Who the hell are you and why are you here?

[rug]

This is a post in the Interfaith Group, a safe haven to discuss civilly the varieties of religious belief and nonbelief.

I am a born and raised Catholic who finds all aspects of all religions fascinating.

I suspect there is a lot of diversity among us and this is a good place to share it.

[hrmjustin]

1. I was raised a Roman Catholic by non-religious parents.

In 1996 I turned 18 and became Episcopalian . I found out 2 years later that the parish I chose in the west village is the one my grandfather was baptized in 1891.

[rug]

3. Did your granfather remain Episcopalian?

[hrmjustin]

6. No. He became RC to marry my grandmother but his family did remain Episcopalian.

The Anglicans in my started coming here in a 1670 till 1750.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

12. My father's family are all Anglicans, my mother's family are all Jews

My father converted to Catholicism when I was a baby, and I was raised as Catholic.

I have seriously considered rejoining the Episcopal Church, although that is currently on hold, largely due to Pope Francis. I am fascinated by Church history (and have a masters in the subject). In the unabridged version of T. H. White's Once and Future King, Gueneviere goes into a convent after Arthur’s death, where "she was one of those religious people who are better in matters of theology than they are in matters of faith." That’s me as well. One of my favorite prayers is Augustine’s "O Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief."

[hrmjustin]

33. We would be happy to have you!

[ColesCountyDem]

2. Although I was born and raised as an American Baptist, my family's religious history is complex.

My maternal grandparents were Polish immigrants who came here specifically because of religious freedom-- my grandmother was Jewish, my grandfather Catholic, and in Poland, marriage between them was not possible. My paternal grandparents were Welsh immigrants and Primitive Baptists. My mom was raised Catholic and dad a Primitive Baptist, but both decided to become American Baptists shortly after their marriage.

Like you, I am fascinated by all religions.

[rug]

4. Were your Mom's parents able to have a religious wedding here?

[ColesCountyDem]

5. They were.

They were married in the rectory's parlor by a Catholic priest whose only condition was that the children be raised Catholic, to which my grandmother agreed.

[rug]

7. Yeah, that's been a long-standing requirement.

So that's how your Mom became Catholic.

[ColesCountyDem]

8. Indeed. n/t

[TM99]

9. Why I am here.

My father was raised Catholic with ties to the Afro-Cuban religious traditions (though he never chose to participate). My mother was also raised Catholic. In graduate school, they met and married. They decided to become Anglican's together. My father is an agnostic mystic, by his own admission, with interests in eastern religion and mysticism. My mother is a very faithful believer in Christ and is extremely active in her Episcopal church in retirement.

I was raised free to explore any and all traditions and was never forced or even encouraged to believe or not believe anything. By age 8, I knew I was an atheist, but as an adult I prefer the term ignostic. I also knew then that I was a Buddhist. I studied philosophy and history in college and my thesis was on Hegel's Phänomenologie des Geistes. Before going into clinical psychology, I did a Masters in religious studies at a divinity school where my thesis was on Gnosticism and its underground traditions in heresies and occult traditions during the Middle Ages, Renaissance, and the Romantic Age.

I continue to read and study on topics related to religion, history, philosophy, psychology, linguistics, etc. In recent years, I have been involved in the Afro-Cuban religions of my ancestors where my non-belief has never been an issue. I continue to be very involved in Buddhist practices both locally and in some instances nationally.

I have been seriously contemplating leaving the field of psychology and at my S.O.'s encouragement starting to write on these topics as well as exploring work involving technology, music, design, and photography. I abhor fundamentalists of any stripe - believers or non-believers. And I really hope that Interfaith can actually be a place where more serious and deep discussions might occur without all the drama of other groups.

[rug]

10. Thanks, that's quite a lush path.

It sounds like your family is from the Caribbean. There haven't been Anglican churches in the U.S. until fairly recently.

[TM99]

11. Thanks Rug.

Yes, I enjoy academic and experiential pursuits.

My father's family has been in America for about two generations but yes have connections to the Caribbean and the deep south here in the US. My mother's parents were immigrants from Russia and Poland right after the revolution.

They decided that being Episcopalians was a good middle ground and an open church to be a part of. I grew up hearing my father always refer to himself as an Anglican so it just flows more smoothly out of habit than Episcopalian.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

14. The Episcopal Church considers itself part of the Anglican Communion

So does the Anglican Communion.

[rug]

15. And, ironically, the new breakaway conservative Anglican church is not.

[cbayer]

13. I am a preacher's kid.

I was raised in a very socially progressive and politically active religious community. I am extremely grateful for that.

While I do not have any religious beliefs, I am very supportive of those that do and share my liberal/progressive political agenda.

I am also invested in separation issues and look forward to the day when lack of beliefs is considered perfectly normal and atheists/agnostics/etc are not treated badly for their religious perspective.

Religion is used as a serious wedge issue within the democratic party and I stand against those that are prejudiced against others simply because they do or do not have religious beliefs. This presents a serious threat to some.

I am who I say I am and those that wish to paint me as something else can not get to me. I post here in good faith and with integrity.

While we don't always agree, I enjoy the company and spirit of the people who regularly frequent this group.

Thanks for asking!

[rug]

16. Did you ever have religious beliefs or did they simply not take?

Say hi to your Dad.

[cbayer]

17. They never took.

I tried. I loved the stories and I believed that Jesus was someone who was worth knowing and understanding.

But I am too much of a skeptic to believe in a god, and that never seemed that important anyway.

My dad is doing great and I will say hi to him from you. His experience on this site was really negative and he has much more important things to do than to fight with malcontents who will never, ever accept him.

Have you had periods of non-belief?

[rug]

18. No, not really.

I don't think you can either reason yourself into faith or reason yourself out of it.

In Christianity at least, faith is based on revelation. It can not be deduced, it must be revealed. Accepting that as a premise, I do think it holds together. The prospects it open are much vaster than simple nonbelief. After stating nonbelief, there's not much else to say.

Justice and equality are political issues that require neither belief nor nonbelief.

[cbayer]

19. While I realize that justice and equality are not dependent on belief nor

non belief, they are tightly intertwined in my history.

I'm not sure I agree about revelation. The way you put it seems to indicate that it might only be revealed to certain individuals or that those that don't experience revelation are somehow faulty.

I can't buy that. Perhaps another explanation is that some people really are just good without god and there is no need for revelation.

[rug]

20. No, that's not what I mean.

If God is ineffable, it can only be revealed. And, other than Gnostics and Scientologists, that revelation is quickly published to all who want to hear it.

I think what you're talking about is individual interpretation or individual intimations of God.

[cbayer]

21. I'm not sure what I mean, to be honest.

I looked for a god and didn't find one.

I developed a theory while studying evolution and genetics in college that it is not only possible but quite probable that there is something that is more evolved than we are and has been around longer than we have. To me it seems extremely narcissistic to think otherwise.

Whether that thing is a god or not, I don't know and I do not think that I will ever know.

But it makes no difference. If there is reward or punishment, I know that I have done the best that I could do. Not anywhere near good enough, probably, but it is the best I could do.

[annabanana]

38. I tend to think that the anthropomorphism of the eternal

is an error in human thought. Our brains aren't equipped to wrap around the concepts, so we create god in our image. There seems now to be some mathematical evidence of infinite, contiguous multiple universes.. so my beliefs are increasingly jungian.

[cbayer]

39. I agree. I think the anthropomorphism creates a whole slew of problem.

We are so very, very small and know so very, very little.

[NRaleighLiberal]

22. Pretty complex and ever changing...

My dad was catholic, my mom protestant (UCC) - he switched for her and they were married in the UCC church. For me it was Sunday school, sang in the choir, ran the youth fellowship - for me it was the music I loved.

Got married - my wife was catholic, me protestant - we got married by a justice of the peace, then joined the Episcopal church.

Over the years we've moved away from organized (and formal) religion, feeling that we can find our peace and connection to whatever we believe (which continues to evolve) anywhere, such as kayaking on a lake, listening to profound music, or watching the birds together on our deck.

I have to say that in my current mind, I don't for a second think that we humans understand much at all, so am open to all sorts of possibilities - but I do NOT believe in shoving my beliefs down anyone's throat, and am similarly offended if anyone tries to do that to me. So all that stuff about witnessing, spreading the word, is a no no in our book.

[rug]

23. How much do you think the denomination matters?

[NRaleighLiberal]

24. oh my, what a complex question. It shouldn't - but lots of people seem to use it as points of pride

("I am right and you are wrong&quot - it has led to wars, killing, all sorts of behavior that is the OPPOSITE of what I suspect it is supposed to be.

So from where I am now, it means nothing - in a way, my wife and I removed the denomination factor from our current beliefs.

Great question, by the way

[rug]

25. I look for the commonality more than the differences.

Well, it sounds like you and your wife have found a peaceful path.

[NRaleighLiberal]

26. we really have and feel so fortunate. Commonality is a great approach and should be

the root of peace for all - that we are all people. Remove the labels - to me, labels can lead to feelings of either superiority or inferiority. Not good. (yes, I am an idealist and optimist, I guess)

[No Vested Interest]

27. I am a "cradle Catholic" who had sixteen years of Catholic education.

Both my father, of Irish descent, and my mother, of French-Canadian descent, were Catholic, and my social milieu has always been largely Catholic. My husband was also a life-long Catholic. So the religion becomes as much a cultural factor as a spiritual one. And I am content with that and expect to live out the remainder of my life in the manner by now a part of my identity.

I am interested in many aspects of religion, still seeking to find greater meaning in all life and the world present itself day by day.
I'm not interested in arguing re religion or much else for that matter, but do enjoy reading others opinions on religion and other topics presented.

[rug]

28. I would have had sixteen but I dropped out in my last year.

Finished through a state school.

I think a lot of the problems in our church stem from the cultures more than the theologies.

[No Vested Interest]

29. You may have a point re problems from cultures, but

I don't think that has to be. I wasn't taught to dislike or disdain other religions in my education, and in my working and professional life, I never had problems concerning religion.
However, coming to this and other forums on DU does help give me a window into the thinking of others' beliefs (or unbeliefs) that I might not get in everyday life.

[rug]

30. I was thinking more of the cultures within the Church.

Some are conservative and more likely to ignore the social doctrines.

[No Vested Interest]

31. Certainly there has been that aspect in the US church hierarchy in recent

years, though there have always been a few who spoke for social justice, and many more clergy and laity who lived out the precepts
of the social doctrines. Sometimes we have to search them out and cling to those tenets more than ever.

[carolinayellowdog]

32. Enthusiast of 19thc US religious history, especially non-Christian and "alternative" groups

Last edited Mon Dec 29, 2014, 10:09 AM - Edit history (1)

Raised Methodist, through high school and college explored many phases of religious interest, gave up on organized religion by age 20. Was a New Age dilettante more interested in exploring practices than embracing belief systems, through my 20s and 30s. Increasingly developed an interest in history, pursued historical research and writing, in my 30s and 40s. Became more skeptical of all things New Age as a consequence of understanding their historical roots.

UUism is the best fit for my general outlook these days and I show up once a month or so at the nearest UU Fellowship.

on edit-- the "why here?" question has two parts. In the late 90s I began what turned out to be a 15-year break from religious topics and focused on more secular aspects of history. 12/12/2000 and 9/11/2001 combined to make the New Age optimism of the 1980s and 1990s seem tragically misguided. This is not the Millennium we starry-eyed woo-woo types were looking forward to! DU offered much more of the kind of Internet fellowship I needed at that stage than any online forum devoted to spirituality. Since I've returned in recent years to research and writing about religious history, this group attracted my interest very recently.

[rug]

34. How do you think the Unitarianism and Universalism of the 19th century developed into UU today?

They both strike me as specific doctrinal positions which do not necessarily lead into a non-creedal position.

[carolinayellowdog]

35. the Free Religious Association, founded 1867, was pivotal

My recent research has centered on the Transcendentalists, a great many of whom were current or former Unitarian ministers. But they were the radical wing of Unitarianism. Openness to Hindu and Buddhist ideas is a well known characteristic of Transcendentalists like Emerson and Thoreau. But there was also an embrace of Western pagan antiquity by people like Bronson Alcott and colleagues in the Concord School of Philosophy. So the avant-garde of Unitarianism was moving away from exclusive Christian emphasis by the 1870s. Universalism was more involved with the birth of Spiritualism than the rise of interest in Indic or Hellenistic traditions. Many Universalist ministers converted to Spiritualism, while Boston-based Unitarianism fed more into New Thought and Christian Science. This IMO has to do with the geography of Universalism and Unitarianism being different, as well as the emotional vs. intellectual styles.

In the short term the Free Religious Association "lost" and faded away. But in the long term it won, because by the time the UUA was formed in 1961 both Unitarianism and Universalism had moved in the non-creedal direction.

[rug]

36. Thanks! I always wondered about that.

[goldent]

37. I was born a Catholic and went to Catholic school through middle school.

I drifted away in young adulthood, but drifted back, and am much more involved these days.

[rug]

42. I had stopped going for years but i didn't change my beliefs.

[el_bryanto]

40. I am Mormon - i post here on occasion because I decided to no longer post in the Religion Room

I don't understand why people bother with that room; but too each their own.

I was just in there and got a good reminder of why not to go there. I do think that if you are going to waste time there, it's best not to pretend they are accusing us of being racist or conservative or backwards. Rather they believe that we are supporting a culture that allows religious racists, conservatives, and anti-science folks to thrive. If there were no mainstream religion, than any religious defense of Fred Phelps would be gone as well. It's precisely because we are mainstream or liberal believers that we are a problem, from their point of view.

That's why they can post stories about religion killing kids - hold us responsible, while at the same time claiming they are not saying anything specifically negative about DU believers.

If all religion were of the Fred Phelps variety, it would make their jobs a lot easier.

Bryant

[rug]

41. That's a pretty accurate description.

[okasha]

43. It's rather nasty in there right now.

[hrmjustin]

44. I think everyone is getting out their anger before the new year. lol.

[okasha]

46. The rest of us shouldn't have to be treated to the effects

of their emotional milk of magnesia. I've never used this smilie before, but

[hrmjustin]

47. I have decided to just not respond to the baiting and it works.

It really does work.

Hopefully after the host situation resolves things will settle down.

[okasha]

45. On the topic, though:

I come from a multicultural and multi-regligious background. My mom was Southern Baptist before the SBA went off the deep end with Anita Bryant and the increasing regimentation about interpretation of the Bible. My dad was Episcopalian. I went to Catholic schools both in Mexico, where I was born, and after the family returned to the States. My cousins and I spent part of summer each year on my maternal grandparents' farm in North Texas. Grandpa was a practicing adeweh, a Cherokee holy man, as his own father had been. We learned our people's tradition and ceremonies from him.

Long story short, the Baptist church never "took" for me. I didn't like the shouting, pulpit-pounding preacher at my mom's congregation, and the music was awful. The Ursuline chapel, in contrast, was a quiet, contemplative and beautiful space, and made an unlikely comfortable fit with native ceremonial practice. As an adult, I became an active Episcopalian, partly because of my liking for Catholic worship, and was involved with the parish's various ministries. My grandfather had died when I was a teen, but I still kept up Native practices with with a local intertribal group. Gradually I realized that while Native religion could accommodate Christian beliefs, Christianity as I then understood it had no place for traditions and teachings I was unwilling to give up. I had to step away from the church, but it was a sideways step, into a faith that incorporated not only Native beliefs but Christian liberation theology, and later, process theology.

Along the way, I developed an interest in comparative religion and took some formal classes. I tend now to see more of what various faiths have in common and to discount differences that don't bear on human rights questions. I'm here because I like to talk about the subject and learn more about it, preferably with the sort of intelligent and tolerant people who post in Interfaith.

[rug]

48. Was your grandfather, who was an adeweh, your mother's Dad or your father's?

[okasha]

51. He was my mom's father.

My dad's father was an engineer. In fact, every male on that side of the family for three generations was or is an engineer of some kind.

[rug]

53. That's an interesting match, Southern Baptist daughter and Native American adweh grandfather.

I bet they didn't think anything of it either.

[okasha]

55. They didn't.

My grandmother's family were Baptist, and very assimilated--sort of "lace curtain" Native. Apparently it was something of a scandal that she married a "dirt farmer" who was also a heathen. They raised seven children who adapted the combination in their own ways. My mom tended to be SBC on Sundays, but go Traditional in crisis.

[hrmjustin]

49. Sounds like z great family history.

[okasha]

56. There's a novel or two there

and a whole lot of soap opera.

[hrmjustin]

50. kicking.

[hrmjustin]

75. kicking again.

[TexasProgresive]

52. I am an old (64) Catholic man

My Dad's family were Catholic from the Merovingian dynasty if not longer. My Mom grew up Methodist and became a Catholic prior to meeting my Dad. I have 13 years of Catholic education with 3 years (5-7 grades) in public schools. I went through a period where I left the church, found that God loved me anyway and was drawn back in through the Charismatic Renewal, and yes I know that Charismatic Catholics today are quite conservative but not in the 1970s. We toyed with the Episcopal Church- the Church of the Redeemer in Houston which was extremely Charismatic but found a home back in the Catholic church where I am very active in my parish and diocese.

Off Topic: I didn't even know about this group (room) and would not except for an extremely active and contentions original post of mine on the Religion group. I still can't believe how active that thing is 24 Recs, 175 posts, 2365 views. I have never got that kind of response on an OP ever in all these years.

Who's hosting this room? I want to thank them.

[rug]

54. I'm glad you found it.

Here are the hosts:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=about&forum=1264

I never got into the Charismatic Renewal. I was quite comfortable dozing in the pew.

That's a well-thought out post you put up. The more accurate the throw, the louder the howl.

[carolinayellowdog]

61. Glad you found this group, sorry for the hornet's nest elsewhere

Although I'm neither a Christian nor an atheist, my default assumption is that almost everyone I meet is one or the other, and it never occurs to me to wonder which in daily life. Nor to expect any aggression from either side. But DU in general lately is a hundred times more aggressive and confrontational on all kinds of issues than "polite society" in the "real world." I'd like to think that safe havens here can provide a happy medium between "NEVER discuss politics or religion" (the default in polite society) and "ALWAYS discuss politics and religion with a maximum level of rage and resentment, and a minimum effort at mutual understanding" (which is become the default in DU of late, alas.)

[kentauros]

66. Great assessment of DU!

Outrage/Poutrage Central

[cbayer]

62. I think your thread is great.

It stimulated a lot of interesting conversation and I think you managed it well.

Based on the recommendations I would say that you spoke for a significant number of people who would also like to be heard.

[carolinayellowdog]

64. The rec pattern "over there" indicates a small number of bullies vs. a silent majority

The echo chamber is certainly unanimous, but notice how few recs the new "mainstream" gets in that forum versus what Texas Progresive got for his OP.

Of course, the resident bullies will both deny what they are doing, and intensify the disdain for anyone who complains. But imagine the African American group being taken over by a bunch who hates and denounces African Americans at every turn, and considers it their sacred duty to attack them. Or, to use another example of a group I belong to, what if the Appalachia forum was taken over by people who detest, and relentlessly denounce, all the people of Appalachia? Or, another case, the ancestry/genealogy group being taken over by people denouncing genealogists?

[cbayer]

65. Though it is not easy and I am not always successful, I try to stay above that fray.

I would hate to see this group turn into the AA group where people are called out and attacked without any recourse.

Some are best ignored, and I include not even talking about them.

I don't see any other solution. You see it for what it is and I believe most people also see it for what it is.

[el_bryanto]

72. I've often thought about this exact example

But the response by those on the other side is that we choose to be religious. You don't choose to be black or from a specific part of the world, so it's understood that we should be tolerant of those sorts of differences. People do choose their religion though and so it shouldn't be a protected class - on the contrary, given how negatively they see it effecting society, it should be attacked at every opportunity. Those of us who choose to support belief systems that lead to persecution, bigotry, and ignorance (as they see it) should be shamed, mocked, and silenced.

Bryant

[hrmjustin]

63. I am one of the hosts.

The others are listed here;
http://election.democraticunderground.com/?com=about&forum=1264



Your thread was well done and spoke to how many people here feel.

[kentauros]

57. I'm probably one of the least-likely people to be a member of this group.

Much less, as the top host.

While I was raised Episcopalian, I stopped going to any of it in my mid-teens. And other than weddings, and one visit to a local Unitarian church at the behest of my girlfriend, I don't go to churches or belong to any religion.

Instead, my beliefs run the gamut of what you'll find in New Age ideas (take a look at what Hay House Publishing puts out for a clue.) That includes beliefs I still don't feel comfortable admitting anywhere on DU, even here or ASAH (Astrology, Spirituality & Alternative Healing.)

Yet I do want to see religions work together in peace and mutual benefit. I am semi-fascinated with some of the ancient religions, whether dead or being revived (such as Hellenism) though my attention span keeps me from studying any of them. Just enough to know what they are and how they may benefit the world.

[rug]

58. I think you're a perfect fit..

Interfaith is not just Methodists sharing a ham sandwich with Presbyterians.

[kentauros]

59. And this reminds me of

Eddie Izzard!

[rug]

60. Lol!

[TreasonousBastard]

67. My father's parents were Catholics, but his father...

was lapsed and his mother left the church after he died and a priest told her precisely how many years he would spend in purgatory for not going to church. That's if he ever got out of purgatory.

Well, that was it for the Catholic church in this branch of the family.

My mother was raised as a fairly liberal Lutheran, and we went looking for a Lutheran church when I came of a certain age and had two brothers following fast.

The one we found, however, wasn't conservative enough for my father, so off we went to find a Missouri Synod church that was was rightward enough for him. Found one with a school they sent me to, and then off to a Lutheran high school.

I can't complain much about the secular education I got, some of which was superb, but the religious stuff really turned me off. The more they tried to pound scripture into my head, the more I realized it was all probably a crock. And some people love pomp and ceremony, but I'm not one of them. I can appreciate it as art, but no more spiritual than an opera.

So, years later, after laughing my way through a bunch of New Agey silliness and experimenting with some Asian things, I found my way to a Quaker meeting where any spiritual needs I had were taken care of quite well. I moved to an area devoid of Quakers and did what any good Quaker does under such circumstances-- I started attending a UU church. I am now on the board, which seems to be far more of a political than spiritual experience.

[rug]

69. That's a common story, leaving the Catholic Church over an experience with a priest.

The notion of purgatory as a prison resulting in a parole hearing is nonsense of course. If the priest said that, he should return to the seminary for that same amount of years.

The notion of purgatory is actually a profound one. Think about it. If there is a God as described, encountering it with all the crap we've done would be appalling. Even a dog who chews up a pillow has a form of canine shame when the door opens.

That's one reason I'm so interested in religion. First I'd like to know exactly what the message is, so I learn as much about it as I can. There's so much bullshit floating around that the bulk of it is attacking grotesque caricatures. That is such an unpleasant way to waste time.

An interesting path you've followed.

[TreasonousBastard]

71. It might be mentioned that the problem my grandmother had...

was almost a hundred years ago-- long before I was born. More recently, I went to a funeral of another lapsed Catholic and the priest didn't spend much time there but did express appropriate sorrow while wishing the dear departed well wherever he was headed in the after life.

I don't know if they are training priests better now or that funeral just lucked out and got a good one.

I find the concept of purgatory fascinating. I don't know the full history of it, but it is an answer for those of us who weren't perfect, but not bad enough to spend eternity in hell. If there is a just god, such condemnation sounds highly unjust.

BTW, I don't buy the afterlife thing at all. Since in the entire history of humanity no one has come back to tell us about it, I think we can safely assume it's not there. But, that what faith is for, and if it makes it easier to take this life, so be it.

[MADem]

68. Heavens to Betsy!

I am a host of this group, and this group was my idea way back in DU2, because I got sick of the shit-flinging in the Religion Group!!!!

I don't discuss my religious/lack of religious views on the internet! I am familiar with most of the major world faiths, to the point where I can enter a house of worship and 'pass' if needs must!

[rug]

70. I'm the opposite. The only thing I talk about on the internet is religion, politics and sex.

Not always in that order.

[MADem]

73. Ha ha ha--I'll bet you're a blast at a dinner party! nt

[hrmjustin]

74. Three of my favorite subjects.

[okasha]

76. +10