right? wrong? tell me.

[seabeyond]

men, who cannot stand with feminists on the simplest of theory and must personally attack

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2606782
(look at the names)

stand up for a handful of girls that strip down for mens entertainment and notice. in all our du mens feminism, they get boobs on du again, as they profess their feminism, lol. they try to cheer the cause, but really end up just cheering the boobs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2615077
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251297517
(again, check the names)

regardless of being told the bogusness of this little exercise of a handful of girls strippin, surrounded by men taking pictures to get this huge news story out.... (i mean, a handful of girls strippin)... the same men that are so into this protest because of feminism, they actually ignore the OP that has info (not pictures) on the protest

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022617996
(notice the names not there)

yet, when women who happen to opppose this performance by this very small org the men are sure to make their voice clear. now, i found this interesting. as they attacked, lectured, demeaned, ridiculed women that would not strip for them, they used the argument that these women dressed for the man. bad girls. yet, the whole protest of the few girls was all about strippin for DA MAN, lol. same thing, flip side of the coin. right gents.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2616415
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022617310 he went out to find women to snark at.


is this what male feminism looks like? we have had discussion if men can be feminists (HH). i always cheered it. the last couple years, seeing du'es mens feminism, i now do not feel men are feminist, but supporters of. we had OPs about it a couple months ago. lots of discussions. sincere discussions with many men, who felt themselves feminist.

so i ask. is this the face of mens feminism that we are to take seriously, and more importantly, sincerely?

[JustAnotherGen]

1. I supposed it IS the face they want us to see . . .

so i ask. is this the face of mens feminism that we are to take seriously, and more importantly, sincerely?

However - doncha dare ask me to take it seriously or sincerely! They are all over the place and showing their true colors and their asses with their b.s. with those threads you've shown.


Now, countdown - 3-2-1: Adrienne aka justanothergen gets an email asking me to serve on a jury because one of those exact same men is panty bunching (okay - sexist but what the hell!) and needs the vapors because their feelings are hurt because you had the gall to tell them a hard truth about themselves!

Happy Friday seabeyond!



P.S. It's kind of two faced of them to talk out of both sides of their mouth though. <---- Yes - I just gave them men you pointed out on that thread my 8th grade hair flip.

[seabeyond]

3. you are such a .... girl. lol lol.

talking about the hair flip, you know. i luv it.

thank you for understanding my post.

and yes... happy friday.

another break for me. lol

i cannot get HH outta my head. along with these couple threads. and then the pondering of how the board is going to shit, when it comes to women. i wonder.

respect. with out it, this is what we create. that simple.

[Little Star]

2. Bingo

[seabeyond]

4. thank you star.

you know. this is the second time, using your name, i have had to go back and take out the little. just star. no little about it.

[Little Star]

11. I was wondering how muslim women were feeling about FEMEN...

I think I would feel the same way.

This post of yours sure tells more than just one story! Good one sea and thanks.

[Deep13]

79. Begging your pardon, but what voice?

Seriously, FEMEN's stunt made the world pay attention.

[BainsBane]

88. Are you saying Muslim women had no voice before FEMEN?

I'm not sure what difference you think the "world" paying attention makes in the lives of women living in Egypt, Tunisia, or Morocco, if it isn't paying attention to the issues those women care about. There is a strong aspect of cultural imperialism to this whole thing that many don't see to understand. Muslim women's issues are not what Europeans and Americans think they should be. Women have the right to determine what they most care about.

FEMEN is successful in capturing the male gaze. I don't see their being as successful in highlighting serious issues. And that fact that they target Islam itself as an enemy tells me they lack respect for the women they think they are drawing attention to. If someone marches through a Muslim neighborhood with "fuck the Qur'an" printed either on their breasts or a sign, attacking a key aspect of Muslim identity, I think it highly unlikely that a Muslim woman is going to identify with them or see them as a whole lot different from the National Front.

If we in the West don't start to interrogate our own self-entitled sense of superiority, we will only do harm throughout the world.

[Deep13]

97. السلام عليكم

Yeah, I've read Said. I've also read Spivak who seems to conclude that the subaltern cannot speak in any meaningful way.

First, I think you are misreading the FEMEN protests. The whole point there is to challenge the idea that men's honor is contained in women's modesty. By exposing themselves they are depriving the men of honor and illustrating how ridiculous of a concept it is. The need for masculine honor was a pretext for controlling women.

You're right and rather than saying Muslim women have no voice, I should have said their voices have a limited audience depending where they are. In Iran, for example, they have more freedom of expression and influence than they do in Saudi Arabia. Islam is not monolithic, but then neither is the West. Frankly, saying Westerners cannot protest gender injustice in the Middle East is like saying I cannot interfere in another man beating his wife because because she is his wife and not mine. Yes, the West has much to atone for, particularly in its imperialist dealings in Arab lands, Iran, and Pakistan/India. Still, not being in those cultures creates some objectivity that those directly involve lack.

I think there is a class issue here two. An article from the 1980s from Juan Cole explained how the argument over female headgear was confined to the upper class. Those where the people who were in close contact with Christian imperialists and who wanted to move in those circles. Middle class people, especially men felt that liberalizing the rules would allow women to compete against them in business. By and large the peasantry and later the working class were uninvolved in this argument.

[BainsBane]

98. My view is that we would do best to listen

to what women in the Muslim world identify as their main concerns rather than imposing our notions of liberation on them. I am not saying you or FEMEN cannot protest. I am saying I find the dismissive attitude exemplified in statements like "fuck the Qur'an culturally imperialistic. If most women in the Middle East are not primarily concerned with veiling, why should that be the primary focus of protest? Why not listen to the concerns of Muslim women and partner with them?

I appreciate the point you raise about honor and modesty. Yet I see a lack of respect for Muslim women evidenced in some of the FEMEN protests, as the above statement about the Qur'an makes clear.

I agree that neither Islam or the West are not a monolith. You stand far above many on this site in that understanding.

The class argument makes sense to me. I do know some professional Muslim women, many but not all of whom are immigrants, here in MN who veil, but most of those I work with do not. I see many women who wear hijabs in the community, however. A number of Minnesota employers, like Target for example, make accommodations in their uniform codes for veils. I consider that a very good thing. I agree women should not be forced to veil, but I do not automatically see it as a sign of oppression. That determination is for them to make.

[Deep13]

99. I really don't think veiling really is the focus of the protests.

And I do think the decision should be for them to make. The question is, is it? Or have they normalized the patriarchal controls just as Americans have normalized our own?

In most countries, Muslim women only wear face-covering veil's as an optional status symbol. Hijabs (I don't know the plural) are far more ubiquitous. While I tend to agree that anyone may wear what she or he wants, I also have to recognize that clothing norms are a form of social control even if those norms are not legally mandated and even if individuals are possessive of them.

I don't think the Qu'ran mandates hair or face coverings, so the dismissal of it on those grounds is a bit off base. Still, as offensive as many find it, the idea that it is not necessary to accept something just because a holy book says it is one that the world needs to learn. We have the same problem in the USA. Millions of Americans believe that the Christian Bible--and their particular reading of it--ought to be the supreme law of the land. Others have normalized capitalist values and judge everything by market value. Sacred cows are the best hamburger and folks need to realize that not everyone in the world agrees with them or has a duty to do so. Religion, nationalism, race, East vs. West, class, and even gender are all social constructs that have no reality outside our own minds.

[BainsBane]

100. Obviously I can't answer that question

but I don't think it my role to decide. As you note, I have my own share of patriarchal controls to contend with.

[Arcanetrance]

5. I commented in one of those threads

I was told I was over thinking my comment. Sadly I just finished moving a friend so I didn't have the energy to stay awake and argue my point. I would be curious to get someone else opinion on it.
[link:http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2617152|

[seabeyond]

9. this is what started this brouhhaha.

i agree. to have to objectify a woman so she can be heard ultimately hurts us all collectively. reinforces the woman as a thing for mens entertainment. used as a weapon against women. and silences the actual message cause it is the boob after all, and the man gains control of what is heard.

every bit of it is wrong, imo.

but, on the other hand, i look at africa. the older women. putting the young women behind them. it was ALL about NOT sexualizing the boob, where the message could be heard LOUDLY. and they accomplished something. for those women, i wanted to strip down, and walk with them.

[Arcanetrance]

12. Forgive my ignorance but I'm not really familiar with the protest in Africa.

To be honest I probably wouldn't have known about the femen one if it wasn't for the unending threads on the site. The femen thing looking at the pictures and the messages they use I disagree with their supporters on the site. To me their entire message seems to start and stop with breasts.

[seabeyond]

13. it was interesting. allowed me to focus more what the issue is. silly men keep saying about naked

nothing further from the truth. both use naked. one uses the woman for the men, used by the men, all about the men, the women NOT being empowered cause it has NOTHING to do with them, but all about the men.

another protest is ALL about the woman.

both naked.

one is a problem, and one is effective.

luminia brought a lot of info. squinch started the actual conversation about this. but, i learned something. and was impressed.

not about naked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022605055#post11

[chervilant]

20. Oopsy ...

Please see below, sea. That was a response to you. (so sorry).

[Arcanetrance]

23. That was a very interesting read and comparison I learned alot thank you for linking that for me.

[chervilant]

17. Men control what is heard ...

Indeed. Men control, period. Men control what is seen on all MSM. Men control the corporate boardrooms. Men control.

And, the sad truth is most of those who have become relentless in their demeaning, derisive, and defensive attacks on you cannot understand that this macro-level construct called patriarchy is damaging to us all.

[haikugal]

52. Bravo..beautifully put Sea...

you're the best!

on the other hand, i look at africa. the older women. putting the young women behind them. it was ALL about NOT sexualizing the boob, where the message could be heard LOUDLY. and they accomplished something. for those women, i wanted to strip down, and walk with them.

Woot!

[geek tragedy]

6. Men tend to support feminism to the extent

it coincides with their perceived interests, i.e. greater access to women in a sexual manner (directly or indirectly via pr0n). Also, women working and earning more means less financial burden on men.

But, if feminism starts to challenge access to b00bs, look out.

Sad thing is they believe they're actually supporting women's rights by encouraging women to show their b00bs.

[MadrasT]

8. +1000000

[MadrasT]

7. This whole thing has been fascinating.

Really fascinating.

This http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022617996 was ignored. Completely.

I have noticed all the same things you are noticing.

Women who choose to wear more modest clothing are mocked and ridiculed for "dressing for men"... yet women who strip naked (for male attention) are all empowered and brave and it's all RAH RAH RAH GO WIMMINZ!!!

The thing that depresses me is that the entire conversation is framed around the male gaze.

Fuck the male gaze.

I do not give a flying fuck what any man (or woman) thinks of my presentation to the rest of the world, and all the chattering about how women appear in the world disgusts me. It doesn't matter if the chatter is pro-naked protest, anti-naked protest, "why are the protesters all young and attractive?" "oh look there are some older "non fit" ones!!" it is all endless fucking idiot chatter about how women can or can't or should or shouldn't be and all I gotta say is...

Fuck that noise.

[seabeyond]

10. around the male gaze. Fuck the male gaze.

yes. and then, late last night, i read, the prez had to let a woman know she was "easy" on the eyes. wt livin' f? couldnt let her just do her job.

[4Q2u2]

14. Question

That first link you had. Is it a theory? After reading the whole thread, I saw a lot of, "that person did not say that", and that is not what You implied or think? That the OP was just a hit piece aimed at you.

[seabeyond]

15. the phrase "all men are potential rapist" is what i am referrring to.

it really is pretty basic. pretty simple. it is not an end of the world or big deal. it helps with perspective and understanding, no more. kinda like a discussion of white privilege.

feminist do not go around saying this often. i rarely hear a woman say this. men, on the other hand, say it often, and constantly to use as a weapon against feminists. to rile up and make people angry. saying feminist say this to them all the time.

men use it as a weapon against women. if they are supposed supporters, there would be no need to use something so simple, something that is not a big deal as a weapon. there would be no need to lie that feminists are shoving this in mens face ALL the time on du.

did i answer you question? i was not sure what you were asking.

[4Q2u2]

22. Yes

As you explained it I do have a better understanding. I was just kind of disheartened if this was a corner stone belief. As a survivor of sexual abuse, just the thought of being lumped into or even near that idea is hard to comprehend. Seeing that it is used as a truncheon to hit you over the head with gives me better understanding. As they say, context is important.

As to the other subjects, I do have an internal conflict with the Bare Breast for protest. It is their message and method of delivery, for me to try to have it conform to my ideas I think is suppression. On the other hand, I do think there is possibly a better way to get your message out. Lastly in the context of that protest, it seems that what they are saying is that you do not quack like us, therefore you are not a duck, and can not be fully free until you do.

[redqueen]

16. "why are the protesters all young and attractive?"

Because the male gaze.

I ask that to draw attention to the fact that the male gaze is how everyone views the world. It matters to me that people don't notice it, because how can it change if people are completely unconscious of it?

[MadrasT]

35. I understood that.

I am just beyond fucking suck of female appearance being a topic of conversation in any context. Even a context used to make a feminist point.

[bettyellen]

67. did you see the poster who didn't understand the article he was posting......

ended up by making the claim that we were just jealous. (before he sputtered out, embarrssed)
it's facinating how somepeople can ONLY see through their own "gaze". just WOW.

[MadrasT]

68. That was fuckin' hilarious. Truly. (n/t)

[bettyellen]

69. he reappeared claiming he knew exactly what he posted... LOL

we're at a point where people blatently lie even if the evidence if half a scroll away.
And they're asking me for links?

I have been getting lots of stalky taunts lately. I'm sure alerts too. I am trying to be kind, but....

[BainsBane]

92. He didn't know

I called him on it. He obviously thought the article was a celebration of bare breasts rather than a critique of cultural imperialism. He never tried to defend himself to me after that.

[bettyellen]

95. i LOVED when you said: "I know you think it says "boobs good"'. LOL.

I LOLed for real.
So interesting. None of those rallying could tell you anything that was written in the articles. If they could, they'd see much of it was debate on whether or not topless protests were effective. You know- the same things they were slamming us DUers for discussing. Fucking idiotic. I actually think they showed their asses worse than usual this time. I saw a few people do a turn around, and a few newbies call them on it... the BS was so thick and outrage so faux.

[BainsBane]

96. I enjoyed that myself

[redqueen]

18. Male feminists on DU show no support for One Billion Rising, but constant support for boobs.

That's what male feminists look like to me.

Note that I am aware that there are a few men on DU who get it. They are our male allies, and I am very thankful for the presence and participation of those few.

[Little Star]

24. +1

[geek tragedy]

40. "constant support for boobs"

They're not feminists, they're bro-ssieres.

[redqueen]

45. They'll swear up and down that they are, and they're the same ones insisting

that they are feminists, and not male allies.

And indeed, they are far from allies.

[geek tragedy]

47. "Male feminists" are almost similar to

"Christian Zionists" in terms of category confusion. (Please don't take this in any way as invoking parallels to Israel/Palestine).

I'm happy to support the goals of feminism, but as a man I don't see myself as having any ownership of the movement.

[BainsBane]

57. so you're not going to tell me I'm not a real feminist

like so many other male members of this site?

[geek tragedy]

62. I try to keep the mansplaining to a minimum. nt

[BainsBane]

66. Cheers for that!

Did you see a jury hid boston bean's OP, 5-1?!

[BainsBane]

58. who feel completely entitled

to proclaim what real feminism is and claim that people like me are not real feminists. Don't you just love that?

[redqueen]

59. Yeah, it's pretty rich all right.

And as noteworthy as dried dog turds.

Oh my, the male feminists who ignore One Billion Rising and gush about the 'tits' displayed by FEMEN don't think I'm a "real feminist!"?!?!?!

[smirkymonkey]

87. +1000

Thank YOU!

[Whisp]

19. It's so apparent it's laughable.

I've stayed out of most of that because there is no point in giving the children more fun.

My gawd, these are grown men, some with families, and maybe children?

and they still can't get over 'titty titty bang bang'.

[seabeyond]

21. with daughters. luv the titty titty bang bang.

I am gonna just have to adopt that one. Too perfect.

It is bad for the daughters, admittedly. But, it really iscworsevfor our sons. I do jot think we truly get that.

[Sheldon Cooper]

28. They're such children, aren't they?

All you can do is either laugh at them or ignore them, they bring nothing to the table and attending to them only encourages their childish behavior. The grown men are worth talking to, however, and I wish more of them would show up.

[wryter2000]

25. Hi, all

The "all men are potentially rapists" thread finally convinced me I needed to subscribe to this group.

I can't address everything in this OP, but I can say that I saw a few men in that thread yesterday who really "got it" and at least one woman who was solidly in the "take responsibility for your actions" and "that's how men are wired" camp. There are many men I'd rather hang out with than that woman.

[Helen Reddy]

26. The petulance

displayed on these threads.

Refuse to let them suck out the energy. Continue focusing on getting the message out, many women DO read this Group, just do not participate in commenting.

You are doing good work seabeyond.

[MuseRider]

27. I hate this place anymore.

Being from Kansas and getting kicked in the teeth for all the work we do here is bad enough but this shit? I hate it. I come here daily, read a bit but I can't even really stay on the latest thread page and not get so damned angry that I have to leave. I can take a lot, really, been here since 2002 and I can take a lot but I refuse to take abuse from these men, and the women as well <---crazy shit. Fuck them. My life has left me with so many triggers where men are concerned it just hurts too much to be here 99% of the time. I have found other places to spend my online time where this kind of crass and abusive behavior is NOT tolerated.

Way to go DU.

I can not for the life of me figure out why the admins don't stop this childish and very hurtful behavior.

I have to leave for my own mental health. This place has become a dung heap of misogyny.

[Helen Reddy]

29. {{{{MuseRider}}}}

Many agree with your sentiment.

The admin. need to notice how much of their income are from women.

[MuseRider]

89. Thanks Helen.

I have always donated, although not as much as I used to. I may have to reconsider that next year when my time comes to re-up. There have always been so many good things here, so many great ideas and thoughts but as those things disappear, and they certainly have, there is more of the "boys will be boys" crap and it is just not a comfortable place anymore. It is a free for all and at times, when triggering already, it feels like being in the middle of a drunken frat party. Not safe at all.

[Helen Reddy]

93. As always....

[seabeyond]

31. does it become just another mans space on the net where women cannot be? are we giving up just

another space for the hate toward women. allowing it to continue to grow?

i am really asking this, cause i hear what you are saying. but, i have also watched thru the net where women are saying fuck no. this convention is not man space created hostility to women. or women saying at lectures, fuck no i am not going to allow this space to be man space only, created hostility to women. and the prezzzz....

dont fuckin create your man space in the white house, talking about "easy on the eyes". she is a woman, there to work, not give you a woody.

[seabeyond]

33. i have to shout out to gaspee also, who is feeling the same as you. love you muse....

i forgot the hug, lol

[MuseRider]

90. Hey sea!

No, I won't ever really give up but you know how it is. Sometimes it is just more than I can emotionally take and it becomes a place where there is more hurt than anything else. You know, those people who make DU suck who apparently are ok to make DU suck since they can't do much of anything considered bad worthy.

I don't consider myself a terribly overly sensitive person, I can take a whole lotta crap, but when it starts to hurt that much being here it is time for me to leave for a while.

I hope gaspee is OK. I don't know the story but hope she gets better soon. Seems odd people get hurt so much here and nothing is done. Sad.

[redqueen]

34. Aw, Muse...

You've been here a long time. I know its hard to watch this place as it goes from bad to worse. So many women have left over the years, tired of beating their head against stubborn brick walls. And dealing with triggers just makes it that much worse.

I sympathize, I truly do. I do miss you though, my fellow Kucitizen.

[MuseRider]

46. I can't respond right now to much of what you all have said

but I thank you for it.

Redqueen gets the response at this point because dammit she made me cry! I am so not able to deal right now but the Kucitizen comment made me cry!

Triggering hard the last few weeks. This place feels like a rape sometimes. I read those particular posts and I feel like we are invisible, a non entity but if we pulled up our shirts and made a cute comment about what we could do for someone we would all of a sudden become very popular. The odd thing about that is there is abuse on both sides of that coin.

Been abused by men my whole life and I am frankly sad that my normal desire for closeness has been so shattered that I can not even find it anymore. I want to be known for the good things I have done and will do but no, I have gained weight or my hair is no longer styled in a pleasing manner or it is getting grey or I care to wear jeans on my farm and OMG I do not wear lipstick, I am so displeasing to men. I could care less at this point what they want because what they want is always side dressed by some kind of abuse, most likely the kind that makes you feel like a non person. I hate that kind. I would rather carry a black eye than not be seen although it is best without either and I am certainly not advocating black eyes! I see my future as a lonely and of course, suspect old cat lady. I wish it were not so but at some point many of us lack the care to even try anymore. Actually being lonely when you are truly alone is far preferable to being lonely with someone who "cares". Spent the best part of my life in that situation.

Don't mean to be maudlin here but this is what this crap does to me. I can't fight it well because it is too personal and too painful. At least here in HOF you all understand and give me hope that I will again be over this particular down time and back on my feet to at least hold my own. It comes and goes, ebbs and flows and all will be well as well as possible soon enough but this place triggers me like no other. So out for another while anyway.

[redqueen]

48. Aw honey, you remember...

I was worried you wouldn't and that it would seem out of place and random. You were among my first friends here and it pains me to hear you hurting so. I truly didn't mean to make you cry.

I wish I knew what to say. I was the same as you, alone with someone who 'cares'. I was very very lucky, and I hope the same for you. Take care of yourself...

[MuseRider]

49. :-) Of course I remember that!!

How could I possibly forget?

I will be fine. Like I said, it comes and it goes. For me the future is sealed in this place, too many years with too little to actually want to remember. I will be fine. Been dealing with this forever. There are always times of deep and great sorrow for what I could not change and times of hope that I can still make some difference in this world when I am feeling better. That is what it is all about.

[redqueen]

50. Excellent excellent excellent :)

That's what keeps us going right? The knowledge that it will get better.

[MuseRider]

51. Yup, that is it and a tremendous capacity

for absorbing and getting over abuse. It takes a great deal of work and stubbornness. Women are so damned strong, nobody really seems to know this until they come out the other end and can still function. I can't think of much other than illness and a bullet that would take me down. Hope is strong and the desire to leave goodness in your wake. The men in our lives who treated us the way they did are not worth our time. Thinking about what we have suffered and come through is where we can work to create some peace for those who follow, sadly there will always be more of us.

[MadrasT]

53. This (and your prior comments) resonates deeply with me, MuseRider

[MuseRider]

54. !

I LOVE your sig line!



It is true, unrelenting pain and torture to live with what so many of us live with. To come here and see it played out over and over again and not given the slightest scorn from the powers that be is so painful and sad to me. I feel like I have lived here for so long that it is just one more family gone over the edge. Yup, I am of true worth because I have "tits" that can jiggle and be looked at and other parts (don't really want to get my post hidden) that can be poked and used for someone elses pleasure or even used for that someone's pleasure watching someone else get that pleasure at the discomfiture of the one being used because they really are of no importance other than the parts of their body to be used. <---- if you can get that you ARE good!

I am of value, women are of value on their own. We do not need men for any of that. I refuse to be of value because of the parts that tickle their "fancy". They can tickle their own "fancy" as far as I care or wait until I am also willing. Not before and not after but when I am willing. I wish they knew how truly silly they look. If the results were not so painful we could laugh at them without tears and maybe make some difference.

I guess at this point it is time for the all important, man ego saving jingle......I do not hate men. There are quite a few that I do hate but in general I do not hate men. I hate what men often do to women but I also realize that absurdly they are also victims of the patriarchy. Some of them anyway and some of them are just creeps.

I hope my triggering here in full public view is not causing triggering for you or others. It is a very nice day and I have some work outside to do so I am going to pull up my Big Girl pants and go out and work this out

I really do LOVE your sig line!

[MadrasT]

56. We are on the same page of the same book.

It is a lovely day here, too.

I adopted that sigline months ago when the "OUTRAGE" meme was flying around fast and furious.

[bettyellen]

78. Muse! How we have missed you- but I totally get why you've gone.

:hugs: and strength to you, always.

[MuseRider]

91. Ahhh bettyellen,

you have no idea how much I enjoy what you write. Thanks so much.

I went out and worked myself hard then took a long, difficult walk through the farm and the woods with my little goats. Came back hours later exhausted, ate and drank too much wine and crashed too early. I am up now for a while and feeling much much better thanks to hard work and coming here and feeling support and care from all the nice posts.

[bettyellen]

94. wow. it means a lot to hear that from you. it really does.

sometimes it feels like all the best people here (including you!) were swapped out for pod people. it can be really alienating. it's nice when you realize there are still good people all around you. I'm so glad you are feeling much better.

[Helen Reddy]

36. How did these two comments

get hidden?

Was there something untruthful about what SC or sea said? Or is it more personal?

[Whisp]

37. it doesn't matter

if the jury is a prejudiced one who have bags of axes to grind - out the window with truth and fairness.

Juries are pathetically useless, actually more than that - they are pathetically damaging. That system is part reason why DU sucks like an Electrolux lately because a jury can never be consistent in fairness.

Coin toss, russian roulette, dart board justice is not going to work well.

[Whisp]

39. oh my, I forgt about that thing. Can you

PM me with some 'examples' to use? I've sort of lost track.

Or to anyone, can you give me your recommendations for jury blacklist. I have my own ideas but could be missing some.

[redqueen]

42. ...

[Whisp]

60. please do name. by PM please.

otherwise, here come the judges.

[ismnotwasm]

43. Here;

ISLAMOPHOBIA
Muslim Women Shockingly Not Grateful for Topless European Ladies Trying To 'Save' Them

While it is unquestionably necessary, brave, and noble to stand with Amina (who is reportedly not free to move or speak safely), the protests were distressingly and distractingly Islamophobic. A photo from one of shows a white woman with crescent moons covering her nipples, wearing a fake beard, a unibrow penciled in with eyeliner, and a bath towel on her head. Another photo, highlighted on FEMEN's Facebook page is of a topless woman protesting at a mosque in San Francisco (because, when you're fighting the good fight of "TITS AGAINST ISLAMISM," standing topless in front of any mosque anywhere will do) with the following caption:

TODAY IS AMINA TOPLESS JIHAD DAY. I was at the Islamic Mosque in San Francisco. Some Arab guy tried to grab my sign and pushed me in a violent way. My friend stopped him. MY BODY IS MY TEMPLE.

Further down is a cartoon of a woman crawling out from under her burqa to light on fire the beard of a caricature of a Muslim man (or should I say "some Arab guy"?). In the comments, a woman posted a link to an Al Jazeera article about Muslim women counter-protesting the protest, as they rightfully feel that it was condescending and imperialistic in both tone and intent. FEMEN fans responded to her link in the following ways:

"Stupid muslim women. Made brainless by Quran.

http://m.jezebel.com/5993775/muslim-women-shockingly-not-grateful-for-topless-european-ladies-trying-to-save-them

I actual went out and argued a bit. It was dumbass as I thought it would be. No fun. Well, a little fun, but a waste of time, other than personal, 'what if' thought experiment (I didn't try to hard)--results were like rubbing shampoo in a rabbits eyes for the hundredth time to see if it hurt.

[redqueen]

44. Thanks for this.

Deserves its own thread.

[Luminous Animal]

63. I'm happy to see that.

[BainsBane]

84. It does deserve it's own thread

If you can stomach the responses.

[KitSileya]

55. I got the tone argument yesterday.

Another guy who sincerely thinks that if only we said things less stridently, we'd be heard, and no use alienating potential allies, doncha know! I felt I replied to him quite a lot less stridently than what I wanted to, so I guess he got what he wanted.

And heck, just so that they'll have a proper example to show the next time they go off the rails - here's a feminist that actually do believe all men are potential rapists. I believe in the concept of Schrödinger's rapist - howsabout them apples?! I don't automatically assume that any man is safe - I'll be wary about other's boyfriends, colleagues, doctors, etc. Let them put that in their pipe and smoke it!

[Little Star]

75. +1

[Scootaloo]

61. The names are rather telling, huh?

I see at least a few who, in my interaction with them, have stopped just shy of stating a belief that feminism is about enabling their masturbation sessions and little else. Handful of the resident islamophobes, too. Odd how the two seem to pack together like that.

I've always been ambivalent about the question, "can men be feminists?" I'd like to say yes to the question of course, but to be frank, I've never been a woman and never will be, so the issues facing women will always be at least one person removed from my own experience. I figure how I identify doesn't matter compared to whether or not I understand and support the issues, so frankly I just avoid the question and carry on. As such I'd like to say that these knuckleheads don't speak for me.

[MuseRider]

64. :-)

That is all, just a smile for your very nice post. Some of you really do get it, geek is another and there are others.

[BainsBane]

83. I appreciate your saying so

I know it helps me a lot personally to know of men here who disagree with the knuckleheads.

[Flying Squirrel]

65. You know what's funny? ...

If these guys got what they think they want (women going topless in public as often as men do), they'd probably complain about it. After all, the fun wears off quickly and they'd have to look at boobs they might rather not see. It would take away the whole titillation factor for them.

[ismnotwasm]

70. That's why I'm a naked for all advocate.

Lets take the life's a party 20 something's, the child raising 30 and 40 something's, the 'I no longer give a rats ass' 50 and 60 something's and the 'fuck you if you don't like it--and by the way get off my lawn---70 and ups and just have a world naked protest day.

[Z_I_Peevey]

71. Godiva Nation

Why, it's so crazy, it ....just....might....work. Ha!

I'm halfway between 'rats ass' and 'fuck it.' But let's make it on a nice warm day, OK?

[ismnotwasm]

73. Warm with cushions

And no sand.

[boston bean]

72. You pine for the day when putting on clothes is considered effective protesting?!

LOL

[ismnotwasm]

74. Something like that.

I will dress and STAY dressed until the world changes dammit.

[Deep13]

77. True, only the unavailable is alluring. nt

[BainsBane]

82. Look at the controversy about breast feeding

Those are breasts in public and many find it offensive that women use their breasts for their actual biological purpose. I wonder how a breast-feeding feminist protest would go over? My guess is nearly not as well.

If they got what they want, as your post suggests, I have a feeling we'd be hearing about what was wrong with our breasts, too big, too small, too fake, too saggy, etc. . .

[Deep13]

76. I find it odd that much of the reaction against FEMEN...

...is coming from those aligned with patriarchal, if not to say outright misogynist, religions. There is only one kind of human in the world and I do not think the West's own collective culpability should keep Westerners or Muslims living in the West from protesting clearly oppressive practices elsewhere.

The point of the FEMEN protests is to oppose the idea that masculine honor is tied to feminine modesty. Muslim, Catholic etc. men have to control "their" women to protect their(m) honor. The bare-chested protests turn that argument on its head. So by being immodest the women are exercising agency to deprive the men of honor, if only to spell out how ridiculous the idea really is.

As far as the international press only being drawn by the nudity: of course it is. FEMEN knew it would be. It's pretty hard for a non-commercial message to get any traction in the world, especially a feminist message. Openly defying conventional decorum is a pretty good way to draw the attention of the world. So I wonder who is really being exploited here. This is not the first time women have exposed themselves to draw attention to an issue and that's because it works.

To put the issue in a Western context, nudity is not an invitation for rape, just as it is not a justification for enforcement of male honor.

I know there is a chauvinistic streak at DU and I am surprised you all have tolerated it as long as you have. Unfortunately, I often do not notice it until someone points it out. And there are a committed group of men that seem determined not to understand that patriarchy did not end with Title IX. And they probably are guilty of all you say they are. I remember some of the comments that some of the anti-Hillary Clinton people were making during the '08 primary, so the misogyny is clearly just below (or sometimes above) the surface. So even though I am cheering on the FEMEN protestors, I still think you have a valid point.

[ismnotwasm]

80. They are brave as hell

I think part of my personal reaction is from being Jaded, to almost know what the ultimate effects of their protests will be. They'll be noticed, they'll get world wide coverage. They'll get arrested, they'll get a lot of attention at first and then less and less. And then no one will care, male or female. They'll go away.

And all that bravery, all that rage, will be for what? A few naked pictures on the Internet. I hope not. I hope their protest Ends with meaning, i hope they're able to be change agents. its certainly come with plenty of reaction.

[Deep13]

86. I hope they start the snowball rolling at the periphery...

...and it gathers momentum until it takes down oppressive systems at the core, in Saudi Arabia, in Iran etc.

[BainsBane]

81. Yours is the best explanation of FEMEN's goals I have seen

and I appreciate reading it.

[Deep13]

85. Thank you. nt