The term "boy" when referring to a black man is considered a racial epithet

[Indygram]

That is why people are/were upset about what Biden said. It's not about him talking about working with Republicans or segregationists in the past. He wasn't even quoting the segregationists when he used the term. Again...the criticism is NOT over him working with people he doesn't agree with. People KNOW Biden is not racist as well. That doesn't change the fact that he used a very hurtful and racially charged term. When Cory Booker, a black man, pointed that out Biden made matters worse by demanding that Booker apologize to him.

If Biden didn't understand how upsetting and hurtful this term is then he should just say that, learn from it and if anyone should apologize it should be him, and then move on.

Again, the term "boy" in the context Biden used it is a racial slur. It's often interchangeable with the n-word.
Now, imagine that Biden used the n-word instead of "boy" and ask yourself it would still not be anything to be bothered by. I think everyone knows this was not Biden's intent. What is troublesome is that he doesn't seem to understand what he did wrong and doesn't seem interested in finding out. That's why it's not being let go.

On Edit to clarify even further: No, Biden was NOT trying to use "boy" in a racially hurtful way. He was using it while talking about working with a segregationist who WOULD have used it as a racial slur. It wasn't an actual quote, so Biden just should not have even used the term at all.

Boy
In most situations, the word "boy" is not a problem. Used to describe an African American man, however, the word is troublesome. That's because historically whites routinely described black men as boys to suggest African Americans weren't on equal footing with them. Both during and after slavery, African Americans weren't viewed as full-fledged people but as mentally, physically, and spiritually inferior beings to whites. Calling black men "boys" was one way to express the racist ideologies of yesteryear.

Despite its widespread use as a racial putdown, in Ash v. Tyson Foods, the U.S. Court of Appeals decided that "boy" cannot be considered a racial slur unless it's prefaced with a racial marker such as "black." This decision has sparked controversy, considering that whites typically didn't call African American "black boys" during Jim Crow, but simply "boys."

The good news, according to Prerna Lal of Change.org, is that the U.S. Supreme Court reversed the holding, ruling "that the use of the word 'boy' on its own is not enough evidence of racial animus, but that the word is also not benign." That means the court is willing to consider the context in which "boy" is used to determine if it's being uttered as a racial epithet.

https://www.thoughtco.com/terms-many-dont-know-are-racist-2834522

[Honeycombe8]

1. Biden is well known for making gaffes. There will be many more.

If people go apoplectic over each one, they're going to get exhausted.

[marylandblue]

7. Yes, they will go apoplectic over many of them, and

it can sink his campaign. He has to prevent them from being used against him. Trump can get away with gaffes and he can't.

That's because Trump has a media strategy that he uses each time. He throws up a mess of confusion, distractions, lies, denials and admissions until people are all in a frenzy and then he changes the subject.

Biden doesn't have a media strategy for gaffes. He needs one and he can't use Trump's because that method only works for malignant narcissists.

[mainstreetonce]

2. I took Joe to mean

This racist person called people boy,but he called me son.

He obviously knows boy has racist connotations.
He is saying the racist person used it,just not on him.

[BeckyDem]

3. He is white. It made no sense to even bring it up.

[Drunken Irishman]

8. Yes it does. This senator often referred to young members as boys.

Ted Kennedy wrote about it extensively in his book about being referred to as boy.

[BeckyDem]

17. Who was the term boy meant for and its meaning by this senator?

Biden brings up a moment where there is none to recall with praise. His usage suggests the senator was respectful to him, he is WHITE. He needed to not relive this moment, that is his problem, not that anyone sees him as racist.

His anti-busing were bad enough. All he has to do is talk about NOW, imho, are his policies for the future.


Joe Biden's letters to segregationist Sen. James O. Eastland

Updated Jun 20, 2019 at 9:28 PM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/joe-biden-s-letters-to-segregationist-sen-james-o-eastland/705b015f-bd0a-4d7d-84e5-88960d5667a7/?utm_term=.c9f9e1ac4c92#page=25?tid=a_inl_manual

[Drunken Irishman]

20. It's pretty clear what Biden meant.

This senator spoke dismissively to other younger ones by referring them to boys. Sen. Kennedy even wrote about how Eastland would constantly refer to him as boy, too. The idea Biden somehow said something racist pr inferred something racist is absolutely idiotic.

[BeckyDem]

21. Kennedy and Biden are WHITE.

That is the important distinction. I already said no one thinks he is racist. People quite possibly believe he has tremendous difficulty expressing what he thinks in a coherent fashion. Thus Booker's request for an apology.

How many more times will he need to be bailed out? I guess we'll find out in the near future.

[Drunken Irishman]

30. Thank you.

You're right. It's clear Biden wasn't even thinking race on this since both he and Kennedy, as well as many others were white.

[zentrum]

36. That's the problem.

He wasn't even thinking about race.

Only very privileged white people haven't noticed how the word "boy" is freighted in this culture.

That's how White Male Privilege Syndrome works. They are always "nice guys", always "innocent". Never "mean any harm". Because they don't have to know. Don't have to notice.

It's almost 2020. Time's up.

[Drunken Irishman]

41. lol

It's funny because I'm sure you'd roll your eyes if the other Democrats used Warren's DNA flub in a similar fashion. It's almost 2020! We're tired of white people appropriating other cultures.

[zentrum]

66. No. Actually...

.....was quite upset with her. And let her know it. She's addressed it. She at least seems to get it now.

Isn't it nice when members of the dominant culture start to evolve?

Joe doesn't seem to quite get it yet or to perceive the dimensions of the problem with his statements and behavior.

Still not happy that Warren was so opportunistic years ago. But she doesn't keep doing things in many different venues that echo that original unawareness.

Her behavior of course has nothing to do with holding old uncle Joe to the task of waking up.

[floppyboo]

22. what did he mean when he [called] edit inferred Rev. Barber boy earlier this week?

Last edited Fri Jun 21, 2019, 09:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Barber obviously didn't appreciate it. Have you seen that clip from the Poor People's Campaign? Barber cringed when Biden approached to touch him again. And then the eye roll.
It was very uncomfortable to watch.

edit: He didn't directly call him boy. But he sure did include Barber, through his handsy moves, in the alter call from the old boys.
That's how I see it. I can't unsee it.

[Drunken Irishman]

31. What are you saying?

Are you saying Biden was openly being racist to Rev. Barber?

[floppyboo]

48. I seriously am not sure I know where unconsious and just deaf behaviour divides

you judge for yourself. I suppose your interpretation of any encounter depends on your sensitivity.

[Drunken Irishman]

50. Nice edit after your blatant lie...

[floppyboo]

53. That's a new definition of lie. It was, and still is, my interpretation.

[Drunken Irishman]

58. You lied.

Your exact post before the edit:

what did he mean when he called Rev. Barber boy earlier this week?

Biden never once called Rev. Barber a boy.

[floppyboo]

67. nope. That's what I heard. Still hear. Wasn't a quote. Was what I heard

How do you interpret what he said and how he said it, specifically the physical language attached to the words? How do you explain it? I can be persuaded to change my mind, but no one has countered my interpretation so far. Just attacks on my perception.
edit: Maybe you can provide some framework? Maybe 'the alter call' to 'the old boys' means something i am not aware of?

[Drunken Irishman]

69. Just own up to the lie.

You clearly know you lied or you wouldn't have edited your post. Biden never called Barber a boy. You can't provide one quote where he did. Therefore, you lied.

[floppyboo]

71. Have you watched the video?

[Drunken Irishman]

73. Can you provide the quote where he called him boy?

If you stand by your claim, why the edit?

[floppyboo]

75. see my post 37.

there is no transcript, so you'll have to listen yourself, or go by post 37 as best as I can do for you at the moment.

edit: I edited my title, as I realized that, as I hadn't used quotes, I should explain to people reading who may have missed that important intentional omission that I wasn't direct quoting, and added inferred as that is more accurate. not trying to hide or lie. I left the original in the title so people could see my update. I should think that would suffice. Of course, if you think it would be better for me to make this an OP with my best effort transcript, I could do that too.

[Drunken Irishman]

76. So he didn't call him boy. Got it.

[floppyboo]

77. no, not directly. He included him in the group of 'old boys'. so by inference

he called him boy. That's my interpretation. For instance, if we were at a group picnic, and some one came up to me, while addressing the group at large, put his hand on my arm while saying "you can always count on the ladies to cook up some good casserole" I think I would be right in inferring that that person was referring to me as a lady who cooks. We won't get into the rage that this feminist feels at that kind of generalization. I don't cook casserole.

Do you get what I mean now?

[Drunken Irishman]

78. Thanks for clarifying he didn't call him boy.

[zentrum]

32. Are you saying that Biden

....called Rev. Barber "boy"?

Do you have the link for the encounter?

[floppyboo]

37. Not directly. But judge the reaction yourself.

It was posted here earlier by someone else. But again:
20:36 - when Biden puts his hand on Barber and says something like "when they started taking away the ACA you had what we call [edit in southern Delaware] an alter call from all the old boys" - Biden then approaches Barber again (21:00) and he pulls back, feints fiddling with his mic to avoid another encounter. Eye roll follows

[redstateblues]

40. It's the insinuation. Very sleazy.

[floppyboo]

49. Biden's? I wasn't impying that.

[Kurt V.]

33. Right. why did he even go there?

[BeckyDem]

38. Damned if I know, made no sense.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

42. Exactly!! Just imagine if Bernie had said this!!

There would be no end to the calls for Bernie to withdraw from the race.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[BannonsLiver]

70. So much woe.

[emulatorloo]

102. Bernie makes a lot of gaffes too

You may remember the one where he said Florida voters who wouldn’t vote for an AA candidate were “not necessarily racists.”

You and I know Bernie did not mean it the way it sounded. He got a little flak for it for a few days, and then it was forgotten.

I wish DU and the MSM would acknowledge that Biden like Bernie is not a racist. This really seems manufactured to me.

[robbedvoter]

4. As a white man, he could be "son" not boy

Just as he thinks he can work with Rs when Obama couldn't. Same reason

[Triloon]

11. oh I dont know, I've been called boy

by employers and property owners I was working for. When I was in my 30s, full grown white male. It's a demeaning remark, meant to reinforce the boundaries of class lines. It's not only a racial thing. But it sure has that plantation sound to it.

[Indygram]

18. It's disrespectful either way...but white men have a much different experience and reality

Than black men do. White men don't typically get treated like a criminal and less than for just going about their daily lives.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

43. Yes... goes without saying.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[Triloon]

47. But the use of 'Boy' the way Biden was discussing it

was not referencing black people. He was talking about the southern authoritarians abusive term that is directed at any male of any race in order to demean them and keep them 'in their place'. Joe's remarks will be confusing as long as you think white men don't get called Boy in a derogatory sense. But they always have.
If 'boy' can be used to replace the N word in any case, and it can, then its use carries the same toxic disrespect when used against a white male. In other words - If you think a black man has a different internal experience than I do when someone in authority tries to get his attention by shouting "Boy!" then you're making a hell of a big assumption.
"Son" is kinder and gentler, but it means the same thing. The southern senator called Joe Son instead of Boy not because Joe is white, but because he was also a senator, which was Joes whole point.

[tonedevil]

56. When Biden has told this story in the past...

he has said he never called me Senator, he always called me son. It is a lot cleaner and clearer which is probably why this story has not brought such controversy as it did this time.

[TwilightZone]

25. He called Ted Kennedy and others "boy" as well.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287159970

[Indygram]

10. Like I said in my OP...I don't think ANYONE thinks Joe is a racist OR

that he meant it in a degrading way.

The problem is that is was just entirely inappropriate to even bring it up or use it. If he were speaking of a specific incident where "boy" was used, then maybe...but he just threw it in there. The fact that he did so and then is completely clueless as to why many found it offensive and got defensive and demanded a black person who spoke up apologize...that just added insult to injury.

In all honestly, it may have blown over by now if people just acknowledged he made a mistake in his choice of words and moved on. His defensiveness is what keeps it alive. This tendency of his is why I don't think he is the best one to go up against Trump. Defensiveness makes for easy prey for a narcissist like Trump.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

44. It's called an unforced error... why even say it?!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

52. No question... Joe needs to apologize and fast!!

I predict he will by tomorrow... he's too politically smart not to.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[tonedevil]

14. Which seems like an odd way to acknowledge your white privilege. /nt

[stonecutter357]

5. let's go Joe ! John Lewis backs Biden:

[LincolnRossiter]

6. I say it's simple enough to throw down the gauntlet...

If you think Biden is racist, as a simple matter of principle you shouldn't vote for him and should oppose him at every turn.

If this is "gotcha" bullcrap because he's the frontrunner and you support another candidate, just say that. Look at what's on the other side of the aisle and tell me with a straight face that the democratic primary needs to be decided by nitpicking words and being overly sensitive about something so trivial. Consider his broader point.

[Indygram]

12. I don't think you read my original post because I said clearly no one thinks Biden is racist

I am simply explaining WHY he is being criticized over what happened because most people are getting that part entirely wrong.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

45. It's very clear what you said... not that it matters when it comes to twisting words.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[emmaverybo]

9. Sorry. As per another thread, the senator called younger white guys son or boy to put them in their

place. He called Ted Kennedy boy, but Biden son.
Where do you think the racial epithet came from? From a rural Southernism in which to express a hierarchal relationship difference, fathers called their sons “boys,” employees, those lesser in stature, age, or experience.
Of course then, it was especially offensive and demeaning beyond words when used with adult black males.
In the context of Biden’s story, he was not referencing the senator’s use of racial epithet, but his common habit of calling fellow white senators, younger guys, with less experience by one or the other term.

[Indygram]

15. You don't get to decide who is or is not offended by "boy"

eom

[emmaverybo]

24. They can be offended based on their interpretation. They are free to deconstruct any speech,

piece of writing, action, or historical event, leaving out “givens”—an author’s intention,
cultural or historical context, consensual understandings about language, conventional usage even.

That is the essence of deconstruction, from which new meanings and interesting perspectives arise.

They can choose to deconstruct and then to reconstruct their own version of Biden’s story.

They can present a staged version, costuming Biden in a white sheet and hood.

That is the essence of deconstruction.

[TwilightZone]

27. Nor do you.

If anyone being subjected to it as a term of derision finds it offensive, advising them that they don't fit whatever parameters one has decided should apply would be rather misguided.

[Indygram]

34. Nor am I

I'm simply explaining why some people are upset because some people seem to be confused.

[tonedevil]

16. Since Biden and his campaign...

have not addressed the son-boy aspect we are left with speculation as to why he said it and what he meant. The Senator Kennedy story is interesting and could even be the explanation for the odd construct Biden used. He has told this story in the past though and when he did he said he never called me Senator, he always called me son. That is clear and effective. The other just muddles the message and since he has used the much better construction in the past I'm pretty sure his mouth didn't make the sounds he meant for it to make.

[Indygram]

19. Agreed

He should have clarified instead of demanding Booker apologize, which just made the whole thing ten times worse.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

46. Joe stepped in it again, big time... he needs to step UP and apologize.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[madville]

84. Booker has zero chance at the nomination

Joe shouldn't have even acknowledged him from a political standpoint.

[Skya Rhen]

26. You always, always make so much sense. Thank you!

[a kennedy]

13. My white husband hates what I say "atta boy" when he does something good or great.....

he hates it, and I’m still trying to quit saying it. Have said it all my life to my friends, my brothers, and my husband, I am really trying to quit saying it.

[left-of-center2012]

23. Next week Biden haters will have yet another issue

The 'circular firing squad' keeps shooting,
and will wound whomever our nominee will be.

"The beat goes on, the beat goes on
Drums keep pounding a rhythm to the brain
La de da de de, la de da de da"

[redstateblues]

29. Joe didn't call anyone "boy". All the backers of the 2% candidates are trying to make hay

Give it up. I gave your guy Beto $ for his failed Senatorial run and $ for his roll out. Beto has been very disappointing. Trying to ramp up you numbers with this is pitiful

[Indygram]

35. I didn't say he called anyone "boy"

Perhaps you should go back and read what I actually wrote.

[redstateblues]

39. The insinuations speak volumes

It's very artful, the way that Biden is somehow in league with the segregationists. It's never spoken but the intent to smear is there. Bidens record on civil rights dwarfs your guy, who I like. It pains me to see Beto in desperation mode.

[Indygram]

59. Oh for the love of Christ...my intent is to try to help those who don't get it understand WHY

this became an issue.

I'm not doing it to "smear" anyone, and thanks for the baseless accusation. My real motivation...I work all day long and come to this site looking for something interesting to read and there are 10-15 threads about segregationists this, segregationists that, etc. I'd like to see more threads about actual issues. I'm seriously considering just setting a filter to trash anything related to Biden because I am just so tired of the distraction from things that matter.

[Demsrule86]

64. There is no deep meaning in this attack...the 'why' is losing candidates want to improve their

situation...it reeks of desperation.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

51. Yeah, like THAT is gonna happen!! A response SHOULD be based on what you said, but...

it's SO much easier to win an argument based on what they say you said, as this thread bears out.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[redstateblues]

57. its a pretty obvious that it's an attempt at a smear. Epic fail

If I were you I’d be more concerned about your hero cratering. Bernie could win the General but not the primary. It’s the opposite with Warren, who I like. She could win the nomination but not the General. It’s got to be frustrating.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

60. At least Bernie & Elizabeth can win something... so, thanks for that, I guess.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[emmaverybo]

54. Biden was not even talking about the senator calling black males boy. He was referencing his

historical use of boy or son for younger, inexperienced WHITE senators like himself and Ted Kennedy.

[Iliyah]

55. History.

"Girl". "Boy".

[treestar]

61. He was referring to someone else using it, something that happened in his life

It would be denying reality. This is really a stretch. You're saying it is hurtful to refer to the fact that the term was so used. Is it hurtful to use the term "slave?" This is getting just absurd. That is like whitewashing as if it never happened. How can it be "hurtful" to discuss historical fact? I could see it if he used it that way, but geez. It is like supporters of other candidates are getting really desperate. And why can't they tell us why those candidates should win, rather than why other candidates should lose? They are telling me their candidates can't really win on their own merits.

[Indygram]

62. Replace "boy" with the n-word since they are used the same way

And then try to make your same argument.

It doesn't matter if he was talking about someone else using an offensive word if the word is still offensive.

[treestar]

72. That's just getting so out there

If we can't talk about what happened in the past for such a reason. And what if he is the nominee and people have worked themselves up against him? Why can't the other nominees and their supporters argue FOR themselves rather than attack another candidate?

[Indygram]

79. It's not "talking about what happened in the past" that was/is the issue

It is the use of the term "boy," when referring to a segregationist using it towards others. From those who Biden was referring to, the word "boy" is the same as using the n-word. THAT is why people are upset. It's very, very simple.

I'm done explaining it. This thread was intended to help people understand why people won't let it go. People will either choose to listen and understand why using "boy" was so offensive or they can keep arguing over it for the rest of the primary election. I'm fine with him choosing not to fix it because I don't think he's the strongest option anyhow.

[treestar]

89. That is very extreme

Biden was talking ABOUT it. And someone else using it. No wonder you find it tough to explain. And it is not the same as the n word, give me a break, isn't that the worst of all?

Please inform us of why Beto should be President. That would be more persuasive.

[Demsrule86]

63. In the South where I started life ...in Virginia...Boy was applied to Black and White men...son was

a term of respect and affection...and since Biden didn't call anyone boy...you have no point really...he was saying you could have a respectful working relationship with even the worst...and I say if you can't learn to work together and it may not be possible with this group of Republicans than nothing gets done...we have to try and maybe we can use it against GOP types if they don't try also. This is getting no traction which makes me happy as I remain convinced that only Biden can rebuild the blue wall and win the general. And the attacks leveled against Biden are transparently nakedly desperate moves from candidates who have little shot at winning a primary and no chance of winning a general. I will vote for whoever is the nominee...let's hope this person has not been damaged by attacks from our side.

[Indygram]

65. replace the word "boy" with the n-word

And then perhaps you and others will understand why people were offended.

It doesn't matter if you call someone the n-word. Just using it is hurtful.

If he didn't realize that, fine...if you didn't intend something the way it was received...fine...just say "whoops, didn't mean it that way! My bad!" and move on. It's his defensiveness that gets him into trouble, and it's the very trait that makes him very easy prey for a narcissist like Trump.

[Skya Rhen]

68. When Eastman called Senator Ted Kennedy "boy" was he calling him "n****er?

Biden was speaking in the context of the SENATE - about his experience with other SENATORS. Kennedy was a Senator and Eastland called him "boy" instead of Senator because he thought himself superior to Kennedy.


Please convince me that he was calling Kennedy a ni**er.


We are more intelligent than this - context is everything. If people want to pretend as if Biden was not talking in the context of the Senate, but was referring to the cotton field, then I cry shame on them.

***************************************************************************************************

https://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/local/dailyledes/2015/09/30/ted-kennedy-big-jim-eastland-drinking-scotch/73114062/


Snip...
Kennedy told the story to his interviewer, calling himself “an amusement to Eastland.”
Here’s the transcript of the Eastland portion of the interview:

Eastland said, “I want you to come over, boy. We’ll talk about your subcommittees.” I said, “That’s fine. When do you want me to come?” “You come by tomorrow morning at ten, and we’ll talk about your subcommittees.” I said, “Okay, I’ll come over.” We had been working all day and night, what committees I want and what committees I don’t want and why. I had all my staff around, and I finally had my little list.

[emmaverybo]

80. Brilliant and in such few words. I can only marvel. By the way, I find the discussion topic title

instructive, a breathless declaration that alerts me to what I might otherwise not understand
about Biden's anecdote. LOL 😂

[Demsrule86]

99. Biden called no one 'boy'...so I miss your point...as for the N word my Virginian Mom would have

washed my mouth out with soap...we were never allowed to use such words. My parents were liberal and really did march with King.

[cwydro]

74. Yes, I dont mind him talking about working with the other side, but the "boy" comment...

That was beyond stupid. He surely must have advisors that tell him these things???

That said; I like Biden, and I hope he avoids future missteps.

[marylandblue]

81. What scares me is that his advisers did tell him not to use the story but he didn't listen

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-faces-backlash-over-comments-about-the-civility-of-his-past-work-with-racist-senators/2019/06/19/c0375d2a-92a8-11e9-b58a-a6a9afaa0e3e_story.html?utm_term=.bc1474f91f2f

...Aides said they had urged Biden to find a less toxic example.

“It might move him to pick a different senator,” said one adviser, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations. “But he’s not someone you can go to and just say, ‘You’ve been doing this x number of years and you can’t do this anymore.’?”...

[tirebiter]

82. Biden was doing Booker a favor

Has Booker moved above 1% yet?

[mr_liberal]

83. I feel bad for Biden that he has to go through this. This is almost not worth it. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

85. And Trump

Refers to black men as sons of bitches, Mexicans as rapists, blocks Muslims from coming to this country - and means every single word.

Let's move on from this.

Yesterday during the fish fry as Warren was starting to speak 45 left the WH for Camp David. NBC cut away then they lost the feed - right back to intelligence and truth.

It was a thing of beauty to see that s.o.b. shut up.

Biden told the truth. There were racists in Congress then, there are foaming at the mouth racists in Congress now - he managed to work with them.

In an ideal world in 2020 the President will be a Democratic, the Senate will be Democratic - but face it -


That racist piece of shit McConnell will still be sitting there. Hopefully with a strong majority we can work around him - but after saying Obama was reparations AFTER his statement that his job was to make him a one term President?

I actually took Biden's statement as truth then . . . And truth now.

[Kind of Blue]

86. I'm in agreement with this article's conclusion.

In short, black voters care about “electability” too — and that is likely benefitting Biden, at least at this stage of the campaign. Lots of polls have found a majority of Democrats are prioritizing beating Trump over issues and policy. That includes black voters. The firm Avalanche Strategy, in data provided to FiveThirtyEight, found that about a quarter of black voters would prefer a different 2020 candidate than the one that they currently favor if they could wave a “magic wand” and just make the person president without him or her having to win the primary or the general election. That share is about the same for Latino and non-Hispanic white voters.

It’s hard to predict what will happen to Biden’s standing in the wake of this week’s news. But I think it’s increasingly clear that the way we think about racial controversies (with the implication that minorities are particularly triggered by them) and the black vote (assuming it is fairly monolithic) are off. Biden’s positive mentions of his work with segregationist senators may have annoyed nonblack Democrats as much or more than black ones. And the biggest question is not whether it pulls all black people from Biden — the younger ones are already kind of ambivalent about him — but whether it breaks his bond with older black people.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-will-bidens-latest-comments-affect-his-standing-in-the-democratic-primary/

Just waiting for the debates

[marylandblue]

87. I think focusing on the black issue misses the real problem with Biden.

The problem is that he gaffes a lot then does poor damage control. This time it's a racial issue, next time it will be something else. Eventually he may either say something totally inexcusable (even if he didn't mean it), or the accumulated weight of badly managed gaffes may drag him down.

[Kind of Blue]

88. Yes, that was the interesting thing about the article.

Though I focused on the black issue, their polling shows that black and white dems are closer in feelings about racism and not to "assume this controversy cuts along purely black-white lines." And though his popularity with black voters is large, "He leads more narrowly, and sometimes trails, among white Democrats," and that can't just be on racial issues alone. But, as you said, "the accumulated weight of badly managed gaffes may drag him down."

[emmaverybo]

90. Makes it more amazing then that Obama considered him such a good VP. How did Biden manage

to become one of the more powerful VPs historically, one to whom Obama entrusted a number of important duties?
He sent Biden to Iraq eight times to handle all that complicated sectarian conflict. Turned to him to get support for the Recovery Act, negotiate in the debt ceiling crisis with congress, revive the VAWA, manage gun control bill...
He relied on his advice and support in all matters of state.
And Obama kept Joe on for eight years!
Obama was a dead serious president who knew exactly what was going on in his
administration.
You would think he wouldn't have let him out of his office if he was such a gaffing liability.

[marylandblue]

91. He is known to gaffe a lot. He says so himself. Doesn't mean he has no useful talents.

Last edited Mon Jun 24, 2019, 08:36 AM - Edit history (1)

[emmaverybo]

93. You can't be gaffing your way through Iraq, during tricky negotiations, with huge numbers of

governors and political groups while discussing the Recovery Act, in crisis negotiations on fiscal matters, while making appearances on campuses to talk about rape and domestic violence, and not
at President Obama’s side up to eight hours a day, continuously.
Please.

[marylandblue]

94. I didn't create his reputation, it's well known. Don't pretend it doesn't exist.

He said so himself.

You can get away with gaffes in all sorts of situations. I've watched him speak in front of friendly audiences, he said or did things I thought he should not have, but the audience was friendly and thought it was funny or didn't care, and there was no news report, so nobody cared. When you are running for President (not even VP counts. Quayle was widely know to be a total idiot (I'm not calling Biden one))and it didn't really hurt Bush I. It takes Sarah Palin level mistakes to affect a ticket, and even then, the base loved her.

Remember the whole thing about touching women? I saw him do it before, it was reported on, nobody cared, minor report. But I knew if he ran for President, it would become an issue. Did he? He seemed surprised, but if I knew, why didn't he?

In negotiations, gaffes happen all the time. I've been there. They are either politely ignored, laughed at, or staff immediately corrects it. And Biden is probably better in negotiations, they tend to be more serious and focused. You are not speaking off the cuff or trying to entertain a crowd.

When you are running for President you get a much higher level of scrutiny. Every word and action is dissected. And how you respond to gaffe-based attacks is important too. Trump gets a way with so much because he actually has a sophisticated media strategy for dealing with it, so by now, we are pretty numb to it. Biden doesn't have that luxury.

This really isn't controversial, so don't act like it is. Nobody is perfect. Don't pretend Biden is perfect, or that everything he ever said and did in his entire life will not be under the microscope and used against him unfairly. This is an election against Trump. If this had happened during the general election, you think Trump would not bring it up repeatedly and make it sound worse? What's Biden going to do then? What are marginal voters going to think when Biden is swift-boated, Hillaried, and Gored simultaneously and non-stop? You think the press won't lay off? You think DU can "defend" him? Whoever is the nominee better have a plan for handling that, and it really.seems Biden doesn't. For me that's a big problem that no Obama endorsement or Iraqi negotiations can overcome.

If you think it won't matter in the end, fine, but pretending this doesn't exist is a really bad idea.

[Skya Rhen]

95. So Buttigieg didn't make a gaffe when he told the black protester that he isn't asking for her vote?

It was an offensive gaffe because she took offense. It is her feelings that count, not his intent. And as a black woman, I took offense too. He should not have said those words. Period.

Glass houses...

[marylandblue]

97. Oh, it is a gaffe, but he has much bigger problem, that will likely sink him.

The AA community in South Bend does not trust him. As in so many other places, years of smaller incidents were not properly addressed, no improvements in everyday policing made. If you have a community already upset about those other things, you have no reservoir of good will to draw on when a major incident happens. So they are upset and yelling at him, they are frustrated and he is frustrated.

This will probably kill him with AAs nationwide, unless he comes up with some fancy way out of this, but I don't know if that's possible at all.

No glass houses here. I try to take a very clear-eyed view of all the candidates, particularly how they work with the media and how well they control their messages. Buttigieg is very good at media relations and message control, but AAs are his Achilles Heel and he just took an arrow there.

[emmaverybo]

96. He IS being swift-boated, and any frontrunner will be. I am not making a case for Biden's

perfection. I make the case that he had an excellent reputation as a VP and a public servant over the course of decades.
I understand that what you are addressing is his viability politically.
I can only say that is to be seen.
I do not think any other candidate enjoys Biden’s wide appeal among as wide a number of
potential voters and across voting groups.
I also think he is the best qualified.
How he or any other frontrunner wears during the primaries can not be predicted.
No frontrunner will be immune from attack from both rivals and the RW.
Your assumption that I am “pretending” Biden will not be scrutinized is just that.
You have put words in my mouth, so to speak.

[marylandblue]

98. Sorry, I don't mean to put words in your mouth.

I'm just trying to draw lessons from past elections, particularly 2016, and apply then to 2020. How did inexperienced Trump beat a field of 16 Republicans including well-known, highly competent leaders, plus Clinton? Regarding swift-boating, they tried to do it to Bill Clinton and Obama, how did they survive where others didn't?

I concluded that experience is irrelevant. Both Clinton and Obama defeated better known, more experienced candidates in primaries and general elections.

What matters is having an effective media strategy. Trump is a master at manipulating media both on and off camera. Bill and Obama had their own ways of handling media, they made relatively few mistakes and had ways of handling negative information that put those stories to rest.

Of the candidates we now have, Buttigieg, O'Rourke and Warren have used effective media strategies. Buttigieg may be sunk by the shooting, and I don't think any media strategy can combat that. O'Rourke made some mistakes but I see him learning from his mistakes, so he might recover. Warren is using a disciplined thematic message to get her point across and it seems to be working. We'll see what happens when the inevitable attacks come, but I'm guessing, "she has a plan for that."

I don't see Biden being effective in terms of handling negative information and the media. His message is uncertain (as with the Hyde Amendment), He responds too slowly (took almost a full day to respond to this latest thing) and his response just ended up dragging out longer.

You are right we can't predict the future, but we make educated guesses all the time. Any assessment of "electibility" should include the candidate's media strategy and it's effectiveness. That's my own best guess as to how to win.

I know we both want the same thing.
Cheers.

[emmaverybo]

101. O.K. Fair assessment.

[emmaverybo]

92. Your title suggests you think we don't know that "boy" can be used as a racial epithet. I don't

know how anyone here could not know that.

And I do not see that anyone is disputing that a white man calling a black man “boy” is a disgusting display of racism, abusive, humiliating, and a painful reminder of when it was in wide-spread use during Jim Crow.

In fact, as the Tyson suit shows, racists still use it to bully and taunt black males, to flaunt their own repugnant white supremacist ideology. No question the hideous Tyson boss, who addressed two black male employees with this slur at different times knew what he was doing. That incident happened in the mid-nineties. I believe the white officer in South Bend who shot a black man to death had been accused of using it to verbally assault a black male in a previous complaint.

You do not think Biden knows the word is a racial epithet when a white male uses it to address a black male? I mean for real?

You stack the deck with your title. You assume that Joe willfully referenced a terrible racial slur while relaying an anecdote, nonchalantly, therefore sanctioning its use.

What some of us contend is that Joe did not reference the segregationist senator’s use of it as a racial slur, but in another context when he would put down younger, white senator’s.

I find your title right off ties Biden to a racial epithet and your post goes on to try to confirm his
gross insensitivity tossing it about.

Yes. Context is everything. You misread the context.

[UniteFightBack]

100. EVERYBODY kNOWS WTF boy means and it's usage including Biden so SAVE IT. nt

[emmaverybo]

103. Apparently not. The meaning of words varies according to context, custom, historical use,

tone or inflection, and region.
Take it up with the Supreme Court.