no means yes. a major campaign for pizza co. study out. yale chant. date rape use to be exciting

[seabeyond]

We investigated whether women ever engage in token resistance to sex—saying no but meaning yes—and, if they do, what their reasons are for doing so. A questionnaire administered to 610 undergraduate women asked whether they had ever engaged in token resistance and, if so, asked them to rate the importance of 26 possible reasons. We found that 39.3% of the women had engaged in token resistance at least once. Their reasons fell into three categories: practical, inhibition-related, and manipulative reasons. Women's gender role attitudes, erotophobia–erotophilia, and other attitudes and beliefs varied as a function of their experience with token resistance and their sexual experience. We argue that, given society's sexual double standard, token resistance may be a rational behavior. It could, however, have negative consequences, including discouraging honest communication, perpetuating restrictive gender stereotypes, and—if men learn to disregard women's refusals—increasing the incidence of rape. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved) http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/54/5/872/

what is going on? there is a study saying 39.3% had engaged in a token resistence at least once 'or just once'. that is saying that 60.7% women never have. that is saying that a minority of women have done it possibly only one time in all their experiences with sex. that is a small number of times this has been used. when really breaking it down. but, what is the issue with this, and why i am having issues with it.

in a world where our girls are taught from the youngest of age by society that if they have sex they are "ho's" are we surprised? where both genders let our girls know that they are less respected if they choose to have sex. while our boys are raised to actively go after and gain the pat on the back for sex, our girls are actively conditioned that their sexuality is to be restrained.

so, in a study, 39.3% of the women had engaged in token resistance at least once 'or just once'.

a study on a minority of our very young women that are first walking into their sexuality may not have the confidence and security to boldly say, yes, i want sex.

i see a thread put out that this study means something. no discussion, just a see.... women play this game. i am really bothered with this mentality. and i am bothered what this is promoting. and once again, i am seeing all of us step back in time.

so, what is the ever confused boys/mens role in this? PUI, to convince her, cause after all she really means yes? and is that all of our young women? because the study suggest a small number, and even at that can be just once in their life. if a man puts any kind of importance in this study, without thought, he leaves himself to be the one to figure out who are the 60.7% women that really mean no. or the other 39.3% of women that may have just done that once, and then grown up, and mean no....

if a young women says no, then do not have sex with her. if she wanted convinced, then tough shit. she can be disappointed and the guy can be in the role of teaching her to grow up by leavig her disappointed..... and she can learn to claim what she wants, boldly giving her a life lesson. you say no, you do not get. that simple. it is not a game.

we talk about individual girls/women choices and not responsible to women as a whole. for me this is an excellent example how a girl may make a choice that effects all of women. then you have threads on boards that use these numbers and say, see.... really no means yes. putting all the women, the ones that mean DAMN IT, NO, at risk. we need to teach our girls well.

there was one post, yea.... that i woke up to this morning that basically said, ya, but, if she says no, that is no. that simple. yea him. thanks.

[snot]

1. or if an old woman says no. Also,

how about if they asked how many women finally consented under pressure but really wanted to say no?

Also, how do they define "token resistance" -- would it, e.g., include instances of the foregoing?

But, um, the link is not working for me at the moment.

[seabeyond]

4. all of this is what bothers me about this. then to add, it appears men are holding up as a reason

to not listen to the NO. after so much time trying to educate about date rape, we seem to be embracing it as a society.

they ask girls... and EVER. not normal practice, BUT ever. and maybe a girl didnt want to, and said no, but later changed her mind. and she thinks of that. and says, well i played the game too.

IF they had talked to older women, then i think they would have heard a different story.

IF they separated this, which almost all of us have been in a position of.... "how about if they asked how many women finally consented under pressure but really wanted to say no? ". how many girls interpreted this as what they were asking.

but worse, is to see a society where this rejection of date rape is becoming a norm. where on a board of grown ups.... it is challenged so weakly by our men. that really bothers me.

i will check out the link. thanks. there reallly is not much there.

[seabeyond]

5. the link works for me. nt

[snot]

8. Thx, sorry; f.w.i.w.,

apparently their system won't let you look at the article unless you accept their cookies.

[malthaussen]

2. Only one in three, eh?

I would have expected the figure to be somewhat higher, but then again I am of a different generation from most of the respondents.

This might be useful information, if it were reasonable to assume that males actually care about what females want. Has this been your experience?

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

6. if it were reasonable to assume that males actually care about what females want.

this is what i am hearing and where my real concern lies.....

Has this been your experience?

yes. with about all men that have and are in my life. i see a whole other animal on the net and what i am seeing from behaviors to inform us, on the net, that i saw very little of before.

[malthaussen]

9. Granting that the 'Net is like driving

... in that it brings out the hidden asshole, I have a hard time believing that even the most animalistic frat rats forty years ago would have lined up outside a sorority to chant "No means yes and yes means anal!" Whatever they might have thought in private. Making full allowance for old-fogeyism, it's hard for me nevertheless to conclude other than our society has become more openly vicious since the Moral Majority (tm) took over.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

10. i totally agree with you.... absolutely. nt

[CrispyQ]

18. "...our society has become more openly vicious since the Moral Majority (tm) took over."

Truer words were never spoken. Compassionate conservative was also double speak.

Our culture is a cesspool. We have valued the individual so much over community that behavioral standards are sinking to the lowest common denominator. Until we restore balance to the individual/community equation, we are not going positive type direction.

[redqueen]

3. Surely a minority of women doing this at least *once* means date rape is all women's fault.

No one can fault men for going ahead and fucking her anyway... I mean, "He might just be trying to become her fantasy." (Actual quote from Warren Farrell, actively excusing rapists. Helpfully provided right here on DU.)

[seabeyond]

7. date rape is all women's fault.

you hit it exactly redqueen. yes. this is what really is bothering me. i thought we had gotten beyond this. it seems over the last decade too many of our guys have decided they dont want to play the game of respecting a woman, anymore and are actively fighting back, to validate, justify, excuse date rape.

[redqueen]

11. It's something MRAs are quite upset about,

the possibility that date/acquaintance rape might be taken seriously.

Thankfully the heinous crimes of Jerry Sandusky seems to have raised awareness of the fact that many colleges aren't complying with the Clery Act, so maybe more of them will be forced to do so now.

[seabeyond]

12. MRAs are quite upset about, the possibility that date/acquaintance rape might be taken seriously.

i know redq. i know

and not only mra.... as we see at du.

i was talking about the sandusky benefit with sons yesterday saying the same thing.

[mzteris]

13. you know what bothers me about this discussion of

"date rape". . .

how about SPOUSAL RAPE?

That get's little to no press. And ZERO comprehension from nearly all males and many females.

When your wife says NO, it means NO - just like if it were your 'date' or acquaintance.

Wearing you down. Pleading, whining, cajoling. Threatening. Pouting. Wheedling. Accusing. And out right RAPE. Just because she's your "wife" does NOT give you the right to have sex with her whenever you want.

I don't hear THIS discussed much at all. And imo - it's probably as - if not more - pervasive as 'date rape'. And still just as wrong and damaging.

[redqueen]

14. AFAIK there's no argument about that on DU.

It is considered one of the triumphs of the feminist movement that it is recognized as a crime and not a husband's right.

I interpreted the lack of discussion to mean there is absolutely no disagreement that it is a crime, and it is never acceptable or excusable.

[ismnotwasm]

15. It's like a secret I think

The laws are in place, but women get beat by spouses every day all over the world, and are only protected some, not all, countries. I figure if a man would beat his spouse, he would also rape them. "intimate partner violence" is a enormous problem, I think spousal rape get tossed in like a package deal, whenever the issues are discussed or addressed, rather than seen as a separate problem.

[mzteris]

17. maybe it's the

expectation. The issues with "saying no". One doesn't have to be physically raped to be "forced" to have sex. You have no choice. You have no say. You have someone with all the power and/or all the money and/or all the 'control' in a relationship.

You're a stay-at-home mom with no resources and small children and completely dependent on this person who INSISTS you have sex with them. Even if they refrain from physically forcing you, they have other ways to "make you". I think that's the point I'm trying to make.

And no, I guess I didn't realize "no discussion" of rape was overall DU tacit approval of the fact that it's "wrong". I think I kinda disagree with that thought given some of the absolute BS we've been seeing on DU lately regarding female rights and male behaviour.

[seabeyond]

16. thank you for speaking up about this. i agree with redq, ismnot and you on this issue.

i have never been in a situation where that would even be a consideration. but, i have never been in a situation of any other type of abuse from someone that supposedly cares about me.

good points all over the place.

[CrispyQ]

19. "...we need to teach our girls well."

When I was young, I never had a problem letting guys know I wasn't interested. I had a strong mother & many other strong women in my life that set examples of standing up for themselves & their convictions. I had friends who were not so fortunate & now, I look back & wonder how I would have handled some of the situations I was in when I was in my teens, if I had had their background instead of mine.


If I were a young man of character, I would err on the side of caution.

[seabeyond]

20. not only with the issue of rape, i see a protection for our boys, having two.

Last edited Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:29 PM - Edit history (1)

we have discussed it. and i tell them, make sure there is enthusiasm.... to ensure no misstep at all. and it works both ways. people like to pretend that only the girls can be pressured. i dont buy any of that. but, i make sure they are well aware of all the little ins and outs of it.

you are sure in your no. but, with a game played of, make my no a yes so i do not have to have the responsibility, it endangers all girls, cause really, at the point of being a woman, i dont think there is much playing. i would hope.

[ismnotwasm]

21. Interesting you bring this up

My oldest grandson is now 13. He's 5'8", looks a bit older than he is, very attractive, plays guitar, girls like him. My daughter tells me about some of kind of attention he gets from girls a bit older than him. Some of these future women have already sexualized themselves as far as clothing choices. (where are their parents!, my daughter says)Combine that with the notion that being sexually active is somehow empowering (it can be, but it tends to be self destructive power when one is too young, too ignorant or simply not ready) he is under quite a bit of pressure, not to mention dealing with his own sexual feelings. You actually have a situation akin to a pressure cooker. My daughter has frequent and open talks with him, but she also watches him closely, keeps him busy. She also says some stupid shit to him, like 'girls are evil'--as In manipulative and uncaring whose feelings they hurt. She doesn't mean it in a biblical sense. (I'm going to have to have him over for a little feminist talk--he's used to it)

I think We, as in society as a whole, have got to do a better job educating our children about sexuality and the feelings that go with them, as well as gender inequities.

[seabeyond]

22. my oldest had a tough break up with the first girl.

i couldnt help, regardless of how angry i was with his pain, that she is a YOUNG girl and no way knows her way around any more than he did. so even in the discussions of girls play games, it is always, she is trying to figure things out herself.

13 is WAY too young.

really, my kids have to be around 16 before the whole boyfriend, girlfriend thing. i tell them you need your own transport, lol. a little here and there up to the age, a learning with parent picking up and dropping off.

my oldest is grounded, balanced. boys have the pressure of a girls "looks" representing HIS manhood. i think this was the best thing i taught them, that they could let go of. of course we all want attractive, but there is a weight off, realizing our looks is not our worth and our looks are not a mans worth, lol.

my oldest told me the other day. this new girl reads. a lot. (all have to be a bit serious, and all have to be smart, indicative with the AP courses). that reading probably will show she is able to have empathy. that a person that reads and are into movies need to be able to do empathy. (it is his new formula and empathy is what he feels a number of kids his age lacks).

it is interesting. it cannot EVER be pitting one gender against another.

i had an OP where it was saying that the mother was the dominant force on if a son was sexist. i think in her own way, (different than what i would have expected) your daughter may be teaching her son that.

with my sons, with my nephews and nieces, i believe that extended family, loved ones, role is very important in kids life.

i like your idea.

[ismnotwasm]

23. Damn skippy its sexist

I never go to war over anything with my kids, it's counter-productive. And he really is doing very well. But I really disliked hearing those words out of her mouth, she does know better. I suppose it's her way of protecting him, but its still bullshit.

And you are so right, these are young girls trying to find their own way. I'm certain there is at least one with a flaming crush on my grandson, who is too shy, or at least not flamboyant to even get caught looking at him. Probably suffers through that nightly.

That's part of the talk I want to have with him, respect your peers for who they are and what they're going through, don't follow the self destructive, honor women as equals, and never be afraid to speak up against a wrong

[seabeyond]

24. i really think, that with a good balance and foundation

the kid of either gender, looks for a good solid person. there is ugly with both genders. mean, hurtful, selfish. it is a human condition. but after so many years teaching respect, kindness, all those good things. to expect and to give those things. that is what they will look for first in a person. i really believe that. what i see in my first son. appears what i am getting from my second son.

i have told my boys there are manipulative girls out there. be wary. but, they also have to bring the girl around that they are interested in. (and i get to get a feel of the person). as do my nieces and nephews. we have dinners. trying to put one together with two nieces and their current man, and my oldest and his GF. it is such a hoot. cause they all know, it is not asking, it is something they all have to do.

they are so cute.