Are Modern Men Manly Enough?

[redqueen]

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/07/12/are-modern-men-manly-enough/


I am perversely happy to see men subjected to the same kind of gendered hand-wringing of which women are so familiar: Are men doing what women want?Are they breaking too many gender stereotypes?Are gender non-conforming behaviors shriveling clitorises across America?

But then of course Real Thoughts kick in and they basically amount to: There’s no such thing as a “real man” and this whole “debate” is asinine. There’s only one piece in the series that hits that point (and a second that kind of hints at it). I’m not going to wring my hands too hard over one piece that does to men what dozens of articles do to women every single day, but still: The whole thing is fucked up. It doesn’t present any real “debate.” It’s mostly a group of people whining about how men aren’t sufficiently manly, without any real look at how we’ve constructed masculinity and how our limited views on men’s roles do very real damage to all of us.

Not to make this a Note From Jill’s Boner, but note to men: You do you. Have fun figuring out what “you” even is. There’s nothing inherently wrong with many stereotypically “masculine” characteristics, just like there’s nothing wrong with many traditional “feminine” characteristics. There is something very wrong and very stifling (and frankly very un-sexy, if we’re going to take it there) with being expected to adhere to a certain set of character traits based on what’s between your legs.

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[JustAnotherGen]

1. redqueen

This is excellent!

Everyone click through to the full article.

And this is just beautiful:

There is something very wrong and very stifling (and frankly very un-sexy, if we’re going to take it there) with being expected to adhere to a certain set of character traits based on what’s between your legs.

[redqueen]

5. I love feminist perspectives on the news.

Always so refreshing.

[seabeyond]

2. my sons have always read *gasp* books. OMG. lol. hey.... worse, so many commercials

this is for men. not you "ladies". hey men... look, see, let us tell you want a man is cause you are so confused.

i am seeing so many commercials that are blatantly calling men out to tell them who they are suppose to be. it seems to me with all the effort to tell women, it is much more subtle, just present pictures. with men? they have to hold up huge signs, yell it out.... over here men, look.... i am gonna tell you who you are.

now we just laugh in this house. it will dawn on me what i am hearing in the background and i will ask.... is this another commercial telling you men who you are. and all will giggle, yup. what are they selling??? oh booze. a booze that makes you a man. good to know.

it is a joke in our house

i spend the time kicking aside the societal conditions and let the boys figure it out all on their own. it works for them.

[Rex]

10. I hate those 'manly' commercials

allow me a little rant if you will...what the HELL is it I am supposed to be ready for (old spice) or why is it we men have to be 'perfect' for when the 'time is right'. What time? What is it with 'manly' and men always being 'on'? What the fuck is that?

ARGH...if I see another fucking commercial with slow moving people, smiling and sitting in a (pair) of bathtubs...watching the ocean on the beach...well I won't actually puke, but virtually I am already cleaning up the mess.

I actually hate the idea of 'manly'.

[seabeyond]

13. the music on all those erection commercials ALWAYS draws my attention away from my book

my hubby has the tv on and i am reading a book. i will look up, drawn to the music and try to figure out what they are selling. then the forever realization, a damn erection commercial. now, when i put book down, hubby lets me know off the bat what it is, realizing what i am doing.

i am seeing more and more commercials telling men who they are. yes, they are bothersome to me. why the need? i ask sons, are you so confused about your gender, you need a commercial to lay out what being a man is? i find them offensive, harmful and absurd.

not to mention the erection commercial for my boys when they were like 8 and 10 watching history channel. i HATED what they were teaching my boys. we would have to have conversation about that shit, when it was not particularly age appropriate.

[Scuba]

16. Do you think they choose that music on purpose?

[seabeyond]

17. i am sure they do. i figure they gotta cause it so consistently makes me put down the book.

that is my gripe. lol

on edit... one of my MANY gripes about those commercials. i have lots of them.

[Rex]

18. YES, everything you said!

It is offensive, harmful and absurd. I find it to be BUFFOONERY to spend trillions of dollars so men can be 'ready', while one in every four children in America live below the poverty line.

All this effort so we men can have an erection is high buffoonery to me.

When the 'mood' is right....

AND if a fellow gent suffers from PE or DE or whatever they call it, I have NO DOUBT said gentlemen is more then capable in finding a doctor that can help out. Like the Hair Club for Men, it is not hard to find and become a member.

Do we really need CNN and ABC telling us (and our children as they watch TV too) how we should BE and ACT with their snake oil salemen?

No, I think not and it is embaressing imo.

[seabeyond]

20. " it is embaressing imo." yes. it is. a point i immediately pointed out to my guys.....

women have been having to suck it up with our ego for a lifetime and told it is not a big deal. this is the one and only time with men where they feel a little, just a tad of what women are regularly subjected to. that is the only point where i actually applaud the ads, while totally on boys/mens side.

[seabeyond]

3. a conversation i just had with two sons. i told them, love it, what a hoot.

sons is dating a girl whose father is a policeman. he saw the number on caller id, jolted him, then realized it was him using the phone to call home which took us into conversation.

he said fathers overly protect their daughters for life. he is seeing a lot of it with parent protection of girls, lately. it has been something we talked about.

i told him yes... it is something we have got to let go of. it is the whole ownership of girl "thing". father ownership until he hands over to husband. BUT.... on the other hand, all my BOYS life i have been very protective of their environment, too. that is called parenting. and as a society what we see is we say, oh they are boys.... let them do whatever, and watch them get fucked up.

so it is really interesting that as a parent, you parent, but dont do the two role play of ownership of girls, and allow boys to be little men in their teenage years.

my youngest says, ..... he was thinking the same thing as i talked about overprotection/ownership of the girl thing.

anyway, just fun.

[MadrasT]

4. Not being a parent, it is presumptuous of me to say,

But it seems like (some?) (many?) parents are overprotective with girls (the "ownership" thing) and deny them agency, and too hands off with boys. I love hearing your stories about your boys because you are so thoughtful about your role and relationship with them.

[seabeyond]

6. you said it better than i did.

parents are overprotective with girls (the "ownership" thing) and deny them agency, and too hands off with boys.

but yes, this is where we bottom lined it to.


i was talking to youngest son yesterday about tosh (well, both boys, but this is about youngest). he was saying, but there is nothing i can do as one person to fix the rape issue. i told him, no, there is not anything you can do, but, it is about awareness, knowledge, understanding, and when you are sitting in a group with a comedian and he tells a rape joke.....

son says, i wont be one of the ones laughing.

exactly, i say.

i listen to so many men say, what do you want from me. am i suppose to feel guilty. i cant do anything.

it is all in the awareness, knowledge and understanding. that makes us a better person. that is all.

and that means, communication, listening, thinking.

i am a BIG fan of those three.

[eridani]

19. No, you don't have to "feel guilty"

You just have to acknowledge what is going on. If you are white, you need to do this with white privilege. It isn't about feeling guilty, but about being aware of what is going on. If you are aware, hundreds of daily options for doing something about it in a small way will immediately present themselves.

[seabeyond]

7. ah, and this also takes me to the point of saying.

i would suggest that we talk more about the health, balance, authenticity of our boys/men in this forum than any of the other forums together. i have bee hearing of late that we do not care about the men. i think that is such bullshit, not true and terribly offensive. i have done more OPs on our boys and their health than everyone put together in a forum where this should be a focus.

i want nothing but the BEST for our boys and men. without their health (not to mention i just want them happy) our girls and women will not be ok, either. we are a whole. we cannot separate and be ok.

[redqueen]

11. I think the disingenuousness of that accusation speaks for itself.

You'd have to be a drooling moron to think the people here in this group don't care about boys. It's just one of a long list of baseless accusations.

[seabeyond]

14. You'd have to be a drooling moron to think the people here in this group don't care about boys.

i think so, too. but, since it is a big part of y day and a 17 yr journey for me with my boys and 18 yrs with my marriage and a lifetime with my father and brothers, i think it is highly offensive and insulting, too.

[redqueen]

8. Being too strict and controlling or too hands off isn't the best, for any child.

It's tough being a parent, and recognizing where the line is. It's so important though.

[seabeyond]

9. yes... except i find there is a lot of forgiveness or leeway if there is a strong connection

the intent of doing right, and continual open communication. then the need to be perfect is no more. but, yes, you are right.

on the one hand i think we can say it is hard. on the other, i really dont see it as such, if trust and respect is a foundation.

[redqueen]

12. Trust and respect go both ways, though.

It's very common, way too common, to treat kids like property, or have a very strict, disciplinarian attitude.

And then there's the other all too common method of not giving a crap so long as the police aren't involved and the kids leave the parents alone.

It's not so much that its super complicated to learn to do things differently than the way you were brought up, its just that so often its not even questioned. Just the way things are, again.

[seabeyond]

15. i generally make clear that respect HAS to go both ways, or it is not there.

from the youngest of age with my boys, we have had discussion how it was a two way street. they get it. and it works well for us. but you are right, and this is another of my issues, respect will NEVER be a one way street.

and that is why all this garbage of today, ..... men loving their porn and objectification and even saying, my wife is ok with it.... doesnt cut it for me. cause even if we play in it or keep mouth shut, there is a disrespect toward a gender going on. it will manifest one way or another. cannot have it a one way street.

thanks redq, very good point and i love this stuff. even if not right on. the exploration of it.