Swiped from GD: Women's Voices in Mass Media (yikes.)

[BlueIris]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002751541

[MadrasT]

1. Thanks for pointing this out.

I missed it in GD.

[seabeyond]

2. as i said in that thread. i would like to see maddows show on this and how well she does.

it may say it all.

[MadrasT]

3. Are you saying that Maddow did a show specifically about

under-representation of women's voices in MSM?

Or are you saying that Maddow's show isn't included in these statistics, and you'd like to see how these statistics would look when specifically applied to Rachel's show?

[seabeyond]

5. two. i would like to see a woman progressive, which maddow actually is, aware of gender issues

which maddow is. i would like to see if the numbers are turned upside down with her show.

now, that is not saying all women would think to have a woman discuss women issues. i can see a lot of women in media totally blindly, without thought, have men as the expert.

[hlthe2b]

4. Heavens that is depressing, but not surprising...

Yet, we have so many that assume women's equality is "a given"... When I hear young women expressing disinterest or disdain for feminism, the women's movement, or politics in general, I really become worried for the future. How is it that with all the (understandable and laudible) emphasis on gay rights toady, that women's equality is given nothing but lip service?

[MadrasT]

6. I was surprised.

And yes, now we have a lot of emphasis on class, race, sexual orientation, and gender identity.

I am glad that there are loud voices speaking up for "the 99%", race-and-nationality issues, gay rights, and transgender rights. I, myself, am a loud voice on gender identity issues and rights, and I will never shut up about that.

But women are getting kicked to the back of the bus (again) and it pisses me off.

[MadrasT]

7. I am adding a comment because my gender identity is perhaps confusing to people

I am female born, but do not identify as "a woman".

I identify as "nongendered", which falls under the big umbrella of "transgender", but I am not F-to-M or M-to-F transgender (which is what most people think of when they hear "transgender&quot .

I care deeply about gender identity because I have felt my whole life like I have been made to be shoved into a gender box that didn't fit me. But I don't fit in the "other box" either. Gender feels like a big role playing game to me. (I also understand that most people very strongly identify as one gender and have no concept of what "nongendered" means.)

Feminism is important to me because since I am in a female body, the world sees me as "woman" and treats me as "woman", and since I am part of the group of people that the world "sees as woman" (even if I don't internally identify that way), I care about how all people with female bodies -- and people who identify as "women" -- are treated, even if they don't call themselves women or identify internally that way.

I identify WITH WOMEN because of my body and how the world sees me... but not "AS A WOMAN", gender-wise.

But I know I have talked on DU about being transgender, about having a boyfriend, about being "straight", and about having a female body at different times -- and those things might not seem to match or add up at all. So I wanted to explain because if anyone is paying attention I might possibly seem to be contradicting myself at times.

[seabeyond]

9. love your post. i think when people dont adopt the gender roles.... it would leave more of us NOT

feeling gender identified.... perhaps. maybe that has something to do with it.

having been raised as a person, not a gender, it is very hard for me to heavily identify with gender. i dont get it so often. i dont get a man telling me because i am a woman i am suppose to......

i never am doing or feeling what i am suppose to......

"what most people think of when they hear "transgender"". i really needed this carification, explanation i did not know this. helps a lot

thanks....

[MadrasT]

11. I only learned about the "other" gender identity options

Besides "M" or "F" within the last couple years.

And I was like a dog wagging its tail and I was all... "Wait, what???"

"nongendered????"



HEY that's MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!



And yeah, I was raised with no emphasis on gender, at all. I don't know how much of that contributes to how I turned out and not sure it matters.

[Little Star]

10. Thanks...

I am just beginning to learn about gender identity and what it means. I don't ask many questions about it because I don't want to say something that may be worded wrong. I do that quite often, stick my foot in my mouth that is.

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing so that I can learn.

[seabeyond]

12. I don't want to say something that may be worded wrong.

THEN we are ALL gonna just have to be more patient with each other, arent we.

i hear ya. so much to learn. so hesitant on asking.

ok

not me, necessarily. i pretty much just steam ahead and ask. hope it is taken in the spirit of the situation.

[MadrasT]

13. No problem, and regarding "foot in mouth", I know, right?

I am always sticking my foot in my mouth too, even with all the research and discussing of gender identity that I have done (in real life not on DU).

My problem, word-wise, is that gender feels like a "choice" to me. So I sometimes talk about "choosing to be a man or be a woman" (because that is what it feels like to me, like I had the option of picking either one even though neither one worked for me).

But most people do not in any way shape or form "choose" their gender, it is just something innate that they know. And if you say anything that someone thinks remotely could sound like like "M-to-F transgender people choose to be women instead of men", OMG, all kinds of people get offended. And I totally understand why and it IS offensive to make it sound like it is a choice when for most people, it is NOT. But for me, it will always feel like a choice, so I accidentally use "choice" and "gender" together sometimes and OMG people get mad at me. It is pure accident because I am speaking from my own perspective on gender. I am trying to be more aware and make sure I always say "for me gender feels like a choice". I also accidentally will use the wrong pronoun with M-to-F or F-to-M folks. Pronouns don't matter to me but I know they are very important to some people so I try to be more aware about that, too.

If you get right down to it, I did not "choose" to be nongendered any more than a F-to-M transgender person "chooses" to be a man. It is just "what is". So I do totally get that gender is NOT a "choice".

I actually do choose to "play woman" sometimes. But it feels like a dress up role. Not like I am "woman".

Gender can be some complicated stuff if you don't fit into the man-born-man box or the woman-born-woman box.

It is my wish that more people could ask and answer questions about gender without the degree of offense that ends up happening sometimes. Curiosity and questions is how we all learn.

[boston bean]

14. One question I would like to hear input on and learn more from differing viewpoints, from all is

whether gender is a social construct, or is it innate.

I think this is a very good conversation and one that should take place.

It is truly one place where some feminists and some transfeminists are at odds. There are a lot of words, insults tossed around this very sensitive subject from all sides, and I think that is a shame.

To toss out gender being a social construct would be pretty much wiping all feminist theory off the chalkboard. Yet, to view gender as a choice, is offensive to the trans community..

Feminists have long argued that in no way is gender something we are born with. To believe that would give credence to misogynist view points that there are biological differences and women can't break free from gender roles ascribed to them.

Transfeminists believe that gender is something that you are born with. To think otherwise is offensive, just as the thought that lesbians choose to be gay, is offensive and bigoted.

So, to me it is interesting, I would like to learn more. But cutting through the noise on this is extremely difficult.

[seabeyond]

15. i think

if a person does not even strongly identify with a gender, that would be an even more challenging question. if all i am reading, and in personal experience what i see, so much of the indicator of gender is totally fabricated by nurturing and society, that would make it even more challenging.

i had a man tell me that he was trying to understand the issue on du between the feminists. but the bottom line was, he thinks like a man. cant get beyond that. that was a couple days ago and i have been thinking about that on and off for a reply. think like a man. what does that mean. what is that. i dont get it. there is nothing in my brain that gets that. what is it to think like a woman. i dont know. what is it to identify with woman. or man for that matter.

so, i dont have the answers, or cannot even begin to express in a manner, anothers experience. i also would not in any way deny anothers feeling and expression and their reality. as madrast says, for me, it is what it is. for each of us. i can not go beyond that.

i think where much of the issue is though, even identified as a woman, growing up as a man (and damn that has to be rough and confusing and damn hard), does the trans pick up on the social condition identified by physical sex. and not experience what women have all their lives having the gender role foisted on them since birth of subservient, submissive, hypersexualized, so lack an understanding where women are coming from. that being said, i think we would have to factor in that not all of us buy into that conditioning, and so would that be on the side of the trans that they no more identified with, ergo learn the privilege conditionings of male.

[MadrasT]

18. And the sad thing is the we have become so obsessively politically correct...

That if you even want to TALK about this:

i think where much of the issue is though, even identified as a woman, growing up as a man (and damn that has to be rough and confusing and damn hard), does the trans pick up on the social condition identified by physical sex. and not experience what women have all their lives having the gender role foisted on them since birth of subservient, submissive, hypersexualized, so lack an understanding where women are coming from. that being said, i think we would have to factor in that not all of us buy into that conditioning, and so would that be on the side of the trans that they no more identified with, ergo learn the privilege conditionings of male.

You run the risk of being labeled "transphobic".

But to me, not talking about it is denying reality.

[MadrasT]

16. Yep. There is a lot of noise.

The thing to know is that there are 4 layers of "gender".

1. Identity
2. Presentation
3. Performance
4. Role

I think "identity" is something you are born with.

I think presentation, performance, and role are all socially constructed.

This bit talks about what those layers are:

Gender identity concerns how you think about yourself, gender presentation describes how you look physically and sartorially, gender performance pertains to how you act or comport yourself, and gender role refers to what you do for a living and what you contribute to the domestic sphere. Taken together, the last three components comprise gender expression. Gender identity is internal, whereas gender expression is external, and that is why not all androgynous-looking people are androgynes.

(Excerpt was from Androgyne Online, where there are many many links to a ton of information about gender, by the way.)

And I will sometimes sound like I contradict myself when I am talking about those things too, because while I believe that "identity" is a given thing we are born with... I think all the other bits are socially constructed. (I think the internal part is "born with" and the external part is "socially constructed".) So I will defend until I am blue in the face the right of a female born person to identify as "man"... but I think presentation, performance, and role are all stuff we think we have to do or that we have learned to do in order to execute the identity we were born with in a way that fits into the society we live in.

[seabeyond]

17. this is very good.

i am going to read the site you give. think about it. and come back to it.

[Little Star]

8. Yes...

to all you said!

[MadrasT]

19. Sorry... I think I hijacked your thread.

[seabeyond]

20. they just had to represent women in pink, didnt they, rollin eyes. OR it is a perfect example of

100% women talking about women issues..... lol. how it ought to be. unless a man wants to jump in. that would be fun. diverse thought. but then, my guess would be that still the table would be reversed on that graph, even with that.

so you did a service.

[MadrasT]

21. Fuck pink.

Seriously.