Is it time for a Feminist Manifesto for DU?

[CTyankee]

I ask this question in this particular Group because of the historic significance of Manifestos. Altho I do not regularly post in this Group, I have been reading the ongoing discussion about HH on Meta and I am struck by the deep chasm of ignorance about the true nature of misogyny here. Many feminists have attempted to do something like this in individual posts, but would it be a bad thing to put together a Manifesto or is that a thing of the past?

I'm just an old Feminist (former staffer at Planned Parenthood state headquarters here in CT and also a former staffer for a feminist women's clinic in New Haven). If this is an outdated idea, let me know.

But I think that, while we may have lots of people calling themselves feminists here would object, we could nevertheless put our views in a document. I realize the difficulty inherent in composing such a document since I'm seeing some shockingly ignorant and insensitive posts in recent days and I ask myself "What is wrong with people? Don't they remember the old days when we fought tooth and nail for reproductive rights and decent treatment of women and girls?"

I have 3 granddaughters and I am seriously worried about their future. But perhaps they will have to fight these wars again and again. I had wished this would not be so...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. What would it add to the discussion how would it help things?

Charter thumping happens in other groups and is hurtful. Given the interwoven nature of things, I don't see it being helpful but am quite open to being shown to be wrong.

[CTyankee]

2. But I wonder if leaving it to individual posts to clarify what feminism is, is a clumsy way of

basically making a point. It has to be said again and again in every post on the subject.

Again, I realize the difficulty inherent in putting together such a document. But could we not have a "we hold these truths to be self-evident" type of statement in bold?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. If you keep them to a small number and high level...maybe

You can never please everyone with those kind of documents and their creation can be very decisive.

[CTyankee]

8. did you mean "their creation could be very DEVISIVE?"

I am wondering because my example to you was the Declaration of Independence and I never see that as being described as "decisive" even tho some colonies in our land DID feel that way. It didn't stop them, did it?

[boston bean]

4. I think you have a swell idea.

I would love to have something like that to pin to the top of the postings in the group.

[DURHAM D]

6. It does not matter if the three men who own DU don't care.

[DURHAM D]

5. The solution is simple.

The owners of DU have clearly stated a zero tolerance for homophobic, transphobic and racist posts. It is in the TOS.

No such protection has been stated regarding sexism and misogyny. They decided to leave it up to "community standards", otherwise known as juries. An Alerter can not point to sexist tripe as a violation of the TOS thus feminists and their allies are left to deal with each and every problem post as if we are trying to write a new law, to always start from scratch. We are left to begging an abuser in a proper polite and acceptable way to please stop abusing us. So the burden is on the victims at DU to beg for mercy as we have no rights under the current structure.

As all good progressives and liberals know, when minority rights are left up to a general vote they lose. It only takes 3 jury members to leave an offensive post and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it and the posters that constantly post such offensive materials know that nothing will happen to them.

The only way to fix the problem is for the owners to write some new language.

[CTyankee]

9. It is never a bad thing for oppressed groups to write/issue a manifesto.

Frederick Douglas said "Power never gives up without a struggle. It never has and it never will."

[DURHAM D]

12. Douglas was working within a democratic frame.

We are not.

[CTyankee]

13. But Douglas was a black man whose race had been enslaved in the South.

So we have an example there for us. We are free to make our own manifesto, just as Douglas was once he left the South.

I am just saying that it would help if we made it clear that here is our statement of belief. And I know it is hard and full of problems achieving. But SOMETHING. A stand to be made. Even if it isn't every woman, it would be by and band of very dedicated women who are young and old and straight and gay and abled and disabled and white and brown/black and poor and rich. We could have a tapestry of women weaving this. It might be too hard. But can't we try?

[TorchTheWitch]

39. Bingo

Admin has dropped the ball and as far as I can tell haven't even noticed. Honestly, I'm getting the strong impression that they just don't care what is said on their website regardless what issue it is nor how it makes it look.

[Little Star]

7. I think it's well worth exploring....

though I'm too new to feminism to be much help.

[DonCoquixote]

10. sadly

as much as certain things should not be explained, they do. It never hurts to have a document that you can say "hey, did you read this before going on your ten page rampage post?"

[CTyankee]

11. Yes, so true. We keep saying it over and over in each and every post of sexism. We need some

establishing text that tells DU what we are about. WE can identify what is sexist. The progressive community has done this with racism, why not sexism?

[ismnotwasm]

15. We live in a patriarchy

Where the entitled male has a difficult time recognizing what his entitlement actually means to society.

[DonCoquixote]

16. hint of caution though

There are those that will try to define it in such a way as too be too dogmatic; criticizing someone must never be allowed to be racist/sexist in and of itself, or we will have a repeat of other problems where anyone who criticizes Israel is called antisemitic, or anyone criticizing Iran is an islamophobe. It's not just that people want to avoid defining what is offensive, it's the people who wish to exploit those definitions.

[CTyankee]

17. Can you give me an example of what that "sexist in and of itself" would look like? I need

an example because I am trying to take your Israel/antisemitic or Iran/islamophobic instance and trying to come up with an equivalent in sexism.

[DonCoquixote]

19. Gladly

Back in 2008, many of us were called "sexist" because we voted for Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton. It got to the point where any pro Obama thread had someone saying "you just don't want a woman president." To be fair, there were also those who tried to paint any anti obama thoughts as racist.

To elaborate on the stance, the people who made those awful hillary nutcracker toys= sexist
the people who made those awful Obama monkey toys = racist

But there were many who were not racist or sexist who got called that, and we all remember how the vitriol on here in 2008 nearly made this place go into civil war.

[CTyankee]

20. I don't remember the racist stuff but I do remember the Hillary/sexist stuff and as it turned out

some of those folks were found to be trolls, IIRC. I always found it odd to hear those voices saying it was sexism here that caused DUers to oppose Hillary, so I had my suspicions all along about that episode.

Opposition to Hillary for a lot of liberals was because she was part of the Clinton machine, which was viewed with some suspicion. With her superb handling of her job as SoS she has proved herself beyond our wildest dreams. '04 now seems like ancient history...

So I guess my point is that there was always something odd about that whole "controversy"...

[DonCoquixote]

22. The point was

That a lot of Obama supporters were called sexist, and that the specter of being called "sexist" was used to order us to shut up and support HRC, or else.

[CTyankee]

23. Yes, I agree. But it was used by some pretty fishy types who suddenly showed up on DU.

I really never saw any of the regular DUers I really liked and admired doing that. I think there were sexist side show issues, however...

[DonCoquixote]

24. Oh, I can agree on that point

But that is all the more reason to make sure the manifesto is not abused, perhaps even address the fact that those that invoke it can and should be prepared to prove they act in good faith.

[CTyankee]

25. Well, apart from the unique Hillary thing in 04 where there was basically some mischief afoot

here at DU by trollers, I have not really seen the problem here of invoking feminism in bad faith. I think that this issue has always been interpretation and that is bound to happen in broadly stated principles going way back to France's "droit du l'homme." And, of course, our own Bill or Rights. What I'd like to get away from is this constant need to defend women from belittling and demeaning remarks about their right to be treated with dignity like any other person.

As I have said, Feminism is Humanism and Humanism is Feminism. If one defends Humanistic principles, one has to be a Feminist.

[bettyellen]

27. There was waaay to much sexist crap about Hill and Palin up in here though

And while it was worse with Palin (pretty much anything went - calling her a whore because she wore red shoes, BJ jokes, etc)
It was really offensive for people here of all places to be focusing on her grooming, clothes and relationship with Bill. And it happened so frequently I felt like this place was a man cave.

But very few had a problem with attacking Palin with horribly sexist language. No alert on this was ever successful and I decided never to donate again on that basis.
For what it's worth - the treatment of Palin here was the same side of the coin as those who thinks its okay to abuse a girl because she's (perceived to be) slutty and "brought it on herself". Just a difference of degrees in this fucked up world view I see a lot here that a total stranger needs to "earn your respect" before she has the right to be treated as fully human.
I'm disgusted the mods left out sexism in their TOS violations. I'm afraid they know they'd lose quite a few people that they personally like. But DU is tainted by this crap, always was. The improvement has been very slight.
Hope we can get the TOS updated, in the meantime a clear outline of what's unacceptable would be a great starting point.

[DonCoquixote]

28. I can agree

Though I will say, calling her stupid was not sexist, she is genuinely stupid, and there are whole books of remarks "I can see Russia from my front porch" that prove that beyond gender. One of the high points of DU when when a lady with downs syndrome attacked her for using her kids as pawns (kudos to that girl who showed more intelligence than most GOP members, official diagnosis and all)

http://www.theweek.co.uk/people-news/16485/sarah-palin-criticised-down%E2%80%99s-syndrome-actress

Again, my only fear is that if I call Palin stupid, out come the sexist marks..and yes, maybe CT is right, and all that mudlsinging was because some trolls tried to sneak in...but all of us have a right to be wary.

[bettyellen]

32. Stupid is gender neutral, and a fitting critique of Palin.....

But there was tons of sexist comments, and what I heard every time I'd complain was its okay because we HATE her.
I hated the ex head of the RNC as did many here, didn't see one single person toss off racial epithets. Lets face it- THAT would be beyond the pale here.
It's really easy to see the double standard that goes on here. Women are fair game and we are supposed to "lighten up" about it.

[DonCoquixote]

36. I see that

Though once that fellow got caught in Bondage bars, anything was fair game as far as jokes, why use racial epithets when his choice of bar was so fitting?

I far one do not think you have to lighten up, not only is sexism wrong, it allows the palins and others to use it to their advantage,all the while they avoid the fact that the men they help would rather have them at home than in politics. However, if someone accuses me of being sexist because I call Palin stupid, I will defend myself.

This does not mean I am deaf to you, for example, there was a time I would have made some jokes about Ann Coulter, I do not, because I know it offends people here, though I will say that Ann Coulter own stated ideas about Women (such as "we should not vote&quot that make many sexist male pigs seem enlightened.

[bettyellen]

37. Yep. It's about not sinking to that level, and creating a more level playing field.

Thanks for the chat, it;s great to hear DU has made some people more introspective about these things.

[ismnotwasm]

14. Contacting the other feminist groups would be helpful

To me feminism is about human rights; it's anti-sexist, anti-racist anti-heterosexism. It acknowledges the disparities in not only wages, but roles of gender in positions of power. It believes women should be free to express sexuality without slutshaming. It wants an end to sexual assault, sexual harassment and unrealistic sexual expectations.

While the art of body decoration isn't itself wrong, women basing their entire or most of their self esteem on it is.
Feminism is global; we acknowledge cultural difference and celebrate a world with women of
many color, shapes and sizes. We fight for every thing from reproductive rights in Ireland to female small business owners in Rwanda.


We acknowledge rape as a weapon of war and terror.

We reach out to those cultures that practice FGM and try to dialogue with the women who practice it. Not to show western cultural superiority, but to educate on anatomy. We reach out to cultures that hold women legal bondage.

We acknowledge sex workers; no matter how feminism differs in opinion and approaches of the challenges of sex workers, feminism recognizes the need to keep these women safe. We abhor and reject sexual trafficking.

We understand some of us are faith based, some of us are not and either is ok within the philosophy of feminism.

We acknowledge there is NO one size fits all, standpoint theory failed when the white feminists of the 60's and 70's thought they could express the experience of the black female simply by sharing gender.

No matter how divisive gender reassignment has been to feminists, it's time to let those resentments slip away and welcome our new sisters. I personally have a friend who served two tours in Vietnam. She still does color guard duty and is a women I can talk to soul to soul.

We believe in education of gender roles and what they mean, we wish to leech out the poisons that toxic gender expectation causes.

[CTyankee]

18. It looks like you have a good basis with your post!

We need the help of women who have done work in Feminist Studies, good academic grounding as well as women who have no formal academic training but who are fighting for our day to day issues all the time.

We can start with the premise that you just cited: feminism is about human rights. Feminism is Humanism and Humanism is Feminism. Women are moral agents, an extremely important point when discussing reproductive rights, but just an establishing principle as well.

I think the effort alone will get more people on this board to thinking very seriously about women's rights and concentrate on strengthening those rights rather than just fighting these skirmishes we keep fighting on the edges (and I'm not saying fighting is not necessary and helpful but just that we can establsih some overarching values that inform our arguments).

[ismnotwasm]

21. It's a good idea

And easier that it sounds if, as you say we start from a human rights perspective. The divisions in feminism itself can be dealt with by using non-judgmental language. There will always be disagreements, but they can be civil disagreements, keeping the eye on the prize which is the liberation and safety and equity of women everywhere.

[Hatchling]

48. I think equal opportunity sexism should be noted in the manifesto as well

That men shouldn't be the victims of sexism either and that as feminists we stand by them.

[Tumbulu]

38. Wow, what an eloquent beginning

thank you!

[patrice]

26. I continue to encounter women who say things like, "You know, I understand the need for

something like feminism, but I'm not sure I can equate myself with what is called feminism ..." and what follows usually includes characterizations that include references to "man-hating" and one-ups-MANship and losing cerrtain badges of womanhood etc. etc. I know that those things may be their mis-perceptions, or they may also be accurate depending upon what their personal experiences are, I'm just telling you that I think there's definitely some confusion and perhaps even fundamental evolution in our involvement in feminist issues.

Was having a beer last night, after a meeting and listened to someone say how she is not sure that she wants/likes that label "feminist" and "feminism" and she was wondering if there should be a different name. I don't know the answer to that question, but somekind of collective discovery, a manifesto if you like, might be good for the whole process.

[CTyankee]

29. Humanist is fine. Everybody is human, after all and I have already made a case for Feminism

being Humanism and vice versa.

[patrice]

30. Humanist is certainly one term I'd very much like to re-claim and it certainly at least implies the

dynamics of how all persons, male and female, become all that each potentially is, but I don't know whether it would have much to say about how women do that in whatever would be a uniquely feminine way and not necessarily compared to how men would do that in whatever would be a uniquely masculine way.

Though, if we're talking about how humans become what they are, that would include their cultures, so insofar as a culture has different aspects for women and different aspects for men, there is a context to talk within that frame about how women become women in their respective cultures.

I also have to say that if biology is going to be part of this, and it certainly IS in regard to reproductive issues, how do we avoid sexism? Is the principle that there'd be ranges of tendencies toward certain more or less uniquely feminine traits and behaviors enough to avoid the pitfalls of sexism?

[CTyankee]

31. Good questions. This is a diversity argument, no?

Just as we appreciate different cultures we appreciate differing sets of biological, cultural, and behavioral differences.

[patrice]

34. Probably more diversity : similarity, just riffing again on process . . . link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125513480#post6

[ismnotwasm]

33. Most gendered behavior is socialized

Is a gentle, soft- hearted nurturing man less of a man?

It's bound in perception. Why we continue to need feminism is to fight sexism. If a women is a gentle women, soft-hearted nurturing-- etc she is no more or less a woman than one who is not. The problem appears in societal expectations of a gendered behavior.

For instance, I dislike the word feminine because it carries those expectations, pragmatically however, it does me little good to argue against it, except when it damages. Which it does regularly enough to keep me wary.

I actually think feminism encompasses humanism rather than the other way around, but that's just me.


Here's an interesting approach in toys from Sweden;

Swedish Toys"R"Us Christmas Catalog Challenges Gender Stereotypes
Christmastime is (almost) here -- and with it, Christmas catalogs. This year, a Swedish toy catalog is making headlines for using photographs that challenge traditional gender roles (in contrast to some images used by U.S. retailers).

The catalog in question was created by TOP-TOY, which runs nearly 50 Toys"R"Us retail stores in Northern Europe. It shows “gender neutral” photos, including images of a girl shooting a Nerf gun and a boy playing with a baby doll -- as well as pictures of boys and girls using a play kitchen, a mock changing table and a pink Barbie Dreamhouse.

In a statement on its website, TOP-TOY says: "This year’s Swedish Christmas catalogues are more gender neutral and reflect the values dominant at the Swedish market. Swedish customers appreciate this new approach."

“We want our catalogues to reflect the way that boys and girls play in real life, and not present a stereotype image of them. If both girls and boys in Sweden like to play with a toy kitchen, then we want to reflect this pattern," retail marketing director Thomas Meng said in a statement



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/27/swedish-toys-r-us-catalog-gender-stereotypes_n_2198045.html

[patrice]

35. I'm comfortable with this. It's been a while since I looked into the research very deeply, but

I do remember a characterization of meta-research, research on research, being: there is more variation within the genders than there is between the genders.

If we could put all of those data-sets on top of one another and look at what is left, outside of the overlap, we'd still need to remember that it is the nature of rational empiricism that it is always only a prediction of the less than 100% strength of probabilities of different kinds, so even in those two relatively small and unique and improbable data subsets, female "uniqueness" and male "uniqueness", you STILL have to consider the possibility of exceptions for sameness.

[ismnotwasm]

43. Check out sciencedaily

Most of their studies on gender seem flawed to me.

Look at this one

Men and Women Explore the Visual World Differently

ScienceDaily (Nov. 30, 2012) — Everyone knows that men and women tend to hold different views on certain things. However, new research by scientists from the University of Bristol and published in PLoS ONE indicates that this may literally be the case.

Researchers examined where men and women looked while viewing still images from films and pieces of art. They found that while women made fewer eye movements than men, those they did make were longer and to more varied locations.
These differences were largest when viewing images of people. With photos of heterosexual couples, both men and women preferred looking at the female figure rather than the male one. However, this preference was even stronger for women.
While men were only interested in the faces of the two figures, women's eyes were also drawn to the rest of the bodies -- in particular that of the female figure.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121130222243.htm

How can this possible both empirical and NOT socialized? And then the obnoxious "everyone knows" statement.


I like your idea, I wish I was in research.

[patrice]

45. Thank you for this, but I must go do my budget, so I will look at it later & get back to us ...

Re research: do you know that there are online professional psychology resources, some aspects of which are searchable for free and other, more full-text, parts of which are searchable by means of a reasonably priced day-pass?

The American Psychological Association PsycNET:
http://www.apa.org/pubs/databases/psycinfo/index.aspx &

http://www.apa.org/pubs/databases/training/

And there is also auxiliary support for these kinds of resources like:
http://www.kfinder.com/newweb/Products/PsycLIT_ClinPSYC/PsycLIT.html &
http://www.questia.com/ &
http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

I hope that's not too much stuff (there's also more out there), but, based on my personal experience, I really can honestly encourage your to get a dictionary and a thesaurus and to just jump in and slug it out with this kind of material.

I used to teach high school Psychology and it was one of my pet obsessions to take every last one of my students, one by one, into these kinds of online databases and personally introduce them to at least the ABSTRACTS of the psychology research. Almost ALL of them enjoyed the effort and, with a little help, figured out enough of the research jargon to go after their own questions and interests in a pretty purposeful way.

Enjoy! &

Later . . .

p

[ismnotwasm]

47. Thank you

Actually I work at a University so I have on-line access to all the usual resourses---and many is the time I need a dictionary.

Have fun with your budget (better you than me, huge headache)

[pecwae]

40. Something needs to be done.

I hadn't realized how rampant the use and acceptance of sexist, misogynist terms had become around here until just recently when I began to visit more frequently. I support and applaud all efforts to make DU more comfortable for women.

Like all of you I've fought this battle for years. Yes, things are better, but we still have a long way to go to be truly fair and equal.

Not many years ago I worked in an all male department. I was the first woman to ever be employed there. One co worker told me that I was taking the food off the table of a good, hard working family man by denying him that position. It didn't matter that I was a single Mom with kids in school; that position should have gone to a good, hard working family man. Talk about facepalm! It didn't even compute in his sexist brain that I was raising a family alone. I guess he thought I should have remained married and let that good old boy take care of me no matter how much abuse I had to endure.

[Care Acutely]

41. K & R

[seabeyond]

42. i am kickin this to get back to it later. i have been so busy in meta and GD i have not been

on this group much at all

[redqueen]

44. I would like it to be simple and precise.

We have a lot of work to do, still, and addressing the issues that remain require us to be focused IMO.

If we are to have a Humanist Manifesto, we can always have one of those as well.

[CTyankee]

46. Yes, we need to discuss what we would want the statement to encompass.

I am assuming we'd want it to be focused on our online DU community and assert what our expectations as Feminists would be.