Sanders at least admits MFA will require tax increases. Warren, disappointingly, dodges

[highplainsdem]

the question.

Chris Matthews was trying repeatedly on MSNBC a little while ago to get her to say whether MFA will raise people's taxes. She refused to answer, just kept talking about "costs." It will lower "costs."

Now, it's obvious she's trying to avoidd providing the GOP with a clip of her saying MFA will raise taxes.

But Bernie's already admitted that.

And voters aren't so stupid they won't be able to see she's dodging the question.

I like Warren a lot, and one of the things I like about her is her directness. She tackes subjects head on.

So this refusal to answer Matthews' question was both surprising and disappointing.

[UniteFightBack]

1. There is another thread in the GD forum saying how fucking horrible Matthews is for daring to

ask this.

[LonePirate]

2. Taxes will go up but premiums paid for employer based insurance will drop to $0. It's a net savings.

Plus costs will go down making it an even more beneficial system.

[highplainsdem]

4. She should simply explain that in her usual direct way. It's atypical for her to dodge a question,

and IMO it hurts her more politically than it helps her.

[HerbChestnut]

10. That's because certain people, including many on this board, use the "tax increase"

as an argument against M4A. It's ludicrous and takes advantage of people's ignorance on the topic.

[CentralMass]

14. It is IMO a tactic the r's would use.

[HerbChestnut]

15. Yup.

[thesquanderer]

22. Not so atypical. Remember all her intentionally ambiguous answers to whether she'd run?

If she doesn't want to give you a direct answer to a question, she won't, she'll just repeat her answer, being sure to avoid clearing up the ambiguity.

I still support her, but, yeah, she's still a politician. And I still admire Bernie for not playing those games.

[OnDoutside]

3. That's political astuteness. That said, she needs to either move

on to a more explainable version of it, or MFA will eventually kill her campaign when she gets boxed into a corner on this. Same too for Kamala.

[customerserviceguy]

5. At one point

I even saw Tweety give up on it, muttered something under his breath when he couldn't get what he considered a straight answer.

Sen. Warren did OK with the junior varsity team tonight, but when she has to deal with only double-digit polling debaters, things might go differently.

[BeyondGeography]

6. Here's the clip, she's my candidate

and I’m glad she stuck to her message and didn’t play along with Tweety’s Republican frame:

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/elizabeth-warren-medicare-for-all-is-cheaper-than-our-current-system-64939077678

[JI7]

7. i don't think it's a bad soundbyte. the reason people are less likely to support this is because

they like what they have and don't want it taken away.

it's not taxes they are worried about as much as the above.

[wasupaloopa]

8. It is not a trade off. You pay taxes with every paycheck.

You pay healthcare premiums monthly. Yes Medicare has premium payments.

Taxes go up premiums will not be lower because you use to pay part of the premium and your employer paid part. Now you pay all but maybe lower total premium.

I have Medicare and I pay about the same as when I was working. I had a high deductible HSA plan. I rarely go to the doctor.

Basically with MFA your monthly bills will go up.

Also providers will not want less money for their services. There will be a need for more clinics and doctors and nurses. That cost is not in the MFA bill.

Right now MFA is pie in the sky.

[DURHAM D]

13. Question: Currently the Employer pays 1.45%

and employee pay 1.45% of Medicare part of FICA. Are you saying that with Medicare 4 All the Employer pays 0% and the employee pays whatever the entire amount is?

[emmaverybo]

9. I did not like her answer. She simply avoided the word taxes, sticking with "costs" going down.

Why couldn't she say that your taxes will go up, but your healthcare costs will go down, leaving you with a net plus?

[Beartracks]

11. I think the question is disingenuous.

Warren's answer is accurate, while the question -- especially when asked over and over -- is designed to elicit an inaccurate "straightforward" answer that is anything but straightforward.

=========

[Sinistrous]

20. "Disingenuous", that is the term I was looking for. Thank you.

[CentralMass]

12. What are we republicans ? The current tax rate is very low.

Here is a link to an article with several analysis of the likely costs for medicare for all. It does not sugar coat

Here is an article on how the current healthcare cost growth is unsustainable.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/finance/why-the-new-normal-for-healthcare-cost-growth-isn-t-sustainable.html

Something has to change. Single payer or Medicare for all maybe a sea change but the current system is unsustainable. It is time we made the people of this country and our quality of life a priority instead of it veing the oligarchs slush fund.

[TexasTowelie]

17. Conflating the overall federal income tax rate

with the Medicare tax rate does not yield a strong argument.

[highplainsdem]

16. Politico article on Warren dodging this question when Jake Tapper asked it, more than once:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/30/elizabeth-warrens-inconvenient-truths-227490

Elizabeth Warren Buries Some Inconvenient Truths

-snip-

Both Warren and Sanders back a “single payer” system that effectively rules out private health insurance. The centrist candidates on stage—including John Delaney, Governor Steve Bullock, and Rep. Tim Ryan—all insist that this is bad policy and political nitroglycerin, since, among other things, it is paid for by a tax increase that includes the middle class. Sanders has forthrightly said, yes, but the middle class will be better off once it will not have to pay insurance premiums.

Warren was less forthcoming.

“Giant corporations and billionaires are going to pay more. Middle class families are going to pay less out-of-pocket for their health care.”

-snip-

Warren ducked again. “Costs will go up for billionaires and go up for corporations,” Warren said. “For middle class families, costs—total costs—will go down.”

This leaves an obvious question that will follow her through the campaign: “Bernie Sanders is frank enough to acknowledge the obvious, and then explain it. Why won’t you?” The answer may be as simple as: if you say you will raise middle class taxes, an unmeasurable but likely significant number of voters simply will not bother to wait for the rest of your explanation.

-snip-

[Lordquinton]

18. People do know that getting a democratic candidate to go on tape saying they will raise taxes

is a republican talking point, right? Like, it's standard R tactics "The dems will raise your taxes!!!!"

What I want to know it why I'm reading it so much here...

[Hav]

19. I can see both points of this issue

Warren's main point was that in the end, it's not your tax rate that matters but the overall cost. Concentrating on percentage points isn't focusing on the crucial topics when the alternative is having no healthcare or having high costs or going bankrupt for what is standard inexpensive/covered service in many other countries. Also, it's understandable that you don't want to to create soundbites to use against you.

On the other side, maybe as an education of the population to reach and persuade more people, it might be helpful to be completely open and honest about the issue. Yes, you might see an increase in your taxes or initial costs but then let's talk about what you get in return. I'm sure there are many who were hit with obscene medical bills or who are worried that as soon as something happens, they won't have the money to receive the needed treatment.
Some here are claiming that it's a Repub talking point when one demands that a politician is honest about tax increases. Then let's work to dismantle the talking point which is only possible if one doesn't dodge the issue it addresses.

[Sinistrous]

21. I find it disturbing that Sen. Warren

is being excoriated for properly dealing with a phony question.

[wyldwolf]

23. here's the transcript

TAPPER: At the last debate, you said you’re, quote, “with Bernie on Medicare for all.” Now, Senator Sanders has said that people in the middle class will pay more in taxes to help pay for Medicare for all, though that will be offset by the elimination of insurance premiums and other costs. Are you also, quote, “with Bernie” on Medicare for all when it comes to raising taxes on middle-class Americans to pay for it?

WARREN: So giant corporations and billionaires are going to pay more. Middle-class families are going to pay less out of pocket for their health care. And I'd like to finish talking about Ady, the guy who has ALS... (this was the first dodge of the question)

--- snip of Warren discussing the guy with ALS ----

TAPPER: Thank you, Senator. Just a point of clarification... (because she dodged it the first time)

(APPLAUSE)

... in 15 extra seconds, would you raise taxes on the middle class to pay for Medicare for All, offset, obviously, by the elimination of insurance premiums, yes or no?

WARREN: Costs will go up for billionaires and go up for corporations. For middle-class families, costs -- total costs -- will go down. (Dodge number 2)