Bernie Talks Like a Jewish Man from Brooklyn and You Need to Get Over It

[Uncle Joe]

(snip)

“Right now we have a dysfunctional healthcare system [with] 500,000 Americans every year going bankrupt,” he said, his voice growing louder with each word. Sanders spoke emphatically of the injustice in forcing patients to face both their health issues and outrageous hospital bills.

(snip)

As the pundits weighed in, some Jewish Americans pointed out that the way Sanders speaks is just how a lot of Jewish people, particularly those from Brooklyn, speak. Some said that perceiving his speech patterns as inherently angry or abrasive was ignorant at best and anti-Semitic at worst. Following the debate, many American Jews voiced their disappointment over critiques against Sanders’s speech patterns:

While linguist and professor of contemporary Jewish Studies at Hebrew Union College Sarah Bunin Benor said she doesn’t believe these critiques of Sanders’s speech are inherently anti-Semitic, she does agree that they reveal an unfamiliarity with the way Jews, particularly Jewish New Yorkers, speak. “The idea that arguing is part of how we as Jews speak, and the idea that Jews talk a lot with their hands has been the popular understanding of Jewish language for many decades,” she said.

For example, what some may see as Sanders interrupting others, Benor describes as “overlapping” or “cooperative overlapping” in Jewish speech. Overlapping is not only not considered rude, but is often used as a way to “display solidarity” and “protect intimacy” amongst speakers, according to a 1984 study called Jewish Argument as Sociability. According to a 2008 survey Benor conducted, 47 percent of Jews report having been told their style of speech was too aggressive, compared to 36 percent of non-Jews.

(snip)


https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/a35w3z/bernie-sanders-angry-accent-jewish-brooklyn

[still_one]

1. What bullshit. Is the article saying Jews interrupt and rude?

[Uncle Joe]

2. Try rereading the article slower.

[Jopin Klobe]

57. HA! ...

... and ... HA! ...

... most apropos ...

[Hortensis]

104. Imo, YOU need to get over the reality that most people prefer other candidates

and that they do for valid, honorable reasons.

I find the posting of this article here, with its "YOU" and its accusations of antisemitism and "NY" dogwhistles, offensive, and my Jewish husband does also.

[Uncle Joe]

107. Perhaps you can find a single post to support your first sentence?

I have over 46,000 here, it shouldn't be difficult.

[Hortensis]

108. Perhaps you can take a vacation. It's summertime,

and most people aren't even paying attention.

[Uncle Joe]

109. I have seen a fair amount of the world.

Peace to you Hortensis.

[Hortensis]

110. Peace to you, Unc.

[George II]

20. Sad the article had to zero in on the Jewish aspect, and incorrectly too.

[NurseJackie]

45. This is a symptom of a campaign that's in trouble...

... supporters (and the campaign itself) are trying to make excuses and address all the imagined problems, slights, conspiracies, insults... and put the blame anywhere except where it actually belongs. The campaign's expectations were too high and they simply don't seem to be prepared to accept (or to make meaningful adjustments in response to) the reality of where they find themselves now. As far as the campaign goes, I see poor planning, bad analysis and evaluations, and flawed responses. And based on the lackluster and steadily declining poll numbers, I believe that's what the rest of the country is seeing too.

[BannonsLiver]

100. Excellent points Jackie

I must admit I enjoy the flailing about. The desperate search for answers as to why it’s just not working this time. This particular theory in the OP is pure comedy.

[Gothmog]

117. As a Jew, I was disappointed in this article

It was sad.

[George II]

118. As an old man from Brooklyn with a strong Jewish heritage I was disappointed, too.

[lapucelle]

53. It's a Vice writer's oversimplification of a sociolinguistic theory

Vice's resident expert fails to take into account the role of gender in discourse patterns, an issue that is at the heart of much of Dr. Tannen's work.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5523ffe4e4b012b2c4ebd8fc/t/56ddaf3fab48defc357acdf0/1457368895228/Tannen-NewYorkJewishConversationalStyle.pdf

[OilemFirchen]

3. Not really.

Most Jewish men from Brooklyn have a sense of humor.

[Uncle Joe]

5. So does Bernie.

But he is exceptionally serious when it comes to policies which affect the American People.

[OilemFirchen]

7. No he doesn't.

Now you're just fucking with us.

[Uncle Joe]

8. Yes he does

and no I'm not.

[BeyondGeography]

10. Yes he does

That was fucking funny.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

70. .

?itemid=4950611

[elleng]

4. Thanks, my home 'boy,' really, and have thought of this 'problem' for a long time.

(THO still undecided.)

[Uncle Joe]

6. ...

[pangaia]

9. i grew up in north jersey, just across the bridge and spent

much time in manhattan, brooklyn queens bronx (yankee stadium, ah hem) was on the presbyterian team in the local 'church basketball league.. the jewish community center, and the catholic church teams always whipped our ass.



yeah bernie sounds like a brooklyn guy but to me he also sound angry all the time. I strongly supported him in 2016, for what that is worth., but, as right or wrong as he may be, i just don't like listening to the constant... whatever it is

doesn't mena he would or wouldn't be a good president...

[Uncle Joe]

13. I have always viewed Bernie as having righteous anger,

to me that's a major distinction than just being angry.

Link to tweet

I believe the times call for righteous anger and am firmly of the belief that Bernie would be a great President.

[pangaia]

19. yes yes, of course you are right...i agree 100%....

i just get tired of the same timbre all the time.
that's just me....

i have always drummed to a different groove than those around me....

[Uncle Joe]

22. ...

Peace to you pangaia.

[pangaia]

25. you to JOE......

[lunasun]

127. +He has the same problem many concerned minority run into when pointing out injustice and

inequality
“Why do they seem soooo angry?”
If you are not saying something nice or as a joke and pointing out serious uncomfortable facts , well then you seem too much of a downer
All because you brought uncomfortable facts in to their daisy sunshine world they wanted to ignore
He asked the right question -“why doesn’t that anger you?”

[stonecutter357]

11. We just don't know Sanders !

[George II]

12. Being Jewish has nothing to do with it. Many non-Jewish men from Brooklyn/NYC sound like he does....

....it's a BROOKLYN/NYC accent, not a Jewish Brooklyn accent. Plus, we Brooklynites, Jewish or not, don't interrupt people indiscriminately
or point. I was raised in Brooklyn and was taught by my parents that pointing is very rude.

My mother and father sounded a lot like him (accent-wise, they were always happy) and my older brother sounds like him. I consciously got rid of my Brooklyn/NYC accent in my teens, I hated the way New Yorkers sound, as do many Americans.

Finally, he hasn't lived in Brooklyn for about fifty years, surprised he hasn't lost that accent yet.

[bluewater]

14. "I hated the way New Yorkers sound, as do many Americans."

"I consciously got rid of my Brooklyn/NYC accent in my teens, I hated the way New Yorkers sound, as do many Americans."

Hate?

Hate how New Yorkers sound?

As do many Americans?

Personally, I love regional accents and I don't hate how any of my fellow Americans sound when they speak.

I thank my parents for raising me and my siblings to appreciate and embrace cultural diversity, including regional speech patterns.

[Uncle Joe]

15. I feel the same way bluewater.

I believe our cultural diversity adds to our power.

I also believe it simply makes life more exciting.

[bluewater]

17. +1000

[Go Vols]

50. +1

[George II]

16. You're entitled to your opinion.

[bluewater]

24. And you are free to hate the way New Yorkers sound. It reflects on you though, not them.

"I consciously got rid of my Brooklyn/NYC accent in my teens, I hated the way New Yorkers sound, as do many Americans."

[George II]

30. Not "them", "us" - did you miss the fact that I grew up in Brooklyn/NYC (specifically Queens)?

[bluewater]

35. "I consciously got rid of my Brooklyn/NYC accent in my teens, I hated the way New Yorkers sound.."

I think I quoted that several times.

You hated the way New Yorkers sound and consciously "got rid" of your own Brooklyn/NYC accent.

You not only stated that you hated how New Yorkers sound but then added "as do many Americans".

Why did you add that? I do not think that is true for any reasonable definition of "many Americans". Americans embrace the richness of our shared national cultural tapestry.

[George II]

44. Experience.

[melman]

38. "It reflects on you though"

It does indeed. I'd say it's revealing but it doesn't really reveal anything I didn't already know.

[George II]

47. What did you "already know"?

[lapucelle]

73. You already knew that he has the instincts of a natural born sociolinguist?

Have you met my friend Professor Labov?

https://oxfordre.com/linguistics/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199384655.001.0001/acrefore-9780199384655ne-364#acrefore-9780199384655-e-364-div1-6

https://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/sociolinguistics/labov/

https://www.ukessays.com/essays/linguistics/study-york-accent-2999.php

https://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/magazine/the-big-city-can-we-talk.html

[melman]

75. No

and yes.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

126. And how!

[lapucelle]

67. It reflects what William Labov systematically studied and confirmed through research.

My dissertation was a survey of the class differences in the dialect of New York City, where I introduced a batch of new techniques of interviewing, quantitative techniques for measuring change, and field experiments to pin down just which sounds triggered the linguistic self-hatred of New Yorkers. Since then, these techniques have been used to study several hundred other cities throughout the world. We’ve introduced the use of acoustic phonetics into the study of everyday language, and linguistics has begun to make the slow move from a qualitative to a quantitative science. The variation across individuals, and across time, that seemed so chaotic and so puzzling, was beginning to take on a systematic shape that could be described mathematically.

snip==================================================================

Over the many years, there have been a myriad of varying responses to the New York accent. These reactions have been personal for New Yorkers, or even present in society via the portrayal of the accent in media (movies, television, etc.). In a study done on language and social strata, Labov wrote “The term ‘linguistic self-hatred’ is not too extreme to apply.” People from New York and New Jersey described their own speech as “distorted,” “sloppy” and “horrible.” (Virginia, 2010) Some New Yorkers even go so far as to take classes to lose or “unlearn” their accents. Labov also found (in separate interviews) that only one third of New Yorkers liked their accent and most were under the impression that the other Americans dislike the accent in general.

https://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/sociolinguistics/labov/
https://www.ukessays.com/essays/linguistics/study-york-accent-2999.php
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/01/22/magazine/the-big-city-can-we-talk.html

[NurseJackie]

92. Great information... thank you.

Personally, I'm glad that BS has such a thick NY accent. I hope he NEVER changes. With regard to the actual reason WHY I feel that way, well... I'll just keep that to myself. (People who know me well will understand how I feel, and that's all that matters.)

[lapucelle]

96. I can't believe that I'm arguing sociolinguistic theory and dscourse studies

with so many experts.

Who knew?

[NurseJackie]

97. It's all rather amusing, actually.

I'm sure it's frustrating for you and any one else who ACTUALLY knows what they're talking about. But I do get some mild satisfaction in having confirmed and reinforced my belief that the BS campaign is struggling, that his supporters know it, and are (apparently) willing to engage in the most absurd manner of dismissive insults and lame accusations of antisemitism in an effort to explain away the fact that the BS poll numbers continue to stall or decline and that BS is having trouble in developing a foothold or gaining traction.

[lapucelle]

65. You're not alone. I was born in Brooklyn and raised in the boroughs, and I don't like my NY accent.

And according to William Labov, we are not alone.

Over the many years, there have been a myriad of varying responses to the New York accent. These reactions have been personal for New Yorkers, or even present in society via the portrayal of the accent in media (movies, television, etc.). In a study done on language and social strata, Labov wrote “The term ‘linguistic self-hatred’ is not too extreme to apply.” People from New York and New Jersey described their own speech as “distorted,” “sloppy” and “horrible.” (Virginia, 2010) Some New Yorkers even go so far as to take classes to lose or “unlearn” their accents.

Labov also found (in separate interviews) that only one third of New Yorkers liked their accent and most were under the impression that the other Americans dislike the accent in general (Tierney, 1995).

I owe my parents a debt of gratitude for raising me in a place where there was so much cultural diversity that we simply learned to respect everybody without reference to differences and for teaching me to be neither sneeringly judgemental nor deliberately obtuse when it comes to other people's point of view.

https://www.ukessays.com/essays/linguistics/study-york-accent-2999.php

https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~wlabov/home.html

[George II]

69. Many of the people around the country that I met (traveled extensively for work for 30 years)...

...to learn that I was from New York City. "Where's that horrible accent?"

[lapucelle]

71. When my daughter was in college on the west coast, she'd call and ask me to say certain words

on speaker phone so everyone could hear my NY accent. I'd hear them laughing!


Sociolinguistics pioneer William Labov's groundbreaking research confirms your instincts about and observations on the NY dialect .

I've referenced his writings often, but mostly regarding his work on establishing AAVE as a nonstandard rule- governed dialect rather than "lazy, bad, or stupid" English. His work has had a major impact on advancing policy that promotes equity in education.

[melman]

28. +1

[lapucelle]

68. How wonderful that you love regional accents and don't hate how any of your fellow Americans sound!

Have you met my friend William? He did ground breaking research that confirmed that

New Yorkers

Hate how New Yorkers sound

and that many New Yorkers think that

Americans hate

The way New Yorkers sound

As well.

https://oxfordre.com/linguistics/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780199384655.001.0001/acrefore-9780199384655-e-364

[bluewater]

79. Victims of bigotry become self hating you say? That's often true, sadly.

Not surprising, but very sad and shows the damage a bigoted and xenophobic society can do to ethnic sub-groups.

As a center of immigration for literally centuries, New York City and its immigrant residents have been the objects of scorn and distain and had developed a negatively skewed self image apparently. So I guess it makes sense that some New Yorkers have a skewed self image.

What is shocking is that Labov claims this self hatred extends to 2/3rds of all New Yorkers?

Labov also found (in separate interviews) that only one third of New Yorkers liked their accent and most were under the impression that the other Americans dislike the accent in general.

Has any other study confirmed that 66% of New Yorkers hate their accents? Honestly, having lived in NYC, the vast majority of people seemed pretty non-self hating and seem oblivious to accents in general. I know people that code-switch between accents based on social interactions, but no one I knew personally "hated how they sound" or felt they had to "get rid" of their original accent. That sounds like an extremely skewed negative self image frankly, and there is no way 66% of New Yorkers hold that degree of self-loathing.

Can I ask what was the size of Labov's study that found 66% of New Yorkers hate their accent?

But yes, it is wonderful that I love regional accents and don't hate how my fellow Americans sound.

And it is sad that xenophobic attitudes directed at immigrant cities like NYC have made some of their residents feel less than their whole selves.

Thank you for pointing out that xenophobia directed at them has given some New Yorkers a negatively skewed self image. Those people need our support to restore their self esteem and validate their sense of self worth. We should all be their allies.

In 2019, no American should feel or be made to feel self-conscious about their regional or ethnic speech patterns.

[lapucelle]

82. Labov never said that "victims of bigotry become self loathing" and neither did I.

You said that.

***************************************************************************************

If you'd like to know more about about Labov's fundamental methodology, you can begin here:

http://www.sfs.uni-tuebingen.de/~Roland/Literature/Labov(08)_quantitative_reasoning_in_linguistics.pdf

*****************************************************************************************

If you'd like to know more about Labov's impact on the reaearch in the field, you can read much of volume 1 of Current Issues in Linguistic Theory's celebration of his life's work (Towards a Social Science of Language: Papers in Honor of William Labov) here:

https://bit.ly/2KlQhRJ

*****************************************************************************************

If you have access to an academic research data base like Jstor, it's not difficult to find academic reviews Dr. Labov's ground breaking dissertation The Social Stratification of English in New York, written in 1966 and updated and revised in 2006. You can read the abstract for free at ERIC or send $5 to CAL for a print copy of the dissertation.

https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED012927

OFFICE OF THE CENTER FOR APPLIED LINGUISTICS,
1717 MASSACHUSETTS AVENUE, N.W.,
WASHINGTON, D.C., 20036

*****************************************************************************************

You can watch some of Dr. Labov's spirited Congressional testimony in the service of advancing equity in education through a better understanding of AAVE (called at the time "Ebonics" ) as a rule-generated variation of non-standard English here:

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4460330/labov-senate-hearing-ebonics-education

*****************************************************************************************

While Professor Labov no longer teaches classes, you can still reach him at his office if you would like to interrogate him personally on his methodology and his shocking claims.

https://www.ling.upenn.edu/people/labov


I'm sure he'd love to hear about your thoughts concerning New Yorkers as a marginalized ethic sub-group subject to self-loathing due to xenophobia. Don't forget to send him your data first so he can be more fully grounded in your theory!

[bluewater]

83. Skewed self image of victioms of bigotry is well documented, some NYers might also be victims.

This would explain the result's Labov claims in regards to 66% of New Yorkers hating their accent.

As a center of immigration for literally centuries, New York City and its immigrant residents have been the objects of scorn and distain and had developed a negatively skewed self image apparently. So I guess it makes sense that some New Yorkers have a skewed self image and have come to be self-loathing to the point of hating their accents.

But still, that 66% figure seems incredibly high.

So what was the size of Labov's Study? It's a simple Question.

Labov says 66% of New Yorkers hate their accent. That seems quite a remarkable claim.

Again, instead of a plethora of words and links that avoids answering the question, please just tell us the size of that study.

And Skewed self image as a result of bigotry and xenophobia is also a well studied area. Perhaps the most familiar example is the Doll Experiment:

The Clark Doll Experiment (1939) was an experiment done by Dr. Kenneth Clark and his wife Mamie where they asked black children to choose between a black doll and a white doll. The dolls were the same except for their skin color but most thought the white doll was nicer.

In 1954 in Brown v Board of Education the experiment helped to persuade the American Supreme Court that “separate but equal” schools for blacks and whites were anything but equal in practice and therefore against the law. It was the beginning of the end of Jim Crow.
In the experiment Clark showed black children between the ages of six and nine two dolls, one white and one black, and then asked these questions in this order: “Show me the doll that you like best or that you’d like to play with,” “Show me the doll that is the ‘nice’ doll,” “Show me the doll that looks ‘bad’,” “Give me the doll that looks like a white child,” “Give me the doll that looks like a colored child,” “Give me the doll that looks like a Negro child,” “Give me the doll that looks like you.”
“Negro” and “colored” were both common words for blacks before the 1960s.

The last question was the worst since by that point most black children had picked the black doll as the bad one. In 1950 44% said the white doll looked like them! In past tests, however, many children would refuse to pick either doll or just start crying and run away.
In one study Clark gave the test to 300 children in different parts of the country. He found that black children who went to segregated schools, those separated by race, were more likely to pick the white doll as the nice one.
In the test that he did that became part of Brown v Board he asked 16 black children in 1950 in Clarendon County, South Carolina. Of these 63% said the white doll was the nice one, the one they wanted to play with.

Clark also asked children to colour a picture of themselves. Most chose a shade of brown markedly lighter than themselves.
agirllikemeIn 2005 Kiri Davis repeated the experiment in Harlem as part of her short but excellent film, “A Girl Like Me”. She asked 21 children and 71% told her that the white doll was the nice one. Not a huge sample size, true, but it was still shocking to see how easily many chose the white doll.

In 2009 after Obama became president, “Good Morning America” on ABC did the test. They asked 19 black children from Norfolk, Virginia. It is hard to compare their numbers because they allowed “both” and “neither” as an answer. They also asked the last question first, making it far easier to answer: 88% said the black doll looked most like them.
ABC added a question too: “Which doll is pretty?” The boys said both, but 47% of the black girls said the white doll was the pretty one.

https://alitucke.wordpress.com/2014/02/05/the-clark-doll-experiment/

[lapucelle]

85. I am not your research assistant. If you need a sample size to fully evaluate seminal research

that has passed rigorous academic muster for the past 50 years, look through your bookshelves at home for a copy of his dissertation, find it via the data bases at your academic institution, or order a copy.

Let us know your findings!

[bluewater]

86. I do not have to VALIDATE YOUR CLAIMS, that onus is on you

So you can't tell us the size of Labov's Study saying 66% of NYers hate their accent?
Then what were all those links you provided for? A distraction?

When asked to provide some basic information about a Labov study YOU are touting you replied: "I am not your research assistant."

Sorry, but that is not how a discussion works, I do not have to VALIDATE YOUR CLAIMS, that onus is on you.

In any case, thank you for the discussion.

You have convinced me that some New Yorkers, probably due to systemic bigotry and xenophobia directed at them and their city, suffer a degree of self-loathing where they hate their accents. I just can't quite accept at face value Labov's claim that 66% of all New Yorkers hate their accent.

Thanks again for the discussion.

[lapucelle]

90. Sorry, but it is how this works in in sociolinguistic theory.

Dr. Labov has written at length concerning the the usefulness and limitations of quantitative studies in qualitative analysis within the social sciences.

Folks should read Labov's basic papers on methodology before asking questions analogous to, "Who is this Einstein, and why should I "believe" a theory supported by one eclipse alone?"

The internet is so interesting.

The superficial musings of a Vice reporter on the topic of discourse studies brings out out all manner of folk defending their instantly formed theories of sociolinguistics, some going so far as to call into question the work of an esteemed expert who throughout his life has used his position and platform to advance equity in education by helping layman to understand the impact of the stigmatization of non-standard English on local school curriculum policy.

I feel like shaking my head, but instead I'll tip my hat to William Labov, founding father of sociolinguistics. Today is not the first time.

[bluewater]

91. Are you saying you don't have to validate your claims? And neither does Labov?

So you don't have to tell us the size of Labov's study claiming 66% of New Yorkers hate their accent and whether or not it has been independently confirmed ?!?

Got it.

Are you also telling us that Labov does not have to quantitatively support his claim that 66% of New Yorkers HATE their accent?

"Dr. Labov has written at length concerning the the usefulness and limitations of quantitative studies in qualitative analysis within the social sciences."

Okie Dokie...

then why did he make such an incredible QUANTITATIVE CLAIM that 66% of all New Yorkers HATE their accent?


You presented a quantitative claim made by Labov and are now arguing that there are "limitations" to "quantitative studies in qualitative analysis within the social sciences".

Thank you for proving my point.

I think there is not much to say past this point in the discussion.

[lapucelle]

95. Why would anyone assert such a thing about an esteemed scholar without knowing the facts?

Dennis Preston conducted surveys that re-affirmed Labov's findings in the 1990s. He notes:

A quantitative method for calculating linguistic insecurity was first introduced in Labov’s "The social stratification of English in New York City", but refined and extended to gender in Peter Trudgill’s "Sex, covert prestige and linguistic change in the urban British English of Norwich" in Language in Society 1 (1972), pp. 179-95.

I again encourage you to actually read Dr. Labov's work before making unsupported accusatory claims concerning his methodology.

https://bit.ly/2T7hcVE

[lapucelle]

87. Why not write up your research as a helpful addendum to Labov's studies?

Several journals have current calls for papers. I'm sure any number of them would be happy to publish your findings!

https://linguistlist.org/pubs/journals/browse-calls1.cfm

[bluewater]

88. Why not tell us the size of Labov's study claiming 66% of NYers hate their accent?

Has this study been independently confirmed?

In any case, thank you for the discussion.

You have convinced me that some New Yorkers, probably due to systemic bigotry and xenophobia directed at them and their city, suffer a degree of self-loathing where they hate their accents. I just can't quite accept at face value Labov's claim that 66% of all New Yorkers hate their accent.

Thanks again for the discussion.

[BannonsLiver]

99. Aww that is just so sweet

[pangaia]

21. i just LOVE the sound of brooklyn

The L A Dodgers are fake

there IS no such thing...

[George II]

27. My father was heartbroken when they left Brooklyn. Before they moved he took me to a game...

....at Ebbets Field (we were less than two miles from there), one of my favorite memories.

BTW, the Dodgers played the MILWAUKEE Braves and I saw Hank Aaron play that night.

[pangaia]

29. Ebbets field was a national trewasure.

i spent many, many afternoons at the REAL Yankee Stadium--was there one of the days the Mick hit the facade in right field...even swt mantle and DiMaggio play together.

But one memory I will NEVER forget was the one time I went to Ebbets field..in the mid 1950's

You know the rest of the story...

[George II]

48. We went to the REAL Yankee Stadium many times in our teens, can't tell you how many.....

....doubleheaders my brother and I went to. We were living in Queens by that time, the ride home on the subway was almost two hours, but back then (late 50s/early 60s) it was safe to ride home in the dark. The 4th of July doubleheader between the Tigers and Yankees in 1961 is another one that sticks in my mind - there were 76,000 people there that day! Yankees won the first and went into first place, lost the second and dropped back to second.

Great lineups back then - there was one game where five or six players EACH hit two home runs.

[pangaia]

72. amazing you can remember that one particular day....

I grew up in Teaneck so to get to Yankee Stadium it was the Intercitry bus to the GWB.. then A train to.. somewhere.. then switch to the D train to the Grand Concourse...

then GREEN RED and WHITE !!!
A baseball field is perfection..

1961 was the M&M boys year...

"Now batting for the Yankees,...... the center fielder,...... number 7,...... Mickey... Mantle.... number 7."

on another note-----
I can still remember the smell of the mens rooms

[George II]

89. My first game was at Yankee Stadium, when we walked through the tunnel into the field boxes....

....I was stunned with the green of the field. Living in Brooklyn at the time, we didn't have front lawns or grass in the backyard. The only grass we ever saw was on occasional visits to a park, which was more concrete than brown grass anyway.

Bob Sheppard was the greatest, all business and his announcements of the players was exactly the same every single time. He was the only announcer I knew back then, he was there for 59 years!

I don't remember the mens room.

[pangaia]

98. I still get a rush when walking through whatever the entrance is

and having that first view of a baseball field. I only go to minor league games now, Short-season A, double-A and triple A are all nearby... I'm lucky.

The men's rooms smelled similar to the tunnel between the parking lot and Jones Beach...



Did you ever read WAIT UNTIL NEXT YEAR by Doris Kearns Goodwin? A short, spectacular memoir of growing up in Brooklyn as a Dodgers fan..

[George II]

102. I never heard of that book, will have to find it at the library. I did read Roger Kahn's....

...."Boys of Summer".

About ten years ago I got that rush you talk about. I was in California on a business trip and decided to FINALLY get to Dodger Stadium. What a feeling walking into that (now) historic stadium and seeing the Dodgers at home again. I thought of my father through most of the game.

Over the years I was lucky enough to get to some great old stadiums. The REAL Yankee Stadium, Ebbets Field, the Polo Grounds for the first two years of the Mets existence, Wrigley Field, the ORIGINAL Comisky Park, Fenway Park, and four of the six old hockey Arenas, too.

Back in 1991 I was on a trip and landed in San Francisco about 5PM. My first thought was to go to a game, Oakland was in town. I got there for the bottom of the first inning. It turned out to be Nolan Ryan's sixth no-hitter (still have the ticket and photograph of the Rangers carrying him off the field)

I could go on for hours.

[pangaia]

103. "I could go on for hours."

Me too.
maybe we better hand the thread back over....

[George II]

123. Okay, you got me going. Took a few days to get around to it, but here are a couple of pictures....

....of one of the more exciting games I ever saw, Nolan Ryan's no-hitter against Oakand. The poor guy sitting next to me was a season ticket holder but promised his wife he'd be home early. Missed the last two innings! The top photograph is the scoreboard at the end of the game (fuzzy, this was 1990), second was Ryan being carried off the field. Ex-Yankee Willie Randolph (and future manager) hit a foul pop up down the first base line for the final out.

Look at the price of the ticket!!!

[elleng]

43. DAMN RIGHT!

I'm STILL a Brooklyn Dodger!

[murielm99]

36. I know some people from the South

who have worked hard to get rid of their Southern accents. The ones I have met have moved to other parts of the country where people judge them by their accent. They think Southern accents mean that the speaker is a racist or a redneck.

We don't always relate well to people from other parts of the country or the world, do we?

[lapucelle]

49. Interrupting peple

isn't rude, George. It's cooperative overlapping...except when it isn't.

In conversation analysis, the term cooperative overlap refers to a face-to-face interaction in which one speaker talks at the same time as another speaker to demonstrate an interest in the conversation.

In contrast, an interruptive overlap is a competitive strategy in which one of the speakers attempts to dominate the conversation.

Linguistics is a serious field, and Deborah Tannen is a serious researcher and scholar.

Here's what Dr. Tannen has to say about your point, George:

"My impression is that New Yorkers of non-Jewish backgrounds and Jews not from New York use many of the devices I have described and that there are New York Jews who use few of them."

To see sociolinguistics reduced to a superficial Vice.com opinion piece is truly stunning.





https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5523ffe4e4b012b2c4ebd8fc/t/56ddaf3fab48defc357acdf0/1457368895228/Tannen-NewYorkJewishConversationalStyle.pdf

http://ip-klaeden.selfhost.eu/tina/Studium/Anglistik/Gender%20Language/Gender%20Language.html#kap34

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5523ffe4e4b012b2c4ebd8fc/t/56fae0e82eeb817eecbc532e/1459282153444/2015+Discourse+and+Gender.pdf

[hlthe2b]

18. Honestly? His no-holds barred emphatic sometimes angry manner has endeared him to millions

including his young supporters, who, you might think would be bothered by that if it were actually an issue.

I've lived all over, but I can't say that I'd ever stereotyped that type of speech nor manner as "Jewish." Maybe a product of a time period for some white males, but I really would not have put an ethnic association on it.

Seems like a pretty unnecessarily divisive issue being promoted by the article ...

[pangaia]

23. its not. it is just brooklyn.. and NOT near the brooklyn museum

closer to flatbush

Pee Wee The Duke, Jackie, et all.....

[Odoreida]

26. I have that accent.

Not my first choice this time around, but I'll be happy (not just grudgingly willing) to vote for him come November 2020 if it works out that way.

[pangaia]

31. wear the accent proudly..

maybe that's the REAL: American sound.. like the Kyoto sound is the REAL Japanese sound. NOT the Tokyo sound.

LOL

[GulfCoast66]

32. Of all the reasons I have read for not liking him,

I can’t remember once it being his accent

Maybe I missed something.

And while I don’t care for him, I find the accent refreshing. Not his specific one but that he has one.

Just in my lifetime I have witnessed the regression of regional accents as the media becomes more pervasive. When visiting my family back in Louisiana and Arkansas the richness of the older folks accents are much more noticeable than in their grandkids. Compared to my mother I sound like a northern. Well, not really. When up north they always comment on my accent.

[wyldwolf]

34. Most people tend to like other accents

I'm from the south and my wife from New York. I found out years ago they love southern accents so I exaggerate mine for extra attention in restaurants.

[bluewater]

37. +1000

[GulfCoast66]

39. I do the same when to my advantage. My wife, a midwesterner with no accent finds it hilarious

I once attended meetings in Canada. At a social event after the meetings I found myself being asked all kinds of questions by the others in the room. To the point of embarrassment. I commented on it to be told they just like listening to the way I talk! And I really don’t have much of my accent left!

Although there was alcohol involved and that always brings it out!

[wyldwolf]

40. I don't have much of an accent left, either

I worked in radio for some years and worked to mute the accent. Other people in the south think I'm midwestern. Northeners hear a slight hint of it. But I know how to turn it on and off, y'all.

[GulfCoast66]

41. When I turn on my patois, it is a crazy mix of Arkansas and South Louisiana!

But I always use standard English grammar. I can’t stand ain’t and such. Well ok, of course I use y’all!

[wyldwolf]

42. I'm the only person I know who understands a Cajun accent, but I have to listen real close.

I've found southern colloquialisms go over real well. Tell a northern women she looks sweet enough to pour on plate and sop up with a biscuit and she's suddenly your best friend.

[GulfCoast66]

46. My grandmother was Cajun! Grew up with it.

Have a nice evening. We’ve hijacked this thread enough!

[George II]

51. My accent is completely gone, but my wife tells me it comes back a little after a couple of beers!

[wyldwolf]

33. My wife's family is from New York. Bunch of interrupters!

I've learned to just continue talking but with my voice raised. They think THAT's rude, LOL!

[warmfeet]

52. If Bernie is the Democratic nominee,

I will vote for him, without hesitation, in the general election.

[pnwmom]

54. Bernie talks like a New Yorker and so does Donald Trump.

To people from the NY/NJ/CT area, their accents probably sound very distinct.

But to many of us non-NewYorkers, they sound too close for comfort. The main difference is that Bernie is more consistent in the accent; Trump's comes out more in speeches.

From a linguistics lab at the University of Texas, Austin:

http://sites.utexas.edu/lrc/2016/03/20/two-candidates-one-accent/?fbclid=IwAR3P0iTuFAcZ5KsIMpWGjuPXYM97u9_kX-woWedPoMdbRryPsA3p2SyzVgk

Two Candidates – One Accent

Posted on March 20, 2016

When judged by their policies, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump may be as different as any of the 2016 presidential candidates. But linguistically, they are surprisingly similar, united by their New York City accents. Nonetheless, our analyses of their speech patterns reveal some significant differences in how their NYC accents become stronger or weaker in different settings, namely interviews, speeches, and debates: Trump adapts his speech to certain factors, while Sanders does not.

The NYC accent is famous among American English dialects. It is often portrayed in films and television series, and a number of notable celebrities are identifiable with the accent, such as Joan Rivers, Danny DeVito, Woody Allen, and Leah Remini. Thus, most English speakers in the United States can imitate a speaker from NYC, or at least how they perceive this speaker to sound. In fact, the prized aggressiveness that comes with Trump’s and Sanders’ NYC accents has been noted by researchers in linguistics.

SNIP

Both Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders are easily categorizable and recognizable as speakers of NYC English, showing high usage levels for all of the features we studied.

Trump is a pliable adapter and linguistic performer who alters his speech depending on whom he speaks to and in what contexts. He shows the highest usage levels for New York accent features when giving political speeches and when addressing audiences in New York.

[SouthernProgressive]

55. Over it. Done. Thanks. NT

[appalachiablue]

56. Bernie's 'anger' & accent I hardly notice except the negative comments.

Actually I like the way he speaks and holds discussions. 'Loud' doesn't turn me off either...it's all relative.

The Brooklyn Accent, ('Toity-toid Street'), Actress Clara Bow, Speech Teacher Edith Skinner and the Mid-Atlantic Accent
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-a-fake-british-accent-took-old-hollywood-by-storm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clara_Bow

The only clip with a slight accent I found. ('cwoffee')

[dhol82]

58. Still won't make me vote for him.

His time is over.
However, he makes an excellent senator.

[Jopin Klobe]

59. Want to hear "New York" (Bronx) ...

... Garry and/or Penny Marshall ...

... listen to them ...

... they ain't Jewish ...

... they's I-talian ...

[RandySF]

60. Bernie IS cranky, and it has nothing to do with religion.

[still_one]

62. ++++++++++

[katmondoo]

64. I am ready for calm and and a happy face at least some of the time

Bernie is never happy

[SCVDem]

61. I think that many of us

Only know Jews from tv shows, written and produced by other Jewish people. I love the humor. Thanks Mel Brooks and Billy Crystal among many others.

No hate. No anti semetism. Just a lack of real life interactions. Not everything is bad.

[NurseJackie]

63. I don't need to do anything of the sort...

... There are many other reasons for me to not support him. Thank you very much.

[SurfinBetty]

66. My first thought as well

It's very patronizing to tell me to get over something and pretend like an accent is the reason I wouldn't vote for someone.

[myohmy2]

74. I'm...

...starting to feel the burn again...

...

[democratisphere]

76. Well, ahhh..........oh never mind.

[democratisphere]

77. Well, ahhh..........oh never mind.

[Lordquinton]

78. There's an undercurrent against bernie

For being the only non-christian candidate out there. If anyone thinks that his being Jewish has nothing to do with how he's treated in this age where white supremacists are on the rise (and in the white House) they should really step back and reevaluate things.

As for being angry, yeah, he's angry. I'm angry, everyone should be angry. Painting angry as bad is a classic tactic of suppression. It's why I like Warren, she gets angry too. Harris gets angry, which is very bold for her, and Obama really opened the door for her and Booker to show emotion. JB never seems angry, and I really don't feel like he'd fight for our rights like others.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

84. Like the saying goes:

“If you are not outraged you are not paying attention”

[NurseJackie]

93. LOL!

There's an undercurrent against bernie
For being the only non-christian candidate out there.

No... I assure you people have many other reasons to be "against Bernie". It's very patronizing to suggest that rational people such as myself should "get over" something so superficial and to deflect by pretending that something like accent why I wouldn't vote for someone.

If anyone thinks that his being Jewish has nothing to do with how he's treated in this age where white supremacists are on the rise (and in the white House) they should really step back and reevaluate things.

Oh good grief! GMAFB! It's even MORE absurd for anyone to characterize the multiple valid, well-considered, thoughtful and legitimate reasons that we/I reject BS is somehow related to his religion (it isn't) and that we are being anti-Semitic (we aren't).

I guess that type of knee-jerk defense (smear, insult and attack) is easy because it doesn't require as much thought. I assure you, the many reasons that I reject BS have absolutely nothing to do with his accent or his religion.

[George II]

101. I guess you forgot about Tulsi Gabbard and possible Kamala Harris, who was raised....

...both Baptist and Hindu. In fact, her first job after college was at Jewish General Hospital in Montreal.

Hmm, did you just do what you're talking about others doing?

[JudyM]

106. "Painting angry as bad is a classic tactic of suppression."

Interesting that some rely on this as part of their routine commentary.

[BlueWI]

120. +1000

If seeing oligarchs and white supremacists run amok and no climate urgency isn't enough for anger, I can't help ya.

[comradebillyboy]

80. This article presents such a negative caricature of American Jews

that it borders on being anti-Semitic.

[George II]

81. That was my impression, but was hesitant to say that here. It certainly doesn't shine...

...a positive light on Jews, especially Brooklyn/NYC Jews. In fact it's downright negative about Brooklyn Jews, quite offensive.

[NurseJackie]

94. Agreed. The fact that anyone would glom-on to this as a way to defend BS...

Agreed. The fact that anyone would glom-on to this as a way to defend BS tells me that his supporters (and indeed his campaign itself) is running short of things that will explain or justify his precipitous fall in the polls, and to explain why it is that he continues to lose traction.

It's a lazy defense that insults the intelligence of others who have perfectly valid reasons for not supporting (or for disliking BS). It speaks of a campaign that's in trouble when they resort to insulting those who disagree with him and accusing them of being superficial or anti-Semites.

That's no way to run a winning campaign. As a party (and as a nation) I think we can do better. The cream of the crop is already starting to rise to the top. We're getting a good feel for the type of candidate that the party (and our nation) want to support. The rest of the campaigns will fade away quickly (we hope) and others will desperately hang on for a long as they can until they succumb to a loss of support and/or donors to the point that it's no longer a viable campaign.

Fact of the matter is, it's just not a winning strategy for a national campaign (and its supporters) to hurl blanket and broadbrush insults and smears against those who support someone else.

[Danascot]

105. I always thought it was great that he was

so welcomed by Vermonters.

[Princetonian]

111. Bernie has been the most likeable politician for the past THREE YEARS amongst Democratic voters...

1. "Sanders Viewed Most Favorably of 2020 Democratic Candidates" (July 20, 2019)
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/07/20/man-can-beat-trump-sanders-viewed-most-favorably-2020-democratic-candidates

2. He was the most likeable candidate during the 2016 election season as well:

"While Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump register as the most unpopular presidential nominees ever, there remains a real fondness for the guy Clinton beat in the primary."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/19/the-most-popular-politician-in-america-might-just-be-a-socialist/?utm_term=.036b4c625573

3. "Black Voters Like Bernie Sanders Just Fine — They Just Might Like Other Candidates More"
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/black-voters-like-bernie-sanders-just-fine-they-just-might-like-other-candidates-more/

4. "BERNIE SANDERS IS THE MOST POPULAR 2020 CANDIDATE AMONG HISPANIC VOTERS, NEW POLLING FINDS" https://theintercept.com/2019/04/06/bernie-sanders-latino-hispanic-voters

Nothing wrong with Bernie. Haters gonna hate but sadly for them the fact remains that a large majority of Democratic voters like him, me included.

[Uncle Joe]

112. I appreciate your grace Princetonian.

Peace to you.

[Princetonian]

113. Thank you, Uncle Joe.

[ehrnst]

115. And you support Biden, unlike the vast majority of those who like Bernie.

What is it about Biden that you like better about the "most likeable" candidate?

[marble falls]

116. Being likable and being electable may not be the same thing. I like Bernie, but I am not sure ...

he can beat Trump.

[ehrnst]

122. Crickets.... (nt)

[SidDithers]

114. Kick for shits and giggles...nt

Sid

[BlueWI]

121. Holy non sequitur, Batman!

At some point, wasn't there preference expressed for positive statements about your own candidate as opposed to random news items from four years ago?

At some point the whole country has to be challenged to repudiate its current trends toward oligarchy and re-emergent white supremacy. The role of Sanders in calling out oligarchy was way ahead of the pack in 2015 and the message remains relevant with economic inequality continuing to trend the wrong way. Whoever wins the nom needs to lean into this issue, to say the least, or we will be at 1890s levels of wealth inequality. Not confident that's a fight Biden will take on.

So I don't have any problem with going to Liberty University in a campaign. And of course, not everyone is observant of religious holidays. But you know that.

[Trumpocalypse]

124. I have lived in Brooklyn all my life

I grew up with and know many Jewish people. Not one of them speaks like Sanders does.

[SidDithers]

125. ...

Link to tweet

Sid