Gillibrand on Al Franken : No regrets

[crazytown]

Last edited Sun Feb 24, 2019, 01:08 PM - Edit history (2)

Kirsten Gillibrand, Al Franken & The Perils Of Standing Up To Powerful Men

This past week, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand made it clear that she doesn't regret calling for Al Franken's resignation, despite the how-dare-she anger from prominent Democratic donors, conservative political columnists, and bored men on the internet. On campaign stops and in phone calls with supporters, as well as in Facebook ads that asked for donations, the New York senator and 2020 presidential candidate said she is fighting for sexual assault survivors to be heard and doesn't care if she pays the price for it. ...

"I will stand up to our own party if I need to," Gillibrand told supporters this week at a bar in Iowa City, IA. "And that's what Al Franken's about. And I know Democrats are very sad about Al Franken, I'm sad about Al Franken. But the truth of this issue is very clear, he had eight credible allegations against him that were corroborated in real time, by the press that were investigating it. ... Enough was enough."

"[Gillibrand] was not the only person to call for his resignation; she was among a group of Democratic senators who called for him to step down," Manne told Refinery29. "But Gillibrand is the one who is singled out and blamed. When what she did was take a principled stance — her overall platform is prioritizing the interests of women and being quite progressive on gender politics — she was called an opportunist and a betrayer. I thought that was pretty misogynistic." ...

Rebecca Brubaker, a 22-year-old living in L.A., said she supports Gillibrand because, "She has been a champion for sexual assault victims. That made me have immense respect for her." Sexual assault on college campuses and in the military were part of the core of Gillibrand's legislative agenda in the Senate.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/02/225028/kirsten-gillibrand-al-franken-sexual-harassment-2020-presidential-race

Gillibrand calls for Al Franken’s resignation

[LakeArenal]

1. That tripling down is exactly why she won't win.

[Control-Z]

2. Frankly, I wasn't terribly fond of Gillibrand

before the Al Franken situation though the outcome gobsmacked me. I expected investigations, at the very least. Take Franken out of the picture and I believe I would still feel the same about Gillibrand.

I was already questioning myself about the me too movement and whether or not I was being overly sensitive. I still haven't figured it out and have put it on the back burner just as I have all my life.

I'll leave it at that.

[Trumpocalypse]

21. What investigations?

Franken didn’t commit a crime.

[Control-Z]

103. There were no investigations that I'm aware of.

[Trumpocalypse]

104. Nor would there have been

since Franken was never accused of committing a crime.

[Control-Z]

122. I'm not quite sure what the point is you're

trying to make. IIRC, Franken asked for an investigation. Right? But he didn't get that. Nor was he charged with a crime. Ultimately, he was pushed out by party members.

Am I remembering this correctly?

[Trumpocalypse]

123. Actually he asked for an ethics committee hearing

which is not something like the Mueller investigation and doesn’t determine guilt or innocence just if Congressional ethics rules were violated. It is doubtful that the Republicans on the ethics committee would have given Franken a fair hearing anyway.

And no one pushed him out. While over 35 other Senators did call for him to resign but they had no power to push him out. He chose to resign.

[ailsagirl]

111. Nor was I. Now I really don't like her.

No longer having Franken in the Senate was/is a HUGE loss.

[area51]

173. +1 n/t

[Owl]

191. +2

[trueblue2007]

227. i agree with you 947567385 percent !!!

[Canoe52]

3. "Eight credible allegations" my ass.

[crazytown]

4. "corroborated" "in real time" "by the press"

get with the program

[Funtatlaguy]

15. Allegations of what?

Sexual Assault?
Sexual Harassment?
Sexual Improprieties?
Sexual innuendos?

What EXACTLY was he ever accused of? I never understood that.

[catrose]

29. Exactly. We're supposed to take her word for it.

The allegations we know about took place in public, unlike every other sexual allegation ever, except for Taylor Swift and the Groping DJ.

I wanted the moment to be a shining example of how to do things, you know, with an investigation. Instead we got a rerun of Mean Girls and lost a powerful voice in Washington, the voice that made Jeff Sessions recuse himself.

I'm a sexual assault survivor, and Gillibrand did not support me with her actions. I felt betrayed. Still do.

[dalton99a]

44. +1. She has been very disrespectful to Franken and his legacy

but then this is the same politician who said Bill Clinton should have resigned - after Hillary practically gave her seat to her

[Trumpocalypse]

124. What exactly is Franken's legacy?

I’m just curious as to what accomplishments you are referring to.

[brush]

102. She continues to practice the "big lie" technique...

which is why she's only garnering one percent support in the polls.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

5. I'm not going to vote for Gillibrand. No regrets.

[workinclasszero]

17. Bingo

I figure she drops out real soon.

[RazBerryBeret]

35. that's the best response!

and I agree 100 percent.

[dalton99a]

39. There are far better candidates.

[defacto7]

45. And that's the end of that.

You can either take a path that only makes noise or take one that gets results. This one will get her nowhere.

Now I have 2 down Gillibrand and Hickenlooper.

[ZeroSomeBrains]

119. She won't even get through South Carolina

No regrets here on not wanting to vote for her either.

[quickesst]

6. Gillibrand is a proven opportunist

She is not being criticize for her role in the departure of Al Franken alone. She has a proven history of throwing good people under the bus to advance her own cause. She is not to be trusted. If it came down to gillibrand and drump would I vote for her? Without a doubt it with no hesitation, but I would spend the next four years wondering, worrying, and to some extent fearing what she would do next.

[Trumpocalypse]

22. Proven opportunist?

How so?

The two people who immediately benefited from Franken’s resignation were Corey Booker and Kamala Harris, who both called for Franken resignation within minutes of Gillibrand, got high profile seat on the Judiciary committee a few days later. Are they proven opportunists too?

[defacto7]

47. Thanks for reminding me about Harris and Booker.

[LongtimeAZDem]

51. Thanks to the Smollett case, Booker may be learning to wait for evidence

[quickesst]

63. Well....

How about starting with her transformation from an A+ rating from the NRA to an F rating after being appointed to Hillary Clinton senate seat. Then you have her transformation from an anti-immigrant politician to a pro immigrant politician at about the same time. We will continue with throwing the Clintons under the bus after they campaigned for her. Then there is the Al Franken resignation in which she led the charge for his ouster, thus gaining what she perceived as the moral high ground without giving a thought to an ethics hearing to determine his actual guilt or not, and at the same time eliminating probably the biggest hurdle for her 2020 presidential run. Several top donors and supporters have affirmed there displeasure at her actions against Al Franken and will not be supporting or donating to her presidential campaign. After stating emphatically that she would serve the full six years of her Senate term, 2 Days later confirmed that she was weighing her options as to a presidential bid. All of this is pretty easy to substantiate with a little due diligence.

[Trumpocalypse]

76. So...

No politician is allowed to change their stance on an issue? Was Obama just being an opportunist when he changed his stance on same sex marriage? Elizabeth Warren was a Republican until 1996, is she an opportunist too because she is now a Democrat?

As far as the Clintons, while I don't agree with her opinion, how was it throwing them under the bus since they are no longer running for political office?

And since when is leading the charge defined as making a facebook post less than 5 minutes before several others? The reality that this was a highly coordinated effort among the Democratic caucus: https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/senators-al-franken-resignation/index.html To single out Gillibrand is just unfair.

Plus, you are woefully misinformed about an ethics committee hearing. It does not determine guilt or innocence. It only determines if Congressional ethics rules have been violated. And do you really think that the republican members were planning on giving Franken a fair hearing?

You are accusing Gillibrand of "eliminating probably the biggest hurdle for her 2020 presidential run". Where is the proof of this? You said that it was "pretty easy to substantiate with a little due diligence". So show some credible links that this was her motivation. I'll also add that the immediate beneficiaries of Franken's resignation were Booker and Harris who got high profile seats on the Judiciary committee.

[PatSeg]

179. Most people change their minds on some issues over time,

but Gillibrand has a history of doing so whenever it was politically convenient for her. It makes it hard to actually trust anything she says. She is far from our best and brightest, I'm sorry to say. That said, I really don't see her getting very far in the primaries. We have so many strong candidates to choose from.

[Trumpocalypse]

184. I agree

I don't think she'll even make it to Iowa and New Hampshire. She is too wishy-washy and doesn't generate much excitement. My point is it is unfair to demonize her because she has evolved on issue. Every politician does.

[PatSeg]

187. Yes and you have belabored

that point extensively. Meanwhile, many people have pointed out that she has "evolved" on too many issues to be taken seriously. I don't think people really trust her.

That said, we have a lot of really important issues to focus on right now. Gillibrand would be toward the bottom of my list.

[Trumpocalypse]

189. So others get to evolve and she doesn't?

Warren was a Republican for most of her adult life. This really seems like a double standard.

[PatSeg]

190. We will all look at the various candidates

and make our own evaluations based on different criteria. Meanwhile, this is starting to feel like an argument for the sake of argument and as such is a waste of both our time.

I'm sure we'll talk again.

[Trumpocalypse]

192. This is not about the primary

Gillibrand doesn’t have a chance.

This is about double standards . One person gets demonized while another gets a pass for doing the same thing. It is unfair.

[PatSeg]

207. In a thread of about 200 comments,

you managed to post over 50 times, 25% of the thread. You pretty much are just saying the same thing over and over again. Pointless overkill I'd say. I think everyone here knows how you feel.

[Trumpocalypse]

208. It's not about me either

It’s about basic fairness and holding everyone to the same standards.

[Jakes Progress]

217. I punch a time clock.

That's how I show my work.

There may be many reasons why someone posts so much on only one subject over and over.

[PatSeg]

218. Yeah

I was thinking the same thing. Not terribly subtle sometimes.

[Trumpocalypse]

219. I always know

that I'm winning an argument when I'm personally attacked rather than even trying to refute the points that I'm making.

I'm just speaking up for simple principles of fairness and truth. Sorry that so many are threatened by that.

[Trumpocalypse]

222. Thank again

for proving my point!

[quickesst]

89. I stand by everything I said

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2019, 12:42 AM - Edit history (1)

Well you are correct that the Ethics Committee does not determine guilt or innocence, I firmly believe that a hearing would have brought into the question his guilt or innocence as far as the public is concerned, and the outcome of that hearing would have leaned heavily in favor Franken's innocence.

[Trumpocalypse]

91. Do you really believe that the Republicans

on the Ethics committee would have given Franken a fair hearing?

Do you really think any Senator, Democrat or Republican, would accuse an Army veteran of lying?

[quickesst]

95. Looks like...

.... we'll never know.

[brush]

105. Thank you for laying it out so clearly.

[DBoon]

49. "gives opportunism a bad name"

nt

[quickesst]

66. You are right

There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of opportunity. It is the consequences that matter.

[Garrett78]

7. Franken matter aside, I don't think she's going to gain any traction.

I think she's one (of many) who will drop out before we get to the Iowa caucus. She doesn't really fill any niche and has no regional advantage (like Klobuchar does, for instance).

[Trenzalore]

12. The only thing that will keep her going is money

She'll raise a lot of money from Wall Street.

[Trumpocalypse]

23. I agree

She just doesn’t stand out. She’s too blah and doesn’t generate any excitement.

[brush]

106. Make up your mind. Weren't you just expounding in her favor a few posts above?

[Trumpocalypse]

108. No

I was correcting the unfair demonization of her.

Doesn’t mean I think she is a viable candidate.

Some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time.

[brush]

110. Nice try, but you're all over that thread defending her.

[Trumpocalypse]

114. Yes I am

Because the demonization of her is unfair.

Still doesn’t mean I think she is a viable candidate.

If we believe in truth and fairness, we must be willing to stand even for those we don’t support. If not we are just as bad as the right wingers we oppose.

[brush]

118. BS, she screwed Franken and deserves the scorn.

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2019, 03:23 PM - Edit history (1)

[Trumpocalypse]

120. She and over 30 other Senators

Singling one out is unfair and a double standard.

[brush]

132. You keep pushing the same inaccuracy when I told you on the last thread...

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2019, 08:44 PM - Edit history (1)

on this that she was the first out of the gate on this on SiriusXM satelitte radio (Channel 127) right after the Stone/Hannity/Tweeden hit job story first broke. On that show she not only called for Franken to immediately step down but that Bill Clinton who backed her to take over Hillary's Senate seat, should have also retroactively resigned.

And she kept up the pressure in leading the way to force Franken out. So please cut the crap as if she was just one of 30 senators. Her ambition, gullibility and poor judgement led her rush to judgement and she kayoed a good senator. The others followed her lead, hoping to not be accused of being luke warm against sexual harrassment—not to their credit for sure but Gillibrand led the way so please stop denying it.

[Trumpocalypse]

138. Sorry but that is not the truth

Every credible source note that Gillibrand and the over 35 other Senators didn't call on Franken to resign until the morning of 12/6.

As the article on CNN stated:

Her statement came a day after Gillibrand, who's frequently cited as a potential candidate for president in 2020, struggled publicly to answer direct questions about whether Franken should resign. At an event hosted by Politico, she grew visibly and audibly angry, but would not directly answer the question. "I'm telling you, I'm so angry and frustrated and I'm not going to say that today," she said. "But it is something I am very troubled about."
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/senators-al-franken-resignation/index.html

You're making several accusations to demonize Gillibrand. Do you have any credible sources to back them up?

[brush]

145. I presume you know how to use google. Research the Gillibrand interview...

on SiriusXM (Progressive radion127). It was on as I said right after the hit job story broke, way before CNN.

[Trumpocalypse]

146. Your making the accusation

you provide the link.

Re-read the CNN article, she didn’t call for Franken’s resignation until December 6th, the same morning as most other Democrats.

[brush]

147. There you go again. Dec. 6, the same as other Dems is not accurate.

I told how to find the interview I heard with my own ears. If you don't want to take the effort that's on you.

[Trumpocalypse]

148. No that is the truth

Every credible source says so. Post links to prove your accusations or admit that you can’t.

[brush]

175. You can't rewrite history. Many of us followed the Franken story...

and know definitely that she was the driving force behind him being forced to step down.

I now what I heard on the radio as well (o0u refuse to research it apparently so you can keep repeating the same inaccuracy you do on every thread on this subject) and again, you can't rewrite history, even though you keep trying to.

[Trumpocalypse]

176. I'm not the one trying to re-writer history

Every credible source shows that no one in the Senate called Franken to resign until the morning of December 6th. Here is another article that documents that fact: https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/al-franken-democratic-senators-resign/index.html

And Gillibrand was first to say Franken should resign in a Facebook post, but was followed within minutes by several others, not that she was the ringleader or driving force. I have researched it and the credible sources don’t say anything that disputes that. I asked many times for links to credible sources that prove the accusations and always get the same evasions such as ‘do your own research’.

I have repeatedly posted links to credible sources that support what I’ave stated. All I’m asking that others do the same.

[democratisphere]

8. No regrets? WTF.

Me either.

[dchill]

9. "He had eight credible allegations against him..."

Anyone who begins to believe that buttwash doesn't belong in the Senate, let alone the Presidency. There is NO credible allegation against Franken.

[Trumpocalypse]

30. I agree about Tweeden

But there were 7 other women who accused Franken. I have never seen any proof that they were all lying.

http://time.com/5042931/al-franken-accusers/

[LongtimeAZDem]

42. Except that's not how it works. It's not up to the accused to prove that accusers are lying

it's up to accusers to prove they're telling the truth. "Why would they lie" is not proof.

If all we go by is the number of claims, then vaccines are bad and Bigfoot is real.

[Trumpocalypse]

46. That is the bar for criminal prosecution

not for keeping a job.

And if the same standard was applied to Roy Moore or Brett Kavanaugh and many others, aren't they owed apologies?

[LongtimeAZDem]

48. It's the bar for all forms of critical analysis; law, debate, the scinentific method, etc.

The burden of proof is on the affirmative claim, because disproving a negative claim is often impossible.

[Trumpocalypse]

53. So then

Moore and Kavanaugh are owed apologies?

[LongtimeAZDem]

54. I said the same thing then; just because I despise someone, doesn't mean I don't require proof.

Otherwise, our vaunted "higher standard" is just bullshit.

Edited to add: That's what pisses me off so much about the Franken debacle; I don't believe he was trashed because everyone believed the allegations. I think he was sacrificed under the misguided and idiotic belief that by doing so, the Republicans would have to hold themselves to the same standard.

[Trumpocalypse]

58. So what is your proof?

I agree with your second statement but would add that Franken took one for the team.

[LongtimeAZDem]

61. I don't have any; that's why I said "I believe" and "I think". I could make a case for it, but

I couldn't accuse an individual directly based on just that.

And I don't think Franken "took one for the team"; he was clearly abandoned in the face of a McCarthyist witch hunt, and had no choice.

[Trumpocalypse]

62. He could have chosen to stay and fight

but decided not to. No one held a gun to his head to resign. I don't think that Franken was or is that weak.

[LongtimeAZDem]

65. Ridiculous; it was a witch hunt, and anyone who defended him would have gone down wth him

Any call to examine the facts would have been called "abusing the victims all over again"; the climate of the time was that all accusers were believed, all accused were guilty. It is absolute nonsense to believe that he could have fought it.

[Trumpocalypse]

71. So Franken was a victim

of the climate of the time. I tend to agree with that. But also that he recognized this and took one for the team.

[LongtimeAZDem]

72. I won't quibble with that

[PatSeg]

180. I agree with your assessment

Franken was a sacrifice. I doubt that most of the Democrats in the senate believed the allegations, but as I recall, some later expressed regrets. Should have been more. A promising career was destroyed and we lost a powerful voice.

[LiberalLovinLug]

133. that link with Frankens responses makes her look worse.

With the descriptions of what some of these women claim. All with no proof. That in putting his arm around one, his hand also was on the side of her breast. OMG. Another claims that his hand reached down, as her husband was taking the picture, and cupped her buttocks. Really? Why would he knowingly do that? Especially as an elected official. Others he said he couldn't remember them. And of course Tweeden, the coarse performer that behaved much worse herself, actually grabbing male performers by their privates on stage. She who sat there, pretending to be asleep with a full jacket on, and Al hovered his hands above her breasts and grinned it up for the camera with a room full of other comedians. Decades ago, juvenile school boy humor to be sure, but his profession was a comedian, a profession that society gives more leeway, and they are used to getting more leeway. Especially back then. Context.

Our side has to be so pure and clean we can't even be accused by woman who were organized by Roger Stone and Don Jr. to take down one of their Dear Leader, Dear Father's most ardent effective Senators.

They are fine with a President of the USA stumping for a pedofile candidate, and who brags himself about assaulting women, just because he can.

I'm not saying we reduce our morals down to that stinking pit, but surely we have to at least not throw our own into the pit based on a few scurrilous charges directed by Don Jr. and Stone, before even allowing an ethics review to occur.

I agree that others like Booker, Harris, Sanders, etc.. should also be held accountable. I think its human nature to pick on the most prominent, and first, person who reacts in this ad hock baseless manner. I think the whole party needs make things right with Al.

[Trumpocalypse]

139. So are you accusing all the other 7 women of lying?

Including the Army veteran?

And we should have a higher standard than the Republicans. If we don't, we are no better.

[LiberalLovinLug]

140. Its reported - You decide

I was only laying out the synopsis of their accusations. How either downright fake outrage as Tweeden did in cahoots with Stone. Or accusations made about allegations off camera. And most of all the others can be incidents of things that could be exaggerated, or even misconstrued. His arm is a little too far around her side and lands on the side of her breast. Or thinking his hand slipped on a little too low on her lower back for her comfort.

Maybe Franken, who has championed women's issues, and worked with many liberal women, during his career, has been groping women for fun, right in front of the camera even, haphazardly as a politician over and over. Or maybe Stone and Don Jr. recruited these women to exaggerate their encounters. You can decide for yourself. I have.


And another thing even IF. Which I don't believe. But even IF......how is this juvenile type behaviour, and/or social liberties, any kind of serious predatory sexual assault? How does any of it rise to the level as being so horrid that they don't even need an ethics review to know he is not worthy to continue as Senator?

[Trumpocalypse]

142. Well I wouldn't accuse anyone of lying with out evidence

Is there any evidence that any of the 7 other women were lying or had any contact with Stone or Don Jr. as you have inferred. Please provide links to credible sources.

[wellst0nev0ter]

149. The "Army Veteran" Is A Lying Trumpanzee

We've been over this before, you and the dirty tricksters have nothing.

[Trumpocalypse]

150. Can you prove that?

To date you have never shown any evidence that any of the other 7 women were lying.

[wellst0nev0ter]

152. Can You Prove Why

An alleged sexual assault victim voted for the pussygrabber?

Sit down, you have nothing.

[Trumpocalypse]

155. Still not proof

any of the other 7 were lying. Post links from credible sources that provide evidence to prove your accusations or admit you can’t.

[wellst0nev0ter]

158. Give the names of every single accuser then

You're smart enough. I'll wait.

[Trumpocalypse]

159. Very cute

Here is a summary. http://time.com/5042931/al-franken-accusers/

Now post evidence that proves they were all lying.

[wellst0nev0ter]

160. Names, not summaries.

Can't prove anything without names, Slappy.

Hope you're not faced with unprovable anonymous allegations.

[Trumpocalypse]

161. So you can't prove any of them are lying

Nice to know.

[wellst0nev0ter]

165. So you don't know any of their names

good luck dying on that hill.

[Trumpocalypse]

166. Stop diverting

Prove your accusation that they were all lying or admit that you can’t.

[wellst0nev0ter]

170. Name names

That's how it works.

[Trumpocalypse]

174. No You made an accusation

now prove or admit you can’t. That’s how it works.

[wellst0nev0ter]

182. They made the accusations first

You chose to milk them for what it's worth. The burden of proof is on you, kid.

[Trumpocalypse]

185. Oh now I get it

They have to prove their accusations to your satisfaction but you don't have to prove your accusations at all.

[wellst0nev0ter]

193. The fact they voted for trump proves everything

And like I said, anonymous accusations are worthless without names.

[Trumpocalypse]

195. Proves nothing

And anonymous accusations are not worthless. BTW we all are anonymous here, so does that mean your accusations are worthless too?

[wellst0nev0ter]

198. If I Accuse You Of A Crime

You'd better believe the case will be filed with my name on it. If you are unwilling to attach a name to a serious accusation, then don't complain if allegations attract questions and disbelief.

In any case, those who would rather stick up for trumpanzees first than for a fellow Democrat, especially for a good man like Al Franken, is no Democratic ally.

[Trumpocalypse]

199. Bad behavior is not a crime

and Franken was never accused of one. He lost a job.

And just because someone is a fellow Democrat doesn’t mean we should have a different standard for them than we do for everyone else. That s just wrong, morally and ethically.

And.once again I’ll ask can you show any evidence that all of the 7 women were lying without all the smears and evasions?

[wellst0nev0ter]

200. Like I said, you give me the names

then we can start proving guilt. Until then, you have nothing.

[Trumpocalypse]

201. More diversion

Prove they were lying lying or admit you can’t.

[oasis]

10. No nomination. nt

[Trenzalore]

11. She's Wall Street's chosen Democratic Candidate

She will raise a lot of money from the people that most democrats trust the least.

Franken matter aside I would never choose her in a primary.

[workinclasszero]

18. Cool

Let her waste the money of wall street pirates, it's all good!

[Trenzalore]

19. Unfortunately they will get their money's worth

She will still be a Senator and a more progressive President will have a new Max Baucus like character shitting on legislation.

It will be 6 years before the good people of NY can show her the door.

[workinclasszero]

20. Yeah well that does suck

no doubt.

[Trumpocalypse]

24. The good people of New York

just re-elected her last November with over 66% of the vote. What makes you think they are going to show her the door in six years?

[Trenzalore]

74. If we win in 2020 and she acts like a Republicrat

I know a certain young ambitious congresswoman who would love to challenge her in a primary.

[Trumpocalypse]

79. But she hasn't in the Senate

In fact she has one of the most liberal voting records and the most anti-Trump voting records:

https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=senate

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/

[brooklynite]

135. Has that ambitious Congresswoman ever had to run in a competitive Primary?

As opposed to a low turnout Primary in a bluer than blue district?

[Zoonart]

28. She is my Senator and she is a Republicrat.

She was drafted to run for the seat explicitly because she could be made palatable to the both the Wall Street crowd, and to the red portion of the state west of the Hudson River.

She is a HARD NO for me.

[INdemo]

31. +1

[hlthe2b]

13. It is the large Democratic base who won't support her who truly have no regrets...

--still carrying a big zero percent of the vote on DU and...ditto on the Real Clear Politics polling in Iowa:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/ia/iowa_democratic_presidential_caucus-6731.html

Yup... no regrets.

[DonCoquixote]

14. Even if the whole Franken mess could be erased from time

The fact is, she is a hard centrist candidate in an election where even many moderate voters want to at least tilt the balance more to the left, thanks to trump's outright breaking of the balance. It is one thing to promise that once you are in power, that you will start to lean leftward, well, in part thanks to Hillary Losing, in part because Trump has already done decades of damage, people will not buy that tune as easily as they would have in 2016. We will not something stronger to get the taste of trump out of our mouth, especially since we now know that W. was not a fluke:there really ARE a bunch of Americans who are in no way interested in common good, fairness or even their own damned GOP principles. There really re Americans who are working to make sure the 21st century has the slave markets, the witch hunts, the illiteracy, the deadly working conditions and all the old horrors that never should have survived the 18th century.

In other words, when your health goes from being a bad cold to Pneumonia, you need the stronger doses.

PS: If people consider Gillibrand a crusader for women, they better hope they donot run into the fellow that put in and defended VAWA. Joe Biden may have hang ups, but when it comes to women, or goading Obama into finally supporting Gay marriage, or supporting Obama Care, he has done things that are, to use his words, a "BIG f***ing Deal."

[LiberalLovinLug]

186. I don't know why Democrats are afraid of using the word "right" or "conservative"

when applying it to a Democratic rep. Fuck this "centrist" BS. "Centrist" by any standards looking at the positions they take are right of center. And if that is the case then a "hard centrist" would be a corporatist serving conservative Democrat.

Not meaning to pick on your post, just the straw that broke the camels back. I actually agree with everything you wrote.

[Paladin]

16. This "bored man on the Internet" is glad Sen. Gillibrand is getting some payback. (nt)

[tinrobot]

25. Doesn't matter. She's a boring candidate who will go nowhere.

I've not been impressed by her public appearances. She's got no spark and is rather forgettable. There are plenty of more vibrant candidates out there.

[Trumpocalypse]

43. Agreed

She just doesn't excite people like the other candidates do.

[brush]

107. Spot on. No spark and forgetable.

[IronLionZion]

26. And no DUers will admit to supporting her

she's still at 0% here

[Polly Hennessey]

27. And who cares what she thinks.

I saw her performance in Iowa. No excitement, nothing she said was truly meaningful, and, I agree, she is boooooring.

[Thekaspervote]

32. No regrets here either dear as I would never vote for you in the presidential primary!!

[Jarqui]

55. +1

[bunny planet]

33. I'd be more inclined to think she was sincere

if she also spoke out just as forcefully against Gym Jordan and Alex Azar.....especially in reference to Azar's illegal actions in protecting Jeffrey Epstein....who prayed upon underage women for decades....why no outspoken criticism of him Senator Gillibrand?....only such harsh words for your fellow Democrats with much less egregious and I might add suspect accusations, not for much more scurrilous and evil Republicans whose actions are proven.... I'll vote for her if she's the nominee, but I doubt she will be. For the record, I'm disappointed in Kamala and Bernie and Elizabeth not saying something about Azar too, although Gillibrand is the one who grandstands on this issue. These are glaring omissions in rhetorically speaking out for women.

[Trumpocalypse]

50. Sorry but

that seems like a strawman argument. Neither Jordan or Azar are Senators so it is a different situation. I'm sure if asked Harris, Warren, Sanders and Gillibrand would not say good things about either Jordan or Azar. But to require them to speak out about every person connected to some scandal is unreasonable.

At one time many here attacked Gillibrand for not calling on Trump to resign, but she has repeatedly done so:

https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/politics/trump-resign-gillibrand-sexual-assault/index.html

https://www.nystateofpolitics.com/2018/08/gillibrand-says-trump-should-resign/

[bunny planet]

77. I disagree

I'm not saying respond to every scandal....but to ones that specifically relate to the same issues she says she cares so deeply about.....women and girls and their abuse in the military or any walk in life. I do think it's appropriate for her to respond to that particular scandal. The point especially being that she responded to something much less egregious that Franken was accused of.....and crickets on this.

[Trumpocalypse]

81. You're setting up your own

bar and then demonizing them for not reaching it. That is unfair. Again, I'm sure if any of them were asked the question directly they would not have kind words for either Jordan or Azar.

[bunny planet]

96. Gillibrand set her own bar

It’s hardly unfair to expect her to be as outspoken about a cabinet official as she is about her fellow Senators... and the Senate does have the job of confirming Cabinet Nominees... not unfair at all, since she has often portrayed herself as the candidate with the most focus on women’s issues. This case, with Jeffrey Epstein is so completely grotesque, and such a stain on Azar in his present position and his former one as Florida AG btw, it is hardly a stretch to think that Gillibrand shouldn’t need to be asked before she comments on it.... I can assure you the Republican Senators wouldn’t need to be asked to weigh in if something as heinous had been done by a Democratically appointed Cabinet official.

[Trumpocalypse]

98. Oh so it is just Gillibrand

that is obligated to speak out on every single case and all others get a pass. That is a double standard. Why is Gillibrand obligated yo say something about a cabinet member who she already voted against. Sorry but it seems like you’re setting a high bar in order to demonize.

[Trumpocalypse]

34. Harris, Warren, Booker and Sanders

All called for Franken to resign the same morning as Gillibrand, some within minutes. Harris was the first to go on TV to call on Franken to resign.

Booker and Harris immediately benefited from Franken stepping down by gaining seats on the high profile Judiciary committee.

So the real question is why is Gillibrand the only one singled out for it?

[LongtimeAZDem]

36. It's a strike against all of them, IMO

[defacto7]

52. +1

[crazytown]

38. Gillibrand was the first and the hungriest.

She lead the pack.

[Trumpocalypse]

41. Hungriest??

How so?

And she led the pack by mere minutes.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/senators-al-franken-resignation/index.html

https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/06/politics/franken-gillibrand-resign-senate/index.html

[crazytown]

56. They co-ordinated with Gillibrand?

I’ll go first, then you, and then you?

Not buying it but I’m open to argument. How said there was a co-ordinated effort, on the record? Anyone?

[Trumpocalypse]

57. You read the articles

Do you have evidence to dispute them? Do you think that Harris, Sanders, Warren, Booker and over 30 other Senators were just blind followers of Gillibrand?

[crazytown]

73. Look

Whether the pile on was planned on not, ‘Enough is Enough’ is Gillibrand’s ‘I did not have sexual relations with that woman’ moment. It’s what she will be remembered for.

[Trumpocalypse]

78. OK

That was a press conference of several Senators which shows that it was a coordinated effort.

But the first Senator to go on TV to denounce Franken was Harris:

&t=6s

And she immediately benefited from gaining a seat on the Judiciary committee. So why is Harris being given a pass and Gillibrand being demonized?

[SFnomad]

225. This is a good question ... one that you will not get a good answer to

You could ask "Why is BS being given a pass and Gillibrand being demonized?" and you won't get a good answer to that one either.

[Trumpocalypse]

228. Here is the answer I got about

Warren: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=5118

[SFnomad]

231. A good reason? Never .... A lame excuse? Always n/t

[aeromanKC]

37. Gillibrand will not make it to the Single day Debates

The Democratic field is too strong this cycle for a hold your nose candidate to win.

[crazytown]

60. Yeah

“Starting around 11:30 a.m. ET, the senators posted statements in a coordinated effort, one after the other, on social media”

And I need more than CNN’s word in it.

[Soxfan58]

40. No Regrets

No support. She's on the bottom of the heap and will stay there.

[rzemanfl]

59. Waiting for that "post removed" person to respond. n/t

[NurseJackie]

64. And I also have "no regrets" about giving her less than a whit of consideration.

She's clearly a "ringleader" when it came to railroading Franken... but I just can't see her as "leader" of our nation.

[USALiberal]

69. +1000! nt

[USALiberal]

67. Looking forward to her dropping out! nt

[JDC]

68. She has Zero Point Zero percent backing here, on DU, in the primary poll

She is the only one with that "backing" - of all of the candidates listed.

Kinda says a lot.

[Bradshaw3]

70. Taking down Franken is "standing up to powerful men"?

Really, Al was one of the bullies in Washington who could snap his fingers and destroy people? Sheesh.

[Trumpocalypse]

80. Warren called for Franken to resign too

and the very same morning as Gillibrand. Isn't it a double standard to give Warren a pass while demonizing Gillibrand?

[tonedevil]

86. Perception...

isn't necessarily fair nor does it always match up with the facts. Senator Gillibrand has been named the spearhead of getting Senator Franken to resign. She is stuck with that as it is unlikely the public perception will change. If the feeling was that it was better Senator Franken resigned she would benefit from that, but I think he has been viewed increasingly sympathetically since leaving office and her perceived first mover status is being held against her as a result.
Is it a double standard? I suppose it is. That won't help Senator Gillibrand though will it?

[Trumpocalypse]

92. Very True Perception vs Reality

But don’t you think we all have a responsibility to call out perception when it doesn’t reflect reality.

[tonedevil]

94. In this case...

it seems to me you have become Don Quixote. Unless I have missed something I don't think your campaign has changed anyone's mind on this situation. For me it would be a complete waste of time to try since I don't think she is a strong candidate and I don't think she is who I would like to see in the White House. If the general perception was that we are better off without Senator Franken she would have been the hero.

[Trumpocalypse]

100. Forgive me if I misunderstood

But are saying that we shouldn’t stand up for truth and fairness if it’s too hard?

I wonder what the world would be like today if people like Rosa Parks or Winston Churchill or Gandhi all felt the same way?

[LongtimeAZDem]

88. She was one of the last to do so, and she didn't give

a reason. She didn't weigh in on the veracity of the accusations, she just said, "I think he should resign". By the time she said that, he was already effectively keelhauled, and the GOP was attacking her for not speaking up.

Gillibrand, on the other hand, clearly took the position that Franken was guilty, and led the charge.

While I blame Warren for piling on, their actions are not comparable.

[Trumpocalypse]

99. So Warren was just a blind follower

who jumped on the bandwagon? And if she didn’t believe the accusers, shouldn’t she have said so and defended Franken? None of that speaks well for Warren’s character if true.

[LongtimeAZDem]

109. I don't think you're serious; I think you're just trying to provoke. Adios

[Trumpocalypse]

112. I'm just trying to understand

the double standard. Why are Bookrt, Harris, Sanders, Warren and over 30 other Senators given a pass , yet Gillibrand demonized?

[LongtimeAZDem]

113. I've not only explained about Warren, I specifically said, "It's a strike against all of them, IMO"

So , I think you're trying to draw a foul, and I'm not interested in playing. Have fun.

[Trumpocalypse]

116. I'm trying to understand

the explanation. It doesn’t make sense to me. Demonizing one person while giving a pass to other for doing the same thing is a double standard.

[Mira]

75. She will never have my vote

no matter what. I just could not do it.

[CrossingTheRubicon]

82. "Sen. Franken has said that he will be making an announcement about his political future tomorrow.

The right thing is for him to resign. We are now at a crossroads in American culture. And it is an important one. The way we treat women in our country has been abysmal in almost every way. We are finally addressing the issue of sexual harassment, and we need to get it right. But the conversation we are having now is only the tip of the iceberg. It needs to be an ongoing movement of women and men that includes a national discussion about sexism, sexual harassment, objectification, inequality and abuse of power.

Announced, without irony, by Bernie Sanders

[Generic Brad]

83. She may regret it if she does not get the nomination

That move got her on the map, but maybe not for the right reasons.

[EveHammond13]

84. Al Franken was the one who got Sessions to recuse... without that.....

[tblue37]

85. Nope. nt

[Cetacea]

90. It was a classic double-bind.

Last edited Sun Feb 24, 2019, 10:24 PM - Edit history (1)

And Bateson said that the only way to escape the untenable position of being in one is to "leave the field". Some people are stuck in double binds and cannot leave the field, eg, a woman with children living month to month and who is totally dependent on an abusive husband. A better example would be a child who is being abused by loved one he or she is dependent on. In a classic double-bind, even communication is a double-edged sword. A child cannot communicate the abuse to anyone.

Franken had no choice but to leave. It was his only choice, really, and the safest, health wise.

If he fought it, he'd be insulting the base for essentially implying that all women lie about matters like this. If he stayed on, there was a chance we'd have lost the Moore race and he'd be blamed for it. Dems would have been accused of double standards. Even resigning would make him appear guilty despite Dem leadership demanding it. He had to leave the field.


on edit: argggg! Franken

[LongtimeAZDem]

97. We'll stated. You meant "Franken", of course, but well stated

[Cetacea]

121. Thanks for the heads-up

And the feedback.

[Adrahil]

93. That seals her fate, IMO

I’ve never neen a fan, really, but this seals it.

She’ll be out after Iowa.

[pamdb]

101. gillibrand

I hope she doesn't run because I don't want to vote for her.

[Gothmog]

115. I will be supporting other nominees before I support Gillibrand

She is way down on my list due to the Al Franken incident.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

117. And that's why barring her getting the nomination she won't get my vote

[Awsi Dooger]

125. I'm trying to imagine a series of circumstances that makes her a contender

The idea that she could run for president is about the worst instincts I can remember

[Guilded Lilly]

126. I am not...

a prominent Democratic donor, conservative political columnist or a bored man on the internet...
I don’t like her and probably never will.
And I don’t regret not supporting her for one moment.
I don’t want her as our candidate.
And it isn’t only about Al Franken.

I also know damned well she doesn’t care about my already staunchly committed Democratic Party vote either.

[walkingman]

127. I think our nation dearly misses Al Franken - enough said.

[brooklynite]

134. "Our nation"?

I suspect that even the average Democratic voter doesn't care particularly. Party advocates are not a significant share of the national electorate.

[walkingman]

136. I disagree. I think the average voter, Democrat or Republican, wants elected Legislators that are

honest, stand up for their values, and do so with integrity. If you mean by "party advocates" those that represent the Democratic party....40% of all voters in party registration states are Democrats, 29% are Republicans, and 28% are independents.

I view independents as those that don't understand Party platforms or maybe ashamed to call themselves one party or the other. Really dumb because our political system is a 2-party system and it is virtually impossible to win any national election as an independent.

[brooklynite]

137. Of course they want honest legislators...and they have them

In their viewpoint Al Franken left under a cloud and was replaced by Tina Smith who meets all those categories. Very few voters are dwelling on what Franken might have accomplished and what caused him to leave.

[Indykatie]

128. Someone Should Ask Her if She Regrets Being Stuck at 1% in Polls.

I certainly don't regret it.

[brooklynite]

156. How is she "stuck"?

She announced a month ago. Polling today is largely built on name recognition.

Are you convinced that Sherrod Brown, Julian Castro, Eric Holder, John Hickenlooper and Steve Bullock are also concerned? Are Amy Klobuchar and Cory Booker "stuck" at 3% AND 4%?

[mn9driver]

129. 8 credible allegations? Corroborated in real time by the press?

Um, no. Just no.

[pecosbob]

130. Don't give up that Senate seat, dear if you wish to remain in politics...just my opinion.

[IluvPitties]

131. Go home, Kirsten.

You won't win.

[NurseJackie]

141. So glad this OP keeps getting kicked to the top...

... it just reignites the seething anger I have. I'll never forget, and I'll never forgive the ringleader who railroaded Franken.

[MustLoveBeagles]

143. I won't forgive or forget either

I won't forgive or forget either and it's not just because of Al Franken. She also stabbed the Clinton's in the back AFTER she benefited from their help. I haven't picked a favorite among the candidates yet but she is one of the few who wouldn't get my vote in the primary. If she wins the nomination I will vote for her but I don't see that happening.

[NurseJackie]

144. Don't worry. It won't be her. She'll never be the nominee.

She doesn't have the "chops" or the demeanor that I'm personally looking for in a presidential candidate. Side by side with Harris, she comes off as being a bit mousy and reserved. Is that why she "overcompensated" when it came to Franken? Was she already planning a run for the presidency and simply needed an issue that she should manipulate? I don't know. It's possible I suppose, but difficult to say for certain.

All I'm saying is, anyone can be a ringleader... but it takes something else entirely different, something special, to be viewed as a true leader. She just doesn't "check-all-the-boxes" for me.

[brooklynite]

151. Anger is a bad emotion to incorporate into politics...

...it distracts one from reality.

[NurseJackie]

177. No it's not.

Anger is a bad emotion to incorporate into politics...

Oh good grief! No it's not. It's invigorating. It's motivating. It helps to focus one's attention on the task at hand, or on the enemy to be destroyed. Anger is a very useful emotion.

...it distracts one from reality.

So, you're saying is that I have lost touch with, or that I'm "distracted from" reality? You know perfectly well that's not the case.

[Eliot Rosewater]

194. Some people dont have to worry about ANYTHING so anger doesnt come as easily to them.

Money solves lots of problems.

[NurseJackie]

196. I guess it also helps if you know a lot of really really important people, too.

[ehrnst]

178. "The tone argument" (also tone policing)

is a logical fallacy that occurs when an argument is dismissed or accepted on its presentation: typically perceived crassness, hysteria or anger.

The fallacy relies on style over substance. It is an ad hominem attack, and thus an informal fallacy.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument

[NurseJackie]

229. I find the "watch your tone, Missy" admonitions to be very sexist.

The fallacy relies on style over substance. It is an ad hominem attack, and thus an informal fallacy.

I find the "watch your tone, Missy" admonitions to be very sexist. Why is it that this is a common attack against women, but rarely one that's hurled at men? (I'm sure there are exceptions, but generally speaking, that's my observation.)

[ehrnst]

232. Right up there with

"You're cute when you're mad."

[Tarc]

153. Good for her, she was right to call for his resignation

Been over this ground many times.

[USALiberal]

171. LOL, yea, it seems to be helping her! Nt

[shanny]

154. Too bad

for her.

Road to nowhere.

[Jarqui]

157. We're blessed with a lot of good candidates

I liked Al and don't care for how it all went down.

It turned me off Gillibrand.

I suppose I could forgive or look past it but with all the other good candidates, I don't have to in terms of the primary.

[brooklynite]

162. Do the "other good candidates" include Warren, Sanders, Booker, Brown, Klobuchar and Harris?

...all of which joined Gillibrand in calling for Franken to step down?

[Jarqui]

167. Yep

She led the charge

[brooklynite]

168. So you want to support a candidate who's that easily led by the nose?

[Jarqui]

169. More than the one who instigated it, yes

[USALiberal]

183. Really curious why you do not like Frankin. Nt

[Ferrets are Cool]

163. "corroborated in real time, by the press"

REALLY? If I say what I'm thinking, I will be in trouble.

[NanceGreggs]

164. "Eight credible allegations against him ...

... that were corroborated in real time, by the press that were investigating it."

What does that even mean?

Tweedon's story was blown out of the water within hours.

Another "credible witness" claimed that he grabbed her ass in front of her husband - AND a crowd of on-loookers in a public setting. (No such other witnesses to this alleged event have ever come forward.)

No women who Franken has worked with have ever spoken a word against him. Are we really supposed to find a woman who claimed "he touched her waist during a photo-op" credible?

Enough is enough all right. And if Gillibrand thinks she can ride this lame horse to the nomination, she's delusional.

[PatSeg]

181. Or how about the woman

with the happy smile having her photo taken with Franken? On camera? And we're suppose to believe he was doing something inappropriate at that moment?

We know how republican operatives work, yet too many Democrats fell for this charade. Even worse, too many Democrats in the senate did not apologize for asking Franken to resign. Republicans know how to push our buttons and how we will react. They'll do it again in a heartbeat, we need to fortify our defenses.

[nolabear]

172. Fine. Bye.

She doesn’t have any appeal for me whatsoever. I’d take Kamala, Joe, Beto or Amy first.

[IronLionZion]

188. She still has 0% on DU

no one will admit to supporting her candidacy for president

[Blue_Tires]

197. I got no problem with the resignation, BUT

we missed a huge opportunity to twist the collective arm of the GOP into eating one of their own in the process...

[beachbum bob]

202. why she is not suited to be a leader,

nothing more to say

[Sneederbunk]

203. Sanders, Booker, Warren, Harris and Brown supported resignation.

Disqualifying?

[crazytown]

206. At the very least she made the call to go first.

The QB carries the can. And, as she says, she regrets nothing. She’s proud of her work. Hundreds of women she says have come up and thanked her she says. Fine. She own’s it. Period.

[wellst0nev0ter]

223. Yes.

Next question?

[hoosieib2]

204. Lol...

Wonder if this might be why she is polling at 1%

[brooklynite]

209. So, Julian Castro (1%) was also responsible for getting Franken to step down?

How about Amy Klobuchar, polling at only 3%?

If you don't support Gillibrand, no problem. If you're going to claim that the Franken situation has some impact on her campaign, please provide evidence.

[brooklynite]

211. On THIS site? Certainly.

Out in the real world? I've seen no sign that this an issue on the minds of the average voters. (nb - I knew Franken's campaign team; never heard anything from them either)

[brooklynite]

213. "Liberal Groups on FB"...

...are, like DU, self-selecting groups of political activists and unrepresentative of the entirety of the Democratic electorate.

[brooklynite]

215. I've never identified myself as an average voter...

...but one thing I DO claim is to take a strictly objective view of political data; it makes my funding and political decisions far more accurate.

[BlueTsunami2018]

205. Never considering voting for her, no regrets.

Nice how that works.

She has zero chance of winning the nomination so there’s zero chance I’ll ever vote for her.

[ucrdem]

220. Nothing will come of nothing

And that's all I'm gonna say.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=candidates

[BlueMTexpat]

224. Well, she was not

among my preferred candidates. And now she never will be.

She seems to be an excellent Senator. She should continue being that.

[elfin]

226. And I have NO regrets for putting her on my "never support" list.

If she somehow wangles a Pres.or VP slot, I will vote for the ticket, but NO $ or signs or door to door etc.

[crazytown]

234. ...

[JCMach1]

230. No regrets not considering her either

Kinda works both ways...

[Gothmog]

233. Kristen Gillibrand has no mechanical problems, 11 years of her full tax returns available for public

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

235. Frankenstein comes up in the comments to this article

Link to tweet