The utter STUPIDITY of "Always believe the woman"----

[Atticus]

Really? "Always believe" or even "usually believe" the woman?

How is this different from "Always believe the white guy?"

The adult?

The cop?

We should always take anyone's allegation that they were wronged seriously. We should listen with respect, but not with automatic "belief" based solely on the gender, race, age or profession of the parties: the accuser and the accused.

It is absolutely true that, until relatively recently, women who complained that a man had sexually harassed or even assaulted them were quite often not taken seriously. The entire subject of men treating women as sexual toys was treated---by men---as "no big deal" or "just the way things are". THAT WAS WRONG. It is being corrected by women AND men of good conscience.

But, to say that any accusation by any woman against any man of any sexual impropriety is inherently true is just too silly for words. We are surely better than that.

[Kurt V.]

1. Neanderthal. It's not that simple. ugh ugh

[Atticus]

8. My actual reaction to your post was to laugh, but I don't want to fill a page with "Ha-Ha"s, so

I 'll say it this way: name calling is usually so out of place on this board that it actually draws alerts.

But, thanks for the chuckle.

[Kurt V.]

127. i thought it was funny. :) . thnx for the non-alert. i have so much respect for you now.

[Polly Hennessey]

128. Nothing Neanderthal about it.

Women are not always right “no matter what”. This way of thinking will doom the #metwo movement.

[Kurt V.]

130. I'm not saying it should be. but it's been the other way for ever.

[IluvPitties]

132. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[left-of-center2012]

2. The goal us to stop Biden at all costs

True or false

[crazytown]

3. Believe unless there is Good reason not to.

At this stage in the Primary season claims should not be taken purely at face value.

[qazplm135]

13. Take seriously and investigate

Every single claim.

That's all you need to do.

You don't have to believe in either direction, just investigate every claim fully and completely.

[pazzyanne]

24. That is my take on this as well!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

69. That's what "believe" means initially...take seriously enough to investigate & listen to both sides.

Seems like a reasonable approach.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[Atticus]

86. Reread your post. Look up "believe" in any dictionary. Aren't you embarrassed? nt

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

88. Not in the least... fits perfectly! You proved my point... thanks!!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[Atticus]

91. Uh-huh. nt

[qazplm135]

94. wow

just amazing.

[qazplm135]

87. maybe to you

but to a lot of people believe means what the literal definition is...believe.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

89. I don't believe you.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[qazplm135]

93. right

let's look at the definition of the word believe:

to consider to be true or honest
to accept the word or evidence of
to accept something as true, genuine, or real

synonyms:
accept, buy, credit, swallow, take, trust

In none of those definitions is the concept dependent on further investigation or determination...it is not a temporary concept.
Words have meaning, not the ones you want them to have, actual meaning and accepted definition.

[brush]

108. Thank you. It can 't be stated any better.

[Dream Girl]

30. Umm no. Don't automatically believe shit!

[defacto7]

97. That's guilty until proven innocent.

[handmade34]

4. ...

[no_hypocrisy]

5. Similar to:

"Always believe the child/the elderly victim"

I have been accused not once, but three by anonymous children of abusing them while being a substitute teacher. Aside from the shock and humiliation of being part of due diligence, you truly risk losing your ability to work anywhere and the loss of your teaching license. (BTW, the 9 yo girl had enough wherewithal to "tamper with a witness" who eventually confessed to learning his script from her.) While I "survived" each accusation, I know my reputation took a hit.

And as an attorney, I have just finished defending a 60+ yo certified nurses aide who was accused by a 75 yo bedbound woman in a longterm care facility of at least a dozen episodes of abuse within one work day. I proved that each of them NEVER HAPPENED and that this sympathetic "victim" had an eye on suing the facility and was using my client as a patsy. (She had a reverse mortgage paying for her stay at the NH and was over $8000 overdue for more than 14 months of municipal taxes, which would have caused her to lose her house and to be ejected from the NH.)

So, no, children and the elderly don't get a presupposition that they couldn't/wouldn't lie. Sure they do. Not often, but it happens.

[Sherman A1]

9. Been there

Circumstances were different, but going through a rather unpleasant divorce years ago (From MY Charming Ex-Wife, The Dragon Lady) I was accused of and blamed for everything from Spring being late to the Bubonic Plague.

[no_hypocrisy]

11. I'm truly sorry to know you had to go through that.

[Sherman A1]

14. It was ugly but doesn't seem to compare

to your several exciting episodes. Thankfully it's all water under the bridge. Hope that it is the same for you as well.

[no_hypocrisy]

22. Thanks. I believe each time I see false allegations, part of my heart dies.

Why do people do this?

[Sherman A1]

25. I am sure the reasons vary with the individuals and situations

just as you noted in your post. In some cases revenge, some cases money and others power or control. We must take allegations seriously and respect the accusers, but we must remember that the system still is Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

[treestar]

113. Some people just see an advantage

and press it. I have seen divorces (in the courts) and sometimes you just know the friends of people just tell them "all you have to do is say he abused you" and there are those who think it's that simple.

[jberryhill]

56. Ha! No way

You should have subpoenaed my ex to testify that you couldn’t have done the Bubonic plague, because I did.

[Sherman A1]

77. Wish I would have known at the time

It was ugly then, laughable now. The beauty of it all was she came out on the bad end of it all at the end courtesy of her ambulance chaser attorney (who I later found out to have moved from divorces to traffic tickets several states away) and the advice she received.

Got even worse later when she had to reimburse me for a year's worth of child support that she had been collecting inappropriately.

[PatSeg]

62. Unfortunately

there are people who lie for numerous reasons and we've all known them. Though any accusations should be heard and taken seriously, we cannot assume that everyone is always telling the truth. People lie for money, attention, revenge, and of course, political reasons. I've seen lives nearly ruined by very accomplished and prolific liars.

[Trenzalore]

6. From the moment that started being said I knew it would be weaponized

The Cons did it with Franken and our Senators willingly shouted crucify him. Now VP Biden is up on the cross.

In the long term this hurts the movement because there will be a pendulum swing and republicans don't care what you have done if you have money or power.

[localroger]

15. This. The first time I heard it I facepalmed.

It's exactly the kind of bullshit platitude that sounds so good and is so easy to push and is so dangerous because of the edge cases where it really, really doesn't apply. And it's not the first time the enemy has weaponized our own genuine moral concern for others against us. We should know better by now that as pleasing as it might be to wield them pitchforks and torches are never the answer. Our Founders were quite certain of that.

[Squinch]

43. Which is worrisome because millennia of NOT believing

women worked out so well for everyone.

[Trenzalore]

44. The two allegations

Are a kiss on the head and rubbing noses.

This lessens things for women who were assaulted.

[Squinch]

54. But neither ever said that their experiences amounted to assault. In fact, Flores has said

she would certainly vote for him if he won the primary.

And no, a kiss on the head and rubbing noses was not the extent of either of those reports.

So no. It doesn't lessen anything. It is two women who experienced creepiness at the hands of Joe Biden, hands that are and always have been famously busy around women. And it is those women discussing how that creepiness made them uncomfortable.

They aren't the ones exaggerating. You are.

Don't let that make you get up from your fainting couch, though.

[luvtheGWN]

100. So they question is: Why did she all of a sudden make a big deal of it?

Was she just hungry for attention? Was it suggested to her as a means of knocking Biden off the top of the polls?

[louis c]

101. Flores is no shrinking violet...

...she doesn't work in the back office in some cubicle. She was a state Senator and candidate for Lt. Gov in a fairly large and important state. If what Biden did made her feel uncomfortable, why didn't she speak up 5 years ago? Oh, I know, he wasn't running against her preferred candidate. She just happened to weaponize her allegation to be coincidentally aligned with Biden's anticipated announcement.

I was born at night, but not last night.

[treestar]

114. The solution is not automatically believing.

that' s not just either.

[Sherman A1]

7. I always believe the accusations should be taken seriously

they should not automatically be considered fact and should be proven to be so.

We still operate under the concept of Innocent until Proven Guilty except it seems in these cases.

[fountainofyouth]

19. The court of public opinion is not a criminal court

The standard of proof should not be "beyond a reasonable doubt." Even in civil trials, the burden of proof is not at that level.

What if the standard of proof was "preponderance of the evidence"? How many photos or videos of Biden taking liberties with physical contact, along with personal testimonies, would constitute a "preponderance of the evidence"?

[bitterross]

21. Sure hope you feel the same if you're ever charged or accused.

I only hear the sort of post you wrote from people who have yet to be charged or accused of misbehavior that would ruin their lives and yet were still innocent.

If you are, one day, accused of some heinous act and are innocent of said act then I hope you still feel the same way as you lose your friends, job, etc. due to the preponderance of the evidence.

[Sherman A1]

31. Precisely

Well Said!

[fountainofyouth]

33. If anyone photographed me doing this

And the woman said later she felt uncomfortable, I don't think I'd dare to mount a defense.

[bitterross]

38. The woman in that pic has not said she felt uncomfortable.

Catch up on the issue. The Carters have said that she didn't feel uncomfortable and this whole thing was a non-event.

Nice attempt at distraction from the real point I made. You tell me how you feel when it really happens to you. Don't give me speculation from the comfort of your keyboard.

[Squinch]

39. Also everyone is saying its the woman's responsibility to

let him know she is uncomfortable. There is no possible way she could do that in that time and in that place.

[smirkymonkey]

45. She didn't feel uncomfortable. I know her and so does my family and she told us that she

was not offended and that he was only encouraging her and comforting her. She and Ash Carter are good friends with the Bidens. This is bullshit. See the Politico article:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/31/joe-biden-stephanie-carter-1246007

Ex-Defense secretary’s wife says photo of her with Biden misleading

Stephanie Carter, the wife of former Defense Secretary Ash Carter, sought Sunday to “reclaim” a “misleadingly extracted” yet oft-mocked picture of her and Joe Biden that has resurfaced amid accusations that the former vice president acted inappropriately toward a female Nevada state assemblywoman in 2014. But in a blog post published Sunday on Medium, Carter wrote that Biden’s display of affection toward her in 2015 was appreciated, as she was “uncharacteristically nervous” after slipping on some ice upon her arrival at the Pentagon earlier in the day.

“After the swearing-in, as Ash was giving remarks, he leaned in to tell me ‘thank you for letting him do this’ and kept his hands on my shoulders as a means of offering his support,” Carter wrote. “But a still shot taken from a video — misleadingly extracted from what was a longer moment between close friends — sent out in a snarky tweet — came to be the lasting image of that day.”

Carter wrote that she and her husband had previously known Biden and his wife, Jill, “for many years, long before he had become vice president,” and revealed that she expressed her condolences to the couple about the media’s coverage of the incident.

“I told them I felt awful that after he had generously taken time out of his day to swear in an old friend, his attempt to support me had become a joke and even more — supposed proof positive that he didn’t understand how to respect women,” Carter wrote. “I thought it would all blow over if I didn’t dignify it with a response. But clearly that was wishful thinking.”

[snip]

“But her story is not mine. The Joe Biden in my picture is a close friend helping someone get through a big day, for which I will always be grateful,” Carter wrote. “So, as the sole owner of my story, it is high time that I reclaim it — from strangers, Twitter, the pundits and the late-night hosts.”

[fountainofyouth]

48. I won't question you in that particular case

Just used that as one example. Are you really going to make me Google the other photos? You know that's not the only one.

[smirkymonkey]

59. And I don't think his motives were any more improper in the other

situations either. So he is a little overly affectionate. He is hardly in the league of Donald Trump and the rest of the republican rapists and misogynists.

[Atticus]

65. THIS is the problem with many of these "if" posts. The woman in that photo DID NOT say

that she felt uncomfortable. In fact, she said just the opposite as she and her husband, Ash Carter, are old friends of the Bidens. So, why accompany the photo with the factually incorrect IF nonsense?

"If the OP pushes right-wing propaganda, the author could be a RWNJ". You are not, but see how that works?

[GemDigger]

70. That woman clearly expxlained that she was NOT threatened.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/wife-of-obama-defense-secretary-blasts-misleadingly-extracted-image-of-joe-biden-embracing-her

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"Upon our arrival at the Pentagon, I had slipped and fell on some ice — which a few journalists were nice enough to tweet about. Later, we went to the White House for the swearing in and I was feeling self-conscious and tentative (not a normal state for those who know me) about the fall — and perhaps about how much our life might change," she wrote. "As we walked in the room, reporters were staged and a young woman from Huffington Post shouted to me to ask if I was doing all right — I was somewhat thrown (did I not look all right?) but quickly remembered news of my fall on the ice had traveled."
"By the time then-Vice President Biden had arrived, he could sense I was uncharacteristi

I was uncharacteristically nervous- and quickly gave me a hug," she added. "After the swearing in, as Ash was giving remarks, he leaned in to tell me thank you for letting him do this' and kept his hands on my shoulders as a means of offering his support. But a still shot taken from a video — misleadingly extracted from what was a longer moment between close friends — sent out in a snarky tweet — came to be the lasting image of that day."

More in the article.

[treestar]

116. That is specifically a woman who said she didn't?

He is just telling her something.

[LanternWaste]

82. You move the goalposts

You move the goalposts. The court of public opinion is merely speculation and discussion-- the very thing you yourself are engaging in now. Anecdotal experiences are as varied in number as there are people. Your experiences neither validate nor minimize the experiences of those whose outcomes were different than yours.

You can argue the law. Or you can argue your "feelings." The one is not relevant to the other.

[Sherman A1]

34. The Court of Public Opinion is certainly not a criminal court

However, the Court of Public Opinion is just that, Opinion and does not always mesh with those pesky little things called Facts.

[treestar]

115. Photos alone don't prove anything.

There is context.

And it is to be noted that all of his actions take place in public! Real predators don't do that.

[dlk]

10. Instead of "Always Believe the Woman," We Should, Instead, "Always Take Women Seriously"

Investigate before making a decision. I think this approach makes more sense.

[Bradshaw3]

32. Exactly n/t

[smirkymonkey]

46. Yes, the Joe Biden article w/ Ash Carter's wife was a pure smear job and completely

false, as she said so herself. We need to stop letting them taking the optics and run with them. Always investigate before making a conclusion.

[SFnomad]

12. When the next Republican is the accused, all here will revert back to "Always believe the woman"

You can bet on it.

[Squinch]

36. The hypocrisy is heartbreaking.

Somehow we all knew Bush massaging Merkel's shoulders was creepy. Somehow we all knew trump talking about how he grabbed women without their permission was horrifying.

But god forbid we suggest one of our own refrain from the same kind of behavior.

[Atticus]

72. "Somehow we all knew Trump talking about how he grabbed women without their permission

was horrifying."

So, there it is: the equating of what Biden did to what Trump bragged about doing.


Stone and Bannon et al have to be giddy.

[Squinch]

79. Did he grab a woman without her permission?

Why yes. Yes he did. And how about our horror when Bush did the same thing to Merkel? How is this different?

And I don't know about stone and bannon but this feminist is heartbroken at the hypocrisy coming out of people I respected.

[Atticus]

90. As the saying goes: "I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you." We differ on

this issue. I will still read your posts and consider your opinion as we do agree on much.

[Squinch]

92. Nope. You won't be reading any more posts from me. I'm out.

[Atticus]

96. Okay. nt

[yardwork]

122. I disagree with this characterization. I really do.

Trump bragging about grabbing women by the pussy is quite different from what Joe Biden is accused of doing. I thought that it was creepy of Bush to grab Merkel's shoulders from behind, without warning, but I don't see that Biden is accused of having done that.

For years, it's been known that Biden is physically affectionate with people. Personally, I don't think that is appropriate and I think that he should dial it back. As a professional woman I've been on the receiving side of unwanted physical contact from men in the workplace, including unwanted hugs, inappropriate comments, and even a really creepy guy who tried to hold my hand while we were driving. However, none of those things rises to the level of sexual assault, which is what Trump bragged of doing.

[Sherman A1]

37. Perhaps that will be the case for many

but I will not be included in your ALL.

[SFnomad]

40. If you say so n/t

[Sherman A1]

41. I do

as I have never done so in the past.

[Trenzalore]

49. The Republicans will circle the wagons

Attack the accuser and the accused republican will remain in office.

We shouldn't engage in the same behavior but we cannot be dumb enough to think crucifying every democratic man or woman accused of something will change their behavior.

Right now they are literally laughing their asses off at us.

[treestar]

117. False, stop accusing us of that

There is no comparable case. Republicans usually have real predatory behavior to discuss. That does not take place in public (where they are smart enough not to get photographed).

[yardwork]

118. I've never seen "all" state anything like "always believe the woman."

I don't believe that I am any more likely to believe an accuser if the accused is Republican, or less likely to believe them if the accused is a Democrat.

As evidence builds against an accused person, opinions are likely to move toward believing their accusers. For instance, a preponderance of evidence against Harvey Weinstein, including multiple accounts by many different women, many of them with contemporaneous corroboration, convinced a whole lot of people that Weinstein was probably guilty of assaulting women. The same process happened with Bill Cosby. I found at least one of Brett Kavanaugh's accusers to be credible, but I wasn't sure about another of them. I did not find any of Al Franken's accusers to be credible, mostly because most of them were anonymous and the few who were not had credibility issues, and I was very disappointed that he was forced to resign before any investigation was done. I find Michael Jackson's accusers to be highly credible, which is heartbreaking. I was a fan. Likewise, I can't watch any film by Roman Polanski, because I believe his accuser. I don't know what to think about Woody Allen. If you look over these folks, you'll see that their political points of view haven't played a role in my personal opinion about whether or not their accusers are credible.

[reACTIONary]

16. K&R

[Tarc]

17. "Believe women...until they accuse someone I like!" is the takeaway here

The same blind, 'bro defense of Franken, repeating yet again...

[Atticus]

20. As the OP does not reference ANY person or candidate, please explain where you

get your "takeaway".

[Tarc]

81. Who the OP, i.e. you, was referring to, was quite obvious

Leave the games on the playground, kiddo.

[Atticus]

83. Ah, yes, the Limbaugh method : "Never mind what you actually SAID. I'll tell you

what you really MEANT!"

He who unnecessarily excuses his candidate accuses his candidate.

[Trenzalore]

28. What was down to Franken was a shame

And bullshit.

[Tarc]

80. What was done to Franken was of his own doing

He also owned up to it and resigned, honorably.

[Trenzalore]

98. Bullshit

[Tarc]

125. Spent a lot of time on that riposte?

[Trenzalore]

131. I think I would violate terms of service if I responded more.

[Tarc]

135. I accept your concession

[fountainofyouth]

18. Nice straw man (or straw woman) argument

Nobody is saying we should believe every accuser even when common sense would tell you otherwise. There's a reason the Washington Post did not run with the fake accusations against Roy Moore.

Biden's had a problem with boundaries for a long time. Why shouldn't we cast these women's assertions as reasonable?

[Trenzalore]

26. The nightly news led tonight with this

As opposed to the story that Trump personally overrode security clearances for members of his family.

The V former Vice President is being accused of smelling someone's hair and the President is being accused of nepotism and putting national security at risk so I will outright question whether any of this is useful to removing the guy who bought a teenage beauty pageant so he could look at underage girls getting dressed from office in the 2020 election.

[fountainofyouth]

35. Well, I'm not the news director at NBC

If it were up to me, Trump would be the first story.

That doesn't mean Biden gets a pass. Whether a story is "useful" or not is kinda missing the point. Maybe it would be "useful" to nominate a candidate who understands appropriate boundaries with women, regardless of which party they're in.

[Trenzalore]

42. Here is my problem

A simple you are making me a little uncomfortable and a quick apology from Biden would have cleared this up 5 years ago.

If you are running for LT governor and cannot deliver that you probably aren't assertive enough for the job to begin with. I cannot imagine Madeline Albright or Hillary Clinton waiting 5 years to tell a man they made them uncomfortable.

[fountainofyouth]

47. Would this happen in an ideal world? Maybe

Even better would be that Biden would know ahead of time not to do that. It's not a problem Obama ever had.

Maybe it's a product of the time period Biden grew up in. I think, for some people, that's exactly the problem. They want a nominee who can appreciate the standards we expect men to live by today. Is that the main thing I'm evaluating in a nominee? No. But I can understand why someone would do that.

[Trenzalore]

50. I am not voting for him unless he is the nominee

He is past his mid 70s and frankly that generation had their opportunity to lead.

I don't appreciate him being crucified in the media by an allegations from someone with a blatant and well timed political reason for doing so.

[fountainofyouth]

51. Not following

Why would Lucy Flores have a "blatant and well-timed political agenda" in dragging Biden down? She's a Democrat and said she'd still vote for Biden over Trump.

[Trenzalore]

52. Her preference for candidate is not Joe Biden

[Squinch]

27. DU has sunk very, very low over this.

[whopis01]

120. Yes it has. n/t

[Cha]

29. I'm sorry.. but it Is Stupid.

my god.. anybody can lie. Even Women! Shocking I know.

[peggysue2]

55. Yes, it is profoundly stupid

The MeToo Movement has a very important message about hearing women's voices, listening to their stories. But once you use that very messaging tool as a political cudgel, you're basically reducing the movement's effect for the women with genuine complaints of sexual harassment and assault. Sorry but invading my personal space is not and never will be equal to a man grabbing at my breasts, my genitals, treating me like a piece of meat for his own personal gratification.

IS. NOT. THE. SAME.

Not all things are equal and to pretend they are is flat-out ludicrous.

Just as ludicrous as saying women can never lie.

Because we do. Because we're human.

[Cha]

61. And, here she is trying to smear Hillary in 2017.. After the GE.

With a LIE..

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[peggysue2]

66. How nice!

(sigh).

Thanks for the twitter link, Cha.

[Cha]

67. Welcome..

[Little Star]

109. +1

[onit2day]

58. Her experience of it doesn't need to be factual, merely her impressions

Biden is a very likable man but has years of baggage that will be exploited. Much of it on video. He is not a progressive, and we neede bold action and he's a status quo kind of guy. We need bold action not talk.

[LongtimeAZDem]

63. "Her experience of it doesn't need to be factual, merely her impressions"

Good.

Fucking.

God.

[Atticus]

71. Amazing, isn't it? nt

[Cha]

78. Exactly. This is what we

have to deal with.

[IronLionZion]

53. If she claims she felt uncomfortable, then it's not a lie

if she claimed some things happened when they didn't, then it's a lie.

So far, most of the accusations against our favorite Dems are that the women felt uncomfortable with what happened, not that completely false things happened.

[frazzled]

73. But if she felt uncomfortable, it doesn't necessarily mean it was wrong

There are actions that are universally accepted to be dead wrong under any circumstances. Say, locking your office door and sexually assaulting a subordinate (Matt Lauer); inviting an employee or potential job seeker to your home to discuss business and then coming out in an open robe with your junk exposed (Charlie Rose, Harvey Weinstein); jerking off in front of your employees (Louis CK).

No questions here, and this is what #MeToo is, or at least should be about. About power, aggression, assault.

Now, actions like putting your arm around someone during a photo op or touching their shoulder and giving the top of their head a kiss before going on stage (go for it!) are much more debatable actions. Some women would be absolutely fine with either of these things, while some others might feel “uncomfortable.” But I, personally, would not consider either of those actions wrong in themselves. There are huggy people (they may hug men as well as women) and people who are touchy about having their space invaded. In such cases, I would simply say that there is a clash of sensibilities. But objectively speaking, in these public actions of hugging or touching where there is no power imbalance or threat of job security, or attempt at physical assault, or gross indecency, your discomfort is just that: yours.

I believe Flores felt uncomfortable and at the same time that it doesn’t mean Biden did anything wrong.

Look, when people feed me a dish reeking with cilantro (which I cannot stand), I feel uncomfortable, but I don’t think they did anything intentionally to offend me. Frankly, it’s my problem, and I can’t expect others to know it grosses me out.

I’m also used to being kissed on the cheek(s) or hugged when introduced to people (it’s common in our circles), while other people might get freaked. But it’s not criminal ... it’s a social custom quite normal to some but totally creepy to others.

We have to use discrimination in these various cases. If we don’t, we risk real cases of sexual aggression being normalized or ignored.

[UniteFightBack]

74. Good Post, Recommend. nt

[Stonepounder]

99. Thanks for this, frazzled.

There is an entire spectrum of behaviors from 'touchy-feely' to 'leave me alone'. I'm a guy who is pretty much touch adverse. With the exception of those with whom I am in a close relationship, or a handshake I am uncomfortable with hugs, arms around my shoulders, and so on.

So, do I freak out and talk to the news about how 'someone did that to me'? Of course not. I can pretty well read intentions and even though I get uncomfortable at times I can tell that the other person is offering something with the best of intentions.

This is called being human. We aren't all alike. We don't all share the same emotional reaction to things. If you are really uncomfortable with something you need to speak out about it to the other person ASAP. Not wait years and then accuse them of something 'inappropriate'. I would suspect that if you do speak to the other person, about 99.9% of the time you will get an immediate apology.

Done and done.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

134. Well said

[treestar]

119. It is possible that it could be

That would have to be looked into.

[Demsrule86]

121. I think she didn't feel uncomfortable and she is lying and she hurts me too and

Is not a good person.

[bitterross]

57. I applaud your bravery in posting this.

It seemed to me a while ago the pendulum might be swinging too far in one direction. That a perfectly valid and worthwhile movement had been co-opted for less than worthwhile purposes by too many. I have run into some misandrists who are certain ALL men are guilty of some sort of original sin by virtue of the fact they are male. They are more than happy to find every woman to be above reproach and every man to be guilty.

The GOP has, of course, co-opted it and used it as they did with Al Franken. All indications are Roger Stone put Leann Tweeden up to casting the first stone in that case. I feel certain the other women were being honest but were mistaken about intent. The GOP's success in eliminating a thorn in their paw like Franken only emboldened them.

I wonder, I just wonder if it's possible that people like Biden and Franken are simply a bit overly-affectionate. People from a different generation when affection was more effusive. I'm not saying that makes it better or that negates how women feel just because it was more common. I'm just saying that's how it was.

From all the "everyone knows Biden is like this and has done this forever" comments I have to wonder why Biden wasn't opposed as Obama's running mate. Sexual assault was certainly not more acceptable in 2008 than it is today.

[Texin]

64. I totally agree with you. I'm a woman who can discern between predation and affection.

It's not that hard. But parents need to instruct their children accordingly.

[bitterross]

68. Yes, good parenting does seem to be the solution to a lot of things.

My parents and the parents of every male I know and hung out with managed to teach us the difference how to be respectful. I've never really found it hard to see how a person of any gender feels if you are paying attention.

[highplainsdem]

60. I agree completely. K&R

[MadDAsHell]

75. Believe women. PERIOD. nt

[Atticus]

85. . nt

[Sugarcoated]

110. Take women seriously

but innocent until proven guilty. PERIOD

[Demsrule86]

123. No not a politically motivated liar who uses me to against a candidate she does not support.

It hurts victims of sexual assault like me.

[JCannon]

129. Including the SRA claimants?

I tried to write a book about that Satanic Ritual Abuse controversy in the 1990s, and in the course of my research, I met women who made all sorts of unlikely claims.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that the SRA allegations were pushed heavily by the feminists of that period. I don't know why that fact has been allowed to go down the memory hole, and I don't know why this history should not color our current assessment of feminism. What happened at that time goes some ways toward explaining why, according to all polls, feminism is unpopular (even among women!), in a country where most people believe in equal rights. (Example. Another example.)

The axiom "Believe women PERIOD" is incredibly dangerous. Do you include Lauren Stratford? "Toby Cole" (a.k.a. Margaret Louise Herget)? Ruth Finley? Cindy James? Eunice Pringle? Betty Hill? Michelle Smith? Cathy O'Brien? You probably won't recognize most of those names, but if you fire up Google, I promise that you'll spend some fascinating hours. Give me a full five minutes and I can come up with another list of women who have made similar claims.

We all recall (or should recall) that a woman was offered $20,000 to "Me Too" Mueller. If she had taken the money, would she have been worthy of belief? Add a couple of zeroes to that figure, and you'll have an idea of what we're in for in 2020.

There is no data to support the claim that women are uniquely holy. There is no evidence that women cannot be bribed or corrupted. According to the National Alliance on Mental Illness, some 18.5% of the population suffers from mental illness in a given year, and I've seen no evidence to suggest that the 18.5% includes only males.

[IluvPitties]

133. Women never lie? What about take every accusation seriously?

[fleabiscuit]

76. Non sequitur. nt

[Atticus]

84. Once more, with clarity. nt

[Autumn]

95. I'm going to believe the woman until I start smelling bullshit.

After that I will call her what she is but till them I'm not going to trash her. It was dumb that they did this now, it should have been brought out when it happened. Joe is Joe, he's a handsy guy. Always has been that's a fact. Another fact is the those women felt uncomfortable and found what he did to be unwanted contact that crossed the line. Stuff like this has always gone on and sexual harassment laws were put in place for things like this and worse and that was a big fucking deal. In this age women are more likely to speak out and kudos to them for doing so. This doesn't disqualify him at all, he will speak out about it and the voters will decide.

[Harker]

102. I never thought I'd quote Reagan

but maybe "trust, but verify" approaches a reasonable course.

[Perrenial Voter]

103. I am at a point with regard to sexual assault that I am prepared to accept some draconian measures t

curtail it, especially in businesses and colleges, where employment or acceptance as a student could be conditioned on giving up some privacy in the event of a sexual assault allegation: for example, examination of smart phone data, social media accounts and the use of lie-detectors. That and the strategic placement of security cameras and microphones (some hidden) could do a lot to reduce sexual assault. I came to this conclusion after my daughter was raped at college and I looked into what the college was doing to stop rape (virtually nothing, even though they knew they had a very high rate of sexual assault). It occurred to me that if they were serious about stopping it, there were things they could have done.

I am only too aware of the problem of false allegations, as I have on two occasions had to be a witness for men who were falsely accused of rape (in both cases, they were with me, in one case 200 miles away, at the time they were supposed to have done it). But I think there are far more cases that go unreported and unpunished, because of the nature of the crime and the difficulty of gathering evidence. I'm thinking we need to change that imbalance somehow, perhaps by altering the standards of evidence for rape and allowing lie-detectors to be used in court.

[cannabis_flower]

104. I have just 2 words..

for people who say always believe the woman : Tawana Brawley!

[yardwork]

124. And "backwards B girl."

[murielm99]

105. This won't only discredit Biden, or Franken

or other men. It will discredit women lie Christine Blasey Ford, who deserve to be taken seriously.

[marble falls]

106. I so agree. I think Franken wasn't given a fair hearing, that said I don't think most women ...

who've been sexually assaulted get a fair hearing either. We can afford to take the time to listen to all woman, a fair hearing hurts no-one: not the accuser nor the accused.

[moonseller66]

107. Publish the Republican Offenders, too

As soon as anyone from the right or even those here who revel in "being the first" to publish any kind of derogatory or questionable action on the part of any Democrat, we need to have and publish a list of ALL right wing politicians etc. who have actually done and/or been accused of similar instances.

Then make sure a copy, or 100,000, are emailed, texted, facebooked or phoned to the press reminding them of their job to report facts before unsubstantiated innuendo or whatever. I'm tired of partisan, media fomented, electronic yellow tabloidism.

Someone here has to have a list of the Republicans from Vitter to Trump who fit into the same categories.
At least bring up Stormy's name as a rebuttal and ask immediately why Trump is still in office and why "you" are NOT making a big deal of that!

Just plain pissed off.

I might just think about voting for John Kerry as President with Al Franken as VP!

[treestar]

111. I agree: it is just not justice

It is merely reversing things; and no improvement on anything and merely hands right wingers, on a silver platter, proof we are unreasonable.

[yardwork]

112. Well said.

There is a big difference between treating accusers with respect and investigating their claims, and simply believing any accuser without investigation. As you say, for too many years women who complained of sexual assault or harassment were not treated with respect. They were dismissed and belittled. It's good that that is changing. However, it is, as you say, simply absurd to suggest that any accuser should be believed without any investigation at all.

[underpants]

126. Marking to read up on this.

Interesting discussion