I'm pissed off at people who pass up chances to share honest opinions.

[redqueen]

Why is if that among other women, most women will speak their minds about feminist issues, but some of those same women, when they are in the company of men, will censor themselves and not share any criticisms about those same subjects?

What exactly is such constricted communication supposed to accomplish, aside from continuing our nurturing duty to not upset the men?

Edit to clarify that I don't mean in every situation. I don't expect people to challenge everyone, every time a sexist comment is made or there is wh opportunity to challenge sexism. (Hell if we did that we'd have time for little else!)

I mean in places like DU, on facebook, just spending time with friends... places where you'd expect people to speak their minds

[Warpy]

1. Perhaps it's a reluctance to suffer verbal abuse

from men who don't like what a woman is telling them.

[Waltons_Mtn]

2. That could be.

But then are those kind of men really worth talking to in the first place?

[rfranklin]

3. No, they are less than human...

they should be made to wear dog collars and live in small sheds in the back yard.

[redqueen]

8. Please note what group you're in.

Also:

[redqueen]

7. No, they are not. nt

[redqueen]

6. Yeah, that reminds me again of something I saw on facebook...

"There is a cost associated with being opposed to sexism which most people do not have the courage to endure."

It has to change though. We need more people speaking out, not going along to get along.

[SoutherDem]

4. I see this happen too

While I am a gay man I am often thought of as being "one of the girls" (so sexism intended).

I know many women who will be open and honest in my presents but that changes in the company of other men. For some it seems to be not wanting the abuse, while other don't want confrontation.

But, I see this in others too. I see outspoken gays clam up in some circumstances and the same for liberals and even Christians (who are open minded in the presents of fundamentals).

I do think those who are less open minded are also the most verbally abusive to those with other opinions and will attempt to control the conversation even if it takes interrupting with a loud voice if someone doesn't agree.

[redqueen]

9. And if you're forced to interact with them I get it ...

I stifle myself in certain situations.

I'm referring to voluntary, social interaction, even in 'progressive' forums such as this site (such as it is)... still with the stifling.

Discussions here should be open enough to share those ideas. The fact that we don't see more of it here speaks volumes about just how progressive and woman-friendly DU is.

[SoutherDem]

11. Just my opinion

I do stifle myself here sometimes. There are subjects which are taboo. But, sometimes it is political correctness in reverse.

I am occasionally asked to server on a jury in which the action in question is one of those taboos. While those are usually not hidden, it still clear some want to limit the free discussion.

When I first joined DU I was very nervous to post because in some of my first posts what I thought was acceptable created out cries by many, although I have yet to have anything hidden by a jury, but I certainly "put my elbows on the table". I have even been accused of being a troll for suggesting a compromise on a subject.

[redqueen]

13. Yeah, the key difference being

that centrist / more conservative views and ideas are not scarce. Feminist views and ideas, on the other band...

[seabeyond]

15. after that horrible conservation that i am still thinking about...

my youngest said, people across the nation just dont talk about politics and womens issues like you do.

i told him

the right certainly is. how the fuck do you think they have been able to take us back to before the womens movements in the 70's. they certainly are talking about these issues. it is the apathy of our youth that is allowing this.

[redqueen]

18. And the fear / complacency / cowardice of our middle aged and elderly. nt

[DonCoquixote]

5. A real man

is not afraid of a woman sharing her opinion.

Granted, if I do not agree with an opinion, I will argue, but frankly, if we become afraid of argument, we become afraid of thinking.

[redqueen]

10. Looking at the feminist movement over the past 20 years...

perhaps that 'fear of thinking' idea explains a lot.

[seabeyond]

12. how easily the most vocal of us fall into it too. as i did with a post

throwing away our feminist women because men have decided those feminist are not worth our discussing.

until it hit me.... wtf am i allowing some man dictate what i discuss. think. listen to. feel.

on a more personal note, i have found that too many people d what it takes to get along. meh... can't change anything. meh... it is the way it is.

i just now had a conversation with my nephews 19 yr old black gf in college getting her psychology degree who isn't voting. not her thing. doesn't matter if obama or someone else. doesn't matter about what is happening with women. none of it matters. i could not believe what i was hearing. but, it is not comfortable either. will she be afraid to come over next time? i know she doesn't care, so i wont talk about it any more. but, so many people aren't into thinking. what do they do with their brains all day.

i dunno. i am very dispirited with the conversation i just had.

[redqueen]

14. That is very sad. nt

[Peregrine Took]

16. Or they laugh after they say something that could be construed as controversial.

That way they head off any possible criticism by implying "I didn't really mean it."

I see young or younger women do this a lot.

[redqueen]

17. So you mean they'll share a feminist criticism as if they were only joking?

If so, that is flipping sad.

[MadrasT]

19. Women grow up with a lot of programming

Programming that tells us we are not supposed to upset people. And especially that we are not supposed to upset men.

The drive for heterosexual females to have men "like" them is a very powerful force. (Mustn't say anything to upset the menz.)

Plus there's the whole aspect of competing with other women (to be the cool, congenial one... the kind of woman that is liked by the menz).

Many women want men to *like* them, so they don't want to be that obnoxious you-know-what that speaks out. (Everybody knows men hate cranky feminists, just look around DU.)

It takes a lot of *courage* to break free from that. (And self confidence, and self acceptance, and not being an affirmation junkie.)

And before you even get to the point of needing *courage*... you need to even see that the problem exists.

(And once you see it, the whole situation is beyond frustrating.)

[seabeyond]

20. i am seeing two threads. one, the continued escalation of hurt, injured women as entertainment and

another of a woman lining out the misogyny in our computer games being attack relentlessly with internet persona. both of those should be a wake up call to the underlying issues. not to mention a thread on our history of feminism and women in feminism being co-opted by our male feminist to tell us who we are allowed to read, listen to, evaluate.

(shhhh, i am STILL pissed at a conversation in my house.... all the way around and then some. dont know when i will be unpissed at this one, lol)

[MadrasT]

22. Oh, those are my favorite ones.

The men who try to tell women they are doing feminism *wrong*. (With all the hateful language that goes with conveying their opinion of how *wrong* we wimminz are looking at things.)

Big ol' snork on that.

[redqueen]

21. Ha. You reminded me of this.

http://bluntdelivery.com/2009/05/06/why-i-hate-women-oh-let-me-count-the-ways/

So typical of the 'I'm not like those other women' type. Uggggggh.

[JustAnotherGen]

23. Amen

To it all.

Sometimes I find myself asking - Self? Why not just sit in a chair one the corner and be a good little girl?

I always answer - because the people I'm surrounded by would be terribly upset if I eveeeeer behaved myself in the way women are supposed to.