anti porn vs 1st amendment feminist. new division created.

[seabeyond]

i am now seeing this expressed by a couple three fellow feminist. i would like to address it before it becomes an untrue fact. it is just my guess it is incorrect and i would like to find out thru a poll.

i am anti porn or so i will be told, whatever that may mean. i will also defend the right to make and watch porn, though, i will also discuss the harm being done to women without their consent in the industry and the effects on men, women, relationships, children and society as a whole. i will also defend KKK's right to speech along with MRA.

i am hearing often that there are women on this board that want laws to ban porn. i have not heard any woman state we should ban porn. there may be. i may be surprised. but, i dont think discussing harm porn may cause means i am against the first amendment right and since it is something i have, without contradiction, stood up for, i would really like that known before another untruth becomes a truth.

5 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	1st amendment feminist; porn causes no harm
	2 (40%)
	anti porn; BAN it.
	0 (0%)
	anti porn; 1st amendment feminist; will discuss possible harm of porn
	1 (20%)
	luvs my porn. me me me. leave my porn alone.
	2 (40%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[zazen]

1. read MacKinnon, Dworkin, & Stoltenberg on this

This has been debated since the late 70s. I don't accept the binary of pro/anti-pornography, or the claim of sexual liberals that I'm trying to violate the first amendment.

The civil legislation proposed and knocked down in the 80s framed pornography as a violation of civil rights. I think that legislation, revised to include the three-pronged exclusion for art/education, could still guide us now, though our powers against the corporate state (including international brokers of vicious pornography) are even more abridged now than they were in the 80s.

Most pornography is a harm, either committed in the creation or committed in its usage as public harassment or the training manual for sexual abuse, and those actions are not protected speech. They are actions. There are plenty of civil harms that could be reframed as speech by the defendants, but no one takes that seriously. If a gang beats up an immigrant and calls him a wet***k, and films it, that would be evidence used in a court of law for a hate crime. If the group sold the film, its profits would probably be recoverable by the victim. Making the harm a tort isn't prior restraint. People can shout fire in a crowded theatre. We don't restrain them in advance. But it's legally actionable (as a crime and civilly, in that case) and if that has a chilling effect, so be it.

I really recommend you get ahold of MacKinnon's short book, Only Words. If that's too dense (and it can be) then Dworkin (google Nikki Craft's site or get Letters from a War Zone) and Stoltenberg (Refusing to be a Man) have more powerful visceral arguments.

[seabeyond]

2. what i have found here on du, certain women that dont fall in line with some, are rejected. yes....

i need to read about these women instead of dismissing them because others on du has rejected them, all their work and what they stand for. thank you for the title of those books.

i appreciate how you framed your argument. i cannot see any way to get a handle of what is happening to our women in the industry any more than the harm to society but education. but, thank you for this slight deviation that makes it not so black and white.

i listened to a video of mackinnons speaking. there is nothing out there about the woman. and everything about her being accomplished, successful, damn smart, and a lifetime of helping and supporting women.

[redqueen]

3. Can't say it any better than you just did.

So +1

[Little Star]

5. Thank you for those recommendations.

[whathehell]

6. I've read both MacKinnon and Dworkin, don't know Stoltenberg

but if you've ever read "Against Our Will" by Susan Brownmiller, you would

know that she had a lot to say about porn too...She did, in fact, call a Feminism on Pornography

conference (I'm not sure if that was the exact title) in the late seventies which I attended.

In addition, she set up an Anti-Pornography group in New York which lasted for awhile, but was,

I think, eventually beaten down by the First Amendment Absolutist Feminists.

Her group was known for getting women in groups to "tour" as it were, the "adult bookstores"

of the time, with the goal of letting women know EXACTLY how hideous and violent much of porn

is (this was back in the late 70's, early 80's, so you can imagine it hasn't improved)

To their horror, women on these tours, found racks with titles like "Mutilation"

and other outrages of that sort. I never went on one of the tours, but I heard all about them.

One of Brownmiller's observations was that the owners of these porn stores AND the almost all

male clientele, were made quite uncomfortable when the women came in...At times the owners would

ask them to leave.



I like both Dworkin and Mackinnon and I thought they made great arguments.

[Little Star]

7. Great post. Thanks!

[whathehell]

8. You're welcome, Little Star.

I'm glad you liked the post...If you have any questions,

let me know.

[seabeyond]

10. this is what gets me. when i get pissed about the pornification i see and say something outloud

i will be told just is the way it is, and not a big deal. if i go on to discuss all the shit that is available in our home, what movies and hbo series are normalizing, how the porn women are treated, how it is effecting people and more... actually tell about the porn itself, they have never seen i hear

no, dont tell me. i dont want to hear. eeeew, eeeew. that is so bad. i dont want it in my head

and i look at them and say, you a grown adult cant handle even listening to it but have no interest in the kids being fed this garbage.

ignorance makes no sense to me.

[redqueen]

11. "just the way it is"...

You reminded me of a cartoon... had to start an OP for it.

[seabeyond]

12. cool. nt

[redqueen]

4. Love the ad. It's one of those that NOW would decry

But that many 'modern' feminists would enjoy.

[MadrasT]

9. That ad is appalling.

I am speechless.

How does anybody think that is OK?

[whathehell]

13. Have you ever read the "No Comment" section in Ms. Magazine?

I've seen FAR worse than that.

P.S. If you've never seen the "no comment" section, it's where they

collect insulting ads from all over the magazine spectrum and show

how backwards and/or flat out hostile and insulting they are.

[MadrasT]

17. No I have not.

I have also seen worse ads... I guess every time I see another ad in the "dehumanize and objectify women" vein, it makes me go WTF all over again.

I will check that out someday when I have some extra energy to be pissed.

[whathehell]

20. Oh yeah...I've seen stuff that made my blood boil!

and when I feel like that I HAVE to complain to the originator

or anyone who tells me I'm "exaggerating" the hostile male

messages emanating from porn and what could simply

be called "anti-female propaganda"...That's what Brownmiller

called it thirty plus years ago

P.S. I also know about needing "some extra energy to be pissed".

from what might be called "outrage fatigue", so take your time.

[seabeyond]

18. i had plenty to choose from, and there are lots out there. just what i was feeling with this

post.

i hear ya.

[whathehell]

19. Yeah, I get it.

but I'm just wondering from your last post, Seabee..What people were

you talking about when you mentioned stuff in the house

and people saying "that just the way it is"?

I'm just wondering, 'cause it wasn't real clear.

[seabeyond]

21. you were talking about walking the women thru the porn shops

Last edited Wed Jul 4, 2012, 12:31 AM - Edit history (1)

they did not get how degrading the shit is and the woman did an education tour.

when talking about the misogynist or sexist ads we see, or something on tv, or a behavior, i will often get a shrug of shoulder. or when talking about what is on the net and my concern for our youth and our girls especially. a lot of people i know really do not mess with puter much, or look at this shit or know about this shit.

so when i tell them what is really in our homes like never before in the past, they do not want to hear it. what my kids are learning too early and why. that schools have to teach. bumperstickers. commercials. the fuckin news, lol. it takes the adults beyond their comfort zone. my father will say, they are boys. so i will tell him about the porn, and the lyrics in the song, and he is all..... stop stop. hey, boys will be boys. surely you can hear it from your daughter.

i am visiting my in laws in a couple days. the last time was in nov, in new orleans. i told them i do not want my family walking bourbon street. and the other kids should not have to either. a couple teen girls and 9 yr old boy.

i had two brother in laws come to me in that trip and said how bad the street had gotten. i had asked many people on du and everyone suggested i keep the kids off bourbon. plenty to do. we were there three days without walking bourbon street and had a wonderful time.

father in law had to manipulate and have 19 people walk down bourbon. the 13 yr old girl is chanting, keep head down. my son is trying to make her feel better, face almost on sidewalk. 16 yr old girl had her 9 yr old brother telling him, keep head down. look at sidewalk. hubby and oldest son that was behind them, didnt realize. hubby was looking at gps. looks up and oh fuck.... your mom is gonna be pissed. my oldest son. yup. (i found all this out after)

i am two blocks back, walking slowly with a 80 yr old women, see the XXX and a WTF!!!!!

asshole.

he is an old fuckin man that is not gonna have some uppity woman tell him what to do.

he could have said, hey, we are going down bourbon. those that want to come, lets go. the others can take royale. but, he was the man.

i caught up with the group, and took mine out of the group and we walked to the restaurant to meet up. and the reason was, everyone knew how i felt. worse, everyone kept their mouth shut. respect, differing views were not allowed. the trash was forced on us when we said no. and the girls learned

keep your fuckin mouth shut, what you have to say does not matter, put your head down and feel the shame and humiliation while the men strut down the fuckin street being entertained by the naked girls because it is a mans world.

i was so pissed.

and i am not unpissed yet.

i was the only adult willing to stand up for the girls and speak out and say, if i dont want to walk in the trash, YOU should respect that.

i could not imagine the men in my life being so disrespectful

and that, is a rant that probably does not belong in this post. totally irrelevant. but as i say, i am seeing them in a few days.

[redqueen]

24. That was a righteous rant.

You are spot fucking on.

It is indefensible that anyone would think such treatment is tolerable, but it's like you said, most people just don't want to deal with it.

[seabeyond]

25. cowards.

all of them

[RainDog]

14. there's nothing new about the division

It began long ago and came to a head with the rulings against the MacKinnon/Dworkin attempts to redefine free speech as a civil rights issue.

They lost every one of those fights.

also - you mentioned that you replied with info from police on another thread and no one responded - but I did. I said that you needed to go an extra step before you could claim that rape had not declined, as various rape prevention and awareness organizations claimed. Not reporting all rape does not mean that rape has not declined. It may mean that the percentages are not correct - but it doesn't mean rape has increased.

to merely post claims that rapes had been under reported does not undo the claim that rapes have decreased. I don't know the data on that but I will take the word of rape crisis and prevention organizations, who have no vested interest in claiming rape has decreased, over someone trying to make an argument on DU. Not to say the argument isn't true - it's simply not proven.

If you don't want to ban or censor free speech - good for you. If you just want to rail about porn - whatever. Knock yourself out. Just don't attack others who find problems with your arguments or claims.

[seabeyond]

15. dworkin is not the issue. the issue of you defining who we are, regardless of what we say

is the issue. this is not about dworkin or decades ago.

this is about you claiming 1st amendment feminists as if we do not stand up for the first amendment. it is a non truth i would like to nip in the ass. kinda like claiming sex positive as if those that dont agree are sex negative. again, not gonna own that one and not gonna let you define who i am and what i believe.

[boston bean]

16. many rape crisis centers do not feel it has decreased so drastically...

What are you reading?

[JNathanK]

22. Yah, its stupid to think that being anti-porn means you want the government to ban it.

Its really just a defense mechanism from porn addicts who don't want you to criticize them in any way.

[seabeyond]

23. that is the truth of it. nt