History of Feminism
Related: About this forumMy first visit to this group was last night serving on a jury for a post on a Tosh thread.
It's easy to pile on sometimes; other times, not so much.
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July 10, 2012
Whatever Happened to Melissa Harris-Perry?
When a Feminist Gets Bumped for a Pornographer
by GAIL DINES
Last week, midway through a leisurely Saturday afternoon, I got an email from MSNBC asking me to be on the Melissa Harris Perry Show a week later (July 7th). I was delighted to accept, as MHP is not your usual American journalist. A professor of political science at Tulane University, she is an outspoken African American feminist and a progressive voice in a media landscape dominated by right-wing talking heads. MSNBC is a rare media oasis in the U.S. where one gets to hear some actual critical analysis, so Imistakenly, it turned outthought this was going to be one of the few positive experiences Ive had working with corporate-controlled media. In all honesty, after many years of being on talk shows in the U.S., I have come to expect very little in terms of integrity from the media. Their job is to boost ratings by making stories entertaining and light, and God help anyone who gets in their way.
I spent a long time on the phone with MHPs producer talking about my research on the harms of porn and the ways women in the industryespecially women of colorare financially exploited and physically and emotionally dehumanized and debased. Given MHPs feminist politics and her scholarly work on the representation of African American women in U.S. history, I was excited to do a show with an interviewer whom I expected would be engaging and thoughtful, in contrast to the usual adolescent sniggering I get from the male journalist who suddenly finds himself in the awkward position of interviewing a feminist who doesnt think porn is fun.
But by the middle of the week things started to go very wrong. My last conversation with the producers was on the Sunday before the show, and I was told that I would get a call by Tuesday to confirm my travel details. Wednesday came, and no call. On Thursday, I got an email saying that the segment is changing, so they wont need me. Changing not canceled. To the uninitiated this might seem like splitting hairs, but I am an old hand at dealing with the media, and I have been in this position more times than I can count.
Let me explain how it often plays out: I get a call from a producer to do a show about porn, and in our pre-show discussion the producer is shocked to hear about what really goes on in the porn industry...
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I gotta hear more from Gail Dines.
Has anyone seen or heard whether MHP has responded?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)she is very smart and informed.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)How she handles this will speak volumes. I suspect (hope) that MHP will come out with a, "You know what? You're right. I really blew that one" kind of statement.
And if she does, her already high flying stock will shoot through the roof for me. But if she doesn't, I suspect that I will place a memo in my personal memory file indicating that I disagree with her on this issue. I doubt it'll stop me from watching her show or considering her commentary on other topics.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that is funny. thanks strong.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)has decided she is wacko and what she brings to the table is nutz.... so she is irrelevant and anyone that uses her voice is an extremist. thank you for not knowing better.
i like Melissa Harris Perry. and i remember the help interview. i could hear what she was saying was true, and proud and impressed with her ability to see beyond. and i am disappointed she chose this route. thank you for this article. it was informative.
I remember watching an MHP segment on MSNBC after she saw the movie The Help. I use this clip in my classes on racism in media because her passion and eloquence are so deeply felt. She is upset by the movie, and she is almost in tears when she explains how white-produced images of African American women deny the reality of their lives and render invisible the pain and suffering real black domestics endured at the hands of white employers. In another interview, MHP said that her fear was that The Help will become the historical record because of its popularity, and that people who see the movie will come to believe that thats really what happened.
Clearly, MHP understands the power of media images to shape the way people think. If this is true of movies, then it is also true of other media genres, including porn. If MHP is upset at The Help for misrepresenting black womens lives, then what about popular porn sites such as Bad Black Babes, Pimp My Black Teen, or Ghetto Gaggers, or any of the thousands of websites that show black women enjoying sexual degradation at the hands of black and white men? These images, just like the ones in The Help, are part of the media world that creates ideas, attitudes, and beliefs that undermine all womens rights to full equality, dignity, and justice. I didnt expect Taormino or the other guests to take this on, but I did expect a political science professor to be a little more savvy and intellectually inquisitive about how individual and collective perceptions are formed by cultural institutions.
worse, in this segment, MHP went from being an academic to a talk show host, and along the way she compromised her integrity as a feminist.
and welcome to HOF
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Is that why she can't be referenced on DU?
Never heard of her before. I would like to know, before the next Meta thread pops up.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)though, we have to make sure we only use atheists i guess, and people that declare themselves dems.... regardless of the accreditation and work. too hard for me to keep up and google every person that writes every article, looking into the background, beliefs, positions, and where they eat. i am not that good.
who knows... she probably is a christian, like 78% of the citizens, lol. i dont know. didnt do the research. got to find the 2% atheists to use their material. makes it kinda hard.
hlthe2b
(102,294 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)I don't get why it is so hard for some people to understand that the same kind of tactics used by other extremely profitable industries are used by this one.
Somehow, since this one is about sex, its all good and we should only ever pretend its all awesome. It is lunacy.
hlthe2b
(102,294 posts)and welcome.
This is such an important issue--no matter the stance one takes on porn. Not even allowing a feminist voice? Heavens.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Labels notwithstanding, I agree that the issues are what matter.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 5, 2012, 08:11 PM - Edit history (2)
Only the author would be expected to agree with every word, naturally, but SELECTED FACTUAL PARTS are excruciatingly informative. By the way, she's not even close to being a RW fundie according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Dines .Incidentally, extreme porn is illegal in the UK. Dines describes and questions the parameters of legal in the US.
Sections 62 through 67 of the 2008 Criminal Justice Act (UK) makes it a punishable offense, for which one may receive three years in prison, to possess pornography that meets the outlined definition of extreme. Legally, pornography is regard as extreme if any action depicted therein (can) threaten a persons life, results, or is likely to result, in serious injury to..."
It turns out however that as many as 9.5 million UK residents could be guilty of violating this law, or so claims Backlash (the chief opponent of this law)... But in the age of the internet, there exists an ample online supply of such material courtesy of Brazil, Japan, the United States, and a great multitude of European nations...
...Using interviews with hundreds of college-age students, Pornland takes a close look at what it means for young women and men to grow up in such a culture and how it shapes their identities, sexualities, and ideas about intimacy, relationships, and connection.
The way I address this in the book is to ask the reader what would happen if this book were a critique of McDonald's for its exploitive labor practices, its destruction of the environment, and its impact on our diet and health. Would I be accused of being anti-eating or anti-food? I suspect that most readers would understand that the critique was focused on the large-scale impact of the fast-food industry and not the human need, experience, and joy of eating. So I say in the preface that this book should be read as a critique of the industrialization and commodification of sex by corporate predators, and not as an attack on sex itself.
It is this industrial setting that often gets ignored in the heated debates over porn..."
More reviews: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=pornland+gail+dines&pbx=1&oq=pornland+gail+dines&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1421l4577l0l5087l19l16l0l0l0l0l543l3918l0.1.8.1.2.1l14l0&fp=1&biw=1311&bih=526&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&cad=b
Repost from: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2118184#2124639
Recent news: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/04/ira-isaacs-guilty-obscenity.html
The WSJ and NYT have recently hyped a pair of books People Who Eat Darkness (nonfiction) and What Comes Next (fiction). I'd add The Whistleblower (nonfiction) by Kathryn Bolkovac. What do the plots have in common? Making movies/streaming video, illegally, since the sexual violence is real and motivated by psychopathy or money. Very sobering, very thought provoking.
COVER STORY: The Long Night
Tackling the scourge of sex trafficking, from the big screen to the big street
by Paul Hond
Published Fall 2011
With her debut feature, The Whistleblower, director Larysa Kondracki '01GS has sparked a worldwide discussion on human trafficking.
DVD (fictionalized account): http://video.barnesandnoble.com/DVD/The-Whistleblower/Rachel-Weisz/e/24543780502
BOOK (nonfiction, hardcover currently $3.59): http://www.amazon.com/Whistleblower-Trafficking-Military-Contractors-Justice/dp/0230108024/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1326057550&sr=8-5
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I wonder if those who so zealously defend porn and smear every anti-porn feminist as an anti-sex prude delusional fundie who's in bed with the religious right know who he is and don't care, or if they're clueless.
Also this seems so, so, so very hard to get across to people. I wish I knew why.
...Using interviews with hundreds of college-age students, Pornland takes a close look at what it means for young women and men to grow up in such a culture and how it shapes their identities, sexualities, and ideas about intimacy, relationships, and connection.
"One problem I knew I had to deal with as I was writing the book was the inevitable accusation that, because I am anti-porn, I must be an anti-sex prude who is out to police people's sex lives. To criticize porn today is to be seen as criticizing sex, because--thanks to the porn PR machine--porn has now become synonymous with sex. t
The way I address this in the book is to ask the reader what would happen if this book were a critique of McDonald's for its exploitive labor practices, its destruction of the environment, and its impact on our diet and health. Would I be accused of being anti-eating or anti-food? I suspect that most readers would understand that the critique was focused on the large-scale impact of the fast-food industry and not the human need, experience, and joy of eating. So I say in the preface that this book should be read as a critique of the industrialization and commodification of sex by corporate predators, and not as an attack on sex itself.
It is this industrial setting that often gets ignored in the heated debates over porn..."
It seems extremely straightforward and logical to me. Very intuitive. I never needed this explained, and I don't understand why no amount of explaining seems to help some people to grasp this very important distinction.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)crew pretend that feminist are against "pictures of naked people" or "people having sex" as opposed to violent,degrading,misogynistic porn? They can't really defend that porn so they pretend we're talking about all porn and then make the argument that we are prudes,that's how every argument I've seen happens. If we argue that choking a woman by shoving a dick down her throat until she vomits is misogyny,we're portrayed as being against pictures of naked people.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Even if she's not forced to gag, the way the actors often talk to the women in porn is often sickening in and of itself.
And even if the porn looks nice and friendly, there's no guarantee that the woman is being protected. There are regulations but just as with other extremely profitable industries, they are pretty much window dressing.
At least in some rare cases someone notices and actually gives a crap, and people are punished. Those are in the very rare cases though of course. Such as if the woman is actually mentally disabled and brutally tortured for years.
Otherwise? Pfft. Most people just fall back on 'well you signed a contract' and seem to believe that makes anything pornographers put a person through is awesome.
IMO due to the way the industry is run, the way society conditions women, and the way the women are ignored after they exit the industry or if they ever criticize it while still in it... porn is hate propaganda against women.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this would be a clue in for the pro porn people. but it goes right over their head.
to criticize porn is to criticize sex, today. they argue they can disassociate and know that porn is not real life. yet, that they take this position obviously says that porn is tied into their reality fo sex totally proving what people like jansen and dine are saying.
they cannot even disassociate porn from RL sex, proving anti porn to be correct.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)no laws against guns. and if trying to do any reasonable laws then that must mean they want to TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)to the actual argument, to the dehumanizing women, it is the same as the rw.....
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)(really interesting how anti porn women are connected to the pearl clutching fundies, yet i so much hear the rw fundies in these arguments. anyway....)
kids went to a christian school and their boyscouts were connected to the school. at a meeting, an old man that gave me the creeps sat next to me and was telling me how they had their group of teen boys and would bring in a girl so the boys can learn how to interact with a girl. huge WTF. are you telling me that your boys are deprived of sisters, mothers, friends and so isolated from girls they are clueless how to interact. all i could see was one girl with a swarm of guys and ...... eeeew. my kids were not allowed to be alone with this group after this meeting, for other reasons, too. and we soon quit. what does it say that men are so clueless with women, a doll to help. and why do men have all these problems, yet there is no valid concern for the opposite gender with this. (back to reading the article)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)with internet and no control, a girl/women with a smile in front of the camera leaves us totally unaware of what is happening to them behind the camera. we are clueless if the girl is willing or being forced. and with what we are today, it is a given that many are not willing participants.
i was listening to dine on npr and one thing that stuck out in my mind was her saying on the college campuses, it was a norm for girls to have to walk thru the commons with boys on laptops watching hardcore porn making it a hostile environment for our girls.
porn is not only dehumanizing the girls/women in the film, ..... but, it has always been used as a weapon against our girls and women in real life, by men that supposedly love these women.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)CrispyQ
(36,478 posts)The industry & the patriarchy have been very successful in promoting the meme that women who speak out against porn are anti-sex prudes. Too women fall for it too. I think that many women don't really know what passes for porn these days. It's not like the porn I saw in my freshman year in 1975.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and she is one that is dismissed on du. so, i do not use her stuff. the first time, i was attacked for the "source". that was a year or so ago. so i avoided her stuff. what i have since found out is it is anyone that speaks out against porn and there is no acceptable representative, regardless of time, effort or knowledge. so fuck it. i am done trying to wade thru the acceptable source. she is another women that i allowed a small group of men to shift my thinking where i dismissed her and her work because of their issues. no more.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)I found this yesterday while scanning articles at counterpunch.org. The presentation is extremely worthwhile (her early slide of the multi-national food companies is a welcome unexpected stunner), but provocative, too, and definitely made me both wince (late in lecture graphic verbal rebuttals to 3rd wave feminists) and squirm (sociologist's analysis of the culture - what's allowed (defined as hegemony); Marx vs Margaret Thatcher/Reagan on individualism as it relates to class and power (despite annual Davos meetings); inanity of 'choice'). Uses some profanity and anatomic terms. Adult content.
October 03, 2012
Neoliberalism and the Defanging of Feminism
by WEBSITE OF THE DAY
Speaks truth to power.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I saw it posted on facebook yesterday and I meant to watch last night, but with the debate I got busy and sidetracked. Definitely watching it tonight.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)we are told we are not allow to listen to her, or we are rw fundie prudes who hate men and dont like sex. but, then, thinking about it, we are told that about every feminist that does not reinforce lipstick feminism.
thanks for putting this up. i really wanted to hear it. i will do a post after i listen.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)How they spend so much time bashing and lambasting second wave feminists who they simultaneously claim are too far out on the fringe to pay any attention to and are therefore irrelevant.
If they are so irrelevant, why so many threads bashing and tearing them apart?
Curious.
Very... curious.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that would hardly put her in the movement of the 60's and 70's. more like coming on the scene in the 80's which would really make her 3rd wave, right? like so many of us that are told cause of belief it is second wave, when reality, i think most all of us fall into 3rd wave.
but, yes, it is amazing to have a group declare themselves feminists as they dismiss, ridicule, malign, trash so many feminists voice.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)...a feminist mindset, if you will, and not so much a specific period in time.
It is also funny to me that "third wave" feminism is all about women making their own choices and being more inclusive. Unless, of course... you are a second wave feminist.
Second wave feminists are the only women NOT WELCOMED by the third wave.
That is freaking HILARIOUS to me.
"We include everybody, whatever you think is OK because you are all empowered and shit. Oh you think like second wavers? Sit down and shut up."
OMG the hypocrisy is breathtaking. Truly.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lol, truly, it is.
i know what you meant. and that is generally how we use the terminology. i am at the point, where a group and what now seems like a smaller group as women grow up, and we see the results of the new wave, seem to be doing a 180 on what supposed third wave is and they do not get to own third wave. there are way too many young women we have put up in this forum who does not fall under the definition of third wave. they too are feminsits. our young feminist. i see no reason their voice should be silenced and not heard. as a matter of fact, i am hearing these very young "second wave" feminists a hell of a lot more than the lipstick feminist. actually, i really do not like lipstick feminist any more than sex positive terminology. but, they are both in the same group. so i really cant use third wave and not sure the word to use for description.
ismnotwasm
(41,989 posts)The physical harm caused by some what is now mainstream pornography isn't talked about much; you can get a prolapsed rectum, uterus, bladder. Other physical problems. The vanilla porn cable is not what's happening in the porn industry. There is also an extremely disturbing trend using very young looking actors. Young looking as in pseudo-pedophilia.
Yet, vanilla porn is mainstreamed and has its own reality shows Try to point out the underbelly, and its hard to get anyone to listen. Not only is porn a multi-billion dollar industry, it's just as corrupt as any "too big to fail" banking institution, yet the left stays surprisingly silent, many are porn apologists. I've often wondered why.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)personally i think we are going beyond the vanilla porn in some of the cable series you mention. i will have to pay more attention, but i am reading too many shows using rape as entertainment, and sexual torture as entertainment.