So why is it exactly that Bernie does so amazingly well with independents?

[Fast Walker 52]

A) these are liberals who have become disaffected with the Democratic party but love Bernie's positions?

B) these are true independents, who have some conservative opinions and some liberal views, and Bernie's honesty and anti-Wall St stance appeals to them?

C) they are GOP plants trying to steal the Dem nomination from Hillary?

D) some combination of the above?

[peacebird]

1. A & B

[Rebkeh]

2. A and B nt

[Ed Suspicious]

3. A&B

C is just not reality.

[RKP5637]

4. They should be definitely paid attention too. I'm in A).

[Smarmie Doofus]

5. Speaking from my little corner of the universe:

A lot of progressives are creeped-out by the (esp) state and nat'l DEM organizations.

So they check the indy box.

It's actually annoying, because said state organization creates all sorts of unnecessary hoops ( deadlines, multiple primaries etc.) to make it harder for "indies" to vote in DEM primaries.

Including the one on April 19.

The lower the turn-out..... the better for tptb.

[RKP5637]

7. And yet we call it a democracy. The notion of a democracy is well fractured in the US IMO. n/t

[Autumn]

6. I think Bernie does well because people are fed up with the crap and are discovering that

the two party system can't work when both party's look out for each other instead of the people. IMO there are no GOP plants trying to steal the Dem nomination from Hillary, they know she won't win. republicans will show up to vote against her and many democrats will not vote for her. Back in 04 democrats would have voted for the devil to get rid of bush and 08 democrats and some republicans voted for Obama to fix the damage caused by bush and the crash.

There is not the perfect storm this time to sweep Hillary into office so people are going with what they want and need. Bernie.

[RKP5637]

10. Agree! The DNC/DLC/DWS are making some serious miscalculations IMO this time around. The

paradigm has changed, yet they are playing by the old rules. They seem clueless as to the new dynamics in the US. The GE well might be close and frankly frightening, because people of all stripes are generally fed up with establishment politics.

[NJCher]

17. yes

The RNC, too.

It's amazing how they can't see it, despite the fact that numerous columnists have pointed it out to them.

But damn, how do you miss the message when you see the crowds Bernie is drawing?


Cher

[RKP5637]

22. They remind me of some CEOs in companies where I've worked that just couldn't comprehend

what they were doing was wrong for the future of the company, despite what all of the analysts, columnists and employees said. And they took the entire company right under, even when the board finally got rid of them they had done so much damage by their blindsightedness that it could not be saved.

[LibDemAlways]

8. A and B, but he's legitimately attracting R's too.

My sister-in-law, a registered R who voted Romney in 2012, loves Bernie. So does a libertarian leaning Republican FB friend who was supporting Rand Paul until he dropped out. Shopping around for a replacement candidate, he listened to what Bernie had to say and was sold.

As for Bernie's appeal among Independents, it probably has a lot to do with Bernie identifying for years as an Independent. He's not an establishment candidate, nor is he Trump. That appeals to an increasingly large swath of voters who've rejected both parties.

[SamKnause]

9. ...

A)

B)

and;

There are also Republican cross over voters that are tired of the establishment,

they don't agree with Bernie's policies but see him as honest, they don't like Trump

or Cruz, they are rightfully angry at Wall Street, they have lost their union blue

collar jobs to the disastrous Free Trade Deals, they agree with his positions on gun

control.

[RKP5637]

11. Yep, I think there are a lot of people as Republican cross over voters now Independent/Unaffiliated

for the reasons you mentioned. Basically, they want FDR policies back and are fed up with manipulate establishment politics and frankly, those that want to hold onto their power and wealth obtained through manipulative politics holding them in office. And, I think an abundance of congressmen fall into this latter category of hanging on for their wealth enhancement and power.

[Autumn]

15. After over 40 years as a registered Democrat I switched to Unaffiliated

when Jamie Dimon was whipping votes on the Senate floor at Obama's behest. That was the straw that broke the camels back. After Bernie announced I switched back to democrat so I could caucus for him here in CO. I switched back to Unaffiliated after our caucus was done and I will not go back.

t was the most satisfying and liberating thing I have ever done. Oh I'll still vote for democrats but my vote will be earned not given.

[RKP5637]

16. I feel so much better too after switching to Unaffiliated/Independent. I just could not stand the

DNC/DLC/DWS rhetoric any longer. Yep, I will still vote democratic, but I don't want them to think I'm one of their sheep.

[NJCher]

19. Bravo, you

Cher

[DaveT]

12. The biggest and most poisonous myth

about public opinion in the USA imputes an ideological "spectrum" on our citizens, with a left-right-center classification system. It is accurate for maybe 10 or at most 20 percent of the population. But countless studies have shown that the overwhelming majority of people have no coherent ideology at all. Furthermore, most Americans are terribly ignorant of civics class facts about democracy, bills passed, wars fought and proposals floated.

This lack of ideological coherence and factual knowledge does not mean the people are stupid. It means that people have other priorities -- that the great majority are what Thom Hartmann calls Low Information Voters.

This assessment should not be confused with how people self-identify when asked by a pollster. People will place themselves on the "spectrum" because the pollster defines the question that way. But only a sliver of the public has any coherent notion of what liberal, moderate and conservative actually mean. I am sure that many other DUers have had the experience of having relatives or friends tell us with a straight face that Barack Obama is a "socialist.' I will never forget the look on my sister's face when I told her that the President was not even a liberal.


Every once in a while people start to pay attention to politics because they are really upset about some public issue. In my lifetime, I have seen civil rights, the draft, the Vietnam War, school busing, inflation, crime, September 11, the alleged War on Terror, and Katrina all induce otherwise disinterested people to pay attention to politics. And now, both Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are garnering support mainly due to the lingering effects of The Great Recession, and, by implication, all the policies that created it.

That is why there are a significant slice of the electorate who have Sanders and Trump as their first and second choices. Many of them will use the expression Republicrat, without necessarily agreeing with me or many DUers on WHY they feel that there is no meaningful difference between the parties -- but that is definitely a commonly held view.


So to answer your question -- lots of people who identify themselves as Independent do not know anything about ideology in the first place. This is not an indictment of their intelligence. It is instead an indictment of our educational system and our mass media which oblige citizens to go to a lot of effort to understand the operation of our government. Such people are part of a developing majority who realize that there is no longer a future for America.

Whereas when I graduated high school in 1971, there was no doubt whatsoever that if you were willing to work you could go to college or trade school and you could count on a middle class lifestyle and a better future for your children. Now that is just not even close to reality.

When Trump says that he will make America Great Again, most of his supporters take that to mean that he will somehow bring back the world of my youth when it really was your own fault if you could not make it (at least for white people.) They do not understand that it was the triumph of "conservative" politics that blew up the New Deal promise of social mobility. Nor do they care, for the most part.

They just know that mainstream Republicans and mainstream Democrats are mealy mouthed parasites that deserve no respect.

When Sanders says that it will take a political revolution to make any meaningful change from the disastrous course we are on, it is not just true, but it fits with what a big slice of people who do not identify themselves as "liberal" are thinking now. The most significant thing about this primary campaign so far is this -- Hillary's lead in delegates was NOT built on people voting AGAINST Sanders for his socialism and his allegedly far left agenda. She is winning the African American vote, the female vote and the elderly. She is winning among self-idenfied Democrats as well, which is actually a restatement.

None of those demographics will go to Trump.

Sanders has a shot at winning a big slice of Independents and Trump voters not because he is a Socialist -- but because he is not part of the Republicrat status quo.

[Bernin4U]

18. Bingo. It's a giant Venn diagram.

Nothing linear about it.

But that wouldn't be very good business, would it? Much more profitable to paint the world in black and white, so that you can be on the side with the good guys. Because keeping those bad guys at bay can sure get expensive.

[NJCher]

20. a couple comments

I will never forget the look on my sister's face when I told her that the President was not even a liberal.




It is instead an indictment of our educational system and our mass media which oblige citizens to go to a lot of effort to understand the operation of our government. Such people are part of a developing...


It amazes me how long it takes to put the big picture together. It is also astonishing to me how little some very intelligent people know.

An example: I'm on the executive board of my union, which is a union of college professors. We have a history professor as the president. A criminal justice major as a v-p. And a psychology professor as a treasurer. Nice combo, wouldn't you think? Among the three of them, however, none of them knew Hillary was in real trouble over the email issue. When I mailed them articles about it, they were amazed.

I will admit I've spent hours and hours of time reading about the emails. I will also admit I am a political junkie, so yeah, I prol'ly know things that people who don't share those enthusiasms don't.

But your point about "a lot of effort" is what I wanted to elaborate on.


Cher

[Fast Walker 52]

25. True-- it's just always really hard to understand these low-information voters...

especially among more educated people.

[Fast Walker 52]

24. Yes, thanks-- good post.

I suppose the political junkies who hang around here always have a hard time understanding so-called low information voters. I guess they are the majority of the public. But how many of these people actually vote in a primary election?

[pinebox]

13. Because they are like me

The Dem party doesn't fit us and as we're seeing now with Hillary's campaign, is it any wonder why? The 2 parties in many respects are quite close in a lot of areas, although Hillary supporters will scream they aren't but in reality Hillary's war hawk record and her not fighting for universal health care and no living wage is much more in line with Republican logic than progressives.

I want REAL change and I am sick and tired of capitulating to Republicans. It has done nothing but royally screwed us over and millions have been hurt because of it. Hillary's Iraq war vote is indirectly responsible for millions dead. Those were kids, families, loved ones, sons, daughters yet she gets a pass? I don't think so. Anyone who voted for Iraq should not be eligible for the highest office in the land.

IMHO I won't ever be a Dem either. I'm a Green leaning Indy who switched to caucus for Bernie and I have switched back to Indy. The future is in the hands on the young and thankfully they are very progressive and they lean towards Bernie so maybe there is hope. Dems however? When they are voting to cut and gut SNAP, we've a problem.

No thank you!

[Fast Walker 52]

21. I have always been a Dem but understand your sentiment

I have really held my nose to vote for Obama the second time, and I guess the good thing is Obama's second term has really facilitated the GOP falling apart. But the worst of Obama to me was his foreign policy under Hillary, and I will really have a hard time voting for her if she's the nominee. I still have the dream that Bernie will win!

[TIME TO PANIC]

14. A & B

If I were a GOP plant I would vote Hillary for two reasons.

1.) Polls have consistently shown that she does worse against all republican match-ups

2.) She will galvanize the republican base to turnout and vote against here.

[greymouse]

23. In my state independents can vote in any primary (not more than one)

I'm registered independent because ever so often a decent Republican runs for a state office.

I have mostly Republicans in my family. Every single one of them wants Bernie as President. I have friends who are all over the spectrum and only one plans to vote for Hillary because he thinks Bernie can't win the general. Yes, he's out of date with the polls.

The more people get to know Bernie, the more they realize he's a decent honorable smart guy. The country desperately needs him.

[TDale313]

26. A & B would be my answer.

Especially since his doing well with Independents goes back years- long before this election cycle.

[yourout]

27. People want someone they can trust.

Hillary ain't it.

[Jennylynn]

28. So if he doesn't get the nomination,

What do you think the chances are he'll run as an Indie?

[yourout]

29. He won't do it but a Bernie, Hillary, Trump general would be interesting.

Not sure how that would shake out.

[Fast Walker 52]

30. Good question-- I think it may depend on how it ends up in the delegate race

If he ends up getting more pledged delegates than HRC but loses due to super-delegates, I wouldn't be surprised if he runs as an independent -- if it is possible to still get on the ballot.