How to spot a misogynist

[seabeyond]

1. If you want to see real oppression, go to the Middle East.

The problems here are threefold. First, it implies women in the west should be grateful for the benevolence of their natural overlords. Who cares if 1 in 3 of you will experience sexual assault in your lifetime, while also enjoying the privilege of lower pay than your male counterparts and the symbolic annihilation of yourselves in literature and film? In case you didn’t know, women in Afghanistan are being stoned to death. So why don’t you just go ahead and submit your complaint to the STFU file known as my PENIS?

2. How can women expect us to respect them when they won’t respect themselves?

When Sheik Al-Hilali compared scantily clad women to uncovered meat, we were rightly outraged. In Australia, we yelled, we don’t treat women like that! Except that we do. We use clothing and behaviour to provide excuses for sexist everyday, be they rapists or simply the kind of people who think a woman’s right to be afforded a basic level of dignity is contingent upon how much of her skin she’s revealing. The fact that we criticize other cultures for it doesn’t make us champions of women – it makes us both sexist AND racist.

*

4. It’s a science thing

“Look, men and women are built differently. It’s biological. Men are more visual, women are more emotional. That’s why more men are in executive roles. It’s about merit. If women were better, they wouldn’t be so crap. I didn’t make the rules.”

5. Men are oppressed too, therefore women aren’t! Or something.

‘If feminists really cared about equality, they’d be addressing all the inequality that faces men. Like, why do feminists only care about breast cancer and not prostate cancer? Why aren’t feminists advocating for single dads? Why won’t women sleep with me when I’m a really nice guy and I’ve made a particular effort to be nice to them, particularly? Until feminism can answer that, I’m afraid I don’t really see it as being legitimate.”

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/how-to-spot-a-misogynist-20120430-1xueh.html

[Broderick]

1. I don't think it is all mutually exclusive

Just my opinion. In many respects, if the list of items are to deflect from or to criticize feminism in the free world then perhaps, but one can show concern for some of these in addition to respecting the movement and not be a misogynist.

[boston bean]

2. The use in this context is to deflect from and to critize feminism.

It is not a fair thing to do, to try and take a point that was made and twist it into something else entirely.

What is described is not your second scenario. And in effect is diminishing feminist concerns.

[Broderick]

4. The way it is worded if someone said it, I totally agree. It's typical responses to deflect.

But the bullet points (in general context) and why I said it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive is because I think discussion and concerns can be addressed on these topics but if used to deflect and criticize as said is misogynist. I could have been clearer. One and Five in particular. Because I have been through the court systems in family court decades ago as a parent and several decades earlier as a child, I have discussion points on that topic. I have my concerns on some levels there, yet I would never equate it to feminism or correlate it to that, or use it as a deflection albeit I see it as a valid topic. On the Middle East, number 1, I have severe concerns about how women are treated and the recent video from Reuters on the execution of a woman was disturbing as an example. I think it is valid discussion topic, but there again it has little to do or nothing to do with the feminist movement here and cannot be used to invalidate concerns and misogyny. Discussion, in my opinion, doesn't mean it has to be anything about any feminist movement and should not be used to deflect and criticize.

[seabeyond]

6. a decade ago, talking to my FIL, he told a sexist joke in front of my young boys. this has become a

norm a game for him. was with him this weekend and the theme was.... men dont listen to women. but, back then, i did not know him so well. i called him out on the sexist joke, stating i did not want my boys to learn and accept that attitude as a norm. his reply?

you should feel lucky being in the u.s. (shut up), women in other parts of the world have it much worse. (be grateful we are so nice to you).

my husband is so not his father. that really did kinda shock me. i told him.... other parts of the world is irrelevant and i wont keep my mouth shut. and dont say that shit in front of my boys. i will call it out each and every time. and over the years, i have called it out each and every time.


these are used on women repeatedly to shut them up. if it is not misogyny, what is it.

[Broderick]

7. The guy has a problem

Clearly that is a man caught in a time warp to the wrong century. Curious to what his response was to your response which I think was very direct and very good. It would be my guess that he treats all women that way (edit to add), and in his limited circles it may be effective unfortunately. I have seen this, even in my own family with Uncles and such.

[seabeyond]

9. the response is, to always welcome me into their family embrace with a sexist comment,

each and every visit.

MIL actually told him, after 18 yrs, to not tell a particular joke, interrupting him. she told him i do not like it. duh. but, she has also made it clear she is not "pc". that goes along with racism (they found out they had black blood a generation back) and homophobia (two sons came out a year after hubby and i got married) and pull them up by the bootstrap kinda of conservative.

regardless, it is a norm. and used often. by many. of all ages.

[Broderick]

15. As an aside to the "all ages"

I noticed something like that in young guys coming out of tech school or high school that come in for jobs and such. I hear things that make my eyes roll at times and I know it's likely discussed ad nauseam in other threads, but I think a lot of these guys live and breath the video game world, and are exposed to countless porn availability for free. Even TV has changed quite a bit, all sex and violence. The terms they use to describe the girlfriend, or "baby momma", or women in general is disturbing. We didn't talk like that to be reflective of my past when I was that age.

[seabeyond]

18. cant remember the articles i just put up, lol, but

i did run into one in particular, but three discussing this very thing. the connection of the sexism in the video games influencing sexism in our young guys. it is the first study that has come out on this. there wasnt much info, so i left it alone. and another article addressing this in the video game and culture. there might be a little of that in the article i put up on the New Misogyny. maybe not. i read so much. but, that is interesting that you mention it now.

what i have learned broderick, is being a parent (both parents, mom and dad) influences the kids significantly. it is not innate. it is learned. i see how much my boys get it. even beyond me, with their young brains and so aware. and my oldest will talk to me often about it.

[Broderick]

21. We all do the best we can with our children

In our case we teach values and control their exposure to outside influences that can be contrary to what our home is like. Best we can. You can't protect from everything, and at 3 and 4 they are going into a good private pre-school in which they will attend all their years at. Hoping it will have less of the worst I see in the public schools but influences are coming - we know. With my oldest, it was a difficult endeavor because my ex was so polar opposite and she married the quintessential misogynist in hindsight as I look back. She, my daughter, turned out okay though and is doing well in college and has a good head on her shoulders for the most part although I fear her boyfriend uses her as a sex object and controls her a bit. I frown on all the tattoos she has acquired (at his behest I think), which some are quite sexual in nature, but it is her body. Just a father's sigh at this point.

But I have noticed this latest generation being quite different, more detached from feelings and more detached from reality and quite a bit more advanced in sexuality. As another aside I find it extremely disturbing that several women that work for me, struggling with single parenthood, find it necessary not to inflame the father of their children by requesting child support. I can't for the life of me understand it at all and it's mainly with the younger females.

[seabeyond]

22. We all do the best we can with our children

i use to say this. i actually believe that at the time, we did the best we were capable of. so at the least, i could say this. but, i dont agree with this now. so often we have become a selfish and self absorbed person. and that is not parenting. it cannot be. i see so often where the child is put in the background for the parents own wants, needs and desire. that is not parenting to me. and i believe there is too much of this in our world today.

my kids started out in private, too. they were sensitive. being told repeatedly what boys were, and mine did not fit, i labeled them that. my oldest was very articulate and mannered and in order. even at the young age of 4 and 5. glasses, slim. i had heard so much about public, i put them in private. though, all we have are religious private.

it was tops in academics though. what i found. there was more bullying than what i ever saw in public. the academics were not superior to public, if the kids took school seriously and the parent was on top of it. i pulled kids out of private when oldest was in 4th, and got them into one of the better publics, out of district. smart decision.

not telling you what you should do. i am thrilled kids went to private for the first handful of years for other reasons.

it all worked the way it should. i am just saying, public isn't what i have had and still have people say. parents have way more influence over the kids than peers.

it does not matter how much control i have over the crap in my kids life, and i had a lot, they cannot get away from it in so many ways. so when people condescendingly tell me it is not good to not let kid see the real world (or whatever) i tell them there is no way to protect them from all. they get more than enough of the garbage in their life in so many ways. what i have found is we HAVE TO have so many different conversations about stuff today, we never needed as kids, way before a kids time. it is a none stop discussion of the adult world that is continuously fed into our kids life. and these conversations take up a lot of the parenting time, to bring things into perspective, like never before in the past.

that is when i come to.... parents that dont parent. let the kids flounder in the adult world and then wonder why the kids are fucked up.

dont ever stop talking to the older daughter, what you see. i tell my father regularly, because of who he is, and what he gave me, allows me to make the choices i have. he has always been there and helped me along. fathers are the best for daughters.... so very important.

my kids and i have discussed the lack of empathy and desensitizing in their world today. this is an example of what i am talking about above. we use to have communities as a whole promoting this. confirmation to the parental teaching. now, not so much. so it is mainly on the parents shoulder. it is definitely a reality, but it does not have to be a truth.

this was such a good post broderick. i wanted to take some time thinking about it before posting. thanks for allowing me to go in this direction and able to discuss this stuff.

[Broderick]

23. Great post - lots of food for thought. Lots.

Out of district. Yeah, that is a problem here. Can't do that and the school systems where we live are woefully poor. Just watching the kids waiting for the bus and the lack of respect is disturbing to say the least. I refuse to put my kids into a private religious school. We did tour some, but I get an eerie feeling and when we walked by one of the preschool rooms I saw a big paper tombstone with a artfully drawn grinning child with the note "thou shalt not kill" below it. That was just one example of something I felt uncomfortable with. I wasn't impressed with the teachers either. That is why we choose an academy, though it costs more; it seems very stringent on the basics of reading, writing, math, science, ect. It has 5 stars and a great graduation rate and very impressive placement into top colleges. I don't like the indoctrination at the religious private schools and the way they talked to us just gave me the creeps. Not against religion at all, but it was just strange to me how they push religion first and some of those conversations and decisions will be theirs down the road anyway. Seemed the school admins were more interested in getting us to be members of the church to be honest.

We spend a lot of time discussing things with the kids, and this includes my daughter often. I don't agree with a lot of what happens in her life and the only thing I can do is give my input and perspective on things. I don't want to risk alienating her by coming down on her for some decisions she makes. She is an adult. Lectures are the running joke between us. "Dad, is this a short lecture or a long one?" LOL. I am grateful she didn't run out and get pregnant like so many of her old friends, and I am grateful she is focused on college and her future career. I am happy she finally ran her course for her decision to go through art college, and now has moved on and is getting a more suitable degree to build upon. I supported the art degree she went for though, even if I didn't think it would give her the career they told her it would. The art degree was a fruitful one in that she loves art and is quite artistic, but finding employment in that field was a whole nother thing.

Thanks for your post and the discussion.

[seabeyond]

26. i had never been around religion much. didnt scare me, lol

when i first registered oldest, the top dude called me up that night. told me, i didnt fill out a church. i told him, i do not go to church for a handful of reasons. he told me, i gotta, the rules. i told him no. you do not want my son?

he then suggested that is cheat a little, put a name down, with the intent that in time i would go to church as a family.

i told him

no

i was not gonna lie. and especially not about this.

he took my kid.

but, i hear ya. that is what i am saying. i was glad we were in there for 6 yrs. prek to 4th. we learned so much about religion. i would have never experienced and never had the understanding. it gave me massive opportunity for exploration and discussion with children. massive. and, when i pulled them out, it was time. enough.

[Broderick]

27. That was one of like the first questions we got

Which church do you and your children belong to. Answer - none. And then you get sold the goods on how great the "fellowship" is and how "wonderful the congregation is". "blood of the lamb" this, "devotion to Jesus that", etc. We are here to talk about the kids and education. lol

[boston bean]

8. Thing is no one here was saying that women in other countries do not face misogyny and to discuss

that in context without deflecting misogyny others face, is of course acceptable.

I wonder why someone would need to make the distinction? Especially since the context of this post is clearly not calling people who do this in the fight for womens rights all over, are misogynists.

[Broderick]

11. I just thought some of the subject matter

could be in discussion without the context of feminism and doesn't necessarily mean one is a misogynist hence the distinction. No intentional derail at all, but merely my opinion that threaded in the mind. I had just watched that video the other day of the women getting shot and I ought not have watched that because it is still in my mind as a large disturbance. I am married to a very successful woman, who is a feminist although it is merely in the way she conducts her life. She puts up with nothing, and would be the first to say how can you segue from one concern to the next because the subject at hand is what is being discussed. So I get your point.

[seabeyond]

13. i actually thought about that as i was posting, BUT....

i also told myself, this is talking about a particular subject, feminism, so it stands.

i get a lot of times, in articles i read, that it may not pertain to feminism, exclusively. but, it fits the subject at hand and is info to have.

[Broderick]

16. Yeah

I kind of derailed a bit with where my mind was. Didn't mean to. I worry about the label and wouldn't want to be erroneously labeled one because I feel I am far from it. I may not understand it all but I am conscience of it nonetheless and can spot the obvious and definitely if used to dismiss and to deflect someone's concerns it is clear tactics you pointed out.

[seabeyond]

19. see, i will agree here, too. i often see misogyny used, .... and i just pulled the title off

copy and paste. i dont play with titles. i keep them true, regardless. then i am consistent. (i digress). but, i do feel we will slap on misogyny (HATE women which is awfully strong to me) when it is a conditioned behavior that i do not think includes hate.

[redqueen]

24. That reminds me of all the "but I'm not a racist!" excuses.

No, you don't have to hate ethnic minorities to use racist language, but the language used is still hateful to minorities.

It's easy to avoid using hateful slurs and being dismissive towards issues which oppressed groups face. Don't do it and you won't be called on it.

[seabeyond]

25. yup. lol. nt

[redqueen]

3. Which of these do you think warrant concern?

I do see the point that it might not be fair to slap the misogynist label on someone because they hold any of these views, just as the fact that someone thinks such things about ethnic minorities and their issues probably wouldn't think they deserve to be called a racist.

[Broderick]

5. I kind of explained myself up above your post in response to another poster

[MadrasT]

10. #4 and #5

I hear variations of those all the time.

Along with "Feminists' problem is that they don't care about how men are oppressed! Whatabout the MEN!!?!!!"

I have never had a conversation about feminism with my BF that did not turn into hostility and "WHATABOUT THE MEN!!!! WOE!!!! WOE!!!"

The other one I hear ALL THE TIME is how, "It's all fixed now, more women are graduating college than men. It's all over. It's changing. You women are there. We don't need to worry about your (silly) complaints anymore."

Then I point to our mostly male Congress, mostly male state governors, mostly male CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, an all male panel advising Congress about birth control, and say "When was the last time anybody made a law about what you can or cannot do with your male body?"



"but but but MORE WOMEN IN COLLEGE!!!!"

[seabeyond]

12. true

and really, i thought this was pretty simple and not thought provoking because it is so pervasive. i figured it could be for people that really know nothing about the subject. i really did not think that it had anything controversial in it.

[MadrasT]

17. Printed the article.

It is going home with me for sharing.

[seabeyond]

20. madrast

you know how much i love my man, and how damn impressed i am with him, and how good he is, good strong character. lol. right? you know this. BUT

i get the same from him.

[sufrommich]

14. That whole "what about men" bullshit reminds

me of the "what about white students" assholes who are angry about college minority admissions. White people are being discriminated against!!