It's interesting some are pouncing on Biden for something he mentioned almost a year ago as well...

[Drunken Irishman]

Nothing political here, right?

Taken from a speech he delivered at the HRC in Sept., 2018:

"If you were at a fancy restaurant in Washington five or six years ago, and a gay or lesbian waiter came up, or a transgender, spoke with a lisp...and someone made fun of that person, no one would've said anything. Not a joke. I want you to think about this. If that same thing happened today, the other people at the table would say, you horses tail, get out of here. Really"[applause]

https://www.c-span.org/video/?451452-1/vice-president-biden-addresses-human-rights-campaign-dinner

There's legitimate reason to question things about candidates - but this feels forced and petty.

[MineralMan]

1. Yes, it's a pretty minimal issue to bring up, isn't it?

Plus, he got applause from the audience of human rights people. I'm not sure what we're supposed to take from this, really. Things have changed rather quickly in that area, to be sure. Now, nobody at a table I was at would have done something like that, because I don't hang out with people who would. But people are a lot less tolerant of bigotry like that these days.

I don't see where the scandal lies, really.

[Drunken Irishman]

2. Yes. It's a weird flex.

Remember the night Obama won the presidency ... and California turned around and voted to eliminate the rights of gay couples to marry?

California - not Utah or Idaho or Texas. CAL-IF-ORNIA.

Less than a decade later, marriage equality would be the law of the land.

[PBC_Democrat]

58. We don't always get to choose who is at the table

Last edited Mon Jul 1, 2019, 12:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Back when I was working I frequently how no control who was at the table. Between customers, partners, and whoever they chose to invite - I was meeting a lot of them for the first time.

My task was to get along with everyone.

I believe Joe was referring to those type situations where someone makes a rude, off-color, or non-PC remark.

Many years ago it would have been laughed off - Now that person would be called out on it.

[MineralMan]

59. That's certainly true.

I'm sure that everyone has let something slide in certain situations. In group settings where everyone is more or less equal in terms of authority or responsibility, it's usually better to take up issues with individuals later, instead of confronting the issue immediately.

"Jim, your comment during the meeting about [subject] really didn't go over well at all. Several people's expressions indicated that they were troubled by it. Not everything you think needs to be expressed in a group setting. Maybe you should think about that before you say something that will offend people you're meeting with, and think about whether what you might say even makes sense."

Something like that. The other thing you can do in a group is to catch the person's eye and show your objection subtly through your expression. A raised eyebrow, a look of disbelief, or an expression that shows your distaste for what was said is often more effective than a verbal criticism of the comment.

[Peacetrain]

3. It is forced .. it is petty .. it is desperate..

and they are not looking good for it...there are those who will pick up every word and try to make it negative.. because that is all they have.. and if you notice.. once the concocted story gets it full reading and not just a half reading to fit some preset narrative but what he really said..

You know what you hear.. Crickets..

Because there are those who are off and running for a new outrage.. and its one every day.. and I love how some will then turn and say things like well.. well "he muddled his words".. sigh..

Its a strategy.. but it is forced, petty and desperate

[onetexan]

26. Agree. Circular firing squad.

Dems need to get out of this mode of harming our own. Leave the mudslinging to be lobbed to the other side after the primaries.

[marylandblue]

32. "he muddled his words." You are quoting me and misinterpreting,

ironically in a thread complaining about how Biden gets misinterpreted. I understood what he was trying to say, but I feel it could have been stated better with a different example. I didn't insult him, claim I was outraged, make a big deal about, or say he is homophobic or any other such thing.

All I was trying to say was what he himself says, which is "I am a gaffe machine." That's a direct Biden quote and a great line for him. I wish he would use it more, then the press wouldn't find his gaffes, muddles, confusing statements, facile misinterpretations, or whatever you want to call them, so interesting.

I also wish his followers would recognize these things for what they are, instead of expressing faux outrage at other people's faux outrage.

[bluewater]

4. It tells us about the patrons of those fancy Washington restaurants

"If you were at a fancy restaurant in Washington five or six years ago, and a gay or lesbian waiter came up, or a transgender, spoke with a lisp...and someone made fun of that person, no one would've said anything. Not a joke. I want you to think about this."

Lets think about this...

So, who was eating at a fancy Washington restaurant 5-6 years ago... Politicians? Lobbyists? The other people at Joe's own table?

[Drunken Irishman]

5. Apparently something a lot in that crowd could relate to, since they applauded the line.

But hey, you do you.

[Cha]

7. You think about it.

[George II]

10. Nothing like twisting the idea behind the comments and the post. The same holds true...

...if it was McDonald's, a pizza joint, etc. Why did you have to drag in the weary talking points of "politicians? lobbyists?" ?

What is your point in doing that? Would love a response.

[bluewater]

11. Because Biden said "if you were at was a fancy Washington restaurant" in his story.

Didn't you read what he said?

"If you were at a fancy restaurant in Washington five or six years ago, and a gay or lesbian waiter came up, or a transgender, spoke with a lisp...and someone made fun of that person, no one would've said anything. Not a joke. I want you to think about this."

And yes, when someone mentions fancy Washington restaurants, like Biden did in his story, I do think of lobbyists and Politicians.

It sounds like he is relaying a personal story, that he actually heard that himself in a fancy Washington restaurant he was dining at.

Did he over hear that from another table, or did someone at his own table make that comment?

If Biden did NOT hear this remark himself in a fancy Washington restaurant, he should have made that more clear.

And on re-reading what Biden said in his story, what's with this "spoke with a lisp" stuff?!?

Talk about perpetuating anti-gay stereotypes.

[George II]

12. Yes he did. So? There are LOTS of "fancy restaurants" in Washington or any major city....

....that don't necessarily cater to "lobbyists" or "politicians". So why do YOU suggest that either of those two groups were involved as though there was something wrong with it?

As I said, the old tired "lobbyists" and "politicians" talking points. Guess what, it didn't work!

[bluewater]

14. "that don't necessarily cater to "lobbyists" or "politicians" "

"don't necessarily"

"cater to"

I think these are examples of what people refer to as "weasel words" that people use to squirm out of a losing argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

Thank you for the discussion!

[George II]

15. I'll be here for a long time if you want to discuss this further, without the insults. You?

[LanternWaste]

54. Weasel words apply to inferences as well.

Much as the inference you constructed from his statement.

Squirming, indeed.

[Cha]

6. Because you fought to make it happen, marriage equality is the law of the land,

Link to tweet

[qazplm135]

8. only when it's Biden

anyone else, it's legit.

[democratisphere]

9. I hope we are not going to have 17 more months of this petty nonsense

before the elections. Christ people, get your priority straight: Defeat drumpf.

[melman]

13. So is he saying this from personal experience?

Did he hear such a joke within the last five years and say nothing about it?

[wyldwolf]

16. 1. Why does that matter? 2. You just made an asinine assumption

Why does it matter if it's from personal experience? As recently as five years ago we were still seeing gay jokes on a lot of TV shows. We still see them today.

Why would you even make the leap to he said "nothing about it?"

[melman]

21. I didn't make any assumptions

asinine or otherwise. If he's going to offer an anecdote like this it's reasonable to ask how he knows.

And why does it matter? Seriously? I can't even think of how to answer such a question.

[wyldwolf]

23. Yeah, you did, the insinuation was obvious.

[melman]

25. No I didn't

"no one would have said anything" - these are his words. How does he know it to be true?

[FreeState]

31. He doesn't - and as a gay mans this still happens all the time

Let’s not fool ourselves - homophobia hasn’t been eradicated in the last 10 years by any stretch of the imagination. It’s still there.

[Eliot Rosewater]

66. Some folks just want to BASH Democrats whenever they can

Not you

[Drunken Irishman]

17. He didn't say 'I' so I would assume he was just using a blanket example to make a point.

[melman]

22. It doesn't work as a blanket example

Because five years ago was 2014 and that was definitely not okay.

[Drunken Irishman]

24. Unfortunately, for many, it was okay in 2014.

To the broader point, which you refuse to acknowledge (maybe out of pettiness, I do not know) is to showcase the substantial progress we've seen as a country in a very short time. There's a reason that line, delivered at a HRC event, drew applause - because many in that crowd have experienced the drastic change over the last decade.

[Beartracks]

28. Didn't say it was okay, just said no one would have said anything.

He didn't elaborate as to what the people who didn't speak up were actually thinking.

Now, today, according to his anecdote, they have the courage to speak up, and that is progress and a good thing.

======

[George II]

48. Maybe where you are but in many parts of the country it WAS okay, in fact....

Last edited Mon Jul 1, 2019, 02:34 PM - Edit history (1)

....it's still okay with a lot of people.

[melman]

29. He's told this story more than once before

And in an earlier version he does put himself at the table.






https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2014/07/16/joe-biden-suggests-his-obama-administration-legacy-is-same-sex-marriage

[betsuni]

40. Oh, melman. A group of businesswomen and men. Biden is a politician.

He does not put himself at the table.

"Because, as Biden put it .... the consensus would have been that it's OK to make fun of someone who is gay." Not a personal anecdote. But you knew that.

[melman]

41. oh, betsuni

He most certainly does. But you knew that.

[betsuni]

42. Where does he say: "I was at a table with business people 15 years ago ... ."

Could you please provide a link?

[melman]

44. How else does he know

that "a waiter with a distinct lisp came up and asked for their order and someone said, 'Well let me tell you what I'd like,'" Biden said, feminizing his voice and pretending to be a restaurant patron picking on the waiter."


Are you suggesting this is all made up and he employed that stereotype to make the story go over better?

Because let me tell you, that doesn't make it a whole lot better.

[betsuni]

46. "It's not good enough for somebody to say, 'Hey, I'm a Latina, vote for me.'"

"It is not good enough for somebody to say 'I'm a woman, vote for me'... ." How does Bernie Sanders know that someone said "Hey, I'm a Latina, vote for me" or "I'm a woman, vote for me." Where was this and when and who? Maybe it was all made up and he employed that stereotype to make the story go over better.

[tonedevil]

65. Senator Sanders...

disqualifying himself by saying stupid stuff isn't mutually exclusive of VP Biden doing the same.

[melman]

68. lol

The ever popular 'but what about BERNIE!1!'

[betsuni]

70. ...

[ehrnst]

69. .....

[LanternWaste]

55. I dig how you apply nuance to all candidates butt Biden.

In regards to Biden however, you certainly deny in his words any and all but your own narrative.

Very cool.

[Cha]

43. Unreal.. somebody's working

hard but it's not going so well.

[betsuni]

45. As usual.

[George II]

49. He DOESN'T put himself at the table. Where/how did he do that?

[Vegas Roller]

50. The font is not very big ... to convince

0.000000001% more people, it needs to be 8 times the size.

[George II]

33. Send his campaign an email and ask him. He said it wasn't a joke so....

...why are you calling it a joke here?

[Cha]

36. Give it up, melman..

you're not getting anywhere.

Link to tweet

Your concern is duly noted.

[melman]

38. Give what up?

And where is it you think I'm trying to get?

[Vegas Roller]

51. Biden bashing is quite transparent nt

[LanternWaste]

56. "Give what up?" An absurd and failed narrative.

"And where is it you think I'm trying to get?"

Again, to an absurd and failed narrative.

[melman]

67. How so?

How are those sentences "absurd and false narratives"?

[Vegas Roller]

39. Isn't that speculative innuendo?

Does that help Senator BS?

Ooops .. my apologies .. you're undecided.

[emulatorloo]

53. your choice: fabricate a story about Biden, or write a positive thread about your candidates

I know you can move beyond all this negative campaigning and give DU’ers important arguments about how your candidates are best suited for the presidency.

[Turin_C3PO]

18. I'm the first to admit

that Biden has made a few gaffes and needs tighter messaging. But this isn’t a gaffe, he’s giving an honest observation. It gets better every year but there’s still plenty of homophobes.

[Drunken Irishman]

19. All I can say is that the year Obama-Biden won, California voted to ban gay marriage.

California - arguably the most liberal state in the country - voted to ban it barely ten years ago.

Barely four years ago, the Supreme Court ruled it was legal.

We've seen so much progress in such a short amount of time.

[Turin_C3PO]

20. Yes we have.

I think I saw a recent poll that said 67% of Americans are ok with gay marriage. That’s a hell of an improvement from what it was not too long ago.

[guillaumeb]

27. He correctly pointed out that attitudes might be slowly changing. eom

[Karadeniz]

30. I guess I'm dense. To me, he's just explaining that our culture is changing and for the better.

[shanny]

34. A year ago his wasn't officially running for president. eom

[still_one]

35. It was only a few weeks ago there were posts "snickering" about Lindsey Graham supposedly being gay,

as though his being gay mattered?

I guess among some, perhaps here at DU, it might be considered "ok"

[George II]

60. As much as I don't like Graham, those posts infuriated me, and thankfully almost all were removed.

[still_one]

61. same here George, but my point was that some people thought it was ok, and that wasn't 5 years ago

and some of those people I suspect self-identify as "progressive" to boot

[George II]

62. Right. Some people (even here) STILL think it's okay to joke about things like that. Sad.

[still_one]

63. Exactly

[Cha]

37. "Pouncing" is definitely the

correct word. And, Pathetic is another one.

[cwydro]

47. "Spoke with a lisp?"

What the everloving fuck?

Alex, I’ll take gay stereotypes for 500.

Unreal.

[Autumn]

52. I think going back to the 70's is fair game. Precedence has been set. nt

[loyalsister]

57. He's running on his record

It's fair to scrutinize it if he's going to tell us it's part of his argument for why we should support him. His campaign/ supporters can't have it both ways. Brag about it as what makes him the best candidate and turn around and say it's unfair to talk about it.

[tonedevil]

64. Isn't it getting talked about now...

because VP Biden said it recently in Seattle? The same reason his work against busing is getting mentioned he brought up working with Senator Eastland and his work with Eastland was to oppose busing. Maybe he could find some new stories?