Sanders could win the votes and lose the nomination. IS THAT DEMOCRACY?

[peoli]

Does my vote or the votes of million n even matter if the ESTABLISHMENT GIVE THE NOMINATION TO SOMEONE ELSE?

[jmg257]

1. It;s possible...ACCORDING TO THE RULES!

[jalan48]

2. If That's the case I don't see how we can win in November.

[dware]

5. With Bernie at as our nominee,

we will definitely lose to the Mango Menace, along with a whole bunch of down ballot Dems.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

35. Yesterday, my doctor told me he would just sit it out if Sanders were nominated.

He's a Democrat and hates Trump as much as I do. Apparently, however, not enough to do whatever it takes to get Fat Donnie out of the WH and Democratic control of both the House and Senate.

[maximusveritas]

50. Not to mention the Supreme Court. Even if you hate our nominee, we can't afford to lose more

seats on the Court. We already see the effect of having a Republican court as they do pretty much whatever the administration asks.

[defacto7]

69. That's the second Dr. sit out story I've heard in a couple days.

What's with these doctors and not voting and telling their patients?

[George II]

87. I think it has something to do with Sanders claiming he'll slash doctors' pay if elected.

[zackymilly]

72. I'd ask him for a second opinion. n/t

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

79. Good one!

Unfortunately, he's a proctologist, and there's something about seeing another one I just can't put my finger on.

[zackymilly]

83. Mine told me he has a bad habit of biting his nails and sometimes forgets his gloves. n/t

[ancianita]

52. Baseless speculation right now. Have more faith in voters to vote Democratic than this.

More rational support and unity will get us to a win. Consider:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287559915

[George II]

3. If one doesn't like the rules, one shouldn't play the game.

[R B Garr]

27. Yeah, especially when you want to change them every

time you run just to give yourself a squeaker.

[ancianita]

49. +1

[Jedi Guy]

85. Bingo. He agreed to the rules just like all the other candidates. N/T

[ripcord]

92. If Bernie loses the nomintion with over 40% going into the convention

Expect a third party run.

[msongs]

4. when and if bernie gets 50% plus one delegate votes he wins.

[still_one]

13. I guess that is a hard concept for some to understand. If a candidate get 30% of the delegates

going into the Convention, and 70% of the delegates are split between the other candidates, 30% is NOT the majority of the delegates

What is ignored by some is that ALL THE CANDIDATES, including Sanders agreed to these rules before the primaries started

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. It's depends on the size of the plurality.

Obviously 30% isn't 40% or 45%. The closer a candidate gets to 50% the harder it will be denying him or her the nomination and conversely the further away the candidate is from 50% the easier it will be to deny him or her the nomination.

[Codeine]

20. And I think the second vote would reflect that reality.

If he comes in with even close to what he needs then he’ll get the nod. If it’s still all split up then the shit hits the fan.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. A 45% plurality is fundamentally different than a 30% plurality,

[still_one]

23. I agree. 40% I suspect that candidate would get the nomination on the second round

but 30% or less, no way would that be accepted by the 70% or more divided between the other candidates

[SharonClark]

67. No it doesn't.

A plurality, whether 2% or 49%, doesn’t equal a majority.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. Do you really think any candidate who arrives with 49% of the delegates can be denied the nomination

There will literally be a riot on live tv with all the concomitant adverse effects in Milwaukee if that happens.

[still_one]

90. Exactly, and if they did get 49%, it is pretty well assured the would win on the second

ballot in that case

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. Here's 1984

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries

BTW Hart would have been a better candidate. He still likely loses. And remember this is pre-Monkey Business.

[George II]

29. And 70% want other candidates.

[still_one]

32. absolutely

[jimfields33]

78. The problem with that is we give it to someone with 28 percecent of the delegates?

That doesn’t make sense either. That means 72 percent wanted someone else instead of 70 percent.

[Midnightwalk]

88. Neither is fair exactly

28 or 30 percent against the rest is not going to be decided in any way that satisfies anyone.

If two candidates came that close I think it depends on more details.

If six friends vote on what to eat and four vote for different pizza places and two want the same mexican restaurant I’m inclined to say pizza should win.

If those four picked different cuisines the two who picked Mexican should win.

If there were 20 friends and 9 agreed on one spot those 9 should prevail.

I don’t see an inherently fair way to decide this kind of thing, but there are rules that were agreed to. I hope we don’t wind up splintered. Best is if it doesn’t come to that.

[jimfields33]

89. That's interesting

Probably the best explanation I’ve ever heard. I think everything will smooth over.

[Fresh_Start]

6. he isn't the winner until he has enough delegates...

and those are the rules Sanders agreed to when he registered to run.

[RockRaven]

7. The Electoral College called. They want your democracy-outrage back.

[aikoaiko]

8. If that happens it will highlight the pros and cons of having superdelegates at all.

Maybe we'll get rid of them permanently or maybe we'll double down.

I'm just glad they aren't involved in the first round and tainting the process at this point.

[still_one]

17. and that was part of the rules agreed to aikoaiko. This will be a non issue if a candidate get 50%

+1 of the total delegates going into the Convention

I believe if a candidate has 40% or more of the delegates going into the Convention, that candidate most likely would be the nominee on the second round.

However, if that candidate had 30% or less, and the rest divided between the other candidates, that isn't even close, and will be determined through the second round

[aikoaiko]

26. I know. It was a compromise. Bernie wanted to get rid of all super delegates.

But the party wanted the super delegates in as a last resort in a brokered convention.

So yes, if someone gets a true majority, the super delegates are irrelevant. If not, they come into play.

If its comes to the later, I think it will be a good experience for us to see how it works and decide if we should keep them for future primaries.

[still_one]

30. and as I said if that candidate has 40% or more I don't think it would be an issue, or it shouldn't

be in that candidate getting the nomination on the second round

[gulliver]

47. The super delegates don't even have to vote.

The so-called center/left delegates can simply meet prior to the convention and agree to pool their delegates behind one of their group. Then that candidate would win on the first ballot on the basis of only pledged delegates.

If the super delegates have to get involved, it will raise a ruckus most likely, but there needs to be something in place to prevent things like deadlocks where we might end up with no candidate at all.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. I think it depends on the size of the plurality.

[HarlanPepper]

10. I'd be elated with that result.

[luxpara4]

11. God I hope so

[Callado119]

12. Last time he lost the votes big and still wanted the super delegates to make him the nominee..

I doubt you were outraged then...btw he isn’t even leading in the delegate count at this point so anointing him the winner already is laughable

[democratisphere]

14. It is about getting rid of drumpf with a full fledged Democrat.

Part timers that can't win need not apply!

[wryter2000]

16. If he doesn't have 50% of the delegates

He doesn’t win. The same is true of all the other candidates.

[Codeine]

18. The nomination is based on a majority

not a plurality. If he wants a straight win he’ll need to put 1990 points on the board. If not then they vote again and the majority rules. Democracy.

[SharonClark]

64. Thank you.

[SidDithers]

19. He needs 1990 delegates before the convention...

Or 2376 on the 2nd ballot at the convention.

Votes don’t matter. Only delegates do.

Those are the rules Sanders agreed to. Those are the rules Sanders pushed to have in place after 2016.

Sid

[Moderateguy]

21. If you can get 3 million more votes and still loose the presidency....

Rules are Rules. 50% plus 1 delegates means that a majority want you, anything less and the majority did not choose you

[rzemanfl]

40. How come you get to say rules are rules and I don't? Scroll down. n/t

[Skidmore]

24. How an election works.

There's no participation medal for showing up.

[AJT]

25. I would trust the winner take all if there were not open primaries,

which Republicans take advantage of (I know firsthand), or caucuses.

[Jersey Devil]

28. Pluralities do not guarantee victory

There are a number of states that require a runoff if no one gets a majority. Why should the nomination to the highest office in the land be any different?

This ain't horseshoes. You don't get the prize for getting close.

[Garrett78]

31. If we're talking a delegate difference of 100, that's one thing. 700 is another.

[rzemanfl]

33. It's delegates, not votes. Rules are rules. n/t

[fallout87]

38. I suppose you also apply the same logic

To the electoral college... "rules are rules" , so Trump won fair and square?

[rzemanfl]

39. Good grief. SMDH. n/t

[Moderateguy]

44. Yes...as far as the rules go

He won the EC. It may have been hacking, rigging etc. but as per the rules he won

[SharonClark]

71. Apples and oranges.

[fallout87]

97. How so?

?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

34. The DNC created the rules after Bernie complained about them.

If you don't like the club's rules don't join the club.

[fallout87]

36. Exactly

The same people here who rightly protest the EC are all too willing to screw over Bernie even if he gets the most votes...

[Codeine]

43. Party politics and an actual election

are not the same thing.

[Moderateguy]

46. Protesting the EC

Is fair game. We have not ignored the results of the EC. That is why the Mano-menace is in the WH

[SharonClark]

70. "Screw over Bernie"?

Really?
Do you want to screw over the majority of delegates? Because any candidate needs a majority to win and Bernie knows it.

[onecaliberal]

37. These are the rules Bernie wanted.

[leftieNanner]

41. If he has less than 50%, but more delegates than other candidates

Then, yes, he could lose the nomination.

And again, yes, that is democracy.

[SharonClark]

68. Than other candidates individually.

[leftieNanner]

93. No. I mean combined.

If Bernie has less than 50%, then the other candidates have more than he does when added together.

[jrthin]

42. Yes.

[we can do it]

45. Hillary won the votes and lost the election.

[Garrett78]

48. And we're rightfully outraged by that system. Why would we want to mirror it?

[maximusveritas]

55. It's not the same. Primaries aren't binary like the general. The majority do not want Sanders

It's just that the anti-Sanders vote is split among too many candidates. This system allows for us to take a look at the big picture in the end and decide on our best nominee.

[Garrett78]

59. I get what you're saying, but the general isn't exactly binary either.

I think there's a world of difference between someone leading by, say, 100 delegates and someone leading by, say, 700 delegates. If the latter happens and that person is denied the nomination, we're completely screwed.

And Sanders is the 2nd choice for way more people than DUers would like to admit. DU is not remotely representative of the population at large.

[SharonClark]

76. The majority don't want any candidate at this point.

There could be a majority for a single candidate before the convention. We’ll see.

[we can do it]

60. Rules are in place already.

[Garrett78]

61. Sure, but that wasn't my point.

Anyway, I think there's a big difference between leading by just 100 delegates and leading by, say, 700 delegates.

[Renew Deal]

66. Twice

2008 and 2016

[SharonClark]

73. That has nothing to do with delegates voting at

the Democratic Convention.

[evertonfc]

51. yes

[The Mouth]

53. Just like the Electoral college

The contest has rules.

Everyone knows the rules before they compete. People who complain about the rules AFTER they have chosen to compete deserve ridicule.

You could checkmate me and win a chess game even if I had twice as many pieces as you. If I complained about it I'd just look like an ignorant fool.

FWIW, I agree that if Bernie goes into the convention with way more votes than anyone else and doesn't get it, we can kiss off not just the election, due to the loss of the energy and enthusiasm of so many of his supporters, but the trust and loyalty of a big chunk of the next generation. Bernie's supporters have more energy than anything I've seen in a long while. It *should* be a plurality, but it isn't, this time.

[Dem2]

54. Has a ring of familiarity eh?

🧐

[apcalc]

57. A Sanders win is a loss in the general.

[TreasonousBastard]

58. Not "democracy"-- we are a republic, and those are the rules...

along with collecting petitions, caucuses, open primaries, and a gazillion other things we do around election time.

Not all of them make sense.

[helpisontheway]

62. Yup..according to the rules! Rules Sanders agreed with last time. Nt

[tandem5]

63. The primary stage has nothing to do with our "democracy."

Yes, state level government can conduct a primary election on a party's behalf (as opposed to a privately operated caucus), but the bottom line is that a party is not required to democratically select its nominee for president. The system in place with the Democratic party is a hybrid system with a mix of multilayered delegate appointments derived from primary and caucus elections that happen over various dates. So whether a candidate is selected via winning a majority of delegates or as a result of a contested convention none of it will be because of a pure democratic process. If the Democratic party were to have such a process then a single primary election would have to be held across the country on the same day and the candidate with the plurality vote would get the nomination.

[aeromanKC]

65. Odd that the one who is complaining about the Democratic "club" rules the loudest

Is the one who is a self-described member of another club and officially registered in yet another club and is only a sponsored visitor in our club.

[dbolski]

75. They won't do it.

It would leave such a bad taste in the mouth of young voters (by young I mean nearly everyone under age 50) the democratic party would have no future.

[totodeinhere]

77. Don't worry. There is a good chance that Bernie will get to 1,991 delegates.

And if he gets close but not quite there then another candidate might release their delegates to vote for Bernie which would put him over the top.

[Julian English]

80. Posts like this show that Sanders supporters have little faith in Sanders's abilities or Democracy.

A skilled politician who wins a plurality should be able to assemble a majority. One who alienates all but his base will have considerable trouble. Assembling a majority is a skill a leader needs. Apparently, Sanders supporters don't think Sanders has the ability to do this.

[OnDoutside]

81. And yet, when Bernie was told Putin is trying to rig the Democratic Primaries in Bernies

Favour, he kept quiet about it until it came out anyway. So spare us the moral indignation.

[Botany]

82. Anything that keeps him from getting the nomination I'm good wirth.

Bernie knew about and still accepted Russian help for over a month.
F him.

[themaguffin]

86. Absofuckinglutely that is democracy. No fucking way should it go against 2/3 of the will of the

party...


fuck that shit.

[Laelth]

94. No. It's not democracy. "It's a Republic, if you can keep it." - Benjamin Franklin

And this republic has rules. The Democratic Party also has rules (rules for which Bernie Sanders negotiated, to which he agreed, and to which he and all our other candidates are now bound). It is entirely possible for Bernie Sanders to go into the convention with a plurality (but not a majority) of delegates, and for him to subsequently not win the nomination. The rules allow for that possibility. On the other hand, Sanders may end up being our nominee, even if he doesn't have a majority of delegates going into the convention. Either scenario is possible. Both are allowed by the rules, and what makes us a civilized society is the fact that we attempt, to the best of our ability, to enforce our stated, published, and agreed-upon rules.

Neither the United States nor the Democratic Party is a democracy, and to that some would say, "Thank goodness!"

-Laelth

[OliverQ]

95. Whether you agree with Bernie or not, I don't think

people here realize if the DNC hands the election to someone who didn't win, it will destroy the entire party and we will lose 2020. You will not be getting a solid half of the Democratic party voting for whoever the DNC chooses.

[karynnj]

96. If he wins 50% of the votes - he will win - even if he does not get the full number of delegates

However, if he gets say - 33% and many others split the remaining 67% - with someone very close to Sanders, then it is really not clear what the opinion of the population was. This might be why a ranked choice voting system would be better.

If the remaining 67% is split mostly between Biden, Bloomberg, Buttigieg, and Klobuchar -- then it is possible that most people wanted a more moderate nominee than Sanders. (I intentionally did not include Warren as many people for her might have Bernie as a second choice.

I suspect that no one will drop out before super Tuesday. If Bernie does as well as many polls show - it might be too late after SuperTuesday for anyone to catch Sanders. I also think many people should note that Sanders - unlike Buttigieg, Warren and Klobuchar , has polled very similarly against Trump to Biden - and often better than Bloomberg.