Bernie Sanders: Even 'Terrible People' Have the Right to Vote

[Uncle Joe]

(snip)

“Yes, even for terrible people, because once you start chipping away” at people’s constitutional rights, even those who have committed a crime, “you’re running down a slippery slope,” said Sanders.

(snip)

In the 2018 midterms, Florida voters restored voting rights to people in the state who had been convicted of felonies, a move that will overwhelmingly impact black people who are incarcerated at more than five times the rate of white people. Some organizers see the issue as an “institutionalization of slavery.”

(snip)

“Cowardly Republican governors are trying to suppress the vote. In fact, right here in New Hampshire, the legislature and the government are making it more difficult for young people to vote,” said Sanders.

(snip)

Sanders said his campaign seeks to create a vibrant democracy, starting with the rights of all people to participate in the voting process.


http://fortune.com/2019/04/23/bernie-sanders-town-hall-cnn/

[WeekiWater]

1. I agree with Sanders and am glad he is doing this for two reasons.

1) It’s the right thing to do.

2) The more he talks about it the more voters are going to run from him.

[Uncle Joe]

2. I agree with your first sentence but not you second. n/t

[WeekiWater]

3. I have talked about this to friends and colleagues for a long long time.

I have promoted it to local and state groups.

I understand how universally hated the idea is. This isn't something new for me.

[Uncle Joe]

4. I believe you speak the truth of your personal experience but

I don't believe the issue to be static.

[WeekiWater]

6. It's not static. Never insinuated it was. Eventually I think we will get there.

It's how things like this work and why I continue to talk about it. As of now, the whole concept is flat out hated. Over time I believe it will happen. It will start with people like myself and Sanders who are willing to speak publicly about it. We are willing to take the strange looks and hits.

[Uncle Joe]

12. I believe the time span for the enlightenment to be shorter than your estimation.

Bernie is willing to take the hits, I trust his political and policy acumen and its' not only moral but logical as well.

[WeekiWater]

14. "I believe the time span for the enlightenment to be shorter than your estimation."

Not on any issue that has needed grassroots efforts to build momentum.

[Uncle Joe]

17. I believe modern day communications and an already established on line media campaign will

speed up the transformation of perceptions.

[WeekiWater]

18. Yeah. That new internet and social media thing. NT

[Uncle Joe]

21. "Bernie Sanders Is Quietly Building a Digital Media Empire"

The Vermont senator, who’s been comparing corporate television programming to drugs and accusing it of creating a “nation of morons” since at least 1979 — and musing to friends about creating an alternative news outlet for at least as long — has spent the last year and a half building something close to a small network out of his office in the Dirksen Senate Office Building on Capitol Hill.

He understands, but resents, the comparison to the man who’s described the news media as the “enemy of the people.” His take is different, and he has his own plans. “[Am I concerned] that people might see me and Trump saying the same thing? Yes, I am,” Sanders conceded, leaning back in a leather chair in a conference room in his office on a recent Tuesday, as footage of Mark Zuckerberg’s testimony one building over played on TVs throughout his office. Wearing his standard uniform — long tie, jacket in need of a few swipes with a lint roller — he launched into the critique now familiar to anyone who’s watched one of his rallies. “My point of view is a very, very different one. My point of view is the corporate media, by definition, is owned by large multinational corporations: their bottom line is to make as much money as they can. They are part of the Establishment. There are issues, there are conflicts of interest in terms of fossil fuel advertising — how they have been very, very weak, in terms of climate change.” Needless to say, the content he produces is not sponsored by advertisers.

(snip)

If you buy Sanders’s formulation of What Went Wrong, those campaigns may not have much of a choice if they want to get their message out somehow. His theory of 2016 holds that the corporate media’s inability to focus on long-term issues is a big part of how Trump won in the first place.

“Because people turn on the television, and they’re working longer hours for lower wages, they don’t have health care, their kids can’t afford to go to college, and they’re watching TV: ‘Hey! What about me? You know, I don’t care that Trump fired somebody else today, what about my life or my kids’ lives?’ So what we do, is we look at media in a different sense, we try to figure out what are the issues that impact ordinary people, and how can we provide information to them?”

(snip)

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/04/bernie-sanders-is-quietly-building-a-digital-media-empire.html

[WeekiWater]

26. That means nothing to the point. NT

[fatrick]

52. Whatever you say about Bernie ...

He's consistent. I don't like what he's saying here either (I dont agree with Bernie on a lot of stuff) but I get his point and I accept it, but more importantly I respect that fact that he's held these views before they become mainstream. Far easier to take a "controversial" view point once everyone's already on-board (e.g. criminal reform) but Bernie's been out there defending the rights we now take for granted. How can I criticize him for that?

[Uncle Joe]

59. Welcome to D.U. fatrick.

[RazBerryBeret]

5. #2 is a problem

this is what I like about Bernie, he really believes in doing the right thing, regardless. If voters are tired of hearing politicians say what they think voters want to hear, he is a stand out. But you want people to run from a leader who proposes to do the right thing, so they will vote for someone doing the wrong thing?

[SharonClark]

9. Just because Sanders says it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

[RazBerryBeret]

38. Well, duh...

I was replying to the comment "1. because it's the right thing to do"

[WeekiWater]

13. It's reality.

And because I think he is proposing the right thing in one instance does not make an all encompassing thought, as you have insinuated. You really had to stretch to get there.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

16. I lol'd because you're right on both counts.

[LongtimeAZDem]

28. I agree with your second sentence but not your first.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. I would argue that some crimes are so heinous they shock the conscience.

And that withdrawing the right to vote from those that commit them, especially wile they are incarcerated, does not constitute disproportionate punishment.

[WeekiWater]

34. This is where we will completely disagree.

I think our justice system should be about the protection of society as a whole and all thoughts of punishment should be removed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. I believe the framers were wise to distinguish

I believe the framers were wise to distinguish between punishment and cruel and unusual punishment. I heartily endorse the notion that what we consider cruel and unusual punishment changes with the times but we aren't at the point that withdrawing the right to vote from those who are currently being incarcerated for rape, murder, and terrorism could be considered cruel and unusual punishment. On a lighter note I would also withhold premium cable from that cohort.

[WeekiWater]

41. I agree with much of your thought here.

"but we aren't at the point that withdrawing the right to vote from those who are currently being incarcerated for rape, murder, and terrorism could be considered cruel and unusual punishment."

I would like to add that just because something is not viewed as cruel and unusual does not mean that it is put in place.

In other words, we do not need to view the removal of voting rights as cruel and unusual in order for them to have that right restored. There is that implication in your sentence. I do agree with your overall sentiment. I am in the extreme minority on this one. I also believe that the removal of voting rights is on very sound constitutional ground.

[Uncle Joe]

35. Lines that "shock the conscience" to compel voter disenfranchisement are easily moved

by the passions and prejudices of the day.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. All disenfranchised voters are not alike

And putting voters who are currently in prison for murder, rape, and terrorism in the same batch as non-violent offenders who have served their time does a gross disservice to the latter.

[Uncle Joe]

37. It's not a question of all disenfranchised voters being alike.

It's a question as to whether the United States will consider the right to vote to be an inalienable, sacred right, no exceptions, no division.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. Should active Confederate soldiers

Should active Confederate soldiers who were engaged in treason have had the right to vote in national elections?

The preamble to our Declaration of Independence says we have the right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", yet if you are convicted of a crime those rights are curtailed if you violate a law and are incarcerated.

[Uncle Joe]

42. If you're serving time in prison, then life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are curtailed but

not stopped unless you're executed in which case the right to vote becomes moot.

I believe my post was clear.

It's a question as to whether the United States will consider the right to vote to be an inalienable, sacred right, no exceptions, no division.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. Your liberty isn't curtailed. It's removed.

Liberty is the right to exercise the rights enumerated by the constitution or available or under natural law.

If you are in the hoosegow you have no liberty. You have absolute liberty or absolute rights in the state of nature. In becoming part of society you give up some of my liberty or rights in return for other ones, like the right not to live in fear from some miscreant who is going to shoot you because he wants your cell phone, and if he does shoot and kill you the miscreant who has entered into the same social contract you me loses his right to vote while he is prison for murdering you.

[Uncle Joe]

50. You still have liberty of speech and religion, they are curtailed but not stopped unless you're in

solitary confinement, with Maine and Vermont you have the right to vote as well even if convicted of manslaughter.

Joseph Jackson was one of the millions of Americans inspired by Barack Obama's 2008 White House bid. A black man in the nation's whitest state, he coordinated voter registration drives and cast his first-ever ballot for the candidate who would become the nation's first African-American president.

And he did it all while incarcerated in a maximum-security prison, serving 19 years for manslaughter.

That's because Jackson, 52, was convicted in Maine, one of just two states that allow felons to vote from behind bars. In the U.S., nearly all convicted felons are disenfranchised during their prison sentences and, often, barred from the ballot for years after release. Sometimes, offenders lose the right to vote for life.

(snip)

For Jackson, getting involved in politics behind bars — petitioning lawmakers on prison reform, founding a chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), and casting that first ballot — put him on a path for life after prison. Released in 2013, he earned a master's degree and works on behalf of inmates and their families with the Maine Prisoner Advocacy Coalition.

(snip)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/states-rethink-prisoner-voting-rights-incarceration-rates-rise-n850406

[tymorial]

63. Like terrorists.

Regardless of ideological motivation behind their crimes.

[Kahuna7]

65. I agree with your second point...

Not the first.

[Nanjeanne]

7. I agree with his stand and it's not a problem in the many countries that also allow inmates

to vote. And Sanders commitment to voting rights in really commendable. Our justice system is so lopsided and so many more minorities are disenfranchised by it, that I really believe it’s the right thing to do.

That said, I think Sanders needs to work on his response and outline it with more background and information. I love Bernie, but he speaks as if everyone has an open mind and isn’t looking for the “gotcha” moment. He thinks people can listen and get the nuance. Unfortunately that’s not the case and i feel he really would do better in these settings if he fleshed out his answers in more detail.

[Snotcicles]

8. How did the other candidates handle that issue? nt

[JudyM]

23. Pete disagreed and Kamala wants to think more about it.

[Historic NY]

10. Wrong answer.......

when you've done your time and been released fine.

[dogman]

53. You've heard of Jim Crow laws right?

When a disproportionate prison population is a fact, realize who is being denied their right to vote.

[BlueFlorida]

11. Bernie still doesn't get the African American perspective

He thinks because a lot of unfairly convicted people are black, African Americans as a whole are somehow lenient towards crime.

In my experience, the opposite is true. African Americans are far more anti-crime than others simply because they experience it more. Again, Bernie fails to understand a major segment of the Democratic voting block.

[Uncle Joe]

15. Bernie believes that being in prison whether for 5, 10, 20 , 50 or for life is punishment for crime.

I believe (albeit it as a white man) that African Americans are anti-crime but they're also anti-disenfranchisement.

[BlueFlorida]

19. Do you have a link to a poll that shows that? nt

[Uncle Joe]

20. No, as I stated, it's my opinion. n/t

[David__77]

27. Wish I saw crosstabs in this poll...

http://m.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2018/65_oppose_voting_rights_for_felons_in_prison

I wonder where the black respondents lined up on this one.

[Uncle Joe]

32. I believe this to be a good read on the issue.

Joseph Jackson was one of the millions of Americans inspired by Barack Obama's 2008 White House bid. A black man in the nation's whitest state, he coordinated voter registration drives and cast his first-ever ballot for the candidate who would become the nation's first African-American president.

And he did it all while incarcerated in a maximum-security prison, serving 19 years for manslaughter.

That's because Jackson, 52, was convicted in Maine, one of just two states that allow felons to vote from behind bars. In the U.S., nearly all convicted felons are disenfranchised during their prison sentences and, often, barred from the ballot for years after release. Sometimes, offenders lose the right to vote for life.

(snip)

For Jackson, getting involved in politics behind bars — petitioning lawmakers on prison reform, founding a chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), and casting that first ballot — put him on a path for life after prison. Released in 2013, he earned a master's degree and works on behalf of inmates and their families with the Maine Prisoner Advocacy Coalition.

(snip)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/states-rethink-prisoner-voting-rights-incarceration-rates-rise-n850406

[Blue_Tires]

22. Well done...

He's only three years behind that establishment beltway insider and Clinton confidante Terry McAuliffe...

[Uncle Joe]

24. Do you know where Kamala stands on this issue? n/t

[David__77]

25. McAuliffe advocated prisoner voting rights?

I know he acted on restoring voting rights of those released from prison. I’m not aware of him advocating for voting rights for people in prison.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

29. Well there's that little detail. Lol.

[David__77]

45. I'm glad he acted to restore voting rights for unincarcerated people.

I just don't think it's the case that he also advocated for or extended the franchise to people in prison.

[Kurt V.]

30. the only inmates that shouldn't vote are ppl with life sentences or on death row.

the rest will eventually return to society. why not start the integration back with a societal act.
also they should have s say so in the society they will return to.

[Uncle Joe]

43. "Wrongful execution"

(snip)

A number of people are claimed to have been innocent victims of the death penalty.[3][4] Newly available DNA evidence has allowed the exoneration and release of more than 20 death row inmates since 1992 in the United States,[5] but DNA evidence is available in only a fraction of capital cases. Others have been released on the basis of weak cases against them, sometimes involving prosecutorial misconduct; resulting in acquittal at retrial, charges dropped, or innocence-based pardons. The Death Penalty Information Center (U.S.) has published a list of 10 inmates "executed but possibly innocent".[6] Of all executions in the United States, 144 prisoners have been exonerated while on death row. [7]

(snip)

Joe Arridy (April 15, 1915 – January 6, 1939) was a mentally disabled American man executed for rape and murder and posthumously granted a pardon. Arridy was sentenced to death for the murder and rape of a 15-year-old schoolgirl from Pueblo, Colorado. He confessed to murdering the girl and assaulting her sister. Due to the sensational nature of the crime precautions were taken to keep him from being hanged by vigilante justice. His sentence was executed after multiple stays on January 6, 1939, in the Colorado gas chamber in the state penitentiary in Canon City, Colorado. Arridy was the first Colorado prisoner posthumously pardoned in January 2011 by Colorado Governor Bill Ritter, a former district attorney, after research had shown that Arridy was very likely not in Pueblo when the crime happened and had been coerced into confessing. Among other things, Arridy had an IQ of 46, which was equal to the mental age of a 6-year-old. He did not even understand that he was going to be executed, and played with a toy train that the warden, Roy Best, had given to him as a present. A man named Frank Aguilar had been executed in 1937 in the Colorado gas chamber for the same crime for which Arridy ended up also being executed. Arridy's posthumous pardon in 2011 was the first such pardon in Colorado history. A press release from the governor's office stated, "[A]n overwhelming body of evidence indicates the 23-year-old Arridy was innocent, including false and coerced confessions, the likelihood that Arridy was not in Pueblo at the time of the killing, and an admission of guilt by someone else." The governor also pointed to Arridy's intellectual disabilities. The governor said, “Granting a posthumous pardon is an extraordinary remedy. But the tragic conviction of Mr. Arridy and his subsequent execution on Jan. 6, 1939, merit such relief based on the great likelihood that Mr. Arridy was, in fact, innocent of the crime for which he was executed, and his severe mental disability at the time of his trial and execution."

George Stinney, a 14-year old black boy, was electrocuted in South Carolina in 1944 for the murder of Betty June Binnicker, age 11, as well as Mary Emma Thames, age 8. The arrest occurred on March 23, 1944 in Alcolu, inside of Clarendon County, South Carolina. Apparently, the two girls rode their bikes past Stinney’s house where they asked him and his sister about a certain type of flower; after this encounter, the girls went missing and were found dead in a ditch the following morning. After an hour of interrogation by the officers, a deputy stated that Stinney confessed to the murder. The confession explained that Stinney wanted to have intercourse with Betty, so he wanted to kill Mary to get Betty alone; however, both girls fought back and that is when he killed both of them. This case still remains a very controversial one due to the fact that the judicial process showed severe shortcomings. An example can be made out of this case by showing how the judicial system does not always properly orchestrate.[22] He was the youngest person executed in the United States. More than 70 years later, a judge threw out the conviction, calling it a "great injustice."[23]

Carlos DeLuna was executed in Texas in December 1989. Subsequent investigations cast strong doubt upon DeLuna's guilt for the murder of which he had been convicted.[24][25] Carlos DeLuna was executed in 1989 for stabbing a gas station clerk to death. His execution came about six years after the crime was committed. The trial ended up attracting local attention, but it was never suggested that an innocent man was about to be punished while the actual killer went free. DeLuna was found blocks away from the crime scene with $149 in his pocket. From that point on, it went downhill for the young Carlos DeLuna. A wrongful eyewitness testimony is what formed the case against him. Unfortunately, DeLuna’s previous criminal record was very much used against him.[26] The real killer, Carlos Hernandez, was a repeat violent offender who actually had a history of slashing women with his unique buck knife, not to mention he looked very similar to Carlos DeLuna. Hernandez did not keep quiet about his murder; apparently he went around bragging about the killing of Lopez. In 1999, Hernandez was imprisoned for attacking his neighbor with a knife.[27]

(snip)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

[Kurt V.]

47. I'm against the death penalty 100%. so i should have said not likely to return to society.

a line has to be drawn somewhere and for good reasons

[Uncle Joe]

64. Well if they are executed the right to vote becomes moot.

If they're not, they still could give most valuable insight in regards to humane prison reform.

[stonecutter357]

31. BS thinks it's OK for Pedophile , rapist and murders to vote ?

[David__77]

46. Lot of Democrats advocate for that.

Plenty of Democrats advocate for restoring the voting rights of pedophiles, rapists and murderers who served their sentences.

A smaller number advocate for allowing them to vote while in prison.

Both groups advocate for allowing pedophiles, rapists and murderers to vote.

[dogman]

54. So there are acceptable crimes and unacceptble crimes?

Who is the arbiter? You, me, how about a t-Rumpy?

[stonecutter357]

55. I am not ok with a Pedophile ever voting ...

[dogman]

56. So you are the arbiter?

Congratulations on your self-appointment.

[stonecutter357]

57. the arbiter is the Pedophile ... not Me........

[calimary]

44. Yes. I agree.

republi-CONS DO have the right to vote...

[TheFarseer]

48. I think

This is a losing issue for Sanders. I’m still leaning Bernie, but he’s going to get smacked over the head with this.

[vsrazdem]

51. I give him a lot of credit for sticking with his convictions, even if it is not popular.

[tymorial]

58. Men and women who have served their time or are honoring their parole agreement...

I can accept that argument and would even go so far as to support it in most cases.

I am a huge supporter of prison reform. I don't believe in the death penalty. I believe we need to offer more education, training and rehabilitation services to all of our inmates. I believe we need to reduce incarceration rates for non-violent drug offenses. I believe solitary confinement should only be used in the most extreme circumstances and even then for short periods of time. Our current prison system is the reason for recidivism.

Suggesting however that all prison inmates should be allowed to vote, including terrorists who committed acts designed to interrupt and change our way of life through murder and mayhem, that is a bridge too far. The notion that a terrorist should have the same right to vote as those they harmed, those whose lives were destroyed through hate, is quite frankly disgusting.

As if I didnt any more reasons to not support him. Tsarnaev and slippery slope. GMAFB

[Uncle Joe]

60. Allowing terrorists to vote despite their vile transgressions undercuts whatever

political or hate filled reasoning they used for committing those crimes in the first place not only to the civilized world that already sees them as crimes but for those parts of the world that doesn't.

It is the United States unequivocally staking claim to the moral high ground to the entire world; not just the parts that agree with us but for those areas that don't.

[brooklynite]

61. You know what the least effective way of restoring voting rights is?

Not getting elected.

Fringe positions like this are going to put a crimp in Sander's ability to implement any policies.

[Tarc]

62. No, Bernie, they don't. Focus on things that matter and not this dumb bullshit

Many freedoms are stripped away from incarcerated felons, voting is just one of them. When their debt to society is paid off, then they should get all of their rights returned, including voting.

If Bernie is fervent about voting rights, I'd like to see what his thoughts are on the increasing scarcity of voting places in urban areas and other traditional Democratic strongholds, as well as the proliferation of voter ID laws targeting same.