What about student loans constitutes a "crisis"?

[Recursion]

What is the crisis here?

People keep saying "there's over a trillion dollars in student debt!" but never indicate what they think an appropriate amount would be.

Student debt allows income-based repayment, so that if you make less than $25K, you don't have to pay anything, and if you're supporting a spouse and 2 kids on $35K you pay the huge sum of $5 / month. If you're having to choose between food and student loans, you need to switch to the income-based repayment. (I mean, I've lost my job and had a really hard time actually contacting my loan servicer to reduce my payments because my loans got resold so many times -- this is an irritant but not a "crisis".) And for that matter for a lot of borrowers, standard repayment is a bad idea: if your debt is over a certain amount compared to your income, you're much better off just paying the minimum for 20 years and then having the rest discharged.

Student debt is forgiven after 20 or 25 years (depending on when you borrowed) of income-based repayment, so it's not "a lifetime" of debt despite the fact that people keep saying so.

Student debt is overwhelmingly held by the richest third of the country (and as mentioned above if you have low income you don't have to pay much if anything at all).

What exactly is such a crisis about a trillion dollars of debt that allows income-based repayment and is discharged after a fixed period of payment? Is this a serious enough crisis to divert a trillion dollars that could instead be used for the poorer half of the country?

[msongs]

1. its a good campaign thing - vote for me and I will cancel all your obligations nt

[Recursion]

2. The Democratic Party: confusing the aspirations of the middle class with the needs of the poor

since 1992. Oy.

[Demsrule86]

46. +1000

[Magoo48]

11. Forgive all student debt now.

[Recursion]

13. That makes inequality worse

Giving a trillion dollars to the richest 3rd of Americans is not a good way to decrease inequality.

[Magoo48]

16. No. It releases the youth of our nation to be dynamic and enthusiastic.

They are indentured by design as a way to control and oppress their spirits. It is better for our society to allow our young citizens to run free and unburdened into the storehouse of challenges we’ve handed down to them.

[Recursion]

18. Comparing student loans to indentured servitude is gross and offensive

If you think the income and repayment formulas need to be tweaked, yeah, I'll listen to that. But straight up handing a trillion dollars to the most privileged third of the youth is a non-starter for me.

[Magoo48]

20. Perhaps I've only met the 2/3s of young citizens who are crushed and smothering

under the weight of these greed tainted monetary burdens and the corrupt financial complex which spawned them.

[Recursion]

21. They are "crushed" and "smothering"?

Seriously?

If they have to make standard repayments they make at least $55K a year. That's absolutely not who I'm worried about.

[boomer_wv]

27. And you have

The option to work in a public service position and have tour debt forgiven after 10 years.

[pnwmom]

72. The median household income in 2016 was 59K a year. 55K is not rich.

And these struggling loan holders are not just people straight out of college. Many people in their 30's are struggling with these loans, and $55K a year isn't by any means "rich" for a family.


$59,039
The U.S. Census Bureau reported in September 2017 that real median household income was $59,039 in 2016, exceeding any previous year.

[Recursion]

73. Median individual income is $32K

So, yes, an individual who earns roughly what the median household does is obviously "rich".

[pnwmom]

75. Most people in their 30's are in a household, and the household income's what is used

to determine debt forgiveness.

Should they have to stay single for twenty years in order to have an income low enough to qualify?

If two people combine their 30K incomes in a household, suddenly they both live in a household with a $60K income, and they're ineligible for the loans (assuming your 55K number is correct). But they're not rich.

[choie]

130. People in their 50s, 60s, and 70s plus

are still struggling. What about people who go back to school when their older?

As a social worker, I see a number of people - 70 years old, 80 years old, who are having their Social Security garnished to pay back their loans.

[Demsrule86]

42. Oh please...an exaggeration if I ever heard one.

[Demsrule86]

44. No, it is not better for our nation to do this...absolutely not.

[Demsrule86]

48. Our youth to run free? OK then. And where does this money come from?

[Magoo48]

62. Cut the bloated military budget and everybody has a free education and healthcare.

These are long-standing progressive goals which are roundly ignored by “moderate” Dems who fall in line with the MIC’s empire building, endless wars, and deep pockets. “Where’s the money come from” is the oldest dodge of all. The money is there; it’s simply being misappropriated. And, there’s more money to be had if we tax the super rich fairly.

[Demsrule86]

76. Do you understand that what you suggest won't happen? How about some solutions for student

debt that have a chance of really happening...like cancelling the interest, make more loans available for forgiveness after a certain period of years or some other condition. I can think of different ways...but a 680 billion or a one trillion student debt forgiveness plan is not not going to happen.

[Magoo48]

152. The difference here is I believe real change is possible.

Unless massive reallocation of our national wealth and energies are directed through the lens of climate crisis, all else will be rendered moot. I will vote for Joe if he’s our candidate, nevertheless, from the pov professed by the latest climate science, that vote will be shrouded in pessimism. Student debt relief will free up minds desperately needing free range to attack environmental calamities the majority of “leaders” have no serious interest in addressing.

[dansolo]

151. Not even close

Look at the numbers. Eliminating the entire military budget wouldn't pay for M4A. All of the tax increases being proposed won't pay for it either. And if there isnt enough to pay for free healthcare, there wouldn't be any money to pay for all of the other things being promised.

[Magoo48]

153. I disagree.

[Gore1FL]

104. It's not giving it to the richest 3rd of Americans.

It's taking it from billionaires and giving it to over-burdened youth.

[UniteFightBack]

26. And THAT is why we lose....I'm DONE with losing. DEMS VOTE WITH YOUR HEADS. nt

[Magoo48]

32. This is primary season. Progressive ideas will not damage anyone's moderate stance or candidate.

Not everyone sees the marriage of corporate America and national politics as a good thing.

[Recursion]

70. Is giving the richest 33% of earners a trillion dollars a "progressive idea"? (nt)

[Demsrule86]

41. You all act like mortgages, loans etc. just disappear...it doesn't work that way.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

180. Absolutely!! Not to worry... President Sander's got this!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[highplainsdem]

30. +1,000,000

[pnwmom]

47. The OP's claim is not true. Only 39% of federal debt is covered by loan forgiveness.

https://www.credit.com/loans/student-loans/student-articles/can-you-really-get-your-student-loans-forgiven/

Based on the data currently available from the U.S. Department of Education, most student loans aren’t in a position to be forgiven: Only $505.6 billion, or 39%, of the roughly $1.3 trillion federal student loan portfolio (which includes loans not yet in repayment) is made up of loans that meet at least one requirement for the most common loan forgiveness programs. Even so, not all the borrowers who hold that debt will qualify for forgiveness. But if you meet a specific mix of criteria, you can apply for it.

SNIP

For the most part, loan forgiveness is limited to the federal student loan world, which makes up about 92% of outstanding student loan debt in the United States, according to data from the Federal Reserve and the Education Department. (If you have private student loans, you can skip to later in this article where we talk about bankruptcy and disability discharge, because the rest of this doesn’t apply to you.)

So, what are the legitimate student loan forgiveness options offered by the government? There are several. We’ll start with the most widely available.

[Demsrule86]

49. You can pay less though...and many do. I think something needs to be done...but forgiving all

student debt is not the answer. And giving free college to wealthy individuals will ensure that the poor subsidize them while not being able to participate themselves...saw it with the Hope Scholarship in Georgia.

[pnwmom]

50. The OPs claim is not true. And I don't even know what you mean by "you can pay less though."

Only 39% of Federal student loan debt is in a category that qualifies for loan forgiveness, and not all of that debt is eligible.

[Demsrule86]

61. It is not loan forgiveness...but you can't pay more than a certain percentage of your income...some

pay nothing..Look I have kids ;we saved money to send them to college. They went to state schools...lived at home. One who hates school was helped to get into a big auto company by my hubs who is an engineer. There is no way I want free college for all income levels or for those making 250,000 a year either. I do want to see student loans put back into bankruptcy. I think some sort of forgiveness based on the students doing something in order to get this would be a good idea...it is complicated. We have subsidized (those with relatively low income), non-subsidized (this catches the middle class often) and private loans as well. And we have parent loans too. Parents also have student debt...so there is no easy fix. And I think free college will never work...nor will blanket forgiveness of student debt. My daughter works for a company where one of the perks is helping to pay student debt...she did have some for her master's program...not much. Thee is no quick fix for this but something needs to be done.

[pnwmom]

66. The OP isn't about the merits of Warrens or Sanders program. Regardless, the OP's claims

about debt forgiveness aren't true. 61% of Federal student loans don't qualify for debt forgiveness.

[Demsrule86]

71. But that could change...and it would be easier than what Sanders or Warren has proposed.

And some of the loans don't qualify because they went into default at some some point or are non-subsidized or private...so we can work on this...but first we need to stop letting kids borrow more than tuition...my kid's friends use loans as walk around money or to buy cars. My daughter said she wanted a loan so she could spend a week in New York...when I was done laughing, I said, 'no'.

She can't get loan unless I fill out the paperwork,and I won't. I pay her tuition and living expenses and she gets a food plan and pocket money...(not enough she says) Some stay in school as long as possible wracking up big debt...not all kids but it happens. My kids whine about the old cheap cars I have provided for them...but tough shit. They have a way to get from point A to point B and no monthly payment and no student debt. She has taken longer to graduate than my older daughter so will be able to get loan next year...emancipated. Sadly, I will bet money she takes one out and buys a car. I have no control over this. But at least she won't have a large amount of student debt.

On edit...let's put student loans back in the bankruptcy law as a first step.

[pnwmom]

74. Again, I'm here to respond to the false claim in the OP, not to debate the merit

of Warrens or Sanders programs.

At least we should be having a reality based discussion about them, and saying that all these loans are subject to debt forgiveness is wrong.

[Demsrule86]

77. Fair enough and thanks for the website.

[brush]

80. Why not free college for any one who wants it?

Seems a more educated populace is better for the country. That's the case in many European countries—graduates not starting out in life burdened with 20- year-long debt obligations can help spur the economy by being able to afford homes, autos, etc. therefore creating jobs and homeownership which builds wealth for more secure futures.

[Recursion]

84. Because it leads to much lower college attendance rates

All the countries that do free college have something like half the college attendance rate we do. And in most of them you get tracked for college or a trade school based on a test you take at 13. There are things to be said for this idea, but I don't think most of the country would like it.

[Gore1FL]

105. Do you have a link to support that claim?

My cursory search didn't turn anything up.

[Midnightwalk]

111. Causality?

I’d have guessed the routing of people to trade schools vs free college drove the lower attendance rate (didn’t check that claim).

The lower attendance rate makes it less costly.

I disagree some other things you say in this op, but agree strongly with the idea that making improvements is a better way to address the problems rather than just forgive all loans.

One thing I disagree with is casting this as a battle between poor people vs people making 55k. That mostly means I’d draw the line differently. We also invest in education because an educated society is necessary for a functioning democracy. The two extremes would be stop paying for public education entirely or to make it 100% free through a Phd. There is a lot of room between those extremes.

We have a lot of problems to address with finite resources. It is more prudent to fix the biggest issues and keep some of the money and political support available to address urgent in other areas

Out divided government and republican obstinance and democrats getting only controlling enough of government in sporadic 2 year bursts makes all of us desperate to get a single bill passed that fixes as much as can be crammed in. There are always unintended consequences to changes and those are easier to avoid with smaller changes.

That’s a tough balancing act. If I knew we could maintain a majority of government for 6-10 years I would feel a lot better when I argue against big bang type changes. After 8 years of nixon, 12 years of reagan and his minion, 8 years of bush, trump and all the obstruction in the house and senate for years I understand reluctance to not do as much and as soon as possible

I’d rather see us thinking in terms of what can we get delivered every 2 years that makes it more likely to hold control in the next election.

[brush]

114. Hummm? Free higher education is bad for a country?

What a concept.

[Recursion]

118. No it can be very good for a country, the problem is it requires limiting who gets to go to college

more than we like to do. In Germany people are just kind of OK with the idea that at age 13 you take a test and only the top 25% of people based on that test get to go to college. I don't think that in the US people would be OK with that.

[brush]

119. So we don't test at 13. We do it how America wants. We don't blindly follow the Germans.

We have people smart enough to work out the details.

And please, please, please explain how you, a Yang supporter in favor of a $1000-a-month freedom benefit to every adult could possibly be against free college for everyone?

[Recursion]

121. Because everybody would get the UBI

College loan forgiveness only helps the relatively small fraction of Americans who went to college, and they are already richer than the people who didn't, for the most part.

[brush]

126. That makes no sense saying there's money forthe UBI for even the...

well off but not for free college for everyone, even the well off.

Be consistent, if everyone gets both, no one is disadvantaged.

[Recursion]

131. But not every one gets both. We're talking about loan forgiveness

That only goes to people who already went to college

[brush]

136. Please. That would make their college free too instead of being in debt...

for 20 years.

[Recursion]

137. I think you're mixing up two proposals

One proposal is to, in the future, make college either zero-tuition or debt-free. I think this is a decent idea, especially if we would simultaneously expand vocational and trades education. (But zero-tuition and debt-free are two different questions: Norway has zero tuition but its students graduate with a higher student loan burden than graduates in the US have.)

Another proposal is to take existing student loans, most of which are owed by rich people, and just forgive them. This is what I'm describing as a massive giveaway to the rich.

The two proposals aren't linked or related to one another.

[brush]

140. Not being consistent again. What makes you think only rich people go to college?

I went, as did many of my friends and none of us were rich. We got loans though.

If only the rich went, there wouldn't be so many outstanding student loans. I paid mine off but don't begrudge anyone getting theirs forgiven so they can get on with their lives.

I'm not mixing up the two proposals. They both amount to free college, except for the part of loans already paid off. The
borrowers won't get the paid off funds back, just their balances would be forgiven.

You're for UBI for everyone including the rich but not free college. Can't you see how inconsistent that is? As I said before, if everyone gets both, no one is disadvantaged.

[Recursion]

143. People who go to college make a lot more money than people who don't

One result of that is that most student loan debt is owned by the top third of earners in the US.

[brush]

146. Links please. You're not getting it that if you have thousands of...

dollars of loans to payoff with a payment due every month, you're not rich, you're in debt.

[Demsrule86]

87. It is too expensive...And costs would rise to make it even more expensive.

There are other things we can do to make it better...and handing people things that they don't work even a little bit for is a bad idea. Also in the end, the wealthy would makes sure their kids got into the best schools courtesy of the taxpayers...while poor and middle class kids would have less options...and maybe in the end no options. Also, how many of us have screwed up and got a second chance at college, I would be willing to bet there will be no second chances...and I don't want to subsidize rich kids like the Trump's worthless spawn's college.

[Gore1FL]

106. We subsidize the rich and poor alike with parks, zoos, sidewalks and streets and K-12.

I am OK if they share affordable college, too.

[Demsrule86]

110. I am not...saw in GA what happens...they end up with most of benefits...

[Gore1FL]

122. How does that translate in this case?

Will they have more children to game the system? I can see no other means to get "most" of the benefits.

Affordable higher education used to exist in the country. It can and should again. Our future depends on it. I'd rather a billionaire idiot get cheap college than two impoverished Beethovens be denied the opportunity to go.

[Demsrule86]

124. Read my post...it explains what happened in Georgia where the benefits go mostly to the top

earners. Don't forget the part about Hopemobiles. It is in the thread.

[Gore1FL]

127. The only thing I found on your many posts was an unlinked reference to a scholarship.

That's not what's being discussed. For one thing, scholarships aren't universally awarded.

Prior to Ronald Reagan, higher education was subsidized in this country. Since that time, more cost burdens have been placed on students. The loan rates are higher than I pay for my house. It's not fair to unemployed and newly employed to be burdened by that much debt when they are starting out in life. Who does this benefit? Billionaires. There is a reason this generation is doing worse than the last. This is it.

You are basically arguing that we have to redistribute money from financially unstable kids to billionaires, because if we made education affordable for everyone, billionaires would get an affordable education, too. I submit, I'd rather billionaires get educated for free than someone less well-off being denied the opportunity.

[brush]

116. Exactly. If it's available to everone, no one is disadvantaged.

[Recursion]

138. But it's not available to everyone. It's only available to people with student loan debt

And "people with student loan debt" are by far richer than people without it.

[brush]

142. Excuse me? Those with thousands of dollars of student loan debt...

are richer than those without thousands of dollars of student loan debt?

And up is down and black is white?

[Recursion]

144. People who went to college earn more than people who didn't

A lot more, in fact.

[brush]

147. Newsflash: Not necessarily. It depends on what field you're in.

Many teachers, socialworkers, jouralists, etc. don't make that much. What do you have against people who went to college?

[MichMan]

154. Borrowing large amounts of money for a degree in a low paying field shows a lack of smarts

Someone intelligent enough to graduate from college should have been able to research the expected salary in their field of study before signing up for massive loans.

[brush]

171. So true, but many, particularlly in education, find quickly...

of the need for advanced degrees for advancement—and there is the prestige of it, not a small thing in the field of education.

[Recursion]

158. Not really. The earnings bonus applies to all sectors

There's been a lot of research done on this and it's pretty much unanimous: a college degree is worth a lot of money no matter what field you're in. Interestingly the two highest paid bachelor's degrees overall are history and English.

[brush]

172. i'm surprised you don't know this. In many states new teachers...

start in the low 30k range. That is not a high-paying job to most people. Is it to you?

[Recursion]

173. Teachers get their loans forgiven after 10 years

And if they work in a state that pays their teachers $34K, their income based repayments would be IIRC $5 / month if they have one dependent.

[brush]

176. Get real, the low 30k range is not a high-paying job even if your loan...

is forgiven after 10 years.

Agreed?

[Recursion]

177. Which is why the loans are forgiven.

Good lord you are going to great ends to try to ignore universally agreed on facts: a college degree is a huge wage premium. It's perverse to pretend otherwise.

[brush]

179. And you won't acknowledge that there are many exceptions to that.

[brush]

174. Not in many cases. Many in the trades do quite well. You should research...

that because your research is lacking in depth and not giving you the full story.

[Recursion]

175. Sigh

Seriously, if you are going to bury your head in the sand about the college wage gap, there's no point talking to you.

[brush]

178. Why do I have to keep telling you it depends on the field.

Some college degrees don't command a salary commensurate with some jobs in the trades. Why not just acknowledge that you're wrong about that? In some fields you are correct but not all. For instance, try researching what a BFA degree commands on the job market.

[dsc]

135. You don't have to get a certain score on the SAT

to go to parks, zoos, sidewalks, streets, or k - 12 schools. You do to go to college.

[Gore1FL]

148. OK, the others can get other training.

I'm not here to argue the details. I am here to suggest that when we had affordable education in this country, we did better. We should do it again.

[Recursion]

149. Debt forgiveness doesn't make future education affordable

It just helps people who took on debt in the past.

[Gore1FL]

155. It's a retro-active unscrew.

I am not sure why this is controversial on a Democratic site. "It costs to much to make Government work for everyone" is the basic argument Reagan used to fuck those affected over in the first place.

[Recursion]

157. Because, at the risk of flogging a long-dead horse, it's a huge giveaway to rich people

If you don't understand why spending a trillion dollars, most of which will go to the richest third of the country, is controversial on a Democratic site, I'm not quite sure how to explain it to you.

[Gore1FL]

160. No, it really isn't.

They may have good jobs, but they aren't rich. They were raped by billionaires and didn't really have the wealth in the first place to become as rich as you believe. It's amazing what diverting huge swaths of your paycheck to payback 5-6 digit loans does to your savings and living capacity.

Everyone should have access to an affordable education.

What gives money to rich people is their lack of taxation.

[MichMan]

162. College can be affordable

Attending a community college for 2 years and then transferring to a 4 year college near home is a pretty affordable way to obtain a degree. Or like I did attending at night while working during the day.

Yes it was damn hard and took me longer, but my student loan debt was very manageable. Best investment I ever made.

If you dont like that option and insist on going to an expensive school of your dreams that is your own choice

[Gore1FL]

165. When I was a kid, I went to UM-Rolla. I took 19 hours one semester for less than $1000.

Books probably brought it close to the full $1000. Room and board was $300-$350 a month. That was tough, but it was affordable.

Why shouldn't someone who was born later not have that same affordability? Why does it have to be hard on anyone? What benefit do we get by draining kid's pocketbooks to save billionaires tax dollars?

[Recursion]

170. OK, first, let's reserve the word "rape" for sexual assault, not the lending of money

Secondly, you have asked why it's controversial, and I have told you. You have stated in response that you don't think rich people with student debt count as rich, because they have to spend some of that money paying back the debt. Fine. I don't understand that or agree with you, but I acknowledge that is how you see this.

It reminds me of those profiles the WSJ or whoever does every so often of somebody in a gated community who "only" makes $250K. He'll complain about how little money he has left after he pays his mortgage, HOA fees, and extracurriculars for Caitlynn and Mackenzie. "Sure, it's objectively a lot of money, but there's very little left after I've spent it" -- yes, I acknowledge that is how money works.

[Gore1FL]

181. It shouldn't be controversial on a Democratic site to undo Reagan. nt

[MichMan]

156. Actually, loan forgiveness would make it less affordable

Last edited Sat Jan 25, 2020, 10:30 AM - Edit history (1)

People would borrow even more with the expectation it would also be forgiven. Colleges would most likely raise tuition even higher in response

[Gore1FL]

166. Or we could just fund education in this country again.

Undo Reagan.

[MichMan]

167. Reagan has been out of office over 30 years.

Plenty of time to undo his policies if it was really a priority

Colleges are generally funded at the state level anyway. I dont see that they are any cheaper in blue states than they are in red states

The real question is why they are so damn expensive in the first place?

[Gore1FL]

169. Now we are talking about undoing it and it's controversial.

I find that sort of disturbing.

Why is college so expensive? Off the top of my head, buildings, staff, real-estate, research, equipment, IT infrastructure, laboratories, maintenance facilities, marketing, faculty, libraries, grounds keeping, snow removal, security, administration, campus activities.

[brush]

115. So explain to us why it works in other countries.

Last edited Fri Jan 24, 2020, 07:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Being too expensive is no excuse for the richest country in the world. Why wouldn't we want a better educated country when statistics show that the highly educated usually are more liberal and progressive?

And also explain to us how a Yang supporter, in favor of a free $1000-dollar-a-month benefit for every adult, could possibly be against free college because it's too expensive when Yang's freedom benefit would far outstrip free college in expense?

[Recursion]

57. Because the other 61% is held by the highest 33% of earners

Which, again: we don't need yet another massive wealth transfer to the richest Americans

[pnwmom]

128. Yes, the OP explained those "rich" Americans were those with household incomes of $55K.

Yeah, really rich (and below the national median of $59K in 2016.)

[Recursion]

132. Individual, not household

You keep doing that

[pnwmom]

133. You show me where it says that. I had a student with a loan

and they went by household income, not individual.

[Recursion]

134. It's based on how you filed the previous year

If you filed jointly or as HoH the line isn't $55K it's like $75K or so (it varies by household size). But this is why filing separately is a good idea if one or both spouses have student loan debt.

[nbsmom]

125. Some really good video primers

John Oliver from Last Week Tonight:

Hasan Minhaj from Patriot Act

(There was $6M worth of student loan debt just in the Patriot Act audience.)

[NYMinute]

3. It was a vexatious idea to get millennial votes

Some weasel came up with it and it caught on first as a program, then as a problem and now it has become a crisis. If the campaign drags on it will become a catastrophe.

[Kahuna7]

15. Bingo! Who doesn't want to vote for Santa? nt

[Recursion]

17. I'm a fan of the idea of the government giving people stuff

This just seems like a huge gift to the richest third or so of the country, and that's not who I'm actively worried about.

[liberalmuse]

4. you know what the crisis is?

Borrowing $5k (if you are lucky) because you are poor, then owing 20 times that amount or more because for poor people in this country, higher education is treated like a luxury, not a right. Look where that has gotten us. A nation led by the nose by Fox News.

Money for education is treated like a jumbo loan, packaged and repackaged and sold to the highest bidder until the generations that were unfortunate enough to be born after the most selfish generation are saddled with a student loan mortgage or two. I can’t even express how repulsive this is.

The worst kind of people see nothing wrong with robbing the futures of their children and grandchildren so they can look down their noses at them and scold them for not being as wise as them, meanwhile Pulling up the ladder that helped them get where they are because generations before them sacrificed so they could have it better than anyone before them. Not only that, then squander And piss it all away so there’s nothing left, and then they disparage heir children and grandchildren for wanting to educate themselves, and god forbid, breathe clean air.

I’ve been saying this for decades, “Fuck my generation.”

[Recursion]

5. Poor people don't have to pay anything back

You have to be making $25K to need to pay anything, and the payments are reduced for the poorest 2/3rds of the country.

[BillE]

33. Stop the BS

They may not have to pay while their income is below $25,000, but they still own the money and the interest continues to accrue while they are not paying. By the time they are able to pay, the loan will have increased to a point it would take most of their life to pay off.

[Recursion]

40. That's why it's limited to 20 years

The "lifetime" crap is nonsense

[mrs_p]

81. And then you pay the

Tax bill all at once because the amount forgiven is considered income.

And most public service loan forgiveness applications have been rejected.

[Recursion]

82. The tax hit is a problem I'd like to see fixed

I agree, that part is a problem

[Demsrule86]

65. So do something about the interest...freeze it. That would cost way less money than Warren's plan.

[KT2000]

6. that issue is a bad one

it turns away people who see it as a probable tax increase for the Dems to give some a free ride. That is what I have heard from some fence sitters anyway. Believe me, they have latched onto this one.

[pnwmom]

7. The amounts are crazy high for students now -- college costs have been rising much higher

than overall inflation.

And the terms of today's loans aren't as generous as yours were. I know people in their fifties who are still paying off student debt. What types of loans are forgiven after 20 or 25 years?

[Recursion]

8. All student loans are forgiven after 25 years

Loans originated since 2014 are forgiven after 20 years. That's how all of them work. It's why I have no idea why anybody with a high student debt load is trying to rush to pay it off.

[Demsrule86]

51. Interesting.

'The Pay As You Earn Repayment Plan qualifies you for loan forgiveness after 20 years of on-time payments. This repayment plan will generally offer you the lowest monthly payment. ... Forgiveness based on 20 or 25 years of on-time payments is only available to Federal Student loans. Private student loans do not qualify.'

[Recursion]

56. Good point: private student loans are a whole nother world

But I don't think any of the plans being thrown around touch them

[Throck]

67. Never heard that.

I know teachers in their 60's still making payments for their master's degrees completed in their 20's.

[squirecam]

107. Teachers

And those in certain public professions should be subsidized or forgiven.

But not everyone.

[Throck]

141. I swear, medical professionals die in debt.

[Recursion]

145. Teachers can have their loans forgiven after 10 years

It's a great program

[mrs_p]

83. IBRs May be forgiven

After decades of paying back.

Not all loans.

Depends on the program.

[bucolic_frolic]

14. Colleges breed their own inefficiencies

Bigger, newer, better, larger buidings, but they often lack money to maintain the older ones. Endowments grow and grow but tuition goes up and up. Hidden senior professors who teach classrooms with hundreds of students while assistants grade the work. Alumni tapped for endowments to fund pet projects.

Seems like colleges get more and more cash, but never seem to catch up. Their free money just keeps raising the cost of education. Government funding, even student loans, are part of the largesse. Students pay for this, or at least sign up to pay. I never knew we forgive loans after 20 years now. News to me. My bachelor's degree was about 10 grand, and just as worthless.

[NCProgressive]

9. It is just election year pandering

to attract college students' votes.

There is no crisis.

[Betty88]

10. 20 years of ON TIME PAYMENTS

Miss one, be late on a few and no forgiveness for you

[Recursion]

12. Well, you still get the discharge

It's just delayed by however long you were delinquent

[pnwmom]

38. This is about Federal student loans and I see no blanket claim like you are making.

https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/forgiveness-cancellation

[Demsrule86]

53. Then don't miss one or be late.

Seems like a good deal to me given how much more college educated people make than those without college. We could tweak that though...and a hugely expensive plan to forgive all student debt is not the answer...how about no interest on government student loans?

[Recursion]

59. Tweaks like that are a great idea

Cancelling Federal Student Loan interest, or lowering the income-based payments, are a much better use of a trillion dollars

[ecstatic]

19. I didn't know that. Is it automatically forgiven, or do you

have to apply or approach the loan administrator?

I assume I'm not on income based repayment since I haven't provided income information (unless they get it directly from the IRS?).

[handmade34]

29. you must apply for IBR

and it is great if you stay on top of it... the best advice I have for people with student loans is DO NOT ALLOW YOURSELF TO GO INTO DEFAULT! or fail to file annually for the IBR

this is one of the concerns people (who have limited income) have about student loans, if they are not constantly on top of them...

"...under current rules the collection charges for defaulted Direct Subsidized and Unsubsidized Loans and PLUS Loans may be up to 25% of the outstanding principal and interest balance of the loans or up to 20% of each payment on the loans. (More precisely, the current rates are 24.34% and 19.58%, respectively.) Collection charges are deducted from all voluntary and most involuntary payments on a defaulted federal education loan."

I acquired my student loans later in life and my focus since then has been to help my kids pay off their loans... so here, at retirement I still have loans (in IBR) and one reason they are as high as they are is because at one point I went into default and many charges were added... it took a herculean effort to get myself out of default and now I will die with student loans (knowing that my student loans die with me)

[rabid_decline]

22. I'm not a millennial

I’m a Gen-Xer. And have had lots of colleagues saddled with huge amounts of student loan debt. I worked hard, AND went to college. A shitty private college with a sales pitch on how much we could improve our livelihoods obtaining that degree. But since I was 15, I had my goals set on being a Graphic Artist, so I went for it. For starters, this fucking school had a way of sucking up all spell Grant money every quarter that I qualified for. So unlike others who went to universities I never saw a dime of that money. I couldn’t buy a car with that money or even a personal computer. I suffered and sacrificed for years to get my degree!
After obtaining it, I managed to land my 1st job (even though that shitty school guaranteed job placement). I cut my teeth in the newspaper industry. You wanna know what my ducking wage was? $8.50 per hour!!! You wanna know what it was when I left half a decade later? $9.36 per hour!
Luckily I saw the writing on the wall and left for the casino industry, where I made nearly twice as much. But guess what? It was 72 miles away, on an Indian Reservation where I commuted another half decade. I didn’t qualify for that stupid-assed income adjustment but it didn’t account for how much I spent on gasoline or operational costs! I stopped paying on that fucking loan a long time ago. Last I inquired the interest is $6 a day!!!! It is the ONLY debt I’ve had in my life! I’ve never had a credit card or a car loan. I bought my shitty house in a real estate contract and paid it off in seven years. I’ve sacrificed plenty in my life, but I’d gladly accept getting that loan off my head. It is disproportionately expensive, has an unfair interest accrual rate, is inflexible, and the college I went to was predatory. I’m still a graphic artist-working elsewhere, underpaid, and still struggling. I never started any marriages or a family because of the sacrifices I made in early adulthood. Now I don’t even have that. Screw people who have that “well I got mine” attitude. It’s that same paradigm we hear from Republicans.

[Recursion]

23. What do you mean you didn't qualify for income based repayment?

If you made $9 / hour you absolutely qualified for it.

[rabid_decline]

24. Not when I ended up in the casino industry

I made $20 something an hour when I went on to the casino industry. I didn’t qualify for the income adjustment. And I was commuting at a time when gas prices were over $4.80 a gallon. I live in a pretty rural, poor state. One of the poorest. I tried negotiating with those dickheads from nelnet (the private loan manager Uncle Sam contracted it to) and they wouldn’t budge. I’ve had friends who’ve gone to the same school and who are getting garnished. They’re pretty much condemned to a life of working under the table. I did qualify when I worked at the paper, but had to leave so that I could pay on the house. And the newspaper industry was in it’s death throes. So I left just in time.

[Demsrule86]

39. Obama really helped with student loans...I had kids in college before Obama and after Obama..

Under Bush the banks had student loans and red lined entire towns or counties...the banks wanted a co-signer even on guaranteed loans and you could begin the process the day after classes began and still not have your money in time for the next semester. Obama took the loans away from the banks. The student loans up to a certain income level are low interest...subsidized and unsubsidized. The process is easy and there is no more redlining or co-signing. We do need to improve Pell grants as this would help the poorest of the students. Obama also sent help in terms of repayment...Davos that witch has tried to destroy this but there is still help available.

Warren's plan won't ever become law so why waste time and energy running on it? I don't like the plan myself although I would still vote for Warren as my second choice should Biden falter...not a voting issue for me. Let's do what we can with bankruptcy and find ways for students to earn a discharge of their student debts...which would be acceptable to many if not most Americans. And let's send some help for non-college trade schools and some apprentice programs as well...not everyone wants to or should go to college.

[Demsrule86]

55. I'm a genxer...too..we all make choices. I went to state college and lived at home...worked my way

through college. My Dad didn't believe in debt and never did the paperwork for loans...so I graduated with no loans. I thank my Dad everyday for this. Now it is harder these days but plenty of kids still do it. My daughter's boyfriend worked his way through college and has no debt.

[mrs_p]

86. Great for him

It’s not the reality for many people.

I’m gen x. Had to delay school because of money and then worked my way through undergrad - full time- and still had loans.

By the time I could go to professional school, all my classmates were millennials. The cost was unbelievable. We were told and it was written into our loans that if we stayed in public service, the loans would be forgiven.

I know of no one yet who has had their loans forgiven. Not one person. In over 20 years of higher ed since I graduated from high school.

[Demsrule86]

94. I went to a reasonable state college and paid my own tuition. I had a full ride for my Masters

as I worked really hard...I also applied for every scholarship available...even small ones which added up. Any promise of forgiveness should be kept but I am not for free college. We can make this better for far less money, and I don't want to pay for the wealthy.

[MichMan]

164. Did you research the salaries in Graphic Arts before choosing it?

[Mariana]

25. The fact that it usually can't be discharged in bankruptcy.

If nothing else changes, that should.

[Demsrule86]

36. I agree completely and that should be our first step.

And then...we need to really work it because this is a complicated issue as any with kids could tell you.

[Tarc]

28. "but never indicate what they think an appropriate amount would be"

Put me down for "none", thanks.

[Recursion]

43. Why?

Why is education a bad investment? The results say it's far and away the best kind I'd debt to take on.

[highplainsdem]

31. K&R

[rickyhall]

34. I'm 64 years old, retired & living on Social Security.

I've been paying on student loans for about 38 years and they're still taking my tax refunds and a chunk of my SS check to pay on interest on a principal long since paid. What can I do about? I'm hoping we get a real president & senate who will cut me loose.

[pnwmom]

69. And there are lots of people like you. The OP is wrong. n/t

[Demsrule86]

35. I was informed I should leave the party as I am not a 'real' Democrat if I don't support the

Warren debt relief plan...well I don't. My daughter's girlfriend who works at Starbucks pay almost nothing so there is help available...and Warren's plan which has no chance of passing Congress will hurt our electoral chances. Put it into bankruptcy again so those who truly can't pay walk away clean.

[pnwmom]

45. That's NOT TRUE. Only 39% of Federal student loans qualify for debt forgivenesss.

Not only that, about 8% of loans for college are non-federal loans.

You were lucky.

You made all your claims without a link. Here's one.

https://www.credit.com/loans/student-loans/student-articles/can-you-really-get-your-student-loans-forgiven/

Based on the data currently available from the U.S. Department of Education, most student loans aren’t in a position to be forgiven: Only $505.6 billion, or 39%, of the roughly $1.3 trillion federal student loan portfolio (which includes loans not yet in repayment) is made up of loans that meet at least one requirement for the most common loan forgiveness programs. Even so, not all the borrowers who hold that debt will qualify for forgiveness. But if you meet a specific mix of criteria, you can apply for it.

SNIP

For the most part, loan forgiveness is limited to the federal student loan world, which makes up about 92% of outstanding student loan debt in the United States, according to data from the Federal Reserve and the Education Department. (If you have private student loans, you can skip to later in this article where we talk about bankruptcy and disability discharge, because the rest of this doesn’t apply to you.)

So, what are the legitimate student loan forgiveness options offered by the government? There are several. We’ll start with the most widely available.

[Kurt V.]

54. thank you for providing this link. 👍

[Recursion]

58. As I said, the richest third of earners don't get that relief

Which is why en masse student loan forgiveness is yet another giveaway to the richest Americans.

[pnwmom]

60. 61% of Federal loans don't qualify for forgiveness, and it's not based on being "rich." nt

[Recursion]

64. Read your link. 61% don't qualify for income-based repayment plans. Because they make too much

61% of student loans are held by people making $55K or more (and just to clarify, that's 61% of loan dollars, not 61% of borrowers). That's what disqualifies you from income-based repayment. (Also, the $55K line goes up with household size.)

[pnwmom]

68. You said a third, not 61%.And making 55K doesn't make you rich. The cities with the highest salaries

also tend to have the highest housing costs.

[Recursion]

78. A third of Americans make more than $55K

I think you're confusing "61% of loaned dollars" with "61% of borrowers"

[pnwmom]

89. A person making 32K a year isn't "rich" because they live with another $32K earner.

But their household income would disqualify them for loan forgiveness, if their loans were qualified in the first place.

[Recursion]

92. There is no "qualification" other than income

I don't know why you keep harping on that, as if there's some other secret hurdle you have to clear.

If they're filing jointly, for a household of 2, then yes, they wouldn't qualify for IBR, which I imagine has to do with why a lot of young people don't file jointly.

[pnwmom]

95. I posted two links, including one from the government, showing the basis for what I'm saying.

You just keep posting your opinion.

[Recursion]

97. But you failed to post any example of a qualification other than income

In fact, you just made that up

[pnwmom]

100. I posted this whole page from a government website.

Nowhere does it say that all loans are eligible. If they are, why doesn't it clearly say so?

https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/forgiveness-cancellation

Student Loan Forgiveness

In certain situations, you can have your federal student loans forgiven, canceled, or discharged. Learn more about the types of forgiveness and whether you qualify due to your job or other circumstances.

[pnwmom]

52. For people who want real information, here is a government website

that you can check to see if your type of student loan or loans is eligible.

https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/forgiveness-cancellation

[Throck]

63. College Debt Is a Two Part Problem

Part of the problem is the high cost of higher education in the first place. College/universities are as bad as big-pharma.

Basketball/football coach making $300K. Colleges/universities are also overly rich in layers of bureaucratic administration. My saving grace was I went to a 2 year public community college before I finished up my degree at a private college.

[eilen]

161. You made a better decision based

upon your circumstance and available funds. I did the same. I went to community college and paid off my loans. I also went to a trade school for legal assistant work soon after that. Later, I took classes, 1 by 1, paying as I went and then got into nursing school. I applied for the Pell Grant and took loans to go through 2 years of nursing school. After that I paid every month for 10 years (I was 34 when I graduated Nursing school). I worked my ass off doing overtime shifts (as did my husband) to put together a down-payment for our house through the summer after I graduated. My base pay as a newly graduate licensed nurse back in 1998 was $8.50/hr. I made enough in differentials (shift, meds, charge) to get it to $12.50/hr when I worked. My benefit time (sick/holiday/vacation) was all figured at the $8.50/hr rate. My nursing school was a private hospital school and was not cheap (not a state school). The smarter thing to do was to go to the community college nursing program but I was not willing to stay on a wait list longer than a year. In the end it was a good decision.

My son-- I had saved enough to pay state school/community college for him. The state tuition had increased significantly since I went to school. After he graduated with his associates, he joined the Navy and served for 4 years. He got a lot out of that experience. He traveled and saw much of the world, he learned leadership skills, he learned team building skills as well and of course, many friendships.

After his contract was completed, he returned home and we are providing him room and board while he completes his undergraduate degree which is underwritten by the GI Bill. Next Fall, he will probably apply for his first student loan for graduate school. He has about 5 years left to get his doctorate and will have to find a financially renumerative position in order to pay those loans. Hopefully he will have opportunities to decrease that in fellowship positions or perhaps a service grant in kind (where a facility offers him an educational grant in exchange for his service after graduation--this occurs often in areas that have a shortage in health practitioners and a high need-- I don't know if mental health is an area they are offered in). However, I am confident that he will find abundant opportunity given the preponderance of anxiety disorders, depression, PTSD, drug and other addiction in this country.

As of now, he has no debt, just savings from his time in the military.

I also have a niece that took student loans even though she had a Hope scholarship and used it for travel. She graduated with a degree in Theater and Broadcasting. Now she complains she has too much debt to support herself and her child and lives with/off her mother. She has student debt, credit card debt and a car note. She also has a brother who does make a decent income, saves but spends on travel and other generous gifts, restaurant meals and now an extravagant wedding while paying on his $30K student debt for his degree in law enforcement. I don't wish my tax dollars to erase either one of those balances. It is my opinion they need to learn some basic rules of life, credit and budgeting. Neither of them are engaged in jobs relevant to their college majors. They have two other cousins (my brother's kids) who did not attend college, do not have student debt but both work extremely long hours to support their families and live independently, often robbing Peter to pay Paul and they should not have to underwrite their cousin's student loans and dumb decisions (nor should my son).

So, I think that the forgiveness of all student debt is a very lazy and expensive strategy. I think there are many options, tools and incentives for repayment as well as expanding the opportunities for future students without mandating "free college." There should be options including inexpensive options and a large part of the issue is the certification creep on the job market. Signing a contract is a meaningful act. Integrity of your word is important. However there needs to be allowances made in regard to predatory loans and the compounding interest rates. So it is a more nuanced issue.

[MineralMan]

79. Any Candidate Who Promises to Forgive Student Loan Debt Is Lying.

It's just a campaign promise that can't be kept. Congress will not pass such a thing, even if Democrats have majorities in both houses.

There isn't a stray $1 Trillion to use to forgive that debt, and private lenders aren't going to just forgive such debt.

[dlk]

85. The extraordinarily high levels of student debt are an enormous drag on the economy

[Recursion]

88. How so?

The majority of the debt is held by the richest third of earners, and full repayment is only required of the richest third of earners. It sounds to me like student debt is acting as a brake on inequality, which I thought was a good thing.

[pnwmom]

91. You keep making claims with no data. But it turns out that you think a pair of 32K earners,

living in a household, are "rich." They aren't.

[Recursion]

93. They're in the upper half of the income distribution

They do qualify with one kid, incidentally. But, yes: in general once you're in the richer half of the country I stop worrying very much about you. You've made it. Congratulations. Though in this couple's case they can still file separately and get IBR, as many do.

[MerryBlooms]

96. https://www.yang2020.com/policies/student-loan-debt/

Default rates have crept up steadily to 11.2%, and if you include delinquency rates it’s as high as 25%. This is limiting the growth of our economy and also crippling the advancement of millions of young people in their careers and in starting families. We need to create a clear path out of this crippling debt.

[Gore1FL]

103. Your argument isn't sane.

There is no reason that kids today deserve less than my siblings and I had in the 70s and 80s. And there is no reason to demagogue people in their 20s saddled with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt as "the rich." They need that money to buy houses, appliances, clothes, cars, and furniture. Giving that money to billionaires, instead, has proven to be a bad idea in the last 35 years; this generation is doing less well than their parents. We need to go back to what worked before Reagan fucked it all up.

[dlk]

113. Instead of starting businesses, purchasing homes, cars, etc, Americans are paying their student debt

[MerryBlooms]

90. Yang 2020: Reduce Student Loan Burden

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/student-loan-debt/

Student debt levels have exploded relative to other forms of debt over the past decade in particular. Educational loan totals recently surpassed $1.4 trillion in the U.S., up from $550 billion in 2011 and only $90 billion in 1999. The average level of indebtedness upon graduation is up to $37,172 and there are 44 million student borrowers.

Default rates have crept up steadily to 11.2%, and if you include delinquency rates it’s as high as 25%. This is limiting the growth of our economy and also crippling the advancement of millions of young people in their careers and in starting families. We need to create a clear path out of this crippling debt.

As President, I will...

Immediately reduce the student loan payments for millions of Americans by ensuring that the American government does not profit one cent from its educational loan servicing and that students get the same interest rates as the wealthiest bank. Any profit that the government does realize will go into reducing rates the following year until profit is zero.

Explore a blanket partial reduction in the principal of school loans, especially for recent graduates with the largest debt levels—the “Bailout for the People”—and forgiveness for debt beyond a certain period after graduation.

Propose the 10×10 Student Loan Emancipation Act, a plan by which the federal government would buy student loan debt (negotiated rate with the private lenders) and allow students to opt into a plan to repay it through pledging 10% of their salary per year for ten years, after which the balance would be forgiven.

Ask schools to forgive in part or in whole the debts of those who do not graduate.
Initiate a program that allows graduates to pay a percent of income instead of a fixed amount.
Establish a commission that will explore debt forgiveness or reduction for students who sought degrees under false pretenses.

Change bankruptcy laws to make it easier to discharge educational debt.
Expand a program that forgives the debt of graduates who work in rural areas or with underprivileged populations.

Close schools with high loan default rates and consistently low employment placement success.
Police and prosecute all marketing representations of schools that might induce enrollment under false pretenses.

Allow student loan debt to be discharged through bankruptcy, thus forcing lenders to work with students in good faith to find workable repayment plans.

Candidate Yang understands and has a plan.

[Recursion]

99. Yup, and it's a much better plan than "forgive all student loans" (nt)

[squirecam]

108. Wait a minute

Why are we going to forgive loans for one who doesn’t graduate....

So student X attends an out of state school. Goes to sorority parties and games, but moderately attends class. Stops going after 5 years with no major and no degree.

Is this what the taxpayer should pay for?

Because America won’t.

[nbsmom]

129. Interesting fact: The failure of the student to matriculate can sometimes be due to illness or death

So you're saying in those situations, that the parents better hope that they have enough life insurance to cover their student's indebtedness? Because death doesn't discharge college student loan indebtedness...

[Act_of_Reparation]

98. If people are spending their money on student loans...

...they are not spending their money on the economy.

[emmaverybo]

101. College educated millennials on the average make over 100 thousand a year. Many in the tech

sector make hundreds of thousands per year. Relief should not be across the boards, but targeted to those most in need of it. There are many ways to alleviate this type of debt without a huge giveaway program to all.

[Me.]

102. It Becomes An Ever Greater Debtor Society

and eventually will take over, a situation we will not be able to get out of

[Gore1FL]

109. I wonder how many A. Einsteins, I. Newtons, W. Shakespeares, M.L. Kings were there...

that died with a menial job because they lacked the money to educate and advance themselves? How much did their lack of opportunity cost us? Is there a price we can put on their inability to participate?

I submit it's worth the cost to make sure such things never happen again.

[kcr]

112. Where did you get your seriously inaccurate info on loan debt from? n/t

[Doremus]

117. If you don't see anything wrong with putting most decent jobs out of reach without an education

and then having the cost of that education be many times more than the salaries one can earn, then I guess we aren't ever going to agree.

I'm a boomer btw. My 2 older brothers attended a state univ at the same time. My parents, who were barely middle class, were able to pay their tuition, room, board and books from my father's salary. They had no nest eggs to pull from and did have a mortgage to pay.

Things have gotten a little out of control, don't you think? Instead of blaming the victims, let's start calling out the real culprits: Wall St financiers who screw families in every way possible.

I understand that Yang doesn't have a tuition plan. As his supporter, you really don't need to try to attack others for the lack of same.

[Recursion]

120. So tell businesses to stop requiring degrees

That's the fundamental problem: college is used as a class signal.

[Gore1FL]

123. I really want people with engineering degrees designing planes and cars.

I am pretty keen on medical professionals having degrees, too.

Classism is when we deny people the opportunity to achieve by denying them affordable education. Putting untrained people into jobs is a recipe for disaster, not a cost-cutting measure.

[Recursion]

139. Me too, but I was talking about how just about any office job requires a college degree

which is classist bullshit.

[JonLP24]

150. Conservatives are why we pay too much for education in this country

If you watch the whole thing and don't see any problems with our system I can't help you.

[MichMan]

159. The student loan system has contributed to the high costs

If you ran a college and determined that regardless of how much you raised tuition, that students would just continue to borrow more to cover it, why wouldn't it keep increasing?

Only when enrollment starts to decline will you ever see costs go down

[MichMan]

163. I have an acquaintance with large loan debts who changed majors multiple times

Was close to graduating in Nursing and decided after 3 plus years, didnt like it. Changed to Theatre for a couple years because it was "fun".

After starting back up, decided to try something business related and eventually graduated.

This person is now demanding loan forgiveness because it just isn't "fair" they owe so much

[Gore1FL]

168. It isn't fair.

The burden of funding education shifted from tax dollars to the students at a time when pensions were being drained, prices were going up, and wages were remaining flat. Bank account interest rates cratered. Loan rates went up. Thank you Ronald Reagan and the GOP.

The very richest made and hoarded a lot of tax-free cash.

I submit kids are a better investment than a billionaire's account in an off-shore tax-have. I submit billionaires are a better source for this economic investment than kids.

[BlueWI]

182. Is this still a Democratic forum?

Where was all this hand wringing when Obama proposed universal community college? Or when Sanders was her primary opponent, Hillary Clinton suddenly breaks out a college access plan. No tempest in a teapot then.

We're sliding backwards as a country at providing the means for sustained productivity. It's like pulling teeth to get even a basic infrastructure bill to fix bridges or rural internet, or to get a 21st century transportation or energy grid. We still don't have universal health care with the ACA tied up in court till who knows when. At what point does our party boldly support public investment for the future?

College is unaffordable for too many people - the cost is a disincentive for a lot of potential talent. We're already looking at an exodus from the field of teaching because the pay vs. educational expenses is out of balance. We struggle to produced skilled employees in a range of professions. Forget graduating engineers - we don't even have enough teachers for basic high school science.

None of the naysayers on this thread seem to be aware of the regressive nature of college costs - the high percentage of family income required for college attendance for the lowest 40% of income scales. This kind of data is easy to look up.

DU used to be a progressive community. The thread suggests otherwise. There's a heck of a lot of cluelessness on this issue. Sure,. increasing college access will cost. What's the cost of doing nothing???

And you wonder why younger people don't vote in higher numbers? Sounds like policies that predominantly benefit younger people are just pandering, while policies that predominantly benefit older people and retirees are just good government.

This OP is a short sighted fail, and hopefully it's a minority perspective among Democrats.

[Recursion]

183. I'm for free tuition

See, this is what bugs me. I'm for free tuition. Always have been. I'm against giving a trillion dollars mostly to the upper end of the income scale, but people have decided that you have to be for that to be in the DU in clique.

I don't want to spend public money to help a bunch of rich lawyers and MBAs. I also don't understand what's fundamentally wrong with a system where the richest third of the country is asked to pay back their student loans completely but everybody else gets an income-based repayment plan that retires the debt after 20 years. I'm all for making the income-based subsidy more generous; maybe cut payments on those plans in half, or by two thirds. That sounds like a great idea. But just paying off the loans of a corporate accountant who makes $250K while doing not a damn thing for an electrician who makes $32K strikes me as very regressive.

[BlueWI]

184. If you think that tuition free universities are a good idea, why not add that to your OP?

That would have more balance as the candidates and voters sort out what should be advocated for as far as college access and financing.

A debt forgiveness approach can and should be tweaked from campaign promises. You can always add a means test or further narrow the number of borrowers that receive benefits under a forgiveness program, including further incentives for practicing in underserved areas, etc.

The nature of the problems connected to college debt is quite obvious, though, IMO. You could start with Betsy DeVos and the shady marketing practices that have caused many borrowers to go in debt for degrees of dubious value. You could go from there to talk about people with aspirations to improve their lives who made difficult financial decisions to attend graduate or undergraduate programs but these decisions did not pay off for any number of reasons, and this is made more complicated by banking industry practices that limit refinance options, etc., especially before the Obama-era reforms in student loan practices. Then, we could go on to consider the critical need for educated professionals in many areas, including professionals in teaching and medicine to serve people of color and people in rural communities - the current system, with its upfront tuition costs that can only be paid by borrowing, does not provide nearly enough incentives to have a pipeline of future teachers, nurses, doctors, etc. Add to this the fact that tuition is so high that it requires many students to work 30-40 hours a week to pay for their education, and that means a loss in the ability to engage fully in campus activities that broaden one's horizons and pay off professionally in the longer term.

To me, that's a boatload of problems in the current system that need to be addressed. Debt forgiveness is no different than a "middle class tax cut" that no politician in the current cycle ever says they're against. Debt forgiveness is a monetary incentive that can provide relief for a certain number of middle class families and "wealthy" families, perhaps, depending on how the means test goes. Think of it as a stimulus package that isn't just handing out a $300 tax cut and calling it good. I like to use the phrase "college access" because the actions taken should, in the end, allow more people to attend college and not stretch their resources so far that there's a disincentive to go into the professions that require extended time in graduate school. The number of corporate accountants and "rich lawyers" making $250K isn't that high a percentage of borrowers, but if that's the concern, a means test could take care of it, and of course, this would come up in a public vetting of a relevant bill in Congress.

It will take heavy lifting to get any of these plans passed, and that's what's disappointing about this thread - categorical denials that there's a problem at all with student loan debt. That point of view makes no sense, economically or politically, IMO.

[Recursion]

185. Because that's really not a Federal question

For that matter, the three Federal universities we have are tuition free (the service academies).

And, yes: I entirely agree about the loan forgiveness/middle class tax cut comparison. I guess I still dream of a party that cares more about the poor than the middle class.