I am not cool with socialism.

[boston bean]

So that makes at least one Duer, long time democrat who is not ok with it.

I am not cool with 60 Trillion dollar cost for free programs where there is no way to pay for it except to tax us through the gills.

The outcome of such makes one a slave to the state to make it work.

Sorry, not for me, but thank you.

[AncientGeezer]

1. Makes 2

[Girard442]

2. Hmmm... Must be hard to get from place to place using only pay-as-you-go roads.

[pnwmom]

5. That's not socialism. This is socialism, from the Democratic Socialists of America:

https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/

We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them.

Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives.

It's not about providing government services through taxes; all governments do that, including capitalist countries. (And the Nordic countries Bernie loves are all capitalist countries, not socialist.)

[Girard442]

17. "Socialism" is defined as any government program I don't like.

"Not Socialism" is defined as any government program I do like.

Leads to an utterly sterile and pointless debate.

[pnwmom]

19. Bernie is purposely, pointlessly, branding himself with a brand that millions of Americans abhor.

And I wouldn't care except I'm afraid if he were at the top of the ticket he'd be handing R's ammunition to use against vulnerable Congressional Democrats in swing states and districts.

Like the Democrats in Florida who now have to explain to their constituents his recent interview about Castro.

[Progressive2020]

47. Nope

There are different kinds of socialisms and socialists, and Sanders is not the kind that you just posted about above. It is a Straw Man Argument. Sanders does not want to nationalize the steel industry and get rid of the private sector. These things he is being accused of are false, and if people keep spreading these false ideas, then the Republicans will use them should Sanders be the Democratic Nominee.

So, maybe stop doing work for the Republicans and stop spreading fear propaganda about Sanders and demonizing the term "socialist". Bernie is pretty much an FDR New Deal type. Labels can be misleading, and Sanders is basically similar to FDR and his followers on a policy basis. There is a real chance that Sanders will be the nominee, and we need to avoid wounding someone politically when they might end up being the 2020 Democratic Candidate.

[pnwmom]

48. He calls himself a Democratic Socialist. That is the site of Democratic Socialists of America,

and the party is STRONGLY supporting Bernie on its home page. If this is a "wound," it's entirely SELF-INFLICTED.

Good luck arguing that he isn't "that kind" of Democratic Socialist.

https://www.dsausa.org/democratic-left/building-dsa-with-bernie/

Bernie Sanders is the first viable national candidate in living memory who identifies as a democratic socialist, and his campaign has already mobilized masses of working people. By endorsing Sanders, DSA committed to playing a key role on the national stage. Rather than limit ourselves to funneling volunteers to Sanders field offices, we launched an Independent Expenditure (IE) campaign to go toe-to-toe with the right wing and corporate Democrats. The IE gives DSA the ability to set its own strategy and dedicate its full resources to the cause as long as it does not coordinate with the campaign.

https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/

We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them.

Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives.

[NurseJackie]

123. Oooo... the GOP will have so much to work with against Bernie.

Say hello to another four or more years of Trump.

[Fresh_Start]

31. the national interstate system was created by democrats and republicans

not by socialism.

People stealing credit for other peoples hard work, piss me off.

I checked there were ZERO socialists and ZERO democratic socialists in congress when the New Deal was enacted. So people claiming democratic socialist credit for that are stealing credit for other peoples work again.

[Girard442]

34. A vast major institution was created by using tax revenues, that would be free for all users.

Nah, you can drive from coast-to-coast on highways buit by the government and that's not socialism, but God forbid a government program might save a baby somewhere from dying of pneumonia. Nazis!

[Fresh_Start]

36. I've voted myself increases in taxes every election

and I don't steal other people's work.

I never needed to call myself a socialist

[Tweedy]

58. Labels

Pooling the risk to protect all
Can be called insurance
When the government does it, we call it socialism

It is not stealing someone else's work.

That is plutocracy
Kleptocracy
Feudalism

Labels can hang one up. The GOP has been happily playing doublespeak for years. With both hands in the till, this president complains about socialism.

The thieves are already in the White House, friend.

None of the Democratic candidates are proposing theft. Many are proposing saner approaches to basic insurance.

Right now, we socialize the risk (have you seen how much $$$ the federal reserve is pumping into the overnight loan market?) & privatize the profits. That, too, is socialism (that kind IS horrible, yes).

Should we not stop giving already very wealthy folks "free stuff" and design rational investments for our future?

[Fresh_Start]

59. nope, that is not what socialism is

look at the definition of socialism

just because you want to view the public works of a democratic society as socialism...doesn't make them socialism.

[Tweedy]

66. Ok, then

Since I earned a degree in political science, friend, I have most assuredly looked up the definition of socialism 😁

How is that for credential-ing?

Why are you talking about public works? Not trying to build any monuments here.

I think perhaps you have had a very long day, since I doubt you want to close our public schools.

Sit down and take a load off.

We are going to defeat the unindicted co-conspirator. I do believe we could defeat him with a potted plant 🌱 !

[Fresh_Start]

68. public works...definition

structures, as roads, dams, or post offices, paid for by government funds for public use.

[Tweedy]

91. I know

And I wasn't talking about buildings.

Perhaps you should look up socialism?

Or just talk to a Dane, allegedly the happiest folks out there, who live with very little corruption and gobs of socialism.

Nobody in this primary wants to own the means of production.

Social security (not a public work) is a socialist program, as is Medicare.

This is such a silly argument, really.

No-one wants to steal from you but the confidence tricksters.

We do, however, want to create a more perfect union where folks don't die in their 40's because their healthcare company thinks medicine is a business.

It is not. Medicine is a profession.

We need engineers desperately. What do we do to help the bright, eager minds wanting to endure that education?

Very little

In what world does stealing futures make sense? Unfortunately, our world right now.
This is true even though no normally empathetic person would treat his or her nearest and dearest in such a sadistic fashion.

That way is perilous for even the hardest, most nose to the grindstone of us.

We simply have more sense than that.

[Progressive2020]

3. Talking Points

Those will be good Talking Points for Republicans should Sanders win the Democratic Nomination. Sanders is not proposing anything more radical than FDR did, no matter whether you call the policies "socialist", or not. Social Security, Medicare, Food Stamps are all programs that have been called "socialist". Also, Medicare For All saves money. The savings offsets any tax change, so the net result is lower costs for Working People and the Middle Class.

[pnwmom]

6. He should call himself an FDR Democrat then, not a socialist. But he loves the brand

that millions hate.

[Tweedy]

21. Looks like he is stuck in the 1960's, sadly

Senator Sanders could help himself out ever so much by ceasing his false equivalency.

After this administration, how is there anyone left alive who still believes the GOP and the Democratic Party are equivalently bad? If Bernie actually believes it, we do need to nominate someone else. That would demonstrate an inability to grasp reality.

Senator Sanders needs to emerge from his dreams of being a 1960's revolutionary and recognize in this 2020 moment, he could be the man we need. He does see our problems with acuity, but he drapes everything in the language of a 1960's revolutionary.

Alas, so long as he continues to throw out 1060's throwbacks attacking "the democratic establishment," which by definition means Speaker Pelosi, for goodness sake!, he will continue to alienate democrats everywhere.

We cannot afford such absurdity. This really is not a tough call.

Yet, it always should be said, even if Bernie arrives in bell bottoms and madras, intoning Jefferson Airplane he would still be infinitely preferable to the unindicted co-conspirator we have now.

It would just be so much easier for folks to remember this salient point if the good senator would cease his false equivalency.

[Skidmore]

29. Stuck in the Sixties

and still fancying himself a guerilla. Wrong image for this century. Anachronistic.

[pnwmom]

39. Thanks for a great post -- down to the last two paragraphs.

He could make it so much easier, but he chooses not to . . .

[Progressive2020]

49. I Do Not Disagree

It would be better if Bernie called himself an FDR Democrat. But Bernie is a sort of stubborn no-nonsense kind of guy. I do not think he is going to change his label after having lived with it for so many years. So he is certainly not perfect, but who is?

[pnwmom]

50. If he gets elected President, fine. But my great fear is he will lose to Trump AND

,by purposely smearing his socialist brand all over the party, cause enough down-ticket losses for us that we lose our House majority.

[Gore1FL]

93. You can literally substitute any candidate's name in that sentence and be as credible.

Speculation like this is what gave us such hits as "Obama isn't electable."

[pnwmom]

99. No, not true. No one else hands the R's the socialist weapon to shoot them with. n/t

[Gore1FL]

103. "Socialist Weapon"? They called Hillary a Socialist.

They'd call Bloomberg a Socialist.

It's used as a scare word for people who don't own dictionaries. We should not base our candidate on the illiteracy of the other party.

[pnwmom]

105. Hillary and Bloomberg didn't hand them the weapon by branding themselves as socialists

and could defend themselves against the claim.

Bernie is a proud socialist. So some of his supporters are reduced to saying he's not really a socialist, he's an FDR Democrat. That's what he should call himself then.

[Gore1FL]

109. The people that are swayed by this aren't going to vote Democratic anyway.

Going to the center never works. What works is excitement.

Sanders obviously has momentum. I don't know how that translates through super Tuesday. Who gets my vote for the nomination is unknowable until after that. I have not been convinced by any of the Sanders naysayers to vote for their candidate. The arguments that I hear against him are all gut feelings, prophecies, 1980 Republican talking points, and assumptions. There's never data.

If there are actually fence-sitters in 2020, we better assume they are for Trump. Our strength is turnout, not convincing the Susan Collins of the larger electorate.

[pnwmom]

111. He had his strength in caucuses last time, and 2/3 of these events were caucuses.

Only one primary -- tiny, white NH. We'll see how he does on Super Tuesday. Otherwise all this talk about momentum is just an effort at a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon.

[Moderateguy]

82. How will a stubborn guy work with Congress?

There is a reason that he barely has a handful of friends in Congress AFTER spending 30 years in Washington. How does he work with Congress to get his legislation passed given the amount of compromise that will be needed to get it enacted.

[joethedrummer]

9. No, sorry

All I'm hearing if free, free, free! No reason to have hope that a self-described democratic socialist will bring the democratic party to uphold it's ideals, it's impossible! Sanders is an idealist, we need a pragmatist just like Clinton, 2016 is direct evidence of that. If we run someone just as centrist and reasonable we will no doubt win in 2020, ignore the democratic exercises of the first three states and all the citizens involved, doesn't matter!

[rockfordfile]

16. Why are you trolling?

[joethedrummer]

18. It kind of feels like a majority on here are trolling the democratic front-runner

Falling for Republican talking points, responding with shallow critiques, "That is false...end of discussion", I am not trolling, it is satire, i think, who knows? My point, convince me why second place is better then first, i'll be here waiting.

[Cha]

122. It's called vetting in the Primary after 3 states..

who are you calling "trolls", joethedrummer?

[ehrnst]

134. +10000

[rzemanfl]

37. Welcome to DU. BTW, Hilary won the popular vote and Drumpf won the electoral college

by cheating with Russia's help. n/t

[joethedrummer]

75. Bernie won the popular vote in IOWA

but that doesn't seem to matter this time around.

[rzemanfl]

81. What's your point? Iowa was about delegates.

Have a good evening bro.

[joethedrummer]

86. What's your point? USA is about delegates

Pointing to Clinton winning the popular vote and Trump the electoral college....kinda sucks for democracy. Have a good one too my dude.

[rzemanfl]

88. You ignored the part of my reply about cheating and Russia, dude. n/t

[joethedrummer]

95. Yeah and they are at it again!

I hope we can combat it this time around. Not great to see the news tag Sanders along with Trump without the caveat that Russia clearly wants Trump to win the GE. And with no real of action as to how to fight it, just it's happening! It's happening!

[rzemanfl]

98. That we can agree on, but they used Bernie in 2016 as well.

Fooled him twice?

[joethedrummer]

117. We will see...n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

4. So, are you okay with people in the richest country in the world...

having to go on GoFundMe to be able to afford to pay for insulin, or chemotherapy? Or being in debt until they're 40 to be able to afford a university education? Most countries manage to have universal healthcare without making their citizens "slaves to the state"; many countries also manage to have free university education without making their citizens slaves to the state.

[boston bean]

38. No I am not. And socialism is not the answer.

[Loki Liesmith]

46. There are multipayer solutions for universal healthcare.

See Germany or Switzerland.

[Spider Jerusalem]

57. Single-payer solutions deliver greater efficiency at lower cost though.

See for instance the UK and Canada.

[Loki Liesmith]

72. That's debatable

Efficiency defined in average unit cost per unit of service delivered? Because that’s only one kind of efficiency and it only measures the central tendency of the distribution. Long tailed distributions of costs and service typologies are not well captured in this metric.

[Blue_true]

61. Students in Sweden come out of college with an average of $20,000 in debt, in the USA,

that average is $23,500. A difference, but not the deep difference you claim.

[Spider Jerusalem]

108. And meanwhile public universities in Germany are free.

With an average cost per year of around €300-400 in enrolment and administration fees.

[Blue_true]

133. One of the biggest components to college expenses are living expenses.

Until that is dealt with, students will rack up debt. Tuition in Sweden is low, the debt comes from living expenses while at college.

It is hard for me to pin anything down while you merrily skip from claim to claim.

[OliverQ]

7. Bernie isn't actually proposing Socialism.

And the US has a long history of socialist policies. The entire civilized world relies on them.

[we can do it]

8. Another nope here.

[Tweedy]

10. I do not think that word means what you think it does

Unless you want to toss social security and Medicare (both socialism) in the trash.

Any kind of insurance FYI is a form of socialism (pooling the risk).

Forget about labels. We have other kinds of 😬 socialism, as well-- subsidies for big oil (yup), big agra (even before the unindicted co-conspirator added more), and so many more.

Did you know we still build tanks which are "stored" by rotting in the desert? That is some serious socialism for you.

None of our candidates are to the left of Dwight Eisenhower.

Don't believe me? Just check out his top tax rate.

[Girard442]

20. Very true.

Imagine a healthcare system where, when you need it, the government assigns you healthcare workers. You have no ability to choose them. You can only accept or refuse treatment. They pick the facility where you will be treated and might offer you a different choice, but aren't required to. They even wear government mandated uniforms and are frequently accompanied by law enforcement officers.

Sounds like a nightmare of government-run healthcare? Then don't ever call 911.

[Tweedy]

22. 😁

Absolutely!

[5X]

30. +1

[LiberalArkie]

11. Might I suggest you check out the U.S. Tax rates for when the US (to me) was the greatest

during the 50's 60's and 70's. When we went to the moon, when public health was building hospitals and local clinics, when money was being sent to build water systems and sewer systems etc..

https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/fed_individual_rate_history_nominal.pdf

[ChubbyStar]

25. Now we have Vets living on the streets, crumbling infrastructure, and avarice run amok

How did that ever happen?

[emmaverybo]

35. We must help the vets, disabled, elderly, homeless, needy children, mentally ill, all the

most vulnerable and historically disenfranchised people in society, as well as those with college debt and an inability to pay it off. We must shore up social security, and expand Medicaid, provide
job training, fix crumbling infrastructure.

The last thing we must do is lavish 50,000 per person on those whose college education has afforded them lucrative jobs—not when every social program across the U.S. is at-risk and/or
underfunded or has been cut.

There are far less expensive ways to alleviate student debt than to spend a trillion and a half on those not in need along with those in need. We need to target our allocations and prioritize based on need.

[LiberalArkie]

40. It used to be that people could declare bankruptcy and include student debt. But the banks were

complaining about the loss, that they made the debt follow you to your grave. The only debt like it that I know of.

[emmaverybo]

54. Biden's policy would be to expand forgiveness programs to cover a lot more people and discharge

through bankruptcy as eligible. For young people in lower paying professions or prolonged hardship, bankruptcy can be relief. Seven years later and credit restored. Seniors can have their social security garnisheed. Some of us went back to school later in life but did not always lead to
well paying job.

Do feel we need to relieve this debt for many, but not all, and not 50 thou for all.

[Blue_true]

65. Europe and Asia were rebuilding from war still in the 50s

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2020, 06:27 PM - Edit history (2)

and halfway into the 60s. We supplied them with lots of products. They started building their own stuff in the late 60s. The tax rate in the 70s was not as high as in the 50s, it was cut in the early 60s (Kennedy favored cutting corporate and upper income tax rates).

[radius777]

121. Exactly, the fundamentals of that era are radically different from now.

We now live in a diverse society driven by technology; a connected and globalized economy, where capital/wealth can move easily, thus high taxation won't work, but instead would damage an economy to the benefit of whichever country the capital moves to.

[Blue_true]

132. You brilliantly summarized what I was trying to point out. nt

[TreasonousBastard]

12. Nor am I. But Bernie is NOT a socialist of any kind...

This is all hype and bullshit and goes back to Bernie's dalliance with that silly Socialist (Communist front, actually) party in the 60's.

Advocating for a mixed economy is not socialism, it is simply progressive economics...

Some things private industry does better, some things the government does better. In any case, the government is the referee to make sure things don't get out of balance.

[Progressive2020]

52. Right On

You are exactly right. Sanders IS advocating for a mixed economy, not socialism. Demonizing Sanders, using "socialism" as a smear term, are all Republican strategies that some Democrats seem to be falling into. This is exactly what the Russians are trying to do- to disrupt our democracy and pit Americans against other Americans. As Democrats, we should not fall for it.

[Moderateguy]

73. Sanders himself says he is a Democratic Socialist

Why not a Democratic Progressive or something else besides a word that has such a negative context. He could save himself and the democratic party a lot of grief if he re-branded himself

[proud patriot]

13. what about Nordic Capitalism ?

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0511/Nordic-cuddly-capitalism-Utopia-no.-But-a-global-model-for-equity

[Blue_true]

67. That is a better model than what Bernie is proposing. nt

[proud patriot]

97. it's also a Frame that

republicans aren't prepared to attack .. flip the frame I say

[Blue_true]

100. I agree. Explain it well and let those fools try to attack a successful model. nt

[proud patriot]

115. We need to flip the frame

"Nordic Capitalism"

[booley]

14. We already spend trillions to kill people

IF we can spend trillions to kill people I don't' see why we can't spend money to help people and the country.

Also, I have yet to hear a good explanation for why we can't do what every other industrialized country in the world does. What we used to do ourselves.

The Third way experiment has failed. Now we need to clean up the mess it has left behind.

[Wounded Bear]

23. I just think that some public services should be "socialized"...

including medical care for at least some (most) of the population.

Education, policing, prisons, etc. should all be "socialized" IMHO.

[corbettkroehler]

24. Here's A Bit Of Perspective

In case you were unaware, Ali is a Canadian expatriot.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[thesquanderer]

51. That second graphic isn't Sanders vs. Moderates. it's Socialist vs. Capitalists (n/t)

[ChubbyStar]

26. "The outcome of such makes one a slave to the state to make it work."

That sounds exactly what we have now. Do you like it?

[BigMin28]

27. Just curious...

Are you okay with subsidizing corporations? We already have corporate socialism.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

28. Taxation is slavery? Where have I heard that before?

[Loki Liesmith]

43. Eventually it is

A slave is someone forced to work without remuneration.


If I tax 99% of your wages, just how free are you?

Obviously there is an acceptable level of taxation. So what is it?

[abqtommy]

32. You might want to do a little more thinking about that. Thanks to socialism we have police

departments and fire departments, to name just a few helpful organizations.

[Kurt V.]

33. this is a beautiful rorschach test in real time. the behaviorist in me is super geeked :)

[ChubbyStar]

42. People have no idea how much they reveal

[redqueen]

80. You just said a mouthful!

Anyone wanting to find out how successful the rich wing has been at spreading their propaganda can just take a look in here.

[Cousin Dupree]

41. Socialism and Democratic Socialism are not the same thing

[Loki Liesmith]

44. They are.

Democratic socialism is using democracy to achieve socialism and abolishing markets (and ultimately democracy). Social democracy is incorporating certain elements of socialism into democracy, while maintaining an overall market economy.

[oasis]

45. "Socialism" by itself, not so bad. Couple it with "revolution", that's

going to cause many swing state voters to struggle mightily.

[elleng]

53. I'm not cool without it.

I like roads, schools, and libraries (among other things.)

[LonePirate]

55. So you're going to give up your Social Security, stop driving on roads, never call the PD or FD.

Good luck with that.

[Fresh_Start]

60. not a single one of those things was brought to us by socialist

let us make a deal, you give up all public works brought to you by our non-socialist government...and I'll give up all the public works brought to me by socialism.

Sorry, you can't answer because the internet was not created by socialists.

[LonePirate]

62. All of those things are socialism whether or not you want to believe it.

It is hypocritical of you to bash someone who is a socialist but you freely make use of the multiple things in our lives which are the product of socialism. I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways.

[Fresh_Start]

70. no, they are not.

you and bernie might share a special definition of socialism but there are actual definitions of socialism which existed before Bernie's run for presidency.

[LonePirate]

71. You need to educate yourself on what is and is not socialism. You seem to not know.

It matters not if someone does or does not identify as a socialist.

[redstateblues]

96. Nope. That's not socialism. All capitalist countries have fire fighters, roads etc

Also, when you're explaining you're losing. If Bernie is out on the campaign trail explaining socialism he's losing

[Gothmog]

56. The grandson of GHW Bush is running this ad attacking socialism

TX CD 22 is an open seat with Pete Olson retiring. The DCCC has targeted this seat for flipping. There are 15 candidates in GOP primary including the grandson of GHW Bush. Another candidate, Kathleen Wall, is running in the GOP primary and she spent $6 million in 2018 running in GOP primary for TX CD 2 and did not make GOP primary runoff. I have had Wall block walkers come to my house twice (I live in a very GOP neighborhood) and I have found Wall doorhanger on my door twice now.

Pierce Bush is running against socialism

Link to tweet

Sri Preston Kulkarni is the leading Democrat for this seat (Sri has a GOP type and another person running against him in the Texas Democratic Primary) I texted this ad to Sri and he knew about it already. Sri Preston Kulkarni is a great guy and we need to flip this seat

If sanders is the nominee, we can forget about this seat and we will have Kevin McCarthy as speaker

[CTyankee]

63. Hi, boston bean! Can we talk?

We are two old timers here on DU so I feel comfortable chatting with you...and disagreeing.

I have a question, tho. Have you ever been to Europe?

I have travelled (in recent years) to Great Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium and the Netherlands which are all socialist nations. Altho I was there for nonpolitical reasons, I always asked the people that I met there if they would trade their socialized medicine for our system. Not one single person said yes. They were all pretty knowledgeable about our health care system and they were totally opposed to it. They all seemed to be ordinary citizens, they didn't hate us, and they weren't idealogues. But they were REALLY firm about their health care. They thought ours was a mess and felt kinda sorry for us.

What this told me was that we need to be more informed about socialism before we make disparaging claims about it. I interacted with lots of people on my travels. They were happy with their form of democratic socialism and the fact that they didn't have such scourges of poverty as we do and the lack of basic health care for so many. In fact, many find it scandalous. Why did we put up with such a system and not demand what they have?

I would urge you to travel to those wonderful countries and find out about their citizens' lives before making the kind of judgment you just made. I am particularly shocked that you said that their people were "slaves to the state" when there is no such thing going on there! They live happy, productive lives.

If you have questions, I'd be happy to try to answer them. I'm no expert on their governments but I do know that what you are saying just isn't true.

Let me know if I can help here.

[boston bean]

69. Bernie Sanders plans will cost over 60 trillion.

I am sorry, but if that were to come to pass we would all be paying most of our dollars in taxes.

I do not want the state controlling to that extent my lot in life, thank you very much.

If he is never going to enact these plans why the hell are some people supporting him?

[CTyankee]

78. One of the reasons I am supporting Warren over Bernie is that Warren has told us how she plans

to pay for her programs and Bernie has not. I await his explanation before making comment. I do however believe that Warren answered your question which I am sure she lays out in great detail on her website. I encourage you to read it and get back to me. We pay for our worse outcomes in less longevity and lives plagued with the burdens that poverty imposes. And when one bad illness can result in what is now called "medical bankruptcy" (unheard of in Europe), where is your quality of life? Your idea of "freedom" isn't free, after all.

The idea that democratic socialism controls, hinders, and keeps people from having control of their lives is mistaken. These people enjoy a better life in many ways: their most basic needs are met, freeing them up for more productive activities and longer lives. their health outcomes are much better than ours. These are facts, not propaganda. It is scandalous that our infant mortality and morbidity rates are so high, much higher than our counterparts in Europe. That alone should shock you!

[boston bean]

83. Is everyone missing the 60 Trillion dollar cost?

It’s crazy. We don’t have an economy to support it.

[CTyankee]

87. Elizabeth's plan will clear this up for you, as I have said. Please read it and we can have a

discussion about how our economy can support it.

[boston bean]

89. I am talking about Sanders plans.

[CTyankee]

92. I know but I offered Warren's because I think they will dovetail with his.

However, I haven't seen his plan in the detail we've seen hers. So we really don't know, do we?

[boston bean]

94. This is suppose to make one feel better?

[CTyankee]

116. well, no, my point was in response to your concern about socialism...

and about the cost. The costs to reform our system will be offset by other savings in the plan.
I did want to reassure you that socialism as a form of government need not be as you imagine. Not at all.

[Gore1FL]

104. You assume these are new costs.

We* already pay the bills. Wouldn't it be nice to get something for it than cleaning up after corporations or off-shore accounts for the rich and famous?

I'd rather provide affordable education and affordable healthcare. It was possible before Reaganomics. It'll be possible again. Reaganomics doesn't work. Let's do the things that did.



* This assumes you are not a billionaire

[boston bean]

107. It is a larger number than our economy.

[Gore1FL]

110. I'm going to need a credible link on the 60 trillion. Thanks! nt

[boston bean]

112. You can find a source you feel is reputable by using google.

Search for Bernie Sanders plans 60 trillion.

[Gore1FL]

114. I found one and posted a response already.

(Though you should be able to back your own argument.)

[Gore1FL]

113. I found one.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/14/politics/bernie-sanders-proposals-cost/index.html

It's over 10 years. 6 trillion a year. It's things like rebuilding the infrastructure, improving teacher salaries, affordable housing.

We've neglected these things for 40 years. It's time to pay the piper. Continuing Reaganomics is just going to make it worse.

[MerryBlooms]

128. The folks I know who are anti socialism have in common...

Retired. They are okay with the services and programs they use, like internet, roads, Medicare, etc... the services they use and feel they have paid for and not considered socialism. They are not in favor of poor people getting what they deem non essential 'free stuff' (I've had silly arguments with fellow dems over what foods poor people should be allowed to buy on their EBT cards). Their taxes will go through the roof. They are vehemently against M4A.

We're in Oregon and we'll go blue in the general, so that's a huge relief.

[dgauss]

101. For profit corporate health insurance is controlling people's lives more than single payer would.

That includes where they feel they have to work, how they have to live their lives in order to afford medical care, and the anxiety, especially later in life, about whether or not they lose everything they worked for in order to get medical care.

That's why people in other countries wouldn't trade for our system.

Also it's less expensive overall.

[Martin Eden]

64. It would help if you defined what you mean by "socialism"

Not trying to be snarky, but it means different things to different people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. As a veteran DUER I have some thoughts.

John Lennon said "if socialism means the government should see to it granny gets her teeth fixed I'm a socialist." I like that definition.

That being said nobody should be denied health care for lack of ability to pay and a person should be able to go as far in school as his or her intellect takes them regardless of their ability to pay. That doesn't mean health care or higher education should be free,

[Politicub]

76. I am. So I cancel you out.

[Laelth]

77. Harry Truman was. n/t

THAT is a real Democrat.



-Laelth

[redqueen]

84. I was hoping that had already been posted :)

[Laelth]

124. .

-Laelth

[Gore1FL]

79. Bernie's Socialism looks a lot like the Democratic party looked before we caved to all things Reagan

I really want to undo Reaganomics, and it shouldn't be considered an extreme leftward position to feel that way. It should be mainstream Democratic policy.

[redqueen]

85. Well said! nt

[Laelth]

125. Hear! Hear! n/t

-Laelth

[AlexSFCA]

90. me neither but it's they wont get past congress so it's not even a factor

[Bettie]

102. Interesting thought process

There's a sign at the edge of our town, big ugly wooden sign, spray painted on both sides.

It's kind of embarrassing that it is one of the first things visitors see when they come in from the highway.

One side says "Taxation is Slavery" (Wow, that's what you have stated you believe!)

The other side says "Trump 2020".

[rockfordfile]

119. I will vote for Sanders if he's the Nominee. Vote trump out

Trump is the enemy to be voted out

[EmeraldCoaster]

118. We the People

[pecosbob]

120. Okay...it's cool if you're not down with socialism

To be faithful to your convictions, you must never again use any of these things...schools, roads, hospitals, the fire department, the police department, social security, veterans' benefits, consumer protection groups, the court system, sewers, streetsigns, the internet, your mobile phone...I could go on.

[HelpImSurrounded]

126. You are totally misunderstanding or deliberately mischaracterizing the plan

It's not a free program any more that Social Security or medicare is free. It's a service we pay for.

Right now, we take our hard earned money and turn it over to a criminal cartel of health care interferers who cheat us out of that money and refuse to pay for the care they promised us they would pay for.

They take more than 25% of the money we give them and waste it on overhead.

They force doctors and hospitals to game the system driving up costs.

They do nothing to reign in out-of-control patents and patent litigation.

They pretend to hold the door open for us then slam it in our face to make a buck.

Call it what you will whether it be Universal Single Payer, Medicare for All or whatever it works by taking the money we current spend on premiums, takes a portion of that to pay for our health care and GIVES THE REST BACK TO US.

And for that we get health care that answers to patients not shareholders.

[boston bean]

127. I am not against all people having healthcare.

What I am against is a plan that costs so much and numbers don’t add up. There is not enough money from rich people and savings to cover the cost. So, people who are middle class and poor will see increases. And that is just the healthcare. Does not include all of the other so called free programs.

[Sparkly]

129. There are so many forms of socialism

the word is virtually meaningless unless there's a whole lot of context and explanation around it, which is one reason it would be better not to use it at all.

It can involve features of totalitarianism, nationalism, authoritarianism -- the left can go so far left it meets the far right on the other side.

I have said for a long time that I'm a "socialist at heart," but I don't even want to say that anymore. I am all for the features that give government a role in helping all citizens live to a minimum standard and unite people in camaraderie and mutual respect. I believe in things like mandatory conscription -- not necessarily military -- Flag Day, and the Pledge of Allegiance, which are indeed socialist but not often thought of as such these days.

It's not rooted in "America First" nationalism nor in "Everything's Free for Everybody" economics. To me it's simply a government of/for/by The People, with accurate awareness of history, clear understanding of why we need government, respect for laws and each other. And yes, it recognizes that workers and consumers -- the broad middle class -- is the backbone of the country's economy and too easily exploited.

I do agree that a "get out of college debt free" paid for by people who never got to go to college is not labor-friendly. (Sure, tax "the corporations" -- it will still trickle down.) I also think that the net result of the label "Socialist" is risking losses in Congress thwarting ability to pass ANYthing toward progress while basic rights are still on the chopping block.

(So I truly hope Senator Sanders does not become our Democratic nominee.)

[boston bean]

130. I agree. Thanks so much for the well thought out response.

[MoonlitKnight]

131. So you will be declining Social Security benefits, right?

And keep off those roads and bridges. No airplanes, the socialists built those airports and air traffic control. Definitely forget about using trains.

Don’t call for police or fire. And better get your private militia organized, you know, just like when we were under the Articles of Confederation. Because people didn’t want to pay taxes for a national military.

Get those kids ready to work too. Why should the government decide they can’t work 16 hour days operating a meat slicer. Damned socialism.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

135. The problem is it's a loaded word.

[thesquanderer]

136. A good concise counterpoint I saw to that was...

...the post at https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213010869

but what it really comes down to that virtually nobody is actually arguing for pure capitalism or pure socialism in this country, we'll always be somewhere on the continuum, and there will be those who think that where we are is just about right, and those who think it would be better to skew further in one direction or the other.

As for being a slave to the state, it's not like Sanders argues for government ownership of everything... though he does lobby for some amount of employee ownership. Is that okay or not? How far over on the scale is that? I think "slave to the state" is more communism than socialism. And at the extreme end of capitalism, you can arguably be "slave to the corporation." So it's always a matter of balance.