramrod through a Medicare For All bill that instantly did away with all (or most all) private insurance. There will be enough Democratic defections that it will NOT happen. I wish it could, I am in favour of that, BUT the votes are simply not there, and will not be for many cycles.

By far the best pathway to MFA is to offer the public option, Medicare for all those who want it. That is a VERY progressive stance. Far bolder than Obamacare alone. Yet what does Bernie's entire team, surrogates, twitter goons, most supporters (other than on DU) do? Start attacking Buttigieg and others who support the public option as the glidepath to MFA as goddamn neoliberals and 3rd-way DINO's!!! That is fucking madness!

I hope you do understand that due to the SCOTUS already tilted to the far right (and possibly 8-1 hardcore RW maniacs if Trump wins re-election, as we will lose Breyer and RBG almost for sure by 2025, and Sotomayor has really bad diabetes) that even the ACA may be soon gone, let a public option. Single payer MFA?? LOLOL They would shoot that down the shitter quicker than the orange bloat can fling out one of his ludicrous tweets.

So, NO, Bernie is as close to being 'inevitable' as Trump is to being a sage and a truth-teller.

[fatrick]

16. Reality hits in stages

1. Bernie is irrelevant to Democrats since he’s a socialist (2015)
2. Bernie is disruptive because he’s challenged the status quo (2016)
3. Bernie won’t run because we need younger candidates (2017)
4. Bernie is running but is behind in all the polls, ignore him (2018)
5. Bernie’s now ahead in all the polls, but the delegates will end him (2019)

What happens next I do not know for sure ... but I’ve got a good felling about it.

[Celerity]

18. Reality is Bernie (unless he has been lying for 30 years) is NOT a socialist at all anymore

yet calls himself one to grab plazzy hipster chic street cred.

By doing so he is FUCKING UP any and all boilerplate social democratic programmes, as they, because of his faux dem soc posturing, get falsely labelled as radical socialism when they ARE NOT at all. It is as stupid as when people (usually RW mouth-breathers, but I have seen others do it as well) call the Nordic countries 'socialist'. The Nordics actually have more vibrant (AND, omg, actually regulated fairly) capitalist systems than the US does. They have higher rates (by far) of social upward mobility, are far more productive per hour worked, and have far higher MEDIAN (per capita GDP figures are such a huge scam) per person incomes than we do here. They also are incredibly more fair in wealth equality, which is the number ONE interlocking, overarching stat that determines the overall success of a society.

Bernie, with his ego-driven stubbornness to cling to false labels, dooms his own very cherished programmes and initiatives here, as they are falsely smeared and attacked for being something they are not.

At times I truly have to wonder if he is a wilful wrecker, as he self-sabotages to such a high degree than it blows back onto our whole party and utter aids in the grinding, nonstop ever-rightward (at the end of the day) drift of the political system here. Either that, or he is just comically ignorant of the baseline superstructure and collective zeitgeist of the American body politic.

This:

1. Bernie is irrelevant to Democrats since he’s a socialist (2015)
2. Bernie is disruptive because he’s challenged the status quo (2016)
3. Bernie won’t run because we need younger candidates (2017)
4. Bernie is running but is behind in all the polls, ignore him (2018)
5. Bernie’s now ahead in all the polls, but the delegates will end him (2019)

is just a foxhole mentality engendered by a simplistic 'us' v 'them' dialectic that ill-serves ALL involved.

It is self-limiting and so detrimental to expansion of his base due to the animosity that a priori flows from his inner core and cascades down to the masses of followers as they are trained to see everything in conspiratorial terms and attribute ill-intent to anyone outside the group. It is the rationalisation product sprung forth from classic psy-ops often used by what far too often are (even if not in the beginning) cult leaders.

[fatrick]

31. Yes

It may be simplistic, but that just the way some of us “socialist” types are. We see the world for what it is and don’t need to explain it using the blend of complex scientific models and Latin phrases you seem to be very good at.

Now guess what, 99% of America sees stuff simply too and that’s who we need to win ... this is where Bernie is making massive in roads. If simple gets us the Whitehorse in 2020 so be it.

[Celerity]

35. My friend, socialism IS a complex philosophical and socio-economic model. You are

not going to be able to sell it in hyper predatory-capitalistic America. The best we can hope for is to grindingly, bit by bitter bit, claw back the crony capitalism model that is pervasive here for damn near the entire post Civil War period (no the so-called early 20th century 'progressives' like Teddy Roosevelt did NOT stop it at all, for a detailed look that what was the result I implore you to read Triumph of Conservatism by Gabriel Kolko, a superb New Left revisionist scholar from the mid- 20th century) and yoke its excesses under a levelling, NON-CAPTURED regulatory state. That is social democracy, NOT democratic socialism.


The Triumph of Conservatism: A Reinterpretation of American History, 1900–1916. By Gabriel Kolko. (New York: Free Press of Glencoe. 1963.

The era of Presidents Roosevelt, Taft and Wilson has been labelled ""progressive"" by virtually all historians. Mr. Kolko maintains that is a misnomer and that it was, in fact, an era of conservatism. He details decisions made by the national political leaders during the period 1900-1916 and shows that, in virtually every case, they chose solutions as advocated by the business giants--such as the Morgans, the Rockefellers and the Harrimans. Such regulation of industry as was instituted in concern for general welfare was, in the author's words, ""invariably controlled by the leaders of the regulated industry"". What he is saying is that the American economy did not have to become one of business giants and monopolies, nor was regulatory federal legislation just a reaction to what has been assumed to be an inevitable tendency; it actually incubated the growth and concentration of economic power. His argument may cause some stir among historians, economists and big businessmen.


https://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Conservatism-Reinterpretation-American-1900-1916/dp/0029166500


Full text of 'The Triumph of Conservatism'

https://archive.org/stream/KolkoGabrielTheTriumphOfConservatism/America+-+Gabriel+Kolko+-+The+Triumph+of+Conservatism%3B+A+Reinterpretation+of+American+History%2C+1900-1916_djvu.txt

[fatrick]

43. People chose to make things complex

Because it makes them feel good about themselves or obfuscates facts that are staring them in the face. This complexity is repulsive to many. Obama and Clinton both understood this so they sold their vision in simple terms, fairness, justice, economic progress. These aren’t complex terms that need Latin logical rhetoric to explain. How many Latin phrases did MLK or Lincoln use in their speeches. Rather than over complicating matters try to simply and you’ll get to the end point quicker with a lot more people aligned with you.

[Celerity]

47. what latin phrases are you on about? a priori? LOLOLOLOL

And you might want to remove Lincoln from the non-Latin crew.

I keep it simple and vulgar.

1. Bernie has an inner core of divisive hateful fucks surrounding him. They MAY have good intentions, but their output is scorched earth attacks. They are fucking POISON to our Party.

2. Bernie is a FOOL for playing footsie with this 'I am a independent BUT will USE the Dems to slouch into the Senate'' BULLSHIT as he sees fit as a means to an end. That instantly makes US look like fucking the bad guys. He is TOO GOOD for us, as he ALWAYS fucks off and shits on US via dropping the party after he bloody gets what he wants.

3. He has NEVER update his economic critique to take into account the utterly FUCKED UP MODEL that is the USA racially. He is a classical student of Euro Marxism thought, that, due to its origins in a 98 percent WHITE power schema, does not take into account (or dismisses it to a large degree) the interplay and dynamics of race relations HERE.

-----------

This nation is so imbibed with whiteness-based power controls that ANY critique of it HAS to start by taking (if you want to gain traction with us people of colour who bloody are the power brokers in our Party in terms of mass voting patterns and party LOYALTY) us, US, US into goddamn account. LOOK at how the ghastly Rethugs USE us as a fulcrum electorally! They KNOW that so many whites have a 400 year old (in terms of POC as slaves, immigrants, etc and distil us down to the FEARED OTHER, to use Foucaultian terminology) cultural DNA-based fear of that 'other' Bernie does FUCKALL to address this other than to say we (POC) need to just trust that economic justice will solve all the endemic racism. IT FUCKING WILL NOT.

Bernie is selling rad chic faux socialism quick fixes to kale-chomping hipsters AND, in the process, ripping the party apart as his political inner core power matrix is almost entirely composed of seek-and-destroy attack dogs.

He is not here to reform, he is here to DESTROY, as what he proposes needs a DIVERSE Democratic Party to reclaim the Senate, keep the House, and remove the monster Trump just to fucking get SOME of it even voted on. By SHITTING on Warren, Harris, Buttigieg, et al, (who are goddamn progressive as hell) his purity dog pound makes most of the rest of the party HATE HIM.

[BlueFlorida]

25. You'll be able to complete your list

when Bernie drops out after super Tuesday.

[qazplm135]

33. inevitable?

lol No.

[SFnomad]

41. The only thing that is inevitable is BS will be looking for someone to blame after Super Tuesday n/t

[LakeArenal]

45. Inevitable. Not.

[BlueFlorida]

8. Biden is not Hillary

He sold his kid gloves in a garage sale in 2007.

[NurseJackie]

15. Good!

[peggysue2]

21. LOL!

Good one. A solid response to the 'Hillary 2.0' label I've seen flying through the ether. Though I don't consider the label an insult, this line definitely deflates the argument.

[Autumn]

10. Already done. Biden camp jumped and blamed Bernie for Flores, Biden"is ready to kill Bernie",

Bernie camp said no one from their side was involved in it. Bernie ignores it and focusses on issues and campaigning like a presidential candidate should.

[fatrick]

12. 100%

This is Bernie’s most potent tool ... others naturally focus on political shenanigans he’s out there selling his vision for a fairer America. Yes, sometimes we need the political games it is after all a political landscape the candidates operate under but right now we need vision more. Bernie has gambled on vision and it’s been working ... working too well maybe as the establishment come to see him as unstoppable.

If it’s not Bernie then I’d actually naturally vote for Biden anyway because I feel he shares my values. If anything I’m closer to Biden in a policy sense than Bernie, but the reality is that we need the right candidate at the right time to serve as a leader, and right now at this time that candidate is not Biden.

[ehrnst]

19. What 'political shenanigans' are you referring to? (nt)

[fatrick]

22. General political gamesmanship

Bernie stays aloof from the political games.

He sticks to substances not empty rhetoric.

[ehrnst]

23. So do the rest of the Democratic POTUS candidates. There are few who've been on

Capitol Hill for decades and decades like Sanders has.

He's certainly mastered quite a bit of politicing savvy.

Liz Warren actually got the CPB into existence. Kamala and tore it up during the Kavanaugh hearings. Mayor Pete is inspiring people in deep red Indiana of all places, and he hasn't had NEARLY the long history politicing that Bernie and Biden have.

Most Democratic Candidates have offered up their tax returns without the political gamesmanship that some have displayed.

[qazplm135]

38. lol no

the only candidate that statement is remotely true about is probably Warren as she seems the least into rhetoric of any of the candidates.

[BlueFlorida]

24. Bernie's vision is past its best use by date and not selling

What is left is David Sirota and his tactics

[ehrnst]

26. Indeed. (nt)

[NYMinute]

36. +1 nt

[LakeArenal]

46. And other candidates carry his message better.

[ehrnst]

32. Bernie doesn't ignore anything he even remotely perceives as a slight, dissent or fact check.

He has some very sharp elbows.

https://www.mediaite.com/online/bernie-sanders-writes-complaint-letter-because-thinkprogress-criticized-him-for-being-a-millionaire/

https://www.urban.org/research/publication/response-criticisms-our-analysis-sanders-health-care-reform-plan

https://observer.com/2018/08/bernie-sanders-jake-tapper-fight-over-medicare-for-all-findings/

And his response to people were going to be affected by the nuclear waste dump that he legislated (and jane was still profiting from in 2014) who wanted to talk to him about what effect it was going to have:

"" target="_blank">My position is unchanged and you’re not going to like it.” When asked if he would at least visit the proposed site in Sierra Blanca, he said: “Absolutely not. I'm gonna to be running for re-election in the state of Vermont."

He wants the press to simply publish his statements, not fact check or analyze them.

But Sanders’s remedy for what ails the media — uncritical, stenographic coverage of his agenda — betrays a misunderstanding of the role of a free press. And his dismissal of legitimate journalism not to his liking as “political gossip” bears a troubling resemblance to what another politician refers to as “fake news.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/02/26/ive-reported-bernie-sanders-years-free-press-cant-give-him-what-he-wants/


No... he does anything but ignore criticism or someone disputing his opinions. He gets very testy.

[NYMinute]

37. We already have a thin-skinned POTUS nt

[ehrnst]

42. Who demonizes the press when it doesn't flatter him. (nt)

[NurseJackie]

14. "Bernie's camp is the source of much of the Biden opposition being dropped." --- Figures.

“Bernie’s camp is the source of much of the Biden opposition being dropped.”

Figures.

[ehrnst]

20. Yes, doesn't it?

[NYMinute]

39. All the negative smears on Hillary

came from that camp first and then Trump exploited them.

We don't want to see that again.

[BlueFlorida]

40. Exactly this nt

[Nanjeanne]

17. I think Biden pulls more from Buttigieg than he does from Bernie in actual supporters.

But that’s just not as gossipy and sexy to the media!

[NurseJackie]

29. It's just wishful thinking.

But that’s just not as gossipy and sexy to the media!

It's just wishful thinking.

[beachbum bob]

27. Biden will have no worries about Sanders, the stalwart bluestates will select Joe every time

and the less stalwart ones will easily select Biden.

[democratisphere]

34. If Democrats don't unite for the greater good of beating drumpf,

all is lost to the rethugs.