High office, low church

[cbayer]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasmus/2013/04/religion-and-politics

Apr 11th 2013, 10:55 by B.C.



IT IS hard to imagine a prime minister doing such a thing now, and even then it seemed rather surprising. In May 1988 Margaret Thatcher went to the General Assembly of the (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland and gave what would soon be called the Sermon on the Mound. It was an impassioned statement of a certain form of Christianity. The Conservative leader stressed individual salvation over social reform, the legitimacy of moneymaking when combined with altruism, and the “responsibility that comes with freedom and the supreme sacrifice of Christ”.

In religion, as in so much else, Mrs (later Lady) Thatcher was a bundle of paradoxes. She was the last British prime minister openly and emphatically to acknowledge the influence of Christianity on her thinking, in particular terms not fuzzy ones. Her fellow Tories, John Major and David Cameron, have presented themselves as loyal but lukewarm Anglicans. “I don’t pretend to understand all the complex parts of Christian theology,” Mr (later Sir John) Major once said, reassuringly. As for Labour’s leaders, Gordon Brown inherited the ethos but not the zeal of his father, a Presbyterian minister. Tony Blair is passionately religious but was famously discouraged by his advisers from “doing God” in public because of the fear that he might sound nutty.

Precisely because she had such well-defined ideas, Mrs Thatcher was almost bound to have stormy relations with England’s established religion. In her time, the Archbishop of Canterbury was Robert Runcie (pictured above), an Oxford contemporary who irked her considerably. A decorated tank commander, he commemorated the Argentine dead at a service following the Falklands war; he produced “Faith in the City”, a left-wing tract on urban blight; and he chided the government for demonising its opponents. Mrs Thatcher preferred the chief rabbi, Immanuel Jakobovits, who shared her view that self-improvement, not subsidies, would relieve poverty.

She helped to ensure that Archbishop Runcie was succeeded by George Carey, an unpretentious evangelical who this week remembered her as a person of “uncomplicated but very strong faith”. That faith was nurtured by a childhood steeped in the sober, self-improving world of Methodism. As well as being mayor of the Midlands town of Grantham, her father was a lay preacher. On a typical Sunday, she and her sister would have two sessions of religious instruction and attend one or two services. The family’s social life revolved around the church.

more at link

[hrmjustin]

1. Well you know they have to alternate between the High church and low church Archbishops

of Canterbury to make the church happy. Here in the US we elect our Presiding Bishop and all Bishops but in England they are appointed. Runcie was the last great Archbishop. His successors have left a lot to be desired. Carey was just a plain jerk, and Williams was a coward. The new guy it is too early to tell.
By the way I am High Church.

[goldent]

2. I read the wiki article about high/low church but it is still not too clear to me...

can you put it in simple terms, and how it applies to Thatcher?

[hrmjustin]

3. High and low church are a staple of the Anglican World Wide Communion.

The Church of England is the Mother Church with the Archbishop of Canterbury being the top Bishop of the communion but for the most part a figurehead. The Episcopal church is a member church. The denomination is a collection of national churches that started from the church of england.

The denomination is a member of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. We have apostolic succession and the threefold ministry of Bishop, Priest, and Deacon.

High church parishes are churches that are more ritualistic. Colorful vestments as RCC clergy would ware. Low churches are more the evangelical wing of the church. They are more likely to just ware cassock, surplice, and stole or tippit which is a black scarf that looks like a stole. Broad churches are a mix of the two.

High churches say mass or the eucharist every sunday and many say it every day. Broad churches usually do it every sunday as well. Low churches do it once a month.

Thatcher was low church and did not like the high church wing because the archbishop of canterbury at the time of her PMship was high church and liberal. He challenged her on multiple occassions.

[goldent]

4. Thanks - much more clear than the wiki article

Years ago, growing up in the Catholic church, we had something called "High Mass" which I think means lots of incense . Now we use incense just a few times a year, plus funerals. I've noticed in other countries, they use incense nearly every Sunday.

While on the subject of incense, as an alter boy, masses calling for incense were the most interesting as there was more involvement with fire

[hrmjustin]

5. We use incense at my church every sunday.

At the beginning, gospel, and offertory. I swing the thurible or censer myself at times. I have asthma but it rarely causes problems.

[okasha]

8. A priest at the Episcopal church I attended

could swing it in a figure 8 and a 5-foot circle to one side. Several blue-haired ladies regarded it--or maybe him-- as a fire hazard.

[hrmjustin]

9. We don't them only because we don't have room to. We do 360's though.

[cbayer]

6. Great explanation. I never really understood this.

[kwassa]

7. I guess we are broad church

Communion every Sunday, but rarely incense. The two churches we have oscillated between are variations of broad church, one does two readings, old and new testaments, the other does one.

It is a highly technical religion, which annoys me no end.

Do you use supplementary hymnals like LEVAS?

And Hugh Carey is still a loud-mouthed conservative, Rowan was spineless, and I have no sense of the new ABC Justin Welby at all.

[hrmjustin]

10. I have no idea about the new ABC either.

We sometimes use Wonder Love and Praise. We use the Gloria and the Sanctus from WLP. We use no other.

[kwassa]

11. so, you are a "smells and bells" church!

We also use Wonder, Love, and Praise.

How diverse is your congregation up there? The Episcopal Church has traditionally been the whitest of churches, but with immigration in this area it has become incredibly diverse. Any country that was a former British colony sends us Anglican immigrants.

You would not be at Trinity Wall Street, would you?

[hrmjustin]

12. No St Luke in the Fields.

We are mostly white because of the area, but we get new people all the time. We have a large gay population in our church.

[kwassa]

13. We get gay clergy.

and some gay couples in the church, but not as large a population as St. Thomas in Dupont Circle.

The previous assistant rector was married to her same-sex partner at National Cathedral by Bishop Chane, although outdoors in the garden gazebo at her request.

In my previous church to that the rector was a lesbian whose partner was fully included in the life of the church. It was never an issue.

[hrmjustin]

14. We have gay clergy as well.

I loved Bishop Chane! He was much better than my bishop at the time Bishop Sisk. Our new Bishop Andrew Deitsche is much better. I have heard of St. Thomas in Dupont Circle.

[kwassa]

15. My wife knew Chane the best.

She was on the Diocesan Council for four years, despite the fact that we changed churches in the middle of all that. He recommended her for an at-large seat.

I had a great conversation with him about Peter Akinola, then the Archbishop of Nigeria, and he informed me in advance that Akinola would be banned from Israel, where a GAFCON conference was being planned. He was right. ( Assuming you know the history of all this).

[hrmjustin]

16. Friends of mine met Akinola in their parish and he was shaking their hands he realized they

were a gay couple. He withdrew his hand from them in a big huff. This was a huge story here in the NY diocese, so much so it made the diocesan newspaper. We nicknamed the move do the Akinola. Please remind me which one is the GAFCON conference?