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Did we see this one? I thought it was good. (Original Post) Enthusiast Dec 2015 OP
Health costs shouldn't say free for Canadians. They pay of course. It must be much brewens Dec 2015 #1
The wording like that always bothers me hibbing Dec 2015 #10
Everything is free. So far as I've noticed, nobody owns the human species, or the planet earth. hunter Dec 2015 #17
Nothing's free. All requires labor (intellectual etc). I don't work for free except volunteering. nt Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2015 #19
How much are the tomatoes in my garden worth? hunter Dec 2015 #20
Feel free to walk across the Pacific to China to mine Neodymium to make your own smart phone Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2015 #21
I don't have a smart phone, never hope to have one. Good God, what kind of hell is that? hunter Dec 2015 #26
Yep libodem Dec 2015 #2
Very nice! Enthusiast Dec 2015 #3
+1 daleanime Dec 2015 #8
That's probably THE economic chart the elite don't want the sheeple to see. forest444 Dec 2015 #11
Chart starts in 1970, after US had led wage rises for decades. France & Japan very war damaged Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2015 #18
Good chart. We're also No. 16 in education. News of Canada's No. 1 middle class appalachiablue Dec 2015 #4
Thanks for sharing that excellent article, appalachiablue. Enthusiast Dec 2015 #5
For sure. It's interesting how the article states that Canada has a strong service appalachiablue Dec 2015 #7
DITTO. malokvale77 Dec 2015 #9
There was an excellent post here in the last couple days which I've lost unfortunately appalachiablue Dec 2015 #12
$30 an hour if only one family member works TexasBushwhacker Dec 2015 #16
Factor homegirl Dec 2015 #23
Nice. Wondering about education . . . snot Dec 2015 #6
Hadn't seen that. malokvale77 Dec 2015 #13
By George you're right! Scuba Dec 2015 #14
LOL malokvale77 Dec 2015 #15
Pffft! Enthusiast Dec 2015 #25
Contemptible? That one in particular. Enthusiast Dec 2015 #24
k and r and bookmarking niyad Dec 2015 #22
likewise! Oldtimeralso Dec 2015 #27

brewens

(13,598 posts)
1. Health costs shouldn't say free for Canadians. They pay of course. It must be much
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 04:43 PM
Dec 2015

lower than what we pay though.

hibbing

(10,098 posts)
10. The wording like that always bothers me
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 06:39 PM
Dec 2015

Nothing is free. Free tuition, free medical care and so on. These items are paid for with taxes and in other countries a much more progressive tax structure.


Peace

hunter

(38,318 posts)
17. Everything is free. So far as I've noticed, nobody owns the human species, or the planet earth.
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 11:57 AM
Dec 2015

Money is something we humans invented, hopefully used to insure the fair and just distribution of resources among of us.

Of course, that's not the way it's being used.

Ordinary shoplifters get punished far more than the greatest thieves on earth. Our greatest thieves are celebrated for their manipulations of the monetary system, and burn through earth's resources, manye irreplaceable resources, at a much greater rate than those humans who are merely surviving, maybe not surviving long.

FUCK THIS ECONOMIC SYSTEM. What we now call "economic productivity" is a direct measure of the damage we do to this planet's natural environment and the human spirit. I think the uber-wealthy ought to be taxed out of existence. Some of them ought to be in prison.

We could make money work in a way that was universally beneficial to all, not simply humans, but for all the diverse life we share this planet with, or perhaps we could create another fair and just economic system that uses no money, but were not going to be able to accomplish that when so many people think "money" isn't free, when they think it's something more than it is.

Of course money is free, or nearly so. What's the cost these days of maintaining a few bits in a database? Practically nothing. That's all your money is.






hunter

(38,318 posts)
20. How much are the tomatoes in my garden worth?
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 12:51 PM
Dec 2015

I don't know. I don't sell them, but I might give you some.

Labor does not equal money.

I think to participate in the existing monetary system we have to fight with the people who control big money. The wealthy need to be very afraid of everyone else, that if the wealthy do not treat laborers fairly, that the wealthy will lose their wealth, and possibly their freedom.

Strong unions and progressive taxes, taxes becoming very steep at something less than twenty times the minimum living wage, are essential.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,011 posts)
21. Feel free to walk across the Pacific to China to mine Neodymium to make your own smart phone
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 12:56 PM
Dec 2015

Come work for me for free. I know how to put labor to use.

hunter

(38,318 posts)
26. I don't have a smart phone, never hope to have one. Good God, what kind of hell is that?
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 03:51 PM
Dec 2015

A dog on a leash.

I'm a dumpster diving Luddite.

I bought a new car once in the mid 'eighties. Won't do that again. I drive a different car now, as little as possible. Fill the gas tank once every couple months, whether I need to or not. This $800 car is older than the car I bought new when I was young and too full of myself. For some sick reason I live in a culture that refuses to treat non-drivers as fully functional adults. Otherwise I wouldn't have a car.

The last new computer I bought was a Raspberry Pi for $35.00. Beyond that, in spite of my fascination with computers, I haven't ever thought to buy a new computer. I can usually find or make what I need in someone else's discards. I first signed onto the internet in 1979, haven't been away since. 90% of the internet is crap and always has been.

90% of work is crap, which is Sturgeon's Law

Or, "Four–fifths of everybody's work must be bad. But the remnant is worth the trouble for its own sake," if you'd prefer Rudyard Kipling's framing in terms of 1890's levels of automation. My Neanderthal Ancestors no doubt worked just as hard as they had to, life was very much easier at times and much more difficult at times than any internet voyager experiences today.

But there are now maybe a billion people living today suffering lives that suck compared to the life of any Neanderthal.

Technology, what of it? We're apes, always will be. Maybe if we humans are lucky our intellectual descendants will be something more, but they won't be human. More likely we end up as a curious layer of trash in the geologic record of earth.

I'm trained as an evolutionary biologist. What's the world going to look like in 100,000 years? We're all equal on those time scales.

I don't respect wealth. The wealthier someone is, the more likely they are to be some kind of sociopath.

90% of the uber-wealthy are very clearly sociopaths, some more harmful to their fellow humans and the earth's natural environment than others.

I'm a hypocrite in many ways, not a hermit living in a cave, but there's a shortage of caves lately, or even places to plant a small garden and otherwise live a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.

In my opinion the world would be a much better place if more people used birth control and avoided unnecessary work.

If a person must be busy, than they ought to teach, practice medicine, create art (science is an art too), help those who need help, plant a big garden, but otherwise participate as little as possible in this global economy that is destroying the natural environment and turning people into tools and slaves.

I may yet die a homeless person on a park bench, My current "net-worth" is sub-zero, I've been a sick homeless off-my-meds person at times, but it's the thankfully rare experiences I've had "selling out" that always grind more on my conscience than all the other crap I've experienced in this life.


forest444

(5,902 posts)
11. That's probably THE economic chart the elite don't want the sheeple to see.
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 06:43 PM
Dec 2015

And that's in terms of income; in terms of wealth, the disparity has gotten even worse: we're still number one by far in terms of number of millionaire adults (14 million; compared to 2.5 million for the runner-up, France); but the median U.S. adult is now 27th in terms of net worth. The number one cause for this lag (though certainly not the only one): astronomical health care costs.

Median net worth per adult (US$ 000), from the 2014 Credit Suisse Global Wealth Report:

Australia________225
Belgium_________173
France__________141
United Kingdom__131
Japan___________113
Singapore_______109
Switzerland______107
Canada__________99
Taiwan__________65
Germany________54
United States____53
Chile___________17
China___________7
Brazil___________5
South Africa_____4
World__________4
Russia__________2
Indonesia_______2
India___________1

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1312773/credit-suisse-global-wealth-report-2014-1.pdf

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,011 posts)
18. Chart starts in 1970, after US had led wage rises for decades. France & Japan very war damaged
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 12:27 PM
Dec 2015

The chart is a very worthy one, but a wider context would be interesting.

The UK, Japan, and France had very war damaged economies after WW2. Japan was notorious for cheap labor from 1945 through the 1970s when it began to shift manufacturing to cheaper Asian tigers like Malaysia and Thailand.

By comparison, the 1950s and 1960s were boom times for the US and the period when the unions had the most influence.

In the US curve, notice the effect of the oil embargo in 1973, but also the overall decline during the Nixon-Ford-Reagan-HWBush regime and the rise during the Clinton era, broken by GWBush.

appalachiablue

(41,146 posts)
4. Good chart. We're also No. 16 in education. News of Canada's No. 1 middle class
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 05:02 PM
Dec 2015

surpassing the US for the first time was reported by the NYT in April 2014. Several major factors explain it; no Canadian housing bubble because of smarter, less corrupt banks, higher tax rates, less income inequality, etc. Go USA! Not-

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/04/how-did-canadas-middle-class-get-so-rich/361053/

appalachiablue

(41,146 posts)
7. For sure. It's interesting how the article states that Canada has a strong service
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 06:04 PM
Dec 2015

sector with their large energy industry. So even without manufacturing dominating, a service economy can retain a very healthy economy and middle class--IF taxes are higher on the wealthy and there's affordable health care, a strong social safety net and govt. regulation esp. of finance, like No. Europe. So many Americans are clueless how other countries operate more equitably. Hmm..

Happy Holidays!

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
9. DITTO.
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 06:38 PM
Dec 2015

I work in the service industry (healthcare), 30 hours at minimum wage is poverty clear and simple.

appalachiablue

(41,146 posts)
12. There was an excellent post here in the last couple days which I've lost unfortunately
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 06:53 PM
Dec 2015

that included a Map of State Incomes, what a 2-BR Rental costs and how an American family of 4 needs 60k annually to live decently. That works out to $30 per hr. And HRC doesn't even want $15. There's a newer program host occasionally on Free Speech TV named KAREL who I saw give this exact break down several months ago-- $30 per hour.

So $7.25 and most service jobs here absolutely mean poverty, the reason why so many Americans are cobbling together 2-3 P-T jobs like Bernie says. As the info. for Canada shows, it doesn't have to be this way. Change has to come, the decline and political stagnation can't continue and plenty of us are around who remember another, better way.

TexasBushwhacker

(20,204 posts)
16. $30 an hour if only one family member works
Sat Dec 26, 2015, 12:10 AM
Dec 2015

But if both spouses work for $15 an hour, 40 hour a week jobs, they would also bring in $60K per year. With $60K per year in income, they could not only afford an apartment, in some parts of the country they could buy a house!

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
13. Hadn't seen that.
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 07:30 PM
Dec 2015

Yet Canadians come on this board and tell us (some with the ) that those goals are unreasonable.

I find them to be contemptible.

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