femen and P riot, two orgs run by men, degrading women, claiming womans voice.

[seabeyond]

When the Femen founder finally spoke to Ms Green, he sought to justify his role within the organisation and acknowledged the paradox of being a “patriarch” running a feminist protest group. “These girls are weak,” he says in the film.

“They don’t have the strength of character. They don’t even have the desire to be strong. Instead, they show submissiveness, spinelessness, lack of punctuality, and many other factors which prevent them from becoming political activists. These are qualities which it was essential to teach them.”

Mr Svyatski insists to Ms Green that his influence on the group is positive. However, when he is asked directly whether he started Femen “to get girls”, he replies: “Perhaps yes, somewhere in my deep subconscious.”

One of the Femen campaigners talks of the relationship between the women and the movement’s founder as being akin to “Stockholm syndrome”, in which hostages feel sympathy for their captors.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/the-man-who-made-femen-new-film-outs-victor-svyatski-as-the-mastermind-behind-the-protest-group-and-its-breastbaring-stunts-8797042.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023591267

femen that strips women down, P riot that has women using a deragatory title on themselves to be the voice.... both orgs are "men feminist" running the show. we have had conversation WHY men cannot be the leader in a womans org. hmmmmm, lets see, why men cannot be the one to "guide" women speaking out for our issues.

femen article is in GD. and of course all those supporters do not show up once it is known it is a misogynist pig that runs the org, humiliating and degrading women every. step. of the way. but, i thought we ought to know what femen truly is. all about exploiting women by a man.

[BlueToTheBone]

1. Good information

I always thought that P Riot was a weird name...now I know why.

[seabeyond]

2. it is amazing, how readily, we are willing to justify misogyny. be it using sexist slurs on women

because we oppose their political stance, or accepting misogyny on our team if we think it may have a "greater" good.

universally, it will never work. so if we see, feel, that it is sexist or misogynist, it is best to call it what it is, even if we think it is on our side. then look further. i hope this will be a lesson for many otherwise smart allies.

[BlueToTheBone]

4. Who's the "we" here?

I'm not willing to readily justify misogyny. Are you talking about the women who let a man tell them how to be a woman (again?)

[seabeyond]

7. i say "we" as a collective. like saying you..... but not meaning, YOU.

when i do not want to point a finger at an individual, i use we, because as a collective group, we allow. though i and you are the voice that try to address the issue, i still put me in as a "we", human experience.

[Arcanetrance]

3. It's funny months ago when I made comments about this people in Gd called me a prude

and said I was trying to appease a minority here.

[seabeyond]

5. right, along with the whole stupid ass door thing. i guess, we were right and they were wrong.

huge ass .... duh.

[Little Star]

6. "exploiting women by a man".......

True but (correct me if I'm wrong here) The women in those groups & their female supporters are helping the men exploit women also.

[seabeyond]

8. absolutely. just as the women who want/allow themselves to be pornified and align with the sexists

in every day life.

women too, are part of the patriarchy.

[Little Star]

10. Yes. Many women actually enjoy the patriarchy. They think....

it some how benefits them.

I'm gonna tread lightly here because remember I was a stay at home mother of 4 young children & thought feminism would make me have to get a job on top of that????? It took me a while to catch on. Sometimes I can be a slow learner, lol.

[seabeyond]

12. woman. lol. stay at home with two kids.

many of us will admit that we grew into this. we allow the men to convince us being a feminist is being unfeminine or ugly or frigid. that is the shame of the power of the oppressor. we still have a member on du that constantly uses images of "ugly" and "old" women to humiliate or demean the woman that speaks out. yet, he claims to be a feminist. though playing a womans sexuality absolutely to shut her up. the contradiction, hypocrisy, irony of it totally fuckin' amazes me.

so progressive.

[redqueen]

9. White liberal feminists, shut the fuck up.

It's bad enough this shit was even pulled in the first place, let alone that it got so much support from women who should fucking know better.

And now we find out (confirmed, more like, cause FUCKING DUH) that this shit was all run by a man. The only mystery is his campaign against... which was it? Porn? Prostitution? How much do you want to bet this asshole is making money off it now and knows if its legal he'll make less.

So yeah, again, shut the fuck up.

[Little Star]

11. +100000000000000000

[seabeyond]

13. hey, i am having an issue with the attack on the white liberal middle class woman though, seeing

that is who i am and was one of the few (hof) speaking out against this shit and being attack from the supposed liberal/progressive minded on du.

so i am kinda ya, and no..... not so simple

[redqueen]

15. When a person of color says "white people do x"

they are generalizing out of necessity due to the majority being blindly racist in so many ways. White people who make the constant effort to check their privilege and ensure they're not reinforcing racism know they're not the majority being referred to.

Just as when feminists say "men do x", men like Jackson Katz know they are likely not in the majority of the group being referred to.

Same principle here.

[seabeyond]

16. i understand. and i am not necessarily agreeing though. i agree and not because ...

what i saw on our very small sampling was just the opposite. when it came to sex positive, femen, p riot, it was not the middle aged/middle class white woman that was defending. we were the ones being attacked, for the most part. if you go thru the list of who we were having the conversations about.

what i am saying is i get that it is easier for the white middle class woman to speak out against things and they are seeing it from their perspective. right on. that is the part i agree with.

what i am disagreeing with is was it really the white middle class woman. i am really kinda thinking not.

and i have take a position if i think i see a wrong that may not be particularly popular at the moment, but may still very well be wrong.

and then again, maybe it is just the small sample size i am seeing that is effecting my perspective.

[redqueen]

20. Oh yes, well the online contingent of pro-porn, pro-objectification, pro-prostitution feminists

love to hurl the "white middle class second wave feminist" invective because they're fucking morons.

In the real world, the big picture shows that it is mostly white, privileged liberals who take that stance. But it serves their interests to spread disinformation, so that's what they do.

[seabeyond]

21. ok. now we are breaking this down. yes.... the first part. that is exactly what i am talking

about adn that is exactly what i get to see.

i do not get to see

In the real world, the big picture shows that it is mostly white, privileged liberals who take that stance.

so, are you sure it is out there, or are we maybe creating something that is not there. cause i am not seeing the steinmans of the world creating this. again, this would be more in line of what this group truly is, HOF and learning, studying what we are talking about. i am far from being in the academic or greater picture, maybe, of feminism. or maybe i do not any longer see there is this real world. the feminism i see is the "real world" of the net movement.

[redqueen]

24. Oh it's out there.

There's a piece up right now about the idea of reclaiming the word "slut"... or maybe I read it on tumblr... either way, yeah, it's there and it's consistent.

[seabeyond]

26. i understand it is out there. my question is do we know it is white middle class women

or, are we being lazy in our accusations. the reason i am saying this is because i know in the early years it was the white middle class that had the feminist voice and thru history, and insightfulness, study, we have addressed and continue to address this.

but, it seems to me that a lot of the white middle class women are now aware of the issue, have progressed, learned and grown and are working hard not to make this misstep again, and to be more open to other voices.

if this is the case, i would rather honor the intent of right, instead of creating an illusion of wrong that is not a reality.

[redqueen]

28. All I know is what I see.

And what I've seen evidence of time and time again are privileged, not necessarily middle-class, white women, pushing so hard on these issues. Not all white, not all middle class. But all coming from a position of privilege, either due to their race or their financial status.

That doesn't mean all white liberal feminists are doing this, just that of those who do focus on this stuff, most are white, privileged, liberal feminists. There are many white feminists and privileged feminists doing the opposite, but they don't make up the majority of those feminists the way they do the pro-porn, pro-objectification, pro-prostitution activists.

[seabeyond]

29. i will have to pay attention. thanks redq. nt

[ismnotwasm]

30. Sea

I just try to stay aware outside my own privilege. I know you do that as well. But privileged people have to work at and be uncomfortable about certains truths or points of view to gain understanding. There are those who don't bother; and that is a problem

[seabeyond]

33. i get that and you and the rest of us do too. we have talked about it often. look.... here is the

thing.

i think it was a HUGE misstep in the past, and i was not around feminism at that time so i was not walking it. further, i was a child. but.... since walking into feminism i see that it happened and there is an ABSOLUTE reason to call it out. damn straight. along with white privilege. male privilege. i get what that is about. i am all over being aware of it. and i am often reaching otu to get the perspective of the person walking it, to progress my own views since i am not walking it.

the thing. this was used as a weapon against us a couple years ago. it was not valid. we were being told we were not open, as i saw all around that is exactly what we were, open. insisting, demanding help in understanding yet just accusations and not conversation. unfortunately a whole battle was devised of them against us for exactly this argument when it did not exist.

that is what i am suggesting we honestly look at.

if you see it... damn straight. call it every. single. fuckin. time. and if i misstep? call me out please, i have to learn and grow. that is all we are asked of in life.

but... do not use it as a tool when it is not there.

and i am jsut not seeing it coming from the white privilege. that is not where i am seeing it. though, as i say, i will look.

but, as a white middle class woman, as i have an obligation, so does the accuser.

then we all move forward.

no way am i denying there is privilege. no way.

[ismnotwasm]

37. Ok I get you know

Discuss and problem solve, but don't let the growing pains of feminism allowed to be tools of divide and conquer, right?

[seabeyond]

14. and as far as the prostitution thing? isnt that what he was doing, pimping these women out.

so it is not like he really got the issue of prostitution even if he was opposed and further, his position whatever it was, was very buried and had to be searched out. wasnt like it was a forefront of their message.

[redqueen]

17. roffle

Femen was founded and is controlled by a man. Exactly zero people are surprised

Femen, aka, CLASSICAL FEMINISM IS DEAD ALSO LOOK AT OUR BOOOOOBS, turns out to have been founded and controlled by a man named Victor Svyatski.

“Outed” by Australian film-maker Kitty Green, she says: “It’s his movement and he hand-picked the girls. He hand-picked the prettiest girls because the prettiest girls sell more papers. The prettiest girls get on the front page… that became their image, that became the way they sold the brand.”

I swear I don’t want to go all “I TOLD YOU SO SUCKERS” but seriously. We talked about this.

We talked about the fact that the whole point of Femen was to capture the male gaze, thereby capturing the attention of the media. We talked about the fact that we should be skeptical “anytime anyone makes reference to a “new face of feminism” and that face is either lingerie, something about pole dancing, or boobs.” We talked about the fact that “if a dude posts a photo of boobs and tells you it’s feminism, it’s not.”

All feminists who are smart and unfooled by the self-objectification-is-empowerment crap and who haven’t come down with a bad case of burlesque-brain like the rest of the third wave also knew better than to fall for the Femen garbage. So now is the time we all join together and rub this news obnoxiously in the faces of every dumbo who fell for this crap. WE TOLD YOU AND WE ARE RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING FOREVER AND ALWAYS. Oh do we sound gloaty? Do you not like that? DON’T CARE. Feminism needs smarty-pants gloaters more than porn-loving FEMINISM IS ABOUT LOOKING HOT AND SEXY AND DOING WHAT WE WANT FUCK YEAH mush-brains. Also! Feminism isn’t here to give you a boner. If it is giving you a boner you may want to question whether or not that’s because this “feminism” is actually porn in a very sexy nurse outfit shoddy disguise.
...

http://feministcurrent.com/7963/femen-was-founded-and-is-controlled-by-a-man-exactly-zero-people-are-surprised/

[seabeyond]

18. “I TOLD YOU SO ... SUCKERS”

ya. i am all like, ya, i do want to be the one to say it.

ok, the writer clearly does not mind saying it later in the article.

WE TOLD YOU AND WE ARE RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING FOREVER AND ALWAYS.

bah hahahaha. i do love this writer. lol. i think i just posted this as a reply to another not long ago. lmFUCKINao

[seabeyond]

19. Feminism isn’t here to give you a boner.

ah man.... now what are our selective group of feminist men gonna do....

[BainsBane]

22. LOL

You knew when the feminist haters were loving on FEMEN something was seriously wrong.

[seabeyond]

23. right there was the obvious, in our face, tell all. every sexist on du was now interested

in feminism.

ah... and calling women that spoke out prudes, frigid and ugly attacking our sexuality while exploiting womens sexuality was a give away also.

[redqueen]

25. LOL no shit...

How so many missed that clue, I have no idea... well, no... actually I do. It's just an ugly truth to have to recognize.

[ismnotwasm]

31. Because they sure don't give a shit

About the thousands of clothed women protesting in Tunisia, now do they?

Thousands of women.

[redqueen]

34. Yes but they're not 'real' feminists though, because Islam. And burkas. And hijabs.

Was there any discussion of The Burka Avenger here?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/articles/2013/08/07/the-ridiculous-burka-avenger-backlash.html

[MadrasT]

27. Love.

"burlesque-brain"



SUCKERS

[ismnotwasm]

32. I fucking knew it

I even went looking on-line when that whole thing started for the man behind the curtain. Couldn't find 'em.

Figgers.

[geek tragedy]

35. "these girls are weak"

So are the minds of a lot of booby-obsessed faux-men-ists.

[seabeyond]

36. i really tried to separate feminist men and faux-men-ists. we have a lot of great men that are

the voice of women so i did not want to .... you know. i like what you posted.