Some thoughts about the spate of OPs/comments about Bernie's supporters. BERNIE GROUP!

[djean111]

Last edited Mon Aug 3, 2015, 11:33 AM - Edit history (2)

For me, DU is not the place to be trying to get people to switch to a different candidate.

The Hillary supporters, it seems to me, have been dug in since 2008. A lot of Bernie's supporters had already been considering Liz Warren for quite a while, and it was an easy move to Bernie once she said she would not run.
We have already invested time and money. Or a lot of us have.

So I have to laugh at the stuff saying oh, Bernie's supporters have turned me away from Bernie. Way to pick a candidate to run your country, folks. Now, I don't think anyone would really do that, so I call BS, just trying to dishearten. Fail.

I do my recruiting for Bernie with family, friends, acquaintances, people I meet, even the nice Jehovah's Witness ladies.

I think the other candidates will benefit if Hillary or Bernie somehow implode. OR, the American public, or the voters, rather, may surprise us all when they actually vote. And they may not care about lists of polls or cute little charts or shiny brochures and mailers, and they may very well just DVR right past all those campaign ads and have pop-up blockers on their cell phones and never watch any political TV. They may go for the familiar, for the change, for the person they never heard of.

But they sure as hell won't be taking their cues from DU. We work through our candidates - outside of DU.

That is my take on it, anyway.

edited to point out that this is in the Bernie Sanders group, for those who cannot figure that out. You know, by reading the "Bernie Sanders" at the top. On the greatest thread page.

[daleanime]

1. K&R.....

[olegramps]

60. Regardless if its Sanders or Clinton that really isn't the point:

We saw Obama ushered into office with great hope for significant changes. Although he has made some important accomplishments, the Republicans have been able to make his life hell with their determination to destroy him even at the cost of the wellbeing of the nation. People have to realize that basic changes that are required to save the Middle Class can not be realized unless the president's party controls congress.

It begins with local elections and that success it used to insure victory in state assemblies which use their power to restrict the other party, i.e., Gerrymandering, voting restrictions, judicial appointments, etc. The Republican have done a masterful job of winning the support of powerful blocks, such as the evangelicals, NRA members and Catholics who traditionally voted Democrat.

The Democrats have been sleeping while the Republicans have grasped the opportunity to cultivate the deep seated unrest the grips the working class. Trump' campaign has taken a page out of the most effective ruse to gain the workers support. He has identified a scape goat, illegal immigrates, as a major cause of the nation's problems just as Republicans have used the Southern Strategy in gain to take over the South. An objective examination of the Republicans policies reveal that they are in complete alignment with fascist principles. Trump is a masterful con artist that must be challenged as nothing more than a demagogue who is playing on the fears of the working class. He has absolutely no policy and is little more than self aggrandizing charlatan.

[senz]

74. Bernie's platform should appeal to the working class.

He doesn't give them scapegoats; instead, he offers solutions. If they can get off the hate track (perpetuated by Fox News), their vision, personal power, and hope will open up. There really are solutions.

[olegramps]

88. It should, but does it appeal to working class Republicans and many Independents?

Unfortunately, literally millions of working class people have not been convinced to get registered and vote. This is an untapped source that has not been properly recruited. Even Bernie Sanders, to the best of my knowledge hasn't placed any concerted effort to enlist these people who desperately need his programs.

Acorn was an attempt to tap this source and that was why it was targeted by the Republicans. He should enlist those 100,000 who attended his massive organizational meeting to especially address this untapped resource. If such a campaign was successful it would dwarf the influence of that the Republicans have over the evangelical conservatives.

[senz]

93. That's a great suggestion, olegramps. I hope Sanders' website has a portal for suggestions.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

104. Like I have said before.

Now is the time for a real progressive populist movement, but the message needs to be clear and not overly complex and it needs to be repeated over and over to drive it home into the minds of the people.

Then Bernie will win

[bvar22]

113. Maybe sleeping in DC, but the Democrats in the trenches are fighting.

In 2008, we gave the Democrats:

1- The White House

2-a large majority in The House

3- For a while, a filibuster proof majority in The Senate.



What did they do with that?
It is difficult to NOT become disillusioned watching either incompetence or failure by design.

[Hydra]

2. I rethought what I was posting here

Because of where we supposedly live- Democratic Underground. We try to provide each other the information that is not mainstream in order to make more informed choices. Some of our less welcome members come from the establishment to preach(lie) to us about things. Some conversions can happen and some breakthroughs made that affect the real world, but we're here primarily to become more informed about things the MSM doesn't want us to know. That makes a big difference all by itself.

[L0oniX]

4. Exactly ...and BTW that is why the mods will lock most things that are not positive about Bernie...

or sometimes don't relate to Bernie at all.

[billhicks76]

16. Clintonites Flag Any Critical Comment

They stifle free speech and it's beyond pathetic. Just shows her time is done.

[djean111]

5. Thank you. I use DU as a starting point for information.

I always look things up myself, when they catch my interest.
The ugliness surprises me because it has no bearing on real life, it has no meaning at all. I cannot imagine voting for someone because someone else on the internet told me to. That's what Faux viewers do.

[L0oniX]

3. I do the same. Most people that I meet I mention something about Bernie that relates to...

what it is that I am involved with whether it be eating out or sailing or at work and even at church. I couldn't care less what a DU HCG member thinks or says. Like the BOG there is no point in conversing with them. They are not going to change their minds because Bernie is the better candidate. It's all about who can win and for them that means grovelling at the feet of the campaign money suppliers of which some happen to be the same that brought great harm to our country and continue their greedy plans to rape us all of any prosperity.

[blue neen]

18. I do not agree with what you are saying.

"Like the BOG there is no point in conversing with them". Well, I'm in the BOG and find that comment unnecessary. It's my right to join any group here on DU, just like it's your right.

There are a number of people who come to DU for information about the candidates. We want to be educated when we make our choices for 2016. You may be surprised by learn that there are a lot of people who have not made up their minds yet, and may not do so for some time.

On edit: I just noticed that the OP was in the Bernie Sanders group, a protected group. Thought it was in GDP when I made my original reply.

[L0oniX]

31. Yep ...that's what I'd expect from a BOG member ...and you proved my point. Thanks.

[blue neen]

42. Well, just exactly what is it that proved your point?

The fact that I replied respectfully to you? The fact that upon realization I had posted in a protected group, came back and edited to let you know my mistake? The fact that I made no nasty comments about any candidates whatsoever?

Or, that in response to the following post, I explained that there are people who have not made up their minds and want to be educated?: "They are not going to change their minds because Bernie is the better candidate. It's all about who can win and for them that means grovelling at the feet of the campaign money suppliers of which some happen to be the same that brought great harm to our country and continue their greedy plans to rape us all of any prosperity."

It seemed to me that your essential point was that you're not going to "change their minds". Sorry to have bothered you. Have a nice evening, LOoniX.

[artislife]

46. Thanks for clarifying

It's easy to jump on a thread without knowing where it originates.

Have a good evening.

[Fuddnik]

59. The BOG won't let you converse with them.

Anything less than worship is not tolerated.

I lasted there for one post that was mildly critical of Dear Leader, and was banned from the BOG for life.

[awoke_in_2003]

75. BOG has a cult of personality

and it had leaked out to other areas of DU

[senz]

80. Uh. What's BOG?

Sorry, acronym-challenged.

All I can come up with is Big Ol' Grump.

[zipplewrath]

84. Barack Obama Group

One of the first of the "safe havens". I believe it still ranks as the safe haven with the largest number of "blocked" members.

[senz]

90. Are "groups" and "safe havens" somehow identified and cordoned off,

or are all these definitions loose? iow, how would one find a group?

[senz]

91. Oh, and thank you, zipplewrath.

[zipplewrath]

105. All groups

groups are different from forums. They are run by, and occasionally FOR the members. Some have very strict posting policies about points of view that are allowed. These typically are what are described as "safe havens". The members don't want to read responses that deviate significantly from a particular point of view. The only way to know is to read their charters, which are usually pinned to the top of their page.

I occasionally point out that basically DU is a "safe haven", it's just that it has a rather broad range of views that are allowed to be posted. But there are points of view that are not allowed.

[senz]

110. Thanks. I hadn't thought of it, but DU is a sort of safe haven.

Very few tiresome (and no delusional, unhinged) rightwingers. I've thought of DU as a place where certain basic assumptions are understood by all.

I like to comment out in the wider world, too, as our pov should be heard. That is where we can influence the dialogue, encourage or discourage memes, etc. It's also enjoyable, at times, to haul righties back toward sanity. I had to prove to a rightie that the Democratic Party is spelled with the "ic." And another one thought capitalism was enshrined in the Constitution. And another insisted that the purpose of government is not to secure the inalienable rights of the citizens.

I hate what Fox News has done to the minds of so many of our fellow citizens. If this country (and this planet) survives, Fox News will have a very interesting place in the history books.

[Jim Lane]

139. Your information is out of date.

At some point (fairly recently, I think), the Hillary Clinton Group caught up with and passed the Barack Obama Group in the number of DUers whom the hosts of the Group had blocked.

As of a few minutes ago:
Barack Obama Group - 122
Hillary Clinton Group - 131

[zipplewrath]

140. Congradulations to the HRC

I did wonder, because the BOG went through a fit for a while but seemed to reach some sort of limit on banning a while back. With the primaries, I wondered if the HRC hadn't endeavored to catch up.

[awoke_in_2003]

98. Groups are sections of DU

where members should be protected from attacks. They are identified by the word "Group" in their titles. They are safe havens. I agree with groups like the African American Group, LGBT, or the Atheist and Agnostic Group. In our society, they are minority groups that are under constant attack in our country, and sometimes even here at DU. Their group is a place where they can relax and not worry about trouble makers. I have a big problem with politician groups, as they tend to drift toward hyper-sensitivity and cult of personality. If you dare to even have a legitimate concern about that politician's position, it can be construed as an attack, and you may be banned. Sure, if you say politician X is a fucking asshole I can see where the group would be concerned about that. But posting a concern in a reasonable fashion is frowned upon. To me, it seems like these groups are echo chambers and prone to groupthink, and that runs me very wrong. Politicians should not be exempt from the feelings and concerns of the population- they should see these as opportunities to address the concern or modify their thinking and the way they do things. Politicians are not objects of worship- they are supposed to work for us.

[senz]

101. Thanks, awoke_in_2003. So, if I understand correctly, "groups" are simply threads

with the name "Group" in the title. Period, no other distinguishing characteristics. Okay (but it's kind of annoying that they are referred to as, for instance, "sections." A "section" should be off by itself, which they're not.) Sorry, I'm not criticizing, just trying to get my rather literal mind to deal with it. Am a bit of a slow learner on practical stuff.

I agree with everything else you said. People just won't let other people be. To me, letting other people simply "be" is the heart and soul of liberalism. Unless, of course, people just want to "be" mean and unfair to others -- and that is where righties can't stand us; we protect their intended victims from them.

I can see "leaders" like Putin having a cult of personality, but I can't understand how Hillary could generate "cult of personality," since, for me anyway, she doesn't have a personality. She has let herself become a synthetic, focus group-tested being, she has lost something vital. There is something very sad about that; it's almost like the VRWC killed her (on some level.) But part of what got killed was her conscience, her sense of ethics, which is what horrified me back in 2008. I also think she's essentially fear-motivated. Someone like that should not be president. And, yes, the groupthink deal creeps me out, too.

I'll bet there's an interesting story behind your username. Not asking for an explanation though.

Thanks so much for explaining these things.

(uh oh, the whatchajiggie says I've got mail. So far, that's never been good...)

[Jim Lane]

138. No, Groups have other distinguishing characteristics.

Notably:
* Groups typically have several Hosts, who can block DUers from posting in that Group, and otherwise act to enforce the Group's Statement of Purpose.
* You can subscribe to a particular Group as an easy way to see all the posts that are made in that Group.

Thus, there is some sense in which Groups are off by themselves. If you're blocked from a Group you can't post in that Group but you can still post elsewhere on DU.

It works the other way, too. You can trash a particular Group. Then you won't see any threads in that Group, even if, for example, one such thread picks up a lot of recs and makes the Greatest page. You can be surfing the Greatest and the threads in any Group you've trashed will never show up.

[senz]

142. Thanks, Jim Lane.

Not sure I've seen a Group. Except maybe a thread I posted a comment to early on in which someone other than the OP told me I was now blocked. But it all happened so fast I didn't have time to notice if it was a Group. That's when I learned it wasn't a good idea to explain how I came to my present opinion of Hillary.

Heh - slow learner.

[djean111]

102. Questions about a politician can (and should, IMO) be asked in the GDP. In fact, that is the best

place to ask, because many people do not bother reading threads in a protected group.
And people asking questions sometimes are really just trying to cause discord or whatever.

Once people have decided on who they want to support, then of course they are only going to talk about how to get them elected, and so on. Yes, some turn into Tiger Beat, but they are easily avoided. And I have read in other protected groups how someone was really gleeful about having crapped in another protected group.

In any event, this is how DU operates. And this is what protected groups are for. If you don't agree with that, you could take it up with Skinner, or get used to being hidden or banned.

Also, no one in Bernie's group thinks he is perfect. To the great disappointment of some, we are not purists. We just like Bernie the best. And this is a group for US, not actually for Bernie. I don't think he reads it, really!

[HerbChestnut]

6. What DU is really great for...

Is getting ready for encounters with folk in person. It doesn't get much crazier than what goes on in here, so if you can hack it online, you can certainly handle a good political conversation in real life.

[senz]

107. Ohhh I wish that were true, HerbChestnut.

Some of us are far more articulate in writing than when speaking. I've learned that I do the face-to-face thing best (with non-intimates) if I just say light things like "I think Obama has a good heart and is trying to help people," or "I like Bernie Sanders because he's for working men and women," and then smile. Sometimes I throw in a concept like, "It's all about us, the people. We are the reason this country was founded." I think people need to be reminded of that. And if anyone asks, I can quote parts of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution from memory.

BTW, your username reminds me of Thanksgiving. (Speaking of our founders.)

[rhett o rick]

7. I agree. How foolish to tell others that a few anonymous self-claimed Sanders

supporters on the internetz will influence anyone. I think it's possible for Sen Sanders to awaken the sleeping giant (the millions that usually don't vote) by offering a candidate that's honest and has integrity. That's were the big gain will come from. Those that do not value those qualities can not be swayed. Also, I think we will see Sen Sanders honesty attract some Republican support.

[PosterChild]

23. It takes more than being honest and having integrity to..

..win voters over. After all that's the supposed strength of tRUMP according to his supporters . So is it going to be Sanders vs. tRUMP?

[99th_Monkey]

30. Trump = honest and integrity????????????

[PosterChild]

33. That's what his supporters say...

...they like about him. He "tells it is", he "speaks his mind", he's "authentic".

And he isn't going to win. Neither is Bernie .

[99th_Monkey]

34. The fact you strain to bizarrely equate Bernie with Trump

tells me all I need to know about where you're truly coming from.

[PosterChild]

36. I don't "equate" trump and sanders...

.... i simply point out that one major basis for their apeal amongst their supporters has a strong commonality - the appeal of "authenticity", "telling it like it is", etc.

These traits won't translate into electoral success , in either case.

[djean111]

54. You are certainly not a poster child for someone who is posting in the Bernie group.

But you know that. And if Hillary was presidential material, she would, um, be president. See how that goes?

[PosterChild]

124. You are right... Didn't realize I was in the Bernie group....

.... I wouldn't have started in if I had realized it.

[Maedhros]

83. I'm unconvinced that you have any ability to discern what will or will not

"translate into electoral success."

[PosterChild]

125. You may be right...

... however, I have seen a quite a few "authentic", "honest" candidates of "integrity" come and go, and I've never really thought much of any of them.

[senz]

78. Sanders is for real. Trump is a blowhard.

Sanders has given his life for his principles, and those principles are about making a good life for the American people. He has a workable plan for each and every goal.

People need this. They're listening.

[PosterChild]

126. Trump certainly is a blowhard...

... and Sanders is a serious politician who has actually achieved significant public office and has done some significant good for America. This being the Sanders group, I will refrain from offering an opinion on the desirability of his goals and the work-ability of his plan, but I will caution you against the belief that people are listening. I think that most people out there, the "average joe and Jill", will find out he is a "socialist" and will not listen any further. But that remains to be seen.

[Autumn]

131. How about you tone it down, this is the Bernie Sanders group

Please post accordingly.

[PosterChild]

132. Sorry, I didn't realize that when I started in...

... I responded to what was posted to me, but I'm not responding any further.

[rhett o rick]

43. Yes I can see where some might think it's necessary to triangulate to win. But sooner or later

the people will catch on. They want honest and integrity.

[PosterChild]

48. My impression is that what those who...

... say they value "honesty and integrity" really value is a clear, unambiguous, public articulation of their own personal views. Which are often at the fringes of the general electorate; an electorate that is quite often ambivalent about the issues that concern the activists who demand "honesty and integrity". Another, less charitable, view of "honesty and integrity" is that it often devolves into "pandering to the base".

I personally appreciate candidates who take a broader, more inclusive and nuanced approach to the issues.

[TM99]

52. Then it sounds like you are not a Sander's supporter.

Why post in here if you prefer a 'nuanced approach'? It sounds like you might be happier in the Clinton Group.

If you are suggesting that Sander's supporters who definitely want honesty and integrity instead of the bullshit lies and distortions - oh, I mean naunced and inclusive approaches are on the 'fringes', seriously take this shit elsewhere.

We get enough of that in GD-P. It is not welcome here.

[PosterChild]

121. Didn't realize i was posting in the sander's group..

I apologize for the intrusion,

[daybranch]

57. Partly right,

we do want a clear , unambiguous, public articulation of a candidates views. If we agree with this and believe he or she will try to support those views after elected, we support that candidate.
We get this from Bernie. His unwavering support of everything we believe in gets our votes. That is by definition democracy. Attempts to avoid discussion on issues vital to us and the American people is insulting. It smacks too much of- trust me, I am not a crook.
As for nuanced views, I note that the only nuanced views on gun control seem to be Bernie's. Others just run from the issue. As for inclusion and broader views, we would like for the policies to reflect the media persona.
Yes you are correct in saying Bernie panders and he does to the 98 percent of Americans. Whenever his message is not aimed at a specific group, like African Americans or women for that matter but at pointing out the common needs of everyone, he is criticized for insensitivity. Some candidates seem to deliver their messages with a check off list. Bernie starts with and stays with what he believes, if that is pandering, and lack of nuance, fine. But you know , we democrats have many in our party who can be rightly called elitists. They wander aimlessly talking to each other about their moral and intellectual superiority saying things like why do republicans vote against their own self interests, but being unwilling to confront the causes of our society's economic and social woes. They are very broad for sure, and really like to sound educated, but they refuse to use their minds to really look at what is happening -the rich are eating the poor and our children are next,if the rich do not destroy the world first. So yes, we Bernie people have a great deal of populism , and we are proud that we support democracy via a discussion of issues rather than discussion of only who is or is not going to win. We know we are Progressive and fear any slips towards a regressive government.
Bu please, main stream media is doing all it can to avoid letting people see Bernie and his appealing to our beliefs. They and you want to characterize him as not nuanced, and narrow, and not inclusive. The truth is , his ideas and ideals appeal to the broadest swath of voters of any candidates, his ideas name names, and provide great visibility of what is going on and provide a vision of what should and can be. This is not about Bernie. It is about uniting the people against the rich who continue as they said in pre-revolutionary days to grind the face of the poor. The people want more and we are expressing support for the people by supporting Bernie over the limited media available to us. I am sorry that we upset your desire to simply state opinions with no proof. Your remarks smack of anti-populism, and elitism.. Maybe you could stick to the issues, rather than characterize any candidate's supporters without offering some evidence of what you speak.
You have a right to offer your opinion as we others do too, but offering opinions without explanation is just another form of name calling.

[PosterChild]

122. I n my defense i must object . ..

... to being characterized as a name caller. I didn't do that.

I have been responding to a post that seemed to hold that bernie's "honesty and integrity " would "wake up" the masses who don't generally participate and allow bernie to win. We have heard this before and such insperational candidates don't do well in the end. Waking up the masses isn't going to work and if it did the masses are just as likely to be enthusiasts for another "sraight shooter" "authentic" candidate like tRUMP.

In any case I'm not continuing to respond m since I found out this is the bernie group,

[rhett o rick]

62. I read that you value power over honesty and integrity. Clinton represents power.

Are you a fan of Margret Thatcher? She had the power.

[PosterChild]

123. Alongside other social virtues, I value power....

Power is a positive, necessary, social force and no one actively engaged in politics, including you and Bernie, can do anything virtuous and beneficial without it. Running for office is running for power.

Since we humans are social animals, we need to systematically coordinate our efforts and cooperate in order to achieve just basic survival, let alone greater and more encompassing shared goals. Power is the mechanism that enables selection of such goals and effective social cooperation towards achieving them. If those goals are good, then power, the means to those goals, is good.

My conception of power is the ability to administer a system of rewards and punishments in order to influence behavior. I conceive of governance as the use of this ability in the service of justice.

[L0oniX]

66. Yes "honesty and integrity" is now "fringe". Have you ever been out in public?

Maybe you live in a high crime area or work on Wall Street? All I hear about is how corrupt congress is so yeah "honesty and integrity" may be "fringe" in congress and the senate. So Bernie is the "fringe" candidate ...and I am fine with that.

[PosterChild]

127. The politicians who are lauded for their "authenticity", "honesty", "integrity"...

... tend, in my estimation, to be fringe candidates. This isn't to say the qualities are "fringe", or that they are lacking in other more mainstream politicians; they just seem to be the qualities that are attributed to fringe candidates in particular and make them especially attractive to their adherents. Just my opinion / observation.

[chervilant]

116. Really?

I personally appreciate candidates who take a broader, more inclusive and nuanced approach to the issues.

Would that we have any candidate who fits that rather pie - in - the - sky description.

[PosterChild]

128. You have a point...

... the qualities of a broad, inclusive and nuanced policy outlook are often telegraphed by evasively NOT engaging in any discussion or declaring any position at all. For instance, not actually coming out and stating for-or-against keystone or TPP. Those who do come down decisively on an issue get the "honesty, integrity, and authenticity" laurel, but that certitude is often based on ideological rectitude rather than a full consideration of all the trade-offs.

[chervilant]

135. Ideological rectitude?

I find it difficult to view any politician du jour through those rose colored glasses...

(And, any pol who's "evasively NOT engaging in any discussion or declaring any position at all" is likely minding their precious corporate funding--and continuation thereof--rather than considering how to help this nation and its true backbone: the Hoi Polloi.)

[PosterChild]

137. Since this is the bernie sanders group....

... I'm refraining from further potentially negative dialogue. I didn't know I was in the sander's group when I made my initial remarks.

[awoke_in_2003]

77. The problem I see

Is that, at least, 45% of this country is too damn thick to catch on.

[rhett o rick]

79. People are very busy in thier lives just to keep up and have little time

to study political issues. And they are bombarded by the Oligarchies propaganda. The Oligarchy think tanks were clever to mold the Republicon Party into the Clown Party. While some still hand on, many Americans feel safer with the Democratic Party which can serve up a Conservative of the Oligarchies liking. The Left has been marginalized by big corporations and the conservatives.

[awoke_in_2003]

97. True

Many are struggling just to hang on

[sabrina 1]

64. I hope it's Trump V Bernie because latest polls show Bernie wiping the floor with Trump.

He would sail past the GE if Trump were the candidate. Just because he's beating every Repub so far means only one thing, he has attracted the lowest INFO voters who heard him bash 'Brown People', the bigots from the Faux school of politics.

Second, the Corporate Media is driving the Trump 'story' in order to distract from serious conversations about actual issues.

The GOP will never allow Trump to be the candidate.

[stillwaiting]

70. I completely agree with your last sentence.

Trump will suck up all of the oxygen for a long time. Much less focus on other candidates (from both parties). Much less focus on issues (that are important to members from both parties).

Then, some of the Establishment Republican candidates will drop out of the race to allow for someone to beat Trump in the primaries. This individual (Bush or Walker most likely) will have escaped LOTS of media attention thanks to Trump. Isn't that special?

Issues that are important to Americans and SHOULD be talked about during the campaign will likewise get much less attention. Isn't that even more special?

Trump is being used, but I'm sure he doesn't care (even if he knows what's going on). In his mind ---> All publicity is good publicity and all of that...

[senz]

76. Yep. When you're that rich, a big, fluffy, going-nowhere presidential bid is like a

pleasant boondoggle, an entertaining dalliance. He's having fun, stroking his ego, getting attention.

[PosterChild]

129. Bernie WOULD wipe the floor with tRUMP's RUMP, and you are right...

... the GOP (and God willing) the American people will never tolerate him as a serious candidate to begin with.

[L0oniX]

65. LMAO

[chknltl]

99. Sanders and Trump are 2 Washington 'OUTSIDERS'

When Bill Clinton ran, a great deal of his success came from the electorate percieving him to be a Washigton outsider. They yearned for something other than politics as usual. This was equally true of Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama. Regardless of the candidate actually being an insider or an outsider the electorate when unhappy with their current status will vote for the person offering change from the outider position.

Both Trump and Sanders are percieved as outsiders which is why the electorate is rallying to them.

For the record, i came to this observation via Thom Hartmann who has been ranting on this for weeks. (He held a 2 hour rant on this today btw). Further for the record he claimed that Trump is only interested in all the attention he is getting but has no serious intentions of actually becoming POTUS because that would be far too much work for him. I'm of the opinion that Trump is a modern day P.T. Barnum and little else.

[PosterChild]

130. Basically, agreed...

... outsider status is important to the "honesty, integrity, authenticity" brand.

[JDPriestly]

109. The kick-off volunteer meeting I attended was full of people who are

not usually active in politics.

I am active, and I did not see any of my usual fellow activists. The Bernie movement is something really interesting in that you find people in it, many, many of them, who are volunteering for the FIRST TIME!

FIRST-TIMERS.

I volunteered for the first time in 1972 - - the McGovern campaign.

So this is exciting.

[rhett o rick]

111. I was speaking to some college students and they are enthused about Sen Sanders.

These are new voters. The non-progressive wing hasn't figured out that to win in 2016 Sen Sanders will bring new voters that may not step up if he loses the nomination. Clearly, more Democrats will support Sen Sanders than will support Clinton.

Also, I ran into a couple of friends that have been strong H. Clinton supporters in the past and they shocked me to tell me that they chose Sen Sanders first, then Clinton. These were two independent, long time active Democrats.

[AgingAmerican]

8. Bottom feeding

It's what bottom feeders do. It's what people like Rush Limbaugh do.

[StevenOBX]

9. HRC

Can anyone forget the whining and carrying on from the PUMAS after HRC BLEW IT IN 2007?

[senz]

81. I witnessed it on other fora. It lasted. They couldn't stand President Obama.

Although his recent show of support for Hillary (sort of wooden and scripted, imo) seems to warmed them to him.

[stupidicus]

10. it's dumb and/or dishonest imo

why would they in one breath suggest such, and then in another where her guilt by association with Kissinger is concerned, completely dismiss...

[Cleita]

11. Yep.

They've got nothing to trash Bernie with so they would rather trash his supporters. It's like beating the neighbor's dog when you can't beat the neighbor for painting his house a color you don't like.

[n2doc]

12. I frankly don't care what others think

I have hidden the "HRC Room" and GDP because I have no wish to see the endless teeth gnashing and finger wagging. I try to post positive things about Sanders, and by and large avoid posting negative stuff about HRC. This goes for toons also, you would be amazed at the number of anti HRC toons there are out there, and not just by RW cartoonists.

I would suggest that others do the same, unless they really enjoy duking it out with those who enjoy generating outrage. Frankly it seems like there is a concerted effort to get people banned from GDP, I guess to make it into another place to present a one sided view. So it is play at your own risk.

[Le Taz Hot]

13. We get this crap every primary.

And it's always the people who throw out the most crap that are the loudest whiners.

[Phlem]

37. Thanks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=490246

[Le Taz Hot]

39. That's the one I was thinking of.

How many paragraphs that all boil down to, "Don't say anything bad about my candidate or I'm going to pout." Oy vey! I came in with guns blazing on that one because I had had it. Unfortunately, one of those posters now has a sad because of it.

[Phlem]

40. your awesome.

[paleotn]

14. I completely agree (nt)

[artislife]

15. It is just the regurgitation

of the same questions and statements...every day.

However--the thread from Bravenak on the GDP is really vital to our candidate and to us. The other stuff is posing and positioning but

I do think as a group, we need to listen to Bravenak. Bernie needs to approach minorities differently.

I know he sees us all together in a class struggle. I get that.

But for those of us who have never lived on the receiving end of racism, we cannot comprehend how it truly permeates society.
One's ethnicity in this country is a pretty solid marker in predicting how you will fall in the income equation. Surely, there are those who rise above or below what the norm is.

I am not saying poverty, loss of choice or bigotry doesn't befall every group in this country. I am saying that is like having a 50 lb sack on your back in a relay race. Individuals can still get ahead, but the group itself it weighed down.

I am one of the few, I believe PoC in this group. I am lucky. I am Latina but present pretty white. I have seen bigotry against members of my family, I have faced it a few times.

It is like no other wound.

I believe the majority of Sanders' supporters want the best for all the 99%. We just need to realize that we have to pause and hear from people how best to support them. I believe he can. He has already shown so many that he gets it. He gets the feeling of opportunities falling away and loss of standard of living. He knows who is doing the heavy lifting.

So sorry....but I want to see him in the White House, so I implore any of you who don't see why there is an issue, to pause.

[eridani]

44. Are you a Cherrie Moraga fan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherr%C3%ADe_Moraga

She wrote a very moving piece 30 or so years ago about being a light-skinned Latina in a family with quite a variety of skin shades. She attributed getting tracked into college prep to being light-skinned, noting that her dark-skinned cousin Josie (who could "read, write and calculate rings around me&quot got the vocational track.

[artislife]

45. Thank you

I am going to Amazon now.

Thank you again.

[JackInGreen]

58. Agreed on bravenaks post

I find myself often at odds with her but none the less I can respect and understand her points.....most times.

[fbc]

17. Anyone who says they are not voting for a candidate because of the candidate's supporters is a liar

or a moron.

[brett_jv]

19. Gosh, things are getting awfully 'meta' here at DU lately ...

Not a comment on the opinion expressed by the OP, at ALL ... just my thought on the state of things here ... everyone seems awfully consumed by 'the opinions of others'. Too bad we can't just all have our opinions, express them ... without then everyone needing to (psycho) analyze said opinion(s).

[2banon]

20. Excellent point djean111. I agree!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

22. Yup. As I said in another comment,

I'm not recruiting here, DU is for fundraising and 'venting', or maybe sharing useful info to be used offline. That's why I simply put the Hillary folk on ignore until the primary is settled. I have no interest in wasting my time trying to change their minds, or to see them trying to change mine. It's just wasted time, we're all partisan.

[ybbor]

27. Not me

I am totally open to hear what other commenters have to say about Bernie. As long as it agrees with my view.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

28. Shrug.

Depends on what you're using the site for. If you're actually undecided, and NEED more info, that's fine.

[ybbor]

29. I don't know if you saw, but I edited my post

I hit "post comment" when I meant to hit "smilies" for the sarcasm tag.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

53. No, I saw the sarcasm tag.

I just replied straight up. I don't need to have my mind changed. I know enough about the candidate I support (and the other candidates) to win him my support. I'm not going to be changing my mind short of some epic scandal that would probably force him out of the race entirely. I know enough about his positions (and have access to 'list' sites) to spread around to non-political junkies I'll interact with offsite. So I don't have any real need to listen to people who just want to be insulting or sarcastic on here.

[Chico Man]

24. Bernie's infographics turned me away from Bernie

They come across cheap and divisive. I imagine they appeal to those driven by Internet memes or easily swayed by sound bites and rhetoric. They are very far from being presidential in quality, IMO.

[brett_jv]

32. AFAIC if all that Bernie accomplishes in the end is getting people talking about ...

... well, the things that he's been talking about ... then I'll be happy he joined the race and swayed the discussion towards things that matter to me, and SHOULD matter to us all.

In the end, I don't necessarily expect the man to prove to be Presidential Material(c), though I'd certainly happily vote the man if his name is on the ballot as our Democratic Candidate for POTUS.

[merrily]

50. Sorry, posting in this group is for DUers who think Bernie already is Presidential material.

[GoneFishin]

25. "I was going to switch my vote to Bernie, but since you pointed out an inconvenient fact

about the candidate that I originally planned to vote for, I am not going to vote for Bernie."

[ybbor]

26. Wait, what?!

No, no, everyone reads DU!

We are the place that America comes to for their political fix. And what happens here is a perfect cross sample of our great nation.

We are changing minds with our comments here. Right?

With that being said, Go Bernie Go!

Feel the Bern!

[Skittles]

35. the Bernie / Hillary bullshit rivalry here is sickening

certainly it makes me look at O'Malley

[Phlem]

38. me thinks they're just getting desperate.

I would recommend everyone to hang in there cause it's going to be a rough ride. Shit's gonna get worse the closer it gets to election, ya'll know that. There's tons of money out there to do what they need to do, persuade, misinterpret, miscommunicate, flood a group with trolls, etc...

Whatever money can buy. We can get around that by organizing, communicating with each other, and boots on the ground just like Bernie setup.

Don't give up, please.

[Thespian2]

41. Yep

Majority of young people I have met do not follow politics or politicians at all...

[delrem]

47. Very intense passive aggressive OPs about "Bernie supporters"

Repeated every few days, full of contradictions.

As in this condensed version: We really want to help you, but you Bernie supporters just have to ... y'know ... STFU and listen and quit with that "economic justice" nonsense. It's irrelevant and third-way doesn't like it. So STFU and listen, and if you persist in mentioning economic justice then you clearly don't understand the meaning of social justice. And you know, we're just trying to help you ... so STFU with those paternalistic condescending attempts at defending Bernie Sanders because, well, it makes you appear racist.

[cantbeserious]

61. ^^^ This ^^^

eom

[L0oniX]

67. ^^^this^^^

[senz]

82. Yes. The worst one I've seen was yesterday, Sunday.

But one good thing I learned from it is that if an OP wants a ton of "kicks" for their thread, all they have to do is reply to every single comment. Works.

[GoneFishin]

92. "I was going to vote for Bernie. But don't tell me why he is a good candidate because STFU. I'll

never vote for him now."

[merrily]

49. Choosing a candidate for POTUS based on posters at DU may not be THE worst

possible way to choose a candidate for POTUS, but it has to come close. Ditto twitter or facebook.

[beam me up scottie]

51. BRAVO!

So sick of being lectured about everything that's wrong with Bernie and his supporters.

I am proud of Senator Bernie Sanders and neither he nor I am responsible for the behaviour of others.

Trying to associate him with racists has to be the absolute lowest form of swift boating I can imagine. After one HC supporter got their post hidden for linking him to Stormfront I finally realized there is no limit to what they're willing to do to ruin him.

I'm not interested in "converting" DUers, either, and I will also continue to promote him in the real world.

But I will keep challenging the people who lie about his record.

[djean111]

55. I am not sick of it so much as tired of rolling my eyes, and I consider it pointless.

And I have to laugh at the effort to declare all criticism of issues/stances/past deeds as hate and bashing. I recall there was a fairly innocuous list of words that were to be attacked as bashing. Trying to reinvent ANY politician, especially ones whose being around for a long time is touted as a plus, as some sort of Botticelli Venus, rising from the waves, slate wiped clean, is silly and not going to work. Inevitable fact - you run on your record. You own your record. And winnowing through others' records, cherry-picking and misconstruing, is an old political ploy. Don't whine and snivel when it turns on you.

In any event, DU is not the decider. I think a bit of passionate partisanship brings us here, and that same passionate partisanship works against anyone trying to recruit or bully others. It is vastly more important to keep at newly minted redditor supporters about getting registered and voting in the primaries, than it is to harangue folks who already know who they want and what needs to be done. Oh, and those redditors, for instance, would not even bother to register if the candidates presented were all same old same old. No use ranting about that. And that is the natural outcome of today's corporate politics. Deal with it, don't get snotty about it.

[beam me up scottie]

117. If they would stick to comparing records GD P would be almost tolerable.

But Hillary supporters aren't interesting in comparing records. It's 2008 all over again.

Someone needs to tell them that the 'he's a gun nut, has rape fantasies, believes orgasm cures cancer, is a racist who hates Obama, never did anything about social justice, thinks income equality will fix systematic racism' memes have all failed to turn people against Bernie and that every time they regurgitate them here it just makes them look even more pathetic and weak.

Swift boating Bernie on DU began months ago, it's a way for supporters of other candidates to tear down others and it's also being used as revenge against DUers who criticized Obama for turning right.

I like Obama and don't hate Hillary but their fans are every bit as obnoxious as the alleged hordes of evil twitterites are supposed to be.

Rant over.

[hootinholler]

63. Sadly my sarcasm might have been the trigger for the recent poutrage

I will say after that poster's second hide, that was one of the fastest clearances of a flagged for review I've observed.

[beam me up scottie]

115. They should have been banned for that.

Instead the HRC group started a tribute thread to her because she was "targeted" and the victim of an ongoing "witch hunt" on DU.

And I wondered about how fast she was cleared too, I've seen others go almost a week before being allowed to return.

If your sarcasm was responsible for helping to shine the light on anti-semitic posts then you deserve an award, imo.

I doubt we've seen the last of it. Associating Bernie with racism is the go to swift boat tactic and they won't suddenly decide that it's too risky because one person got a forced vacation.

If the outrage expressed by poc who support Bernie isn't enough to stop them from race baiting and racial profiling, nothing else will.

[kenfrequed]

56. When you can't talk policy

People go after whatever they can. In many cases it ends up being "concerned" posts about how bad Bernie supporters are since they can't go after him for his voting record or his policy proposals.

[heaven05]

68. well...good for you

I ask my friends, family, acquaintances, Jehovah's Witnesses do not vote, so I don't bother, to do a reality check and just come here to see just one example of BS supporters and see how people who are not blind and dumb BS supporters are treated. My point is always affirmed, confirmed. I have sent a lot of people here, just to see the reality of american democratic/socialist supporters. It ain't pretty. Supporters ARE a direct reflection of their candidate and that candidates campaign. Period. Haven't made up my mind on the lesser of two evils and the long shot, but as usual as has been for many decades, not much to see or feel good about in our nominees, so far.

[djean111]

69. I think you are rudely intruding into the wrong group. Talk about a bullshit example.....n/t

[heaven05]

72. nothing rude about the truth

If this is a safe haven group, then it should clearly stated when the OP is on the latest thread page, otherwise, the OP is open to a free speech response. No "rude intrusion". No one will ever know what candidate nominee will get my democratic vote, so I'm not obligated to any supporters of any candidate.

[djean111]

73. I did not know that was a rule, I will fix the title. Thanks for the heads up.

Must be so comforting to feel one is the Holder of the Truth.
No one here wants to make you feel "obligated". That's ridiculous. Wrong group for that.

[Autumn]

103. No. That's not a rule. They can see at the top where it says Bernie Sanders (Group)

They can easily see that. The fact that it got rude and nasty is proof they knew where they were.

[Puglover]

119. Well they don't have to worry

about making the same mistake again. I'm a helper.

[Autumn]

120. You are such a wonderful caring person. You always go out of your way

to help people.

[Puglover]

87. I tell ALL of my friends family

internet pals and neighbors what colossal pile of bullshit it is that somehow Bernie Sanders supporters are hurting him. And they ALL agree with me. ALL OF THEM.

See how that works?

Nothing rude about the truth.

[heaven05]

94. sure isn't

see how that works. BS supporters are killing him. He's on a path that his supporters have strewn with rather large obstacles. All my friends and associates AGREE. ALL OF THEM. 60 years worth........

[ieoeja]

71. Propaganda 101: repeat often enough and people will come to believe.

Frankly, their posts come across as being very scripted. Maybe they're just useful idiots repeating each other's points. But they really do come across as propagandists rather than honest and heartfelt.

[historylovr]

86. I think you're on to something. Another one just popped up.

[ieoeja]

96. Identical words posted simultaneously by numerous different people.

It's either scripted propaganda, or they have achieved a hive mind.

[d_legendary1]

100. You sir, are onto something!

Every post so far has been about "Bernie and his support is okay, but". Once that's mentioned the pot shots come into play, as in he (or his supporters) are too liberal (whatever that means) and are disconnected fromt he real world (your guess is as good as mine).

Don't offer me an olive branch and then proceed to beat me with it!

[arcane1]

85. "If Sanders can't control his fans" was DU's jump-the-shark moment

It was a relief to finally stop taking HC supporters seriously after that bit of brilliance

[senz]

89. In light of OP's excellent points, it might be a good idea to

remember that, while we chose Bernie primarily for his real, lived values, which we share, and his practical policies in support of those values, it appears to me that many (not all) HRC followers support her because they identify with her. She is them, and they are her. If she wins, they win. If she loses, they think they also lose. This would explain the PUMA phenomenon.

Therefore, any criticism of her is a criticism of them. It's very sticky. It might be best -- though exceedingly difficult at times -- to try to refrain from criticizing her and instead concentrate on building up our own excellent candidate.

I hate to say this, because HRC's attacks on Obama and her general dishonesty have me royally turned off, but I think it's the truth.

[arcane1]

114. That is EXACTLY how corporate "branding" works too n/t

[hollysmom]

106. ha ha you know me so well - i always seem to miss what group I am posting in, to the point

of wishing there was just posting and no groups,. ok, enough about me.
Yeah I have been in groups (outside DU,) where people said the supporters turned me off, and there were ant-supporters pretending to be supporters. You don't judge people by the people supporting them, you judge them by themselves.
Years ago I read something, can't find it now, Anyway FDR was running for office and the communists supported him, the people against him used this to condemn him and FDR said he did not care who supported him, he wanted people to support him but he did not have to support them back. <- not an exact quote by far, ha ha .

[JDPriestly]

108. This is a discussion forum.

Hillary supporters should be responding to our pro-Bernie, anti-Hillary threads by discussing the substance, the issues.

Instead they are pointing fingers at us for pointing out the glaring weaknesses in Hillary's candidacy.

That's their problem.

I don't see posts by Bernie supporters criticizing Hillary supporters for criticizing Bernie.

They would like you to think that they don't criticize Bernie because they are just "toooooo nice" and just "toooooo loyal to the Democratic Party."

That is it, not it at all.

The reality is that they agree in very great part with Bernie's ideas but they are conformists and haven't yet gotten up the courage to admit that Hillary is a weak candidate, that they can't really defend her, that they like her, they like the idea of a woman as president, they like Bill Clinton, they have all kinds of emotional reactions to her and she has, and I will be the first to agree with this, some good ideas to offer, but SHE IS NOT A STRONG CANDIDATE.

She is a nice person, but she has donor-baggage, foundation-baggage, foreign-policy-baggage, votes-in-the-Senate-baggage, absolutely-unfounded-accusations-against-her-baggage, more baggage than any candidate can fight all at once.

The reality is that the arguments against a Sanders nomination are weak and the Hillary proponents therefore turn to arguing against Sanders' supporters and the reality we discuss on DU: that Sanders will be a better candidate than Hillary and that Sanders can win and change the direction of the country for the better -- AND THAT HILLARY CANNOT.

SORRY. I don't want to hurt people's feelings.

But Bernie is the candidate we should go with in 2016, and all the sour grapes posts on DU by Hillary supporters whose feelings are hurt by the truth and the reality of our time can't change that and won't stop me from telling Sanders' story.

We voters have a decision to make. We need to weigh the issues and look at our candidates carefully. Silencing argument and discussion with attacks on Bernie's supporters at this time is a sign that Hillary's campaign is weak. It has nothing to do with Bernie or Bernie's supporters.

Bernie's supporters, and I am one, are reflecting the malaise and discontent with the status quo that has been a strong and growing undercurrent in American culture since the 2000 election was stolen. That current is becoming a flood.

And it isn't just the Hillary supporters who feel like they can't breathe as they are swallowed in the rushing waters of Berniemomentum.

A bunch of our nervous nellie newscasters are too.

[beam me up scottie]

118. ^^^ this ^^^

[Power Boy]

134. +100,000,000

I echo the exact same sentiment. Thank you for that!

[artislife]

136. Lots of baggage

And the person who came in here to give us some truth is a

[Utopian Leftist]

112. Frankly, if the number of people swayed

away from Bernie Sanders by his supporters were significant, wouldn't one be forced to question the sincerity of of that alleged support for Bernie in the first place?

Another reason Bernie is catching on like wildfire is that it's not about him (or his supporters): it's about his stands on the issues. It's about choosing the "right thing" over the "sure thing." It's about revolution instead of settling once again for the lesser of two evils. It's about accountability: holding our own party to the same high standards to which we would hold the other party.

These things along with the desperately vital importance of issues we now must face, such as global warming and potential global economic collapse, transcend any petty differences Bernie's followers could create in turning away potential recruits who were genuinely open to a progressive message in the first place.

I would love to be gracious to Hillary's supporters and sing her praises. Her service to the country is not in question. But the differences between the stances of Clinton and Sanders are as vast as they are between, say FDR and Barack Obama. One was a good President, the other was an epic, brilliant leader! And I see Hillary and any other "Third-Way," Democratic politician who continues to pull our party and our country further to the right, as quite dangerous.

[canuck eh]

133. I talk to people every day, and I try to bring Bernie Sanders into the conversation

I've gotten a lot of positive responses....

[historylovr]

141. Great to hear, Canuck eh. And welcome!