Decimated Ad

[Donkees]

Mar 4, 2020

"I've been a union autoworker since 2008. The community has been decimated by trade deals. Only one candidate for president has consistently opposed every disastrous trade deal. And that candidate is Bernie Sanders." - Sean Crawford

[Hoyt]

1. Unfortunately, treating poor foreign workers as scabs isn't going to help.

[democrattotheend]

4. It did in 2016

Bernie won Michigan because of anger there over bad trade deals. He may win again for the same reason, though Biden is probably stronger there than Hillary was.

[Hoyt]

6. Thanks to Sanders and Warren bashing Obama/Clinton right up to Nov 2016,

we got trump. trump reneged on trade deals and imposed tariffs, part or Sanders and Warren’s plan. It didn’t work so well.

I don’t care for America First, xenophobia, condemning poor foreign workers, etc.

[Celerity]

7. Warren was bashing Clinton right up until November, huh? You should delete this bollocks

you said

Thanks to Sanders and Warren bashing Obama/Clinton right up to Nov 2016,

well, not so fast....



Elizabeth Warren teams up with Hillary Clinton to bash Donald Trump in Ohio

Mon 27 Jun 2016 23.13 BST






Clinton took the stage with the progressive senator from Massachusetts, a show of Democratic unity as Republicans remain reluctant to embrace Donald Trump

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/27/hillary-clinton-elizabeth-warren-ohio-speech-donald-trump

Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren used their first joint appearance on the campaign trail to make a decidedly populist appeal to voters in the battleground state of Ohio, and to cast Donald Trump as a narcissist less concerned with working-class Americans than his own profitability.

Before a raucous crowd of nearly 2,000, cheers reverberating across the half-dome of Cincinnati’s historic Union Terminal, Clinton took the stage with the senator from Massachusetts, a hero to many progressive voters. As Republicans remain reluctant to embrace Trump, it was a show of Democratic unity.

Warren laid into the presumptive GOP nominee, characterizing him with a now familiar line as a “small, insecure money-grubber who fights for no one but himself”.

“I’m here today because I’m with her,” she said, as Clinton stood by her side. “She doesn’t whine. She doesn’t run to Twitter to call her opponents fat pigs or dummies.

“Hillary Clinton will be the next president of the United States because she knows what it takes to beat a thin-skinned bully who is driven by greed and hate.”

snip


I have no idea why people put up instantly debunked lies

you must think google doesn't exist

[Hoyt]

8. She attacked both Obama and Clinton on trade. One of main reasons for trump.

[Celerity]

9. your first reply was a lie, pure and simple, as I just well documented you should delete it

do that I delete my replies so this can all just be gone

[Hoyt]

10. No it's not. Warren was relentless on trade, and misrepresented key facts right

into October 2016. trump took advantage of the trade issue, and the xenophobia it created. So, here we are.

[Celerity]

11. so moving the goalpost, and also playing spurious games by trying to draw comparisons

between critiques of poorly written bad free trade agreements (a stance the majority of Congressional Democrats took btw) and then equating that to either aiding Trump or adopting a Trumpian philosophy. That is also pure tosh. Under your plazzy standard, over half of the Democratic members of Congress where 'bashing Clinton'.

[Hoyt]

12. Poorly written? They were written under UN/WHO rules. I guess it wasn't punitive enough for

poor foreign workers and those who benefit from trade like those working here for Toyota, BMW, Honda, Mercedes, Seimans, AirBus, VW, Bridgestone, Bayer, and hundreds more.

I guess we can't send any jobs to Mexico, Asia, Middle East, etc., in return.

Yes, it helped give us trump.

[Celerity]

13. I'm all in for fair trade, but not spun up deals like the defeated (w/ massive Democratic help) TPP

The TPP was a bad deal, and not just because of the horrid ISDS and patent evergreening provisions.

I refuse to be gaslit on this. It also is outrageous to see opposition to TPP equated or insinuated or linked in any way to posit a form (or actual) of tacit support for Trump and Sanders. You can absolutely not be for either of those two and still think the TPP (and its defeated European version here, the TTIP) were a bad deals. Support for deals like these is partially (the percentage is up for debate but is far from inconsequential) why we have such discontent here in our nation, discontent that just further adds to the latent and overt sexism, racism, misogyny, homophobia, and general hate that monsters like Trump tapped into. It just gave him another arrow in his quiver of poison for his mob.

The TPP also would have been a fundamental driver for further wealth inequality, here and globally, and wealth inequality is the number one interlocked statistic when it comes to the well-being of a society on basically all levels of measurement.


Why TPP Is a Bad Deal for America and American Workers

BY JOSEPH STIGLITZ

http://rooseveltinstitute.org/why-tpp-bad-deal-america-and-american-workers/


the whole series

Tricks of the Trade Deal: Six Big Problems with the Trans-Pacific Partnership

http://rooseveltinstitute.org/tricks-trade-deal-six-big-problems-trans-pacific-partnership/



How to Tell TPP Is a Bad Deal

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-to-tell-tpp-is-a-bad_b_8914388



9 Ways the TPP Is Bad for Developing Countries

https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/07/07/9-ways-the-tpp-is-bad-for-developing-countries/



The Trans-Pacific Partnership Is Unlikely to Be a Good Deal for American Workers

https://www.epi.org/publication/tpp-unlikely-to-be-good-deal-for-american-workers/



The TPP has the potential for real harm

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-16/verrender-the-tpp-has-the-potential-for-real-harm/6321538


Ending the corporate power grab of Investor-State Dispute Settlement

https://www.citizen.org/topic/globalization-trade/corporate-power-expanded-isds/



How trade deals like TPP fail the global poor

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/11/6/9680538/tpp-development-trade-poverty



Robert Reich takes on the Trans-Pacific Partnership

How economic inequality harms societies | Richard Wilkinson

[Hoyt]

14. Robert Reich -- author of NAFTA -- who became a critic when the Clintons ignored his BS.

Warren was criticizing Obama, saying the agreement would not be released for 5 years after ratification. That was a lie, because the agreement was already published and by law had to be release several months before the ratification vote.

Warren helped defeat Clinton with her misinformed understanding of the agreement, and the 2500+ agreements similar to it that have been passed since 1959.

Like I said, trade has been good to a lot of people in this country, including the millions employed here by foreign corporations, and we were hurt when trump adopted Sanders' and Warren's views on trade to win the election.



Treating poor foreign workers like scabs for votes is despicable when trump or anyone else does it. Similarly, making enemies with foreign countries keeps us at war.

[Celerity]

17. Warren did not help defeat Clinton, she campaigned hard for her, and again the majority

of Democrats in Congress opposed TPP so your 'enemies list' needs to be vastly widened to include the majority of our Party, given your definition of what constitutes hurting Clinton and aiding Trump.

Also, it is dodgy false framing to try and insinuate that critics of bad deals are 'against trade'. That is preposterous. I see the same thing done by the RW when people espouse regulating capitalism to a higher degree. They are then instantly and falsely smeared as being 'against capitalism', which again is preposterous. Sweden has a more robust capitalist element than the US does when measured by many metrics (productivity per hour worked, trade balance, upward social mobility, innovation levels, overall business friendly environment, medium (not the skewed average per capita based off GDP) per capita income, etc etc etc.), BUT we also highly regulate the capitalist sector as well. The two are not only NOT mutually exclusive, but in fact work hand in hand synergistically.

finally

you said

Treating poor foreign workers like scabs for votes is despicable when trump or anyone else does it. Similarly, making enemies with foreign countries keeps us at war.

which is a pure non sequitur for this part

Treating poor foreign workers like scabs for votes is despicable when trump or anyone else does it.

As that not literally has nothing to do with my positions and I NEVER would condone such actions.

and then....

This part

Similarly, making enemies with foreign countries keeps us at war.

Which is OTT bollocks, as it is patently false. It it is a classic false dilemma fallacy, as it is ridiculous to try to say the only choices are agree to a shit agreement or there will be war.

Also, you willfully forget that the very same type of agreement (TTIP) was soundly defeated here in the EU. Are all the nations here now also on a course for war?

[Hoyt]

19. Sorry, I disagree. One can't criticize Obama/Clinton right up to October 2016 and not impact GE.

Especially, when the criticism played right into trump, Russian, and radical Sanders' supporters plan.

[Celerity]

20. bollocks, as I have detailed in great detail already, let the other posters decide who is right and

who is wrong. You simply cannot pull out something (the defeat of the odious TPP) that obviously you did not like, and then try to erect a shoddy and logically faulty construct to try and toss blame on one person (in this case Warren) whilst not extending that out to huge swathes of our Party, who also opposed it. The very foundations of your entire set of arguments are a house built upon a base of sand, so easily washed away by even a small tide of logic and factually-based analysis.

If you really think you hold the whip-hand in all this, and truly think that Warren was one of several principal drivers behind Trump's election, then make an OP.

Discuss it at length in this Primaries section, as she is, as of now, still running. You clearly think, via your own repeated words and insinuations in this colloquy, that she is a Trump aider and a Hillary blocker. I profoundly disagree with those charges, and find it to be borderline Democratic public figure bashing, but hey, that is just me.

[denem]

16. Bookmarking

I keep running out of superlatives so ... good work

[Celerity]

18. thanks so much!!!!

[Hoyt]

2. Plus, where I live a lot of people have good jobs with Toyota, BMW, Honda, Siemens, etc.

There are are least two sides to trade.

[MyNameGoesHere]

3. I consistently oppose flesh eating bacteria.

I've never really did anything about it, but damn I oppose it.

[blm]

15. ✔️

[showblue22]

5. Bernie's trade policies resemble Trumps

Bernie even admitted that he and Trump do share a lot of the same trade policies. People in these areas got a taste of it with Trump and it is now very unpopular to be against trade. I know. I love in MI.