So what I see here is raising taxes for M4A in exchange for no health care premiums

[edhopper]

even if it reduces a family's overall costs is bad. Because we "can never raise taxes"

Sounds like RW talking points to me.

[DrToast]

1. What I see is someone too afraid to talk about her plan

So much for time for big ideas.

[Ninga]

5. Not a difficult concept for me. I totally under

the meaning of total costs. Total budget.

[blm]

27. I don't get the 'gee, I don't get it' crowd.

Overall costs go down when you cut out the high costs of the middle men.

[LarryNM]

14. What I see is an also ran with a nasty disposition, their supporters and

others going way over the top in attacking the front runner.

[Cha]

18. Oh yeah.. who's that? I'm not watching.

[dflprincess]

21. Yup.

And I say that as someone who has had to vote for Amy several times in the past because, centrist as she is, she's still better than anyone the Republicans have run against her.

I'm hoping I won't have to do that next November.

[Doremus]

29. Hear, hear. nt

[DrToast]

45. If she can't handle some tough questions, then she can't handle Trump

If she truly believes in it, then she needs to stop being afraid to talk about her plan.

[LAS14]

77. She's wise enough not to give opponents an out-of-context quote. nt

[DrToast]

78. She's afraid of Republicans is supposed to be comforting?

[Blaukraut]

2. They should just call it Medicare premium instead of Medicare tax n/t

[hedda_foil]

6. Exactly. I'm collided that she hasn't used that.

[Ninga]

3. Spot on. Sen Warren needs to own that exact

total message.

[JCMach1]

30. Her biggest problem tonight was how she framed it

...it cost her the debate

[Blue_true]

4. By us not having a universal healthcare system, people are already paying a

hidden tax due to their health insurance premiums being high.

[blm]

71. Paying for health insurance industry's padded overhead.

[Blue_true]

80. That is a pretty impressive chart. It should be used more in debates.

Where I live (Florida), I don't meet many people that are put out by Medicare. I had a medical procedure done earlier this week, pretty much every patient was on Medicare, there was only a handful who seemed to have private insurance. The entire medical services industry (Doctors, Nurses, hospitals, labs, transit companies, rehabilitation hospitals) seem to rely heavily on Medicare payments for their services. I see ads where there are people that specialize in advising people on Medicare and social security planning.

[blm]

90. Physicians for a National Health Program are ignored by corpmedia.

[herding cats]

7. I think the fear factor of losing your provider plays in massively here.

For an example: My insurance is via the ACA. I have excellent coverage where I live and have relationships with all my care givers I don't want to lose. People in my place, or those who have good employer provided insurance, might be scared. Which is an understandable feeling and is why I say we should go into this in increments. I'm now, and always have been 100% in support of single payer. If we could have gotten that passed as planned with the ACA we'd be so much further along in the fight for a real National healthcare program right now.

Just my thoughts.

[edhopper]

9. If everyone has Medicare

all providers take medicare or don't get paid.

And most providers would like single payer.

[herding cats]

13. Where I am not all providers take Medicare.

It may be a state thing?

[edhopper]

15. They will if everyone has it.

the idea is to do away with for profit health ins.

[herding cats]

40. You sure about that?

Because our system has left a lot of practitioners in rural areas in debt until they're in their latter 50's. Are we going to lose our caregivers to urban areas who can afford to buy extra coverage so they can pay their bills, or are they going to change their livelihood to cover their bills?

[edhopper]

42. rural people will now have medicare

bills get paid.

[herding cats]

46. No, that doesn't answer my question.

Reread it.

[edhopper]

49. keeping the current system just makes this worse

letting a few more people on medicare won't solve this at all.

[herding cats]

53. Still not answering me.

I'm asking honest questions here.

[edhopper]

59. your asking if M4A solves a problem

that the cuurent system is causing.
Not completely, but it can also be addressed.
But asking M4A to solve everything is disengenious.
It solves affordable healthcare for all.

[herding cats]

61. No, that's not what I'm asking at all. I'm asking, time and time again, what me and mines impact is?

I've not gotten a serious answer yet. Lots of talking points but zero red meat so far.

Reread my questions. They're honest and to the point. The answers haven't been.

[edhopper]

74. It would be impossible to answer exactly what you and each of your employees would pay

but with M4A, most would pay less and EVERYONE would get healthcare.

The current system leaves millions without health insurance and is the leading cause of bankruptcy.

Why do you want to keep it?

[wasupaloopa]

28. Not so. They will have a prepay system where those who can afford it

will join a group that pays a retainer.

The thing I see is that M4A supporters think forcing people to do what they din’t Want to do is OK.

That is why it will never work.

[edhopper]

41. our system doesn't work

all the public healthcare systems in the rest of the world do.
And not enough people will be able to afford your prepay system to make it viable.

[dflprincess]

16. People can lose access to the provider if their employer changes insurance companies

and their provider doesn't take that insurance or isn't considered "in network" by the new company.

[herding cats]

20. Sure, and people seek new employment often for this reason

Literally, this is an argument for unionization, Right? Or am I off on that?

[dflprincess]

22. There are many arguments for unionization, this is not one of them

Unions can change health insurance companies too & their members can wind up going bankrupt because the current system of health insurance does not guarantee affordable health care.

This is an argument for Medicare for All. If there's one payor doctors will have to accept it unless they want to limit their practice to people who can pay cash.

[herding cats]

24. Ok, I'm a tiny small business.

Where do I fall in this?

Edit to add, vs. what we currently get under the ACA. Me and mine at least qualify right now, where will we be? Everyone is asking me, so give me an answer, please?

[edhopper]

43. everyone gets medicare

is that so hard?

[herding cats]

54. For how much?

I need numbers and I've offered up the same in this thread. Like I've said, I just need some figures here.

[edhopper]

60. for the vast majority

less than they pay now. And EVERYONE gets healthcare.

If that isn't important to you and you only worry about your taxes, you are in the wrong Party.

[herding cats]

63. Still nothing.

"Vast majority" Who is this?

I'm not wealthy and live hand to mouth, month to month. As do my people I'm here representing. Yeah, I'm worried about losing the healthcare I already have and paying more for less. Again, talk me and mine down?

Have you not heard a word I've said/typed tonight? I'm polite and on topic and being basically tossed talking points or ignored. It's frustrating.

[blm]

65. Physicians for National Health Program, who developed Med for All

Said costs would go down considerably for 95% and it would be rated on ability to pay.

[herding cats]

67. Ok, show me.

I'm literally asking to have something to share with others. Please, show me. I'm looking for proof how this will currently impact those on the ACA. Please, read my posts here. I've sited examples and I'm looking for positive things to share that are real and will resonate.

I need some sort of documented proof to talk others off the ledge. Believe it or not, my heart is in the right place. I'm a vote blue no matter who person. I'm desperately trying here to arm myself to defend this stance in my fold. People just seem to be stuck in their talking points and not budging, which isn't helpful to me.

[blm]

70. Go to experts. Go to Physicians for National Health Program

Site. They developed the program for Med for All.

I have to go to work tomorrow at my job.

[herding cats]

72. Ok, I also have work to do at my job tomorrow.

I'll try and squeeze in the research, but I'm working 12-14 hour days. Which is why I seldom post here anymore.

Thanks though.

[forthemiddle]

82. Unless you can tell us how much it will cost us individually

You can’t possibly assert that we will pay less for our heath care.

There within, lies the problem. Unless Warren, and her supporters have a concrete answer to that question, you will have no way of convincing people that Medicare For All will be cheaper.

Will it be less than my family’s $150.00 a month premium? I do have a deductibe, but I’ve only paid it all once in 20 years, so it’s not really an expense for us. We also maintain a Health Care Savings Account that I can use in those cases.

I know I’m lucky, but I’m not that different from many of my middle class friends.

Unless you give us a number, how do you convince us that M4A will benefit us? We should be your voting demographic. Don’t leave us out!

[edhopper]

83. Yeah, let's keep the current system

where 30,000,000 Americans have no health care and it is the biggest cause of bankruptcy.

[jcgoldie]

8. Read my lips

Its a game.

[edhopper]

10. I may agree with you

if we are thinking about the same game.

[jcgoldie]

11. She has too many ideas and too many solutions

How can we attack that? I know... somebody said Democrats want to raise your taxes... how about that?

[George II]

12. The thing is that no one knows how much their taxes will go up vs. current cost of premiums.

People talk about it, but never any cold hard numbers.

If taxes go up $10,000 to eliminate $8,000 in premiums, that's not good. Not saying that's what might happen, but no one knows for sure what will happen.

[herding cats]

17. This is true, too.

It could literally break me and some others.

The unknown worries people who are just getting by. I'm a small business owner, where do I fit into these plans? I've not seen my demographic addressed.

[MrsCoffee]

75. The current system is literally breaking millions and millions of people in this country.

[edhopper]

19. Why she keeps saying

cost will not go up.

[herding cats]

23. For whom?

Me? I'm not clear on that.

I like her, and will definitely vote for her but I'd like some answers.

[blm]

25. Cutting out the middle men cuts costs

[herding cats]

26. Again, for whom?

Not to mention when? I'm not being nasty here and I will definitely vote for Warren if she gets the nomination, but people like myself need some clue what we might be about to have to face.

I like Warren, I'm in no way trashing her here. We just need some answers before this is in front of the CBO.

[blm]

31. My premiums are around 8000.00 a year.

My premiums and the premiums of millions of other consumers contribute to the liuxury lifestyles of thousands of health insurance industry executives.

The savings are there.

[herding cats]

33. Ok, I'm a tiny small business

We qualify for the ACA currently. What does this mean for me an mine? No snark here, they've been asking and I need an intelligent answer.

[blm]

36. I'm a giant health insurance industry and I am no longer

cashing those billions of dollars in checks from consumers, so where does that money go? I don’t know how to tell you that we already are paying many billions to middle men we don’t need just to seek medical care.

[herding cats]

38. Ok, that doesn't even come close to answering my question. NT

[edhopper]

44. medicare

will cost less than the ACA

[herding cats]

52. Again, answer my question

Explain how, specifically it will cost less and why? I've never once seen this addressed.

For example: The lowest income in my fold pays $135 a month (for two, I'll ask them what their subsidy is tomorrow) with a $10 copayment on non generic prescriptions and a $2000 max out of pocket. Will they be adversely impacted? Note: they're above poverty level and pay taxes yearly already around $2500.

This is in a non-Medicaid expansion state. They're not poverty level, but working, tax paying folks. These are real people. They're covered under Ambetter, for full disclosure.

[Ninga]

34. She was very very clear. She will not sign a bill that results in increasing costs.

We pay $1,100 per month for health ins/drug coverage, not including deductible.
If that went away, and our taxes raise by $600 I’m ok with that. I’ll gladly take the net gain of $500.

[herding cats]

35. Does this mean private insurance or people such as me and mine already discounted by the ACA?

Do you know?

[jberryhill]

66. I find it odd that you own other people

[herding cats]

69. I get that. I'm speaking for family, employees and friends. Several of which crossover.

I'm trying to lead more than a few people to the polls in 2020.

[wasupaloopa]

32. Providers will have to take what we give them. Insurance companies

will go out of business. People will have to give up the coverage they have. People will pay higher taxes.

All those folks will just give up and take it on the chin for M4A.

[Ninga]

37. Here is the deal. If the zillionaires can be taxed on their wealth, then those who have employer

furnished health care, will change to M4A so that the hundreds of thousands who do not have have health care, or have serious costly illness, are given a hand up.

[RandySF]

39. I did the math on Gilibrand's while she was running

and I would have paid more in new taxes than I do for my current premium.

[edhopper]

47. and did you add out of pocket

because right now my out of pocket is another few thousand a year.

[RandySF]

50. I haven't paid a deductible throughout my treatment for anxiety.

That included an ER visit, therapy, group therapy and medication.

[herding cats]

55. Look above.

I gave a real life example of people I know on the ACA.

I'd like to hear how this compares in coverage, provider ability and cost. I need some numbers.

[Midnightwalk]

48. Very predictable RW talking points

Taxes and “they are taking away your work insurance or doctors”.

We need to be able to sell our ideas to win the general elections. The presidency and the senate. Otherwise we lose what we have and still don’t get medicare for all.

You don’t have to convince me. I think single payer saves money. I spent the last two days working through the bureaucracy to get a regularly scheduled treatment and l have good insurance.

“yes you lose your work insurance and pay more taxes but you’ll actually save money” might be true but is a hard sell.

There are other ways to improve healthcare that are easier to sell to voters. We have to win before we get anything.

[edhopper]

51. unless we can provide it to everyone

it is a failure.

[Midnightwalk]

62. Lose the election and we fail sooner and worse

I agree we’re not done until everyone is guaranteed healthcare. I’d even agree on saying we would still be failing in our obligations as a society and morally.

I just like progress more than stagnation And l absolutely hate going backwards which is what we have been doing and are still doing.

[gulliver]

56. Warren is making it seem worse by not simply stating it the way you are in the OP.

She seems to feel she has to be vague and not talk about how we get to the M4A goal. Why? Because it requires some unspecified tax increase on...well on who? Everyone will assume it could be them if Warren doesn't say who it will be.

Then what about folks who are happy with their insurance and think they have it better than others? Are they going to be forced to (possibly) "trade down" to M4A? They'll be forced to take worse insurance? Their family's health is on the line, and Warren and Sanders, by not being specific, are raising the suspicion that some people will have worse health insurance with M4A than they have now.

That suspicion is unavoidable with the approach Warren and Sanders are proposing. People are being told they will be given no choice. That's crazy stupid. No matter how good what you "promise" people may be, they won't want to trust you and let you force it on them. You're asking for a huge amount of trust, and there is no way you will get it.

It's much, much easier and more effective to universally subsidize everyone to pick their own insurance and to offer a public option. Call the public option Medicare for All if you want. If it ends up being better or the same as what people have now, they'll walk through the door we open. If it ends up being worse, they won't walk through it but they'll still have universal coverage.

[edhopper]

57. I think subsidizing the for profit

insurance copanies is a terrible idea.

People like their health care, not their insurance company. They are not the same thing.
Other countries allow extra insurance for those that want it. AFTER they give everyone health care.

[gulliver]

58. You could choose not to subsidize the for profit companies.

Others would choose differently if it meant better health care. It's basically what you are saying. You would get a means tested base subsidy of, say, a Medicare Advantage program. Drugs would also be subsidized. Dentistry (very important) too. All of this would be available either as a public option you could buy from the government or from any commercial outfit that wanted to compete. Over time, the market would decide, but, for once, competition would be working for consumers instead of against them.

[The Wizard]

64. Eliminating military waste

would more than pay for Universal single payer healthcare, and 4 years of college for those willing and qualified. Not everyone is able to or wants to work four years without pay.
A formal education rewires the brain to process critical thinking.
If we are to compete on the World stage More will be needed with a formal education, and single payer healthcare.
Squandering resources on world domination through the military is a recipe for failure. Any nation that tried to impose itself on the world through naked military dominance wind up in History's dust bin.
Trump won because a significant number of the working class were losing jobs, homes and families because of a failed system. Trump offered pie in the sky and enough people felt throwing a monkey wrench in the fan would reorganize a failed system. All Trump has produced is failure and ruined lives and businesses.

[emmaverybo]

68. Warren apparently think it's bad because she won't say that yes, taxes will go up but most will

get more back in their pocket. All she as to say, not turn the question into an RW talking point she refuses to respond to.

Trust the voters with the truth. We know taxes will go up with any single payer plan. She is on CNN now and still will not say it.

She just keeps repeating the medical insurance horror stories.

[ecstatic]

73. Some of our employers pay 100% of our premiums.

So there's that...

[blm]

76. That they write off their taxes as a business expense. Who makes up

The difference.....eventually?

[Ninga]

79. Yes.spot on. Nt

[Buzz cook]

81. Our current system costs 10k per citizen

That's rounded down. Our population is 330 million. that's rounded up.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-average-wealthy-countries-spend-half-much-per-person-health-u-s-spends

https://www.census.gov/popclock/

So the ten year cost of our current system is? 10k X 330m X 10. I invite you to do the arithmetic. (does not include inflation, duh)

During the debate Joe Biden said M4A would cost 30 trillion over ten years. I think you'll notice that number is lower than the one above.

Lets look at industry profits under the current system.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/05/top-health-insurers-profit-surge-29-percent-to-6-billion-dollars.html
"

Combined, the nation’s top six health insurers reported $6 billion in adjusted profits for the second quarter.

"

So that's the top six for one quarter of 2017. If we math that its 6 billion X 4 X 10 (doesn't include inflation) Or 240 billion.
Just so you know growth in the health insurance industry increases at a rate greater than inflation.

So what does a respected organization say about M4A?
https://www.ctj.org/pdf/sandershealthplanfull.pdf

Only the top 5 % see a net decrease in income. There is a net increase in individual income of $694

This is from 2016 btw.

[aidbo]

84. Not just that, it's an argument based on right wing framing.

[edhopper]

85. Absolutely!!

[edhopper]

87. So you want to keep

the most expensive and least efficient health care in the World.
Noted.

[edhopper]

89. Plan B

was the ACA.