Violation of Personal Space - Here's my Story

[MineralMan]

Thinking about the Flores Biden thing:

Like most people, including those who encounter public figures like Joe Biden, there have been many times when I've felt like someone has "violated my personal space." It has happened in business meetings, at trade shows, and multiple times in crowds. Here's what happened to me one time at the airport in Las Vegas:

I was on my way to the gate to catch my flight back from a trade show in Las Vegas. I was wheeling my carry-on along behind me, and was tired and ready to get on the plane for home. A woman suddenly stepped in front of me. She was maybe 10 years older than me, based on appearance.

"Excuse me. May I touch your beard?" She said, standing about 6" from me. Too close.

"Uh, why would you want to do that?" I responded.

"I just love beards. Can I touch it?"

I thought about that strange request for a few seconds, and decided that the fastest way to get past this was to let her. So, I said, "Well, OK, I suppose." I was not enthusiastic about this, but...

So, she did touch my beard. I have a rather long full beard, and she ran her fingers through it. Uncomfortable? Very. Her eyes glazed over a little as she did, which added to my discomfort. A beard fetish? Not my kink.

Anyhow, she did that for about 10 seconds and then removed her hand. She smiled at me and walked away.

I went to my gate, and in due time got on the plane and flew home. I thought about that incident for a little while, and told my wife about it when I got home. She said, "Well, that was weird."

And then I stopped thinking about it. I had been briefly made to feel uncomfortable by someone who got her jollies from stroking a man's beard. I remember it, but don't consider it to be a major event in my life. It was just another odd thing that happened, and is a story I can tell. I was definitely uncomfortable when it happened, but the entire thing happened in less than a minute. It just wasn't that big a deal, really.

Stuff happens. You consider stuff like that briefly and then move on.

Everyone has had their personal space violated at one time or another. It's not a big deal. Just some minor discomfort, and then you move on.

[Shell_Seas]

1. Yes, it's awful for me in lines...

When people stand too close, I often get anxiety. I know that they don't realize how incredibly intrusive they are being by standing mere inches behind me, in my bubble, and I think they typically don't mean any harm, but I still hate it every time regardless.

[MineralMan]

5. I'm not fond of lines and crowds, either.

Such encroachment on a person's personal space, though, is almost impossible to avoid in such situations. I try to adjust my sensitivity level when there's no alternative. I can usually manage to do that, but I understand how some people simply cannot tolerate crowded conditions.

[hlthe2b]

2. Do you for one moment realize that this is standard behavior for all kinds of people--

Both men and women—with the bellies of pregnant women? Having your beard or hair touched is intrusive, but somehow REALLY pales in comparison to how pregnant women are objectified. Yet I see it happening all the time, from young and old, men and women.

[MineralMan]

3. Are any of our candidates accused of touching a pregnant woman's

belly? I hadn't heard of that. I certainly would never do that. Actually, I try very hard not to encroach on anyone's space at any time. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, really.

[hlthe2b]

4. Are any of our candidates accused of touching YOUR beard?

[MineralMan]

8. Uh, no, but head hair yes.

I related my story because it's related to the Biden story, since hair on the head or face are involved. A pregnant woman's belly is a much more sensitive issue, I think. I've never been pregnant, of course, so I can't experience what such an encroachment would be like.

Again, I'm not sure what your point is, exactly. People are naturally offended when their personal space is violated. However, most people do not dwell on such things over a long period of time, nor do they make them an issue as a public matter. TV coverage is not given for such personal space violations very often.

My point was that we have all experienced violations of our personal space, and we get past it without lasting trauma in most cases. We don't make it a years-long issue.

In my case, I was made briefly uncomfortable by that woman in the airport.

[hlthe2b]

9. WHICH candidate touched YOUR hair as you stated in the previous post? WHICH one?

Then you can tell us ALL how that is somehow so devastatingly similar and traumatic to strangers coming up to touch women's pregnant bellies. Please DO tell. Also, how did you EVER get over some emotional trauma?

[MineralMan]

12. Nobody is talking about touching pregnant bellies but you.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to continue this line of argument.

[hlthe2b]

13. You want to make this all about you, please do tell us how touching your hair is at all comparable

Given it is your personal experience--that has nothing to do with one of our candidates but is more general, then someone asking you how it is comparable to what happens generally to women all the time DOES seem relevant. I'm waiting to hear you tell us how we are wrong, as I'm sure are all the women on this board.

[mahina]

34. You are sure all the women on this board agree with you?

[hlthe2b]

36. NO more thant the OP speaks for all men. But he surely doesn't speak for women.

when he equates someone "ASKING" to touch his hair with the "me too" movement and intrusion on boundaries in general.

[mahina]

27. Oh brother.

Take a breath.

[hlthe2b]

29. ..

I will not bend to your or anyone else's rudeness nor DU "mansplaining" to us all.

[mahina]

32. Be you, baby.

[Ohiogal]

31. I was pregnant 3 times.

Believe me, it’s commonplace. And complete strangers felt as though they were entitled to touch my pregnant belly. You guys have no idea! Both men and women would do it.

[hlthe2b]

35. I see it all the time-complete with "mansplaining" why it should not be offensive when women flinch

[MineralMan]

37. Oh, I know it happens. I just can't imagine doing something like that.

The idea would never cross my mind. I've known many women who were pregnant. Some were close friends. But none of them ever suggested that I do that, nor did I ever have the urge to do that. Weird. Weird. Weird. Not even with close family members. Ick!

[Trenzalore]

6. "You are making me uncomfortable"

All that needs to be said. Based on what I have observed of Vice President Biden's character he would apologize and not do it again. You are running for the 2nd highest elected official of a state. If you cannot tell someone who is non-sexually touching you that it is uncomfortable for you it probably an office you may not be suited for.

[MineralMan]

10. Yes, absolutely. Telling someone you are uncomfortable is

always a good idea, and I'm sure you're right that Joe Biden would immediately apologize and behave differently with you if you did. There are a number of photos showing her and Biden together in that circumstance in very close proximity and smiling broadly. Politicians, like many others who deal with people in a variety of situations, often have to overcome their personal space boundaries, frankly. There's an awful lot of personal contact involved with campaigning, and I assume it's often uncomfortable for the person who is campaigning.

[WeekiWater]

7. Unrec. NT

[MineralMan]

11. OK.

Thanks for the unrec, I suppose.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

38. DU doesn't have an "unrec" function.

You could explain why you have a problem with the OP, though.

[Bayard]

14. Well, that's bizarro

Plenty of men like stroking and playing with women's long hair. How does a woman feel if a man walks up and asks her if he can do so?

[MineralMan]

17. I have no answer for that. I've never asked to play with a stranger's hair.

It would never occur to me to do so. I have, of course, played with women's hair from time to time, but they were women with whom I had that sort of relationship. I don't touch strangers' hair.

In the airport, I was asked and I allowed the contact. It was still a little weird, which I soon realized.

[MaryMagdaline]

15. If that woman were running for office who you consider sharing your story?

I think it would be relevant. Even though people violate our space from time to time, and it’s to be expected, social transgressions have some relevance in deciding whom to vote for.

[MineralMan]

16. No. I wouldn't. I wouldn't see her particular fetish

to be relevant to an election campaign. I doubt I would recognize her anyhow, if she ran. We were never properly introduced.

As far as I'm concerned her personal ideas about things, as far as I know, are not disqualifiers for anything at all.

Besides, she asked for permission and I gave her permission. In retrospect, I probably would not give such permission if such a thing happened again. On the other hand, several women have run their fingers through my beard, but I knew them and welcomed it. It's different if a stranger does it, but she did ask if she could first, and I allowed her to do it. In that sense, it was different from the Biden/Flores situation.

[MaryMagdaline]

18. Understood. Thank you

[mitch96]

19. ""Excuse me. May I touch your beard?""

First thing I thought of was, what was on her hands??? Did she just go to the toilet? Eat a ham sandwich? Touch a previous flee infested beard?? Then again, that's me... ymmv..
m

[MineralMan]

21. Well, the beard was clean. I had just showered.

I shampoo my beard whenever I shower, which is daily. I did not consider the cleanliness of her hands, though. Perhaps I should have.

[Tipperary]

20. Eewww. That is just gross.

I would be tremendously weirded out if someone came up and asked to touch my hair. As someone else pointed out, you have no way of knowing where her hands have been.

Besides, that is just very, very weird. Gives me the ick shivers.

[MineralMan]

22. Well, it was definitely odd, to be sure.

I'm not a bit germophobic, though, which is probably why I didn't even think about that. It was clear, though, right away that it was some sort of fetish for her. The look in her eyes made that clear, so that was icky, as you say. I never considered it a sexual assault, though, because my beard is not a sexual thing. I have it because it saves me about five minutes a day that would be wasted in shaving. Really.

[MoonRiver]

23. I was at a school reunion for my husband's high school class.

We were in line to get food, and suddenly a "friend" of his put his hands on my waist and started rubbing up and down my hips. Lasted for a few seconds, until I bolted and moved in front of my husband to get away. When we had some privacy I told him what had happened. He went over to the jerk and quietly told him to never touch his wife again. We left the reunion early, before the dancing began because of this. I'd say it's more than a personal space violation, but I've had many of those also.

[Tipperary]

24. Why didn't YOU say something to the creep?

I sure as hell would have.

[MoonRiver]

25. I should have. Guess I was intimidated because it was my husband's reunion.

[MineralMan]

28. Surprise often stops people from telling people to knock it off.

Not everyone, of course, but some people get tongue-tied when they're surprised by something weird like that.

[MineralMan]

26. Well, that was terrible. How could he have believed

that was OK? I have only gone to one HS reunion, my 50th. There was a great deal of hugging going on, I remember. But, I don't think any of it was unwanted. I hugged several old girlfriends from high school, but it was always initiated by them, not me. My wife was very amused by all that, and teased me unmercifully. But, I introduced all of them to her and everyone got along famously.

Your story, though, is not like that. I'm glad your husband told him what he did was unacceptable, because is certainly was.

[MoonRiver]

42. They were all complete strangers to me, but I liked most of them.

My husband was an academic big shot in his high school, and that guy was kind of a nobody. Maybe he still retained some jealousy and was getting back at my husband. Or maybe he's just a total jerk.

[MineralMan]

44. I vote for the total jerk theory.

Only a jerk would do something like that to a stranger. Whatever the motivation was, it was a jerk move and highly offensive.

[MoonRiver]

46. I totally agree.

We missed the next reunion because I didn't want to see that jerk again.

[mahina]

30. You know who else gets this all the time? Black people.

Can I touch your hair?

First time I heard that was to a colleague at work, from a customer.

Mercy! Talk about crossing boundaries.

[MineralMan]

33. Yes. I've heard that from several people.

I can't imagine. It must have something to do with thinking people of color are somehow not really people or something. People who would do something like that must consider them to be like animals to be petted or something.

I just can't imagine...truly.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

39. I've heard about that, and I can't even...

Why on earth would someone even ask to do that? Even if they asked to touch, it's still not OK. It's not OK even to ask - it's like treating the person as if they were a pet or a zoo animal.

[mahina]

41. Right?

[Squinch]

40. 1) she asked and you gave her permission. 2) her mouth was

never on you. 3) she was in front of and not behind you. 4) Her hands were not on you.

This is nothing like what Flores described, and I'm really surprised you can't tell the difference.

[MineralMan]

43. I explained that, and no, it was not exactly the same thing.

However, it was a violation of personal space, which is what Flores says Biden's actions were. I have not had exactly the same thing happen to me. There is a kind of equivalency, though, despite the two things not being identical.

Clearly, both Flores and I thought what happened was weird. That was my point. The reactions, though, were different.

[Squinch]

45. No, really there is no equivalence at all. She asked for permission

and you gave it.

The entitlement of touching people in any way that might cross another's boundaries WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION is the crux of the reason what Flores described was unacceptable.

[hlthe2b]

47. +++