Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumWhat Some Democratic Socialists of America See in Bernie
An opportunity to build a truly socialist party!
Whatever the details of his program may mean to us, to the rest of the world, the Bernie Sanders campaign will be a referendum on socialist politics in the United States. It is a litmus test about whether a left program can be a viable project in this country.
If we fail, if we cannot win the 13 million Bernie votes of 2016 and go beyond them, this unique historical window will close. The name Bernie Sanders will be used like Ralph Naders: as an invocation of why left-wing politics are fundamentally unsuited to Americans.
By participating in the Bernie movement, we can multiply our forces, meet and build relationships with people who can run as socialist candidates at every level, plug into Labor For Bernie work to overcome the separation between labor and socialists, and transform DSA into something rooted in neighborhoods and workplaces of all kinds.
https://www.dsausa.org/weekly/a-dialogue-should-dsa-endorse-bernie-sanders-before-the-convention/
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
TwilightZone
(25,473 posts)Snip
"We will find that we have created an organizational culture dominated by illusions of influencing or capturing the Democratic Party, rather than developing strategies for the destruction of the two-party system and the overthrow of capitalism."
Snip
"Supporting Bernie 2020 means jeopardizing our future as an organization angry at the Democratic Party, furious at the two-party system, and hating capitalism and imperialism. Lets keep our hope, but lets also keep our anger. "
Good luck overthrowing capitalism. That's a non-starter in our current political environment. No one, including Bernie, is running as an anti-capitalist, for good reason.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can.
But if you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be
All right, all right, all right
You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know it's gonna be
All right, all right, all right
All right, all right, all right
All right, all right, all right
All right, all right
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
kennetha
(3,666 posts)But one thing they agree on. Capitalism has got to go and cannot be tamed.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Hes just pretending not to be one so he can get the Democratic nomination. Pure bait and switch flimflam. Dont fall for it
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
brush
(53,815 posts)I'm a Democrat and don't intend to play along with repugs labveling our party as socialists who favor the state owning the means of production.
Now if you want to go with social democrat as in western European countries that are thriving, capitalist societies highly regulated and taxed to provide generous social programs such as universal healthcare and free college, then we can talk.
Words, as elections, have consequences.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
redstatebluegirl
(12,265 posts)If his supporters would rather have Trump than vote for another Democrat we do have issues.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
calimary
(81,421 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Squinch
(50,989 posts)That's all I need to see.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
TwilightZone
(25,473 posts)Some of the comments in that discussion make it quite clear that they don't agree.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Sanders is trying to hijack the Democratic Party plain and simple. Hes a life long Socialist pretending not to be able to tell the difference between socialism and new deal liberalism and you, my friend, have swallowed the con hook line and sinker!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)Liberal Democrats need to resist the attempts to take over our party.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)Sanders version of Democratic Socialism, or whatever you choose to call it, is based on tax funded social benefits instead of social ownership of the means of production.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)Words have meanings. The ideology of "Democratic Socialism" is well established and well defined.
Capitalism with generous social benefits is NOT "Democratic Socialism."
Sen. Bernard Sanders (I-Vt) seems intent on conflating liberal Social Democracy with "Democratic Socialism." He is either very confused or simply being dishonest.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Mr Tibbs
(539 posts)It's called a "Mixed Economy". Nothing complex or sinister about it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)Social Democracy and "Democratic Socialism are two very different political ideologies.
Even a guy like Sen. Bernard Sanders (I-Vt) knows the difference.
Bill
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
kennetha
(3,666 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
TwilightZone
(25,473 posts)https://www.dsausa.org/weekly/a-dialogue-should-dsa-endorse-bernie-sanders-before-the-convention/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
kennetha
(3,666 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BannonsLiver
(16,434 posts)Americans don't do nuance -- AT ALL. And if you're explaining you're losing.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)...the argument against endorsing him states that Sanders isn't a real Socialist.
Meanwhile, you've got Sanders and others conflating the Nordic Model with Socialism. Those who do so have completely shot themselves in the foot with an epic branding error.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
kennetha
(3,666 posts)But he is one. He knows what socialism is and isnt. He isnt conflating anything with anything. Hes just dishonest and manipulative. Hes trying to hijack our party by stealth. Both sides of the DSA see what hes doing. One side thinks he can succeed; the other thinks he cant. But they both see the game hes playing.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)My point was that the DSA obviously feels differently.
Anyway, one would think Sanders would understand the difference between Socialism and what he actually advocates, and maybe he does, but he praises the Nordic Model (most definitely not Socialism) and isn't advocating for Government control over the means of production. Aligning himself with Democratic Socialism instead of Social Democracy is foolish.
Regardless of Bernie's understanding or lack thereof, there are many who clearly do not understand the difference. Even here at DU we frequently see posts from people who think police and fire and public schools are examples of Socialism.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Its dishonest. Hes a life long socialist. He knows the difference. The dude did a documentary on Eugene Debs, for example. He knows full well what socialism is all about. So why does he do this dishonest thing? Cause he thinks the rest of us democrats are fools who cant see through his game.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
CrossingTheRubicon
(731 posts)made during his decades of working the occasional odd jobs (worst carpenter ever, worst "fiction" writer ever) and it would be an insult to documentary film-makers to call this a "documentary."
Hate to hit on a fine point when you've courageously made the bigger picture arguments well, but as a documentary film-maker who has worked on Oscar and Emmy winning documentaries. I feel compelled to stand up for my craft.
Sen. Bernard Sanders (I-Vt) is a life-long socialist. The record is quite clear. Anyone can roll the tapes of him saying so again and again.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)Most of the party isn't that far left.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
kennetha
(3,666 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
TwilightZone
(25,473 posts)Though, no one seems to really know what that means exactly, even democratic socialists. Or Democratic Socialists.
https://www.npr.org/2018/07/26/630960719/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-democratic-socialists-of-america
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
kennetha
(3,666 posts)That's like saying Christians don't know what christianity means.
Bernie is just playing a bait and swtich con game.
see here;
https://www.democraticunderground.com/128712629
and way too many democrats are buying the con hook line and sinker.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)They may all claim to be talking about the same thing, but they are not. I suspect Sanders is trying to turn a right wing meme against itself. For years they've equated liberalism with socialism and said both were horrible. Liberals ran away from both labels and now we call ourselves progressives. Now Sanders comes along with a very liberal program, and says, "Damn right I'm a socialist bouga, bouga!" And people actually like that, because they want healthcare and a college education and a leader who won't hide from a label.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
kennetha
(3,666 posts)And the Democratic Party:
Bernie has often said that he looks back to Democratic President Franklin D. Roosevelts New Deal for his political model. In fact, FDRs New Deal of the 1930sand more important the economic expansion of World War IIestablished the social compact that saved capitalism. Then, updated in the 1960s by Lyndon B. Johnsons Great Society, it stabilized an increasingly crisis-ridden capitalism for another couple of decades until the Great Recession of 2008. The New Deal and Great Society, of course, were made possible by Americas global economic, political, and military dominance and hegemony by imperialism. The New Deals social Keynesianism morphed into military Keynesianism, which underlay much of American prosperity. That is the essential fact of the original New Deal.
The thing is Bernie is just a con man. Hes no new deal liberal or democratic. Hes trying to steal our party
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)Jeebus H.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
forklift
(401 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
forklift
(401 posts)his tax returns by any chance? Where are they?
#whatishehiding
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
RandySF
(59,094 posts)It's not even working out for Jeremy Corbyn.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
kennetha
(3,666 posts)They also believe in worker cooperatives owning and running factories and shops. Only the really big industries have to be state owned and run
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
RandySF
(59,094 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)This is the problem (along with bashing identity politics) with the DSA and its adherents. They give a bad name to what can be very positive things. Socialism is when the government controls the means of production. Worker cooperatives are pretty much the opposite of Socialism.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
kennetha
(3,666 posts)in fairness to them, Socialists envision many different tools for democratic control of the means of production. Workers cooperatives have deep roots in socialist thinking. They have been thinking and arguing about these things since the 19th century at least. Democratic Socialists recoiled in horror often at the old Soviet overly statist anti-Democratic realization of socialism.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)"Democratic control of the means of production" is much, much different than "State control of the means of production."
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
kennetha
(3,666 posts)You know many different dominations it has, each with its own theology?
Defining socialism isnt some semantic parlor game. Theres a concrete and long history attached, with many different episodes.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)I get that there's a long history. When one definition completely contradicts another, that becomes a bit of a problem.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
David__77
(23,456 posts)Its a big tent party.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Bernie is the only one there is even a ghost of a chance that they would support. There is almost not chance that they would support, as a party, any of the rest of our candidates. Some individuals might. Some chapters maybe. But not the DSA as a corporate body.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BannonsLiver
(16,434 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided