Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumNYT reports on decades long Russia-Sanders connection
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Exclusive: For Bernie Sanders, his 1988 trip to the Soviet Union was an effort to build diplomatic ties. For the Soviets, it was the start of a years-long propaganda effort to exploit his antiwar agenda, documents obtained by The New York Times show. https://nyti.ms/2Ip6mWg
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
dem4decades
(11,296 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NCProgressive
(1,315 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
peoli
(3,111 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NCProgressive
(1,315 posts)I meant the Russian archives.
Plus, I won't be looking at it with doting devotee eyes.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
TomCADem
(17,387 posts)I guess Bernie's trip to Russia must have made quite an impression since he has frequently criticized NATO as a waste of money and has even suggested that Russia be included in "NATO 2.0."
https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/11/19/sanders-wants-new-nato-with-russia
NATO and Russia have a complicated relationship, as you might imagine, and Russia was strongly opposed when Albania and Croatia joined the alliance in 2009. So suggesting that NATO member states team up in a similar alliance with Russia is, to put it mildly, outside the mainstream. Sanders spokeswoman didnt give additional details on how the alliance would work and whether member nations would commit to defending each other.
The United States joined with other North Atlantic countries in 1949 specifically to contain the Soviet Unions then-growing regional hegemony. The Soviet Union responded by joining with Eastern European nations to form the now-defunct Warsaw Pact. NATO member nations commit to defending each others security; Article 5 of its charter says that an attack on one member nation will be treated as an attack on all of them. It has only been invoked once, after the 9/11 attacks.
In the speech, Sanders also deviated from the remarks as prepared and erroneously referred to NATO as the North American Treaty Organization. NATO stands for North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,787 posts)no point to NATO.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
thesquanderer
(11,989 posts)Here's how Sanders' statement started:
He was not talking about having Russia join NATO. He was talking about working with Russia (and Arab League nations) and NATO nations to form a new organization to combat terrorism. Nothing there about having Russia join NATO, or about doing away with NATO.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Celerity
(43,408 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
thesquanderer
(11,989 posts)The part you highlighted still depends on the context of the immediately preceding sentence.
In that context, the following sentence would mean that the new organization would be an expanded coalition including, not only the members of NATO, but also Russia, and would also work with (or perhaps include) members of the Arab league.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Celerity
(43,408 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
thesquanderer
(11,989 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Celerity
(43,408 posts)AND that now includes Russia is exactly what he's talking about.
Are you you a proponent of including Russia into an Article 5-type collective defence scheme?
Article 5 is literally the beating heart and soul of NATO.
Dont be fooled: Russia is still NATOs greatest challenge
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/dont-be-fooled-russia-is-still-natos-greatest-challenge/
Seventy years after NATOs birth, the Alliance is still confronting an existential threat to its east, several defense and foreign affairs ministers said on December 3. Although French President Emmanuel Macron has made waves by suggesting that terrorism, not Russia, was the biggest threat facing NATO today, the defense ministers from Estonia and Lithuania were clear that they still see Moscow as their biggest challenge.
Russia has shown with its actions that it is a serious security threat, Estonian defense minister Jüri Luik said during a panel discussion on Baltic and Black sea security during the NATO engages event in London on December 3. For Lithuania, [Russia] is the only external existential threat we have, added Lithuanian defense minister Raimundas Karoblis. While Macron has a legitimate concern in preventing terrorism in Europe, Luik argued that unlike terrorism, Russia is the existential threat because it is a nation state. NATO, he added, is the only organization that can viably deter Russian aggression against its neighbors.
Both ministers praised NATOs efforts to protect the Baltic states from Russian attack and show Moscow that the Alliance would not leave them undefended. Lithuania has never had such a great number of guarantees and allies as we have now, Karoblis said. Luik warned, however, that persistence is key to staving off Russian aggression. If we are serious in our actions, if we are clear and concise in our messaging, then the threat is quite low, he explained. But if we are weak, if we are wobbly, then the threat can go up.
Both Karoblis and Luik suggested that NATO needs to do more to shore up its Baltic defense, including larger exercises to show how we bring in additional troops if they are necessary, as Luik suggested. Karoblis highlighted the need for more precise defense planning, a wish that has become controversial after a reported Turkish attempt to block new military plans for the Baltics and Poland until NATO recognizes Syrian Kurdish groups as terrorist organizations. Despite the supposed Turkish opposition, neither Luik nor Karoblis were concerned that the proposed plans would be blocked more than temporarily. The discussions are going on all the time, Luik explained, adding that if we dont find a compromise here, we hopefully will find it a bit later. But I am absolutely sure we will find a compromise. Karoblis promised we will find a solution to this.
Black Sea instability
snip
Russias Next Land Grab Wont Be in an Ex-Soviet State. It Will Be in Europe.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/15/russias-next-land-grab-wont-be-in-an-ex-soviet-state-it-will-be-in-europe-putin-saakashvili-sweden-finland-arctic-northern-sea-route-baltics-nato/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
thesquanderer
(11,989 posts)A NEW organization that is SIMILAR to NATO, by definition, cannot simultaneously also BE NATO.
Nowhere was there ANY indication of wanting to do away with the CURRENT NATO.
So this would be a different organization, similar to NATO in that it would be an alliance of numerous countries, but in this case, it would be a different alliance, for a different purpose, the purpose of coordinating efforts against terrorism.
It would not replace NATO nor its Article 5, and from reading the quote, I don't know where anyone would get the idea that it would.
It's not complicated. I'm just sticking to exactly what was said in the quote. Instead of adding things he didn't say.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cha
(297,290 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
peoli
(3,111 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
lostnfound
(16,180 posts)The masters of the universe like to have it their way.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
sheshe2
(83,788 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to FreepFryer (Reply #5)
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FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
peoli
(3,111 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
brush
(53,787 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
brush
(53,787 posts)schooled in their formative years to fear socialism, the USSR, Red China, the iron curtain, failed communist communes, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc. Many know better now but millions of voters still retain those views and fearsand they vote heavily.
What I don't understand is how, Sanders, a grown-ass man, who has lived in this country all his life can so misread the zeitgeist of the nation and mislead his supporters into thinking that this country will elect a socialist when there are still millionscwho see socialism as toxic and will not vote for himespecially now when there is no economic downturn. It's just not going to happen. His naivete is stunning. Why do you think trump and the repugs keep pushing for Sanders? They know the country is not going to elect a socialist so they want him to be trump's opponent.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)rock the boat that much. Someone who believes in capitalism and is willing to turn a blind eye to it's cruelties.
Bryant
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
brush
(53,787 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 9, 2020, 01:22 PM - Edit history (1)
are capitalist countries, right?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)But yes, Democratic Socialist countries are also Capitalist - but they avoid the cruelty of capitalism by having a strong regulatory framework and strong social programs.
Bryant
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
brush
(53,787 posts)few years back of labeling himself a democratic socialist instead of social democrat when he switched from just plain,self-avowed socialist to use the Democratic Party to run for president.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Maru Kitteh
(28,340 posts)ARE SOME PEOPLE GOING DEAF OR SOMETHING? IS THIS A COVID-19 THING?
IT'S LIKE A TREND.
why
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NCProgressive
(1,315 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Just_Vote_Dem
(2,808 posts)The feeling you get is that he was naive and easily fooled.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)relations, politics, and history. Otherwise, why extol virtues of communism during the Cold War? And what a lack of judgement!
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
onetexan
(13,042 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mcar
(42,334 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
awesomerwb1
(4,268 posts)it would be easier for you to get your point across comrade.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
brush
(53,787 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
dalton99a
(81,515 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
HarlanPepper
(2,042 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
He voted against gun control in the past too.
Words are another story
Not a fan of Reason, but those are his quotes:
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
sanders had voted against sanctions on Russia more than once
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(145,303 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NCProgressive
(1,315 posts)It will take a while to go through it all
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mcar
(42,334 posts)Also, not bashing. Reporting on.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)None of this is brand new; politicians have always sought to smear journalism they didnt like. Whats new is that the attack is no longer about this or that story, but about journalism itself. Its a challenge to the very notion of an independent accounting of facts.
https://www.niemanlab.org/2017/12/the-firehose-of-falsehood/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Me.
(35,454 posts)Time you finally caught on NY Times
and thank you mcar...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hekate
(90,714 posts)Nuff said
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
evertonfc
(1,713 posts)especially some small town mayor? Good grief. This guy writes his own ads
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DonaldsRump
(7,715 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)And who doubts the republicans already have this and were waiting. Putin, you know.
Pete, Amy, Beto and most importantly representative Clyburn are owed a debt by all Americans.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Happy Hoosier
(7,314 posts)I mean, It's possible to be a Marxist and denounce the obvious authoritarian perversion that is the Soviet and Cuban models.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
pampango
(24,692 posts)A Russian asset he is not. He is not anti-Russia nor should he be. He is anti-authoritarian government in Moscow led by Putin.
Many presidents try to reset relations with Russia which, given their nuclear arsenal, is not a bad idea.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Politicub
(12,165 posts)before it collapsed. It doesnt mean he wants the same connection with modern Russia.
And it made sense (in Bernie land) at the time because the Soviet Union was a socialist state. A failed one, though. It had already devolved into totalitarianism by 1988.
Either way, its not a good look. Republicans seem to be okay with ties to the current Russian regime, so they may not care.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
onetexan
(13,042 posts)"socialist", and even uninformed Independents will be scared off. We will have another 4 yrs of the Idiot.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden