If a politician's first instinct is repeatedly wrong...

[bluewater]

How much credit do they deserve for evolving?

Joe Biden on LGBTQ personnel in the Military:

In 1993, as a United States Senator, Biden voted in favor of 10 U.S.C. §654, a section of a broader federally mandated policy that deemed homosexuality incompatible with military life thereby banning gay Americans from serving in the United States armed forces in any capacity without exception.[63] The law was subsequently modified by President Clinton through the issuance of DOD Directive 1304.26 (subsequently nicknamed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" or DADT) which accommodated "closeted" service to the extent that a servicemember's homosexual sexual orientation was neither discovered nor disclosed.[64] The ban was held unconstitutional in Log Cabin Republicans v. United States for violation of First and Fifth Amendment rights.[65] The Obama Administration, in accordance with President Obama's unfavorable view of the law, pushed a legislative repeal of 10 U.S.C. §654 on December 15, 2010.[66][67]


Joe Biden on Marriage Equality:

In 1996, Biden voted in favor of the Defense of Marriage Act (1 U.S.C. §7) which prohibited the federal government from recognizing any same-sex marriage, barring individuals in such marriages from equal protection under federal law, and allowing states to do the same.[68] In 2013, Section 3 of DOMA was ruled unconstitutional and partially struck down in United States v. Windsor. The Obama Administration did not defend the law and congratulated Windsor.[69] In 2015, DOMA was ruled unconstitutional in totality in Obergefell v. Hodges.[70]
In a May 2012 Meet the Press interview, Vice President Biden publicly reversed his previous position, stating he was "absolutely comfortable with the fact that men marrying men, women marrying women, and heterosexual men and women marrying another are entitled to the same exact rights, all the civil rights, all the civil liberties. And quite frankly, I don't see much of a distinction beyond that."[71]


Joe Biden on Federal abortion funding

From 1976 to June 5, 2019, Biden supported the Hyde Amendment [which prohibited Federal funds being used for abortion].[82][83] On June 6, 2019, Biden reversed his support and now supports repealing the Hyde Amendment.[84] In 1981, he voted to end federal funding for abortion for victims of rape and incest.[79] Biden previously supported the Mexico City policy, but now supports repealing it.[80]


Joe Biden on Internet privacy and file sharing:

In 2006, in its Technology Issues Voter's Guide, CNET.com gave Biden a score of 37.5% on his Senate voting record.[56][57] They described him as "Pro-RIAA" and "Pro-FBI" in his file sharing and privacy stances. Biden sponsored a bill that would prohibit recording songs off of Satellite and Internet radio,[58] and signed a letter urging the Justice Department to prosecute file sharers.[citation needed]
Biden also sponsored two bills, the Comprehensive Counter-Terrorism Act (SB 266) and the Violent Crime Control Act (SB 618), both of which contained language seen as effectively banning encryption.[59] Crypto notes Biden wrote that language into the text of SB 266.[60] Phil Zimmermann, the creator of Pretty Good Privacy, has said it was SB 266 that "led [him] to publish PGP electronically for free that year, shortly before the measure was defeated after vigorous protest by civil libertarians and industry groups."[61] He later stated in a Slashdot article that he was not specifically criticizing Biden, that he would consider the Senator's "whole body of work" when considering whether to vote for him on the Democratic ticket in 2008, and that "considering the disastrous erosion in our privacy and civil liberties under the (Bush) administration, I feel positively nostalgic about Biden's quaint little non-binding resolution of 1991".[62]


Joe Biden on Drug laws:

Biden earned a reputation for being a "drug warrior," leading efforts in the war on drugs.[27] During the 1980s crack epidemic when both Democrats and Republicans were "tough on crime," Biden was the head of the Senate Judiciary Committee that passed numerous punitive measures against drug offenders. In 1986, Biden sponsored and co-wrote the Anti-Drug Abuse Act which caused a large disparity between the sentencing of crack cocaine and powder cocaine users. Black drug users use crack more than cocaine, hence they were incarcerated in larger numbers.[28][29]
[snip]
During the 2007 Democratic primary debate at Howard University, Biden acknowledged the consequences of the drug laws he authored and supported in the 1980s. He said there is a need to close the disparity in punishment between crack and powder cocaine users and a "diversion out of the prison system" and into treatment.[30] In 2010, Biden supported the Fair Sentencing Act which aimed to reduce the disparity.[33]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Joe_Biden

Perhaps a more important question is, what if their first instinct repeatedly needs to be corrected in the future?

Many of Joe Biden's policy evolutions took years and often decades to correct his initial positions.

[Kurt V.]

1. they deserve some credit. but being right out of the gate deserves more credit.

[EveHammond13]

2. listen to me. we live in a country filled with bad, stupid people.

reflect on what is necessary to get their votes. reflect on how abusively stupid they are. reflect on the f5 shit storm of propaganda they are sucking up from the media. I wish they weren't ignorant slime bags. but they are.

you go to the election with the electorate you have, not the electorate you wish you had.

[tblue37]

35. + 1. This is true. It's why even Obama had to "evolve" on LBQT rights. nt

[George II]

3. Nice job...

Remember, your candidate's first instinct was to be a republican!



Simple solution - don't like Biden? Don't vote for him.

[BannonsLiver]

25. Which candidate?

Booker, or the current “selection”?

[George II]

32. Bazinga!

[Skittles]

4. I have long failed to understand his popularity

[Cha]

7. Yeah, that's obvious.

[sacto95834]

45. Joe Biden is a nice guy....

That's what people see when the watch him. How he governs and the policies he supports are a different issue.

[Politicub]

5. DOMA and DADT make me physically ill

So glad these are consigned to the dustbin of history.

I didn’t know Biden voted for them until I read your post.

I’m glad he evolved, but those laws were very harsh on the already-persecuted LGBT community. I know the history about these laws being passed in lieu of a marriage amendment being proposed for the constitution. Still, I am surprised Biden supported them. 14 democratic senators voted against DOMA.

[highplainsdem]

40. 14 Democratic senators voted against DOMA, but 18 voted for it. 2/3 of the Dems in the House

voted for it.

[Politicub]

41. It's hard to give a pass on the DOMA vote. It had a horrific, direct effect on my life...

beyond not being able to marry. I deleted my lengthy post about why this makes me so angry because I am too close to it.

I don't think I need to discuss this because it won't do the candidate any favors. Biden has a long record of not-so-great and downright wrongheaded votes to defend. I am fine with Biden as a candidate. Go team Biden and all that. But this was a harmful vote.

[Cha]

6. Oh Boo Hoo.. another hit job on Joe Biden..

Big ******* Shocker!

And, you did all this for Nothing.

I don't give a shite if Elizabeth Warren was a republican at one point.

[cwydro]

17. Somehow Cha, I doubt that the OP's declared preference is exactly as it seems.

Just a feeling.

[BannonsLiver]

26. You mean they're really for Cory Booker?

If memory serves that was their first choice...from before.

[wyldwolf]

49. The OP used to have Kamala Harris as his/her selection

... it changed mid-conversation with me a few weeks ago. She/he still alerts on anything negative about Harris.

[keithbvadu2]

8. Some things take a long time to change from bad to good when they were first considered good.

Some things take a long time to change from bad to good when they were first considered good.

Women's right to vote.

Slavery - was ok in the Bible. The Bible has not changed.

(I am not saying they were actually good.)

[delisen]

39. Even Old Testament celebrates Jews deliverance from slavery. nt

[keithbvadu2]

42. Yep... Deliverance from but not elimination of slavery.

Yep... Deliverance from but not elimination of slavery.

[Autumn]

9. Evolving is okay. When you are for something that is the right thing before it's popular is better.

That is what I want, a person who doesn't have to evolve on human rights and women's healthcare.

[bluewater]

18. Well said!

[sacto95834]

47. Evolving....

Does that mean you lead or are you just following where the electorate has move to? I personally prefer you lead with an unpopular stance that eventually the electorate comes to agree with.

[Autumn]

48. Some wait till it's popular to "evolve" on a subject. Some politicians listen to the people, even if

they disagree with the people others calculate the costs and damage to themselves before they do anything. Take legalizing marijuana for instance. In a few states, the people have moved on to legalizing it and the smart politicians have followed. Some politicians, like Biden, think it should be left to the states and it should be decriminalized. The problem with that is it's still criminalized at the Federal Level. As it stands now, shop owners can't use banks and marijuana is still considered a Schedule 1 drug by the DEA. The Feds need to removed from the picture. Again, some politicians have followed the electorate and are for legalizing it at the Federal level.

[NYMinute]

10. Biden did this and Biden did that

Biden's positions are well-known by most Democrats and most of them were congruent with either Pres. Clinton or Pres. Obama or both. Both of them extremely popular former presidents.

How is such whining going to help your idol - the exalted messiah? (whoever it may be - I say this keeping a straight face)

[dsc]

11. The DADT part is so misleading it veers into dishonesty

The clear implication of your post is that gays could serve openly until Joe Biden and others voted to ban them. That is badly false. Gay and lesbian soldiers were often arrested and then forced out of the service for decades starting in the 1940's. DADT was a compromise after Clinton's defeat on this issue. Biden was in favor of letting gays serve like many other Democrats were but agreed to the compromise after that was defeated.

[Amimnoch]

36. So true!

If only people knew what going into and being in the Military in those years leading up to DADT..

Interrogated by your recruiter if you're gay, have ever been gay, have gay thoughts or feelings, had a gay experience..

Interrogated at MEPS if you're gay, have ever been gay, have gay thoughts or feelings, had a gay experience.. Followed by threatening statements on how you can be discharged, and even prosecuted if you are lying..

Interrogated during the "moment of truth" day in Bootcamp asking if you're gay, have ever been gay, have gay thoughts or feelings, had a gay experience.. Followed by threatening statements on how you can be discharged, and even prosecuted if you are lying..

DADT was a WONDERFUL step forward for the timeframe, and paved the way for President Obama making it obsolete!

Over were the days of Shore patrol standing outside of gay nightclubs just looking for those of us that looked "Navy" coming out of them.. Over were the days of being interrogated about it.. Over were the days of someone suggesting you might be, and getting called before IS's with ONI to answer questions on your sexuality..

It wasn't perfect by a long shot, but for those of us who LIVED it, it was a HUGE step forward.

[Vegas Roller]

12. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha

The Biden derangement syndrome machine continues to churn out defective widgets.

[left-of-center2012]

13. I expect to see Biden's elementary school quotes here one day

Maybe he cut into the lunch line back in 3rd grade?

[Jose Garcia]

14. How long was Elizabeth Warren a registered Republican?

[BlueMTexpat]

16. WTF has that to do

with this OP?

I've seen that shade drawn in a couple responses here and find it to be a non-sequitur in any and all of such. Please remember that Hillary Clinton also started out as a Republican and she is still, IMO, the best and most qualified Democratic Presidential nominee that we have ever had, bar none.

Here is an April article from Politico, that some could consider to be a hit piece on Warren, but, again IMO, that does not really work out that way.

...
Warren has acknowledged her Republican past before, but she does not often discuss it, or else downplays it. In a recent interview over tea at her home in Cambridge, Massachusetts, she said she assumes the first time she registered as a Democrat was 1996, but added, “I’m not even 100 percent sure what I was registered as.” According to Warren, in the six presidential elections she voted in before 1996, she cast her ballot for just one GOP nominee, Gerald Ford in 1976. She does not talk about her Republican past in either of her books or as part of the biography she recounts in her stump speech; the information often comes as a surprise even to Beltway politicos and longtime Warren allies.

“I was just never very political,” is how Warren explains her Republican years. “I just never thought much about the political end.”

Friends and colleagues agree that Warren wasn’t much of a political activist in her youth or the early part of her career. But Warren’s intellectual journey is more complicated than the apathy-to-activism route she often presents.

...
The story of Warren’s awakening—from a true believer in free markets to a business-bashing enforcer of fair markets; from a moderate Republican who occasionally missed an election to one of the most liberal senators in America vying to lead the Democratic Party—breaks the mold of the traditional White House contender and is key to understanding how she sees the world: with a willingness to change when presented with new data, and the anger of someone who trusted the system and felt betrayed.
(emphasis mine)

...

ETA the link: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/04/12/elizabeth-warren-profile-young-republican-2020-president-226613

[highplainsdem]

23. HRC and Warren are approximately the same age. HRC switched to the Democratic Party in the late

1960s.

It took Warren about 30 years longer to make that switch.

30 years.

In decades that were very focused on politics.

I'm glad she switched.

But if Biden's going to be criticized for statements and votes decades ago that many Democrats agreed with at that time, then Warren remaining a Republican until a couple of decades ago should also be seen as not being on the right side of issues.

[bluewater]

24. "But if Biden's going to be criticized for statements and votes"

Then we should criticize Elizabeth Warren for her statements and votes too, right?

Would you please post some of Warren's statements and votes from that period that you disagree with?

Please provide links.

I'd be especially interested in any votes she cast in Congress during that time, to compare them to Biden's votes.

oh.... wait. Warren was just a private citizen back then.

[highplainsdem]

29. Your OP refers to first instincts. Warren's first instinct, which she continued to follow for a few

decades of her adult life, was to be a Republican, side with Republicans.

Again, I'm very glad she's changed.

[bluewater]

30. No links? No Votes? No statements?

I see.

The OP has ALL OF THOSE concerning Biden's record.

Thanks for bumping the thread.

[LanternWaste]

44. I'd move the goalposts too...

when presented with the GOP membership CV of the candidate we're supporting.

The important thing is we continue holding others to a much higher standard than our own candidates-- doing so is much more convenient than examining our own past.

[BannonsLiver]

27. The OP isn't really a Warren supporter.

Will leave it at that.

[PatrickforO]

15. Biden isn't my first choice for various reasons.

The main reason is he's a bit too centrist for me.

That said, if he goes deep in the primaries and is our nominee, I'll be supporting him tooth and nail.

It's just that I like Warren's policies so much better. This new legislation she just introduced on predatory private equity companies (think Bain Capital) is great. It actually protects things like worker pensions in the case they work for a company unlucky enough to be gobbled up by a Bain.

Of course, I'm an economics wonk.

Most Americans aren't, but I'm with AOC on that one - I firmly believe Americans CAN be educated on, and can understand, complex issues like monetary and fiscal policy. The trick is getting the word out when the corporate-owned media believe otherwise.

I am looking forward to the next debate. Should be quite interesting, with the third debate even better, simply because by then the field will have narrowed substantially.

[thesquanderer]

19. If you've been in politics any length of time, there are bound to be things you've changed on...

...whether it's because times have changed, or because you have.

Unless maybe you're Bernie Sanders.

I get your point about judgment, but honestly, if I'm okay with the positions someone is putting forth today, I don't care much about what they said 5 or 25 years ago. Because they will govern based on what they're saying today. Whatever platform gets you into office is the one it makes sense to promote.

Also, a president is different from a senator. They actually don't need to take specific positions on so many things. Only on stuff that actually passes the House and Senate, and on things they choose to specifically fight for. And with a Dem party that is somewhat left of where it's mostly been in the post-Reagan years, I don't see a lot of pressure on Biden to be as accommodating to the right as he may have felt was appropriate in those times. In the end, Biden is a political animal. Maybe that served us not so well at times, but these times are different.

[highplainsdem]

20. Other Democratic senators who voted for DOMA: Durbin. Leahy. Dodd. Wellstone. Harry Reid.

Bob Graham. And the list goes on.

Chuck Schumer, then in the House, voted for DOMA.

Roughly 2/3 of the Democrats in the House voted for it.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1996/roll316.xml

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=104&session=2&vote=00280

[bluewater]

21. Any of those politicians running for President in 2020?

No.

But Joe Biden is.

Hence voting for the DOMA, aka being against marriage equality, is a relevant point to bring up about... Joe Biden.

But, Biden has evolved. He changed his position.

It's just that, again on this issue, his first instinct was wrong and it took him years and years to evolve.

[highplainsdem]

22. If Biden's DOMA vote is relevant, so is Warren having been a Republican for many years.

[bluewater]

37. Sorry, but voting against Marriage Equality as a Senator is simply a bigger issue.

DOMA = the homophobic "The Defense of Marriage Act" which was against the basic human right of allowing people to marry the person they love.

Biden voted for that.

But then, he evolved. He changed his position.

It just took him years and years to evolve.

[highplainsdem]

43. See reply 28 below.

[emmaverybo]

51. Doesn't matter how long it took. He evolved and has been a strong supporter of gay rights for

some time. Other Dems evolved with him. Obama evolved. And DADT was a tremendous step forward when otherwise there would have been none.

[treestar]

28. Who do you believe you are

Convincing with this project?

[ehrnst]

31. Ask Senator Sanders

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/266719-sanders-clarifies-controversial-remarks-on-planned-parenthood

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/19/politics/bernie-sanders-black-voters-2020/index.html

https://rewire.news/article/2019/04/30/heres-how-bernie-sanders-missed-the-mark-at-she-the-people-forum/

https://time.com/4089946/bernie-sanders-gay-marriage/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-about-sierra-blanca-bernie_b_9233818

[Renew Deal]

34. I think this is an underexplored area of Biden's history

Glad it's getting attention.

[SouthernProgressive]

38. It's abundantly clear at this point that you are not a Warren supporter.

What are your thoughts on the UAW? Family history?

[treestar]

46. Obama must not have seen

That problem. Nor most of Delaware for 40 years.

[highplainsdem]

50. Nor the Human Rights Campaign, which had Biden speak at their annual dinner a couple of months ago.

[questionseverything]

52. obama was considered progressive

I always thought he picked biden ,being more conservative to balance the ticket

and there was no chance for biden to outshine Obama


biden not wanting to legalize mj at the federal level is a huge mistake

and when he talks about returning to punishing voters who cant afford insurance I literally scream at my tv...are you trying to lose?

he has a son that has drug problems and yet his son hasn't done prison time because he comes from money, right?

so he can continue being the drug warrior since it doesn't hurt him?

if we don't want trump to win we need to think about these things

[highplainsdem]

53. Obama was generally considered a moderate. In fact, he once said he'd have been considered

a moderate Republican in the 1980s.

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/272957-obama-says-his-economic-policies-so-mainstream-hed-be-seen-as-moderate-republican-in-1980s

Republicans who tend to smear all Dems as socialists would sometimes call him a socialist. But he was a moderate, by Democratic standards.

He didn't pick Biden as his running mate because he considered Biden more conservative.

He picked him for his experience, especially his foreign policy experience. And because they got along. And because he had such a high opinion of Biden:

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/128777601

[questionseverything]

54. well we certainly see obama differently, i remember him saying,

"if I was going to start from scratch, single payer would be the way to go but since we have the system we have in place, a public option seems to be a logical step forward"


that doesn't sound moderate to me


so I was just reading in my news feed how biden's plan includes drug court for mj offenders...I am starting to feel he is heartless especially since it doesn't affect his family ,since they have money, the way it affects most of us.

[treestar]

56. Hardly anyone looks at Biden that way

You are exaggerating so much; if another candidate is better; they don't need this - explain why your candidate is better. Also I am not sure of the importance of marijuana to that many people.

[treestar]

55. He does not mean punish people; he means have the ACA work, and the mandate

the idea is you can afford it because it is subsidized according to your income. You might argue you can't afford it, but the amounts of subsidies were decided per studies - some people just don't want to spend the money, but they should in case they need it and to keep the system going.

Why do you presume the son guilty without trial? Plus the son is another person - I don't think people should be held responsible for the actions of others, even their kids.