Were Prehistoric Statues Pornographic?

[seabeyond]

Our interpretations say more about modern sexism than life in the Paleolithic.






JI: You take issue with this interpretation. Who is responsible for spreading it, journalists or scientists?

AN: People are fascinated by prehistory, and the media wants to write stories that attract readers—to use a cliché, sex sells. But when a New York Times headline reads "A Precursor to Playboy: Graphic Images in Rock," and Discover magazine asserts that man's obsession with pornography dates back to "Cro-Magnon days" based on "the famous 26,000-year-old Venus of Willendorf statuette ... [with] GG-cup breasts and a hippopotamal butt," I think a line is crossed. To be fair, archaeologists are partially responsible—we need to choose our words carefully.

JI: Having studied Upper Paleolithic figurines closely, what did you find?

AN: They are incredibly varied beyond the few figurines seen over and over again: the Venus of Hohle Fels, the Venus of Willendorf, and the Venus of Dolní Věstonice. Some are male, some are female; some are human, some are animals or fantastical creatures; some wear items of clothing, others do not. A recent study by my doctoral student Allison Tripp and her colleague Naomi Schmidt demonstrated that the body shapes of female figurines from around 25,000 years ago correspond to women at many different stages of life; they're a variety of shapes and sizes. All of this suggests that there are multiple interpretations.

JI: Aren't other interpretations of paleo art just as speculative as calling them pornographic?

AN: Yes, but when we interpret Paleolithic art more broadly, we talk about "hunting magic" or "religion" or "fertility magic." I don't think these interpretations have the same social ramifications as pornography. When respected journals—Nature for example—use terms such as "Prehistoric pin-up" and "35,000-year-old sex object," and a German museum proclaims that a figurine is either an "earth mother or pin-up girl" (as if no other roles for women could have existed in prehistory), they carry weight and authority. This allows journalists and researchers, evolutionary psychologists in particular, to legitimize and naturalize contemporary western values and behaviors by tracing them back to the "mist of prehistory."

JI: Will we ever understand what ancient art really means?

AN: The French, in particular, are doing incredible work analyzing paint recipes and tracing the movement of the ancient artists as they painted. We may never have the knowledge to say, "This painting of a bison meant this," but I am confident that a detailed study of the corpus of Ice Age imagery, including the figurines, will give us a window on to the "lived life" in the Paleolithic.

http://mobile.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/new_scientist/2012/11/prehistoric_pornographic_art_venus_statues_and_other_cave_art_weren_t_paleolithic.html

[Enrique]

1. you forgot the "NSFW"

[seabeyond]

2. you kids.... make me have to look stuff up.

and i did.

not safe for work.....

[ismnotwasm]

3. Hell no

And for any students of mythology, some of those love goddesses or hunter goddesses were badasses extraordinaire, once you dig behind the crap. They were NOT on earth for male human pleasure, or not for long anyway, but their own. Since myths arose from the Neolithic cultures, you have to wonder. By the time the Greeks came around that particular area they got to they had spoiled asses to worship more or less. It got worse during Roman times and then the blend of 'pagen' and Christian myths----oy

[redqueen]

4. This gives some insight into the scope of the problem.

There is almost no escaping this kind of crap. High profile academics, respectable news outlets... our entire culture is saturated with it.

[seabeyond]

5. exactly. that is exactly what we are seeing. HEY... reminds me, i have to see inlaws in a couple

days.

that means more sexist jokes and comments from FIL. lordy, didnt i just go thru this.

we live 8 hours away fro a reason.

[seabeyond]

6. i digressed to inlaws. what i was going to say, yes. we have had this conversation about evo psycho

and seeing it thru the lens of todays sexism and misogyny and making it work to how we see today.

[gollygee]

7. This is really interesting

I had no idea seemingly legitimate sources were trying to make themselves seem more interesting by spinning ancient ancient objects in this way, but it makes sense that they'd try to increase readership and think this would help. I guess you could also say that the early Olympic athletes were nude because the games were really pornography and not athletic events, but I've never heard that claimed. Should I guess why nobody has made this kind of claim about the early Olympics?

[seabeyond]

8. ha ha ha, golly, you are too smart. hmmmm

What would that be. Good point.

[CrispyQ]

9. There is a time in human history

when we weren't knowledgeable about the entire reproductive cycle & men's role in it. We didn't automatically connect sex with birth. Relations between men & women were much more egalitarian, maybe even slanted more in favor of women, who were bringers of life. A lot of these figurines were created during that time, extolling the fecundity of the Earth Mother who provided sustenance for all her creatures. It was a time when we lived more in harmony with the planet & our natural surroundings, before agriculture & herding.

I believe that the seeds of the patriarchy were sown, when humans came to realize men's role in reproduction. The nagging fear that a child might not be his, is what drives the patriarchy's need to control every aspect of women's reproduction. Some take it even further & need to denigrate women as a whole. Male based religion has been key in promoting the patriarchy.

These are just my opinions based on the little I've read, but it makes more sense to me than that evo psych crap. Once again, I highly recommend "An Unnatural Order: Roots of Our Destruction of Nature" by Jim Mason.

http://www.amazon.com/Unnatural-Order-Roots-Destruction-Nature/dp/1590560817/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353782522&sr=1-1&keywords=an+unnatural+order

[sigmasix]

10. why i joined du

This is why I joined DU- substantive discussions.
The point of the OP seems to be that no one really knows for sure what function these figurines and carvings played, but the media has attached itself to the "pin-up" narrative because it titillates- more importantly; because the media's hyperbolic assumptions assigned to the recognized scientific experts on the subject lend strength to the notion that modern female objectification porn, and it's functions, are a human universal.
Modern cyber porn is a very different animal than anything we've seen before- the relationship between the human mind and media has changed in a very basic way that could undermine the future of our understanding and intellect.
Modern cyber porn is a further distilled product of the larger porn industry. We understand the function of these sorts of media and we all share some agreements about what the reasons are for it's consumption and production.
The "meaning" of basic human expressions displayed in neolithic carvings should never be extrapolated from known, extant information about representational media in the present- it is intellectually dishonest and logically unfair.
Not all recognized porn is like this, and some things in our culture function like porn, but they don't look like it.
Thank you for a stimulating article- I'm begining to see the real problem represented by cyber porn and what it says about ideation creation and manipulation. Feed-back, satisfaction periods and internalization are occupying a very different spot than they did historically.
I would love to have a further civil discussion about what these new models of media consumption, growth and creation can teach us about the role of pornography and it's function in modern western culture- specifically what it means about the ability of very bad people to create thier own adherents (or loyal lap-dogs) through the application of strictly consumptionist standards and ego-rewarding, emotionally charged standards.

[sigmasix]

11. why i joined du

This is why I joined DU- substantive discussions.
The point of the OP seems to be that no one really knows for sure what function these figurines and carvings played, but the media has attached itself to the "pin-up" narrative because it titillates- more importantly; because the media's hyperbolic assumptions assigned to the recognized scientific experts on the subject lend strength to the notion that modern female objectification porn, and it's functions, are a human universal.
Modern cyber porn is a very different animal than anything we've seen before- the relationship between the human mind and media has changed in a very basic way that could undermine the future of our understanding and intellect.
Modern cyber porn is a further distilled product of the larger porn industry. We understand the function of these sorts of media and we all share some agreements about what the reasons are for it's consumption and production.
The "meaning" of basic human expressions displayed in neolithic carvings should never be extrapolated from known, extant information about representational media in the present- it is intellectually dishonest and logically unfair.
Not all recognized porn is like this, and some things in our culture function like porn, but they don't look like it.
Thank you for a stimulating article- I'm begining to see the real problem represented by cyber porn and what it says about ideation creation and manipulation. Feed-back, satisfaction periods and internalization are occupying a very different spot than they did historically.
I would love to have a further civil discussion about what these new models of media consumption, growth and creation can teach us about the role of pornography and it's function in modern western culture- specifically what it means about the ability of very bad people to create thier own adherents (or loyal lap-dogs) through the application of strictly consumptionist standards and ego-rewarding, emotionally charged standards.

[seabeyond]

12. stay within the rules of this forum and be aware of a sensitivity,

cause we do not put up with shit, lol, ..... start an OP delving into what you are considering interesting.

it is all about respect

i think you can do it. i have been reading your posts. but, another of the layers you may not be aware of, is we have had a number of people come in for the mere purpose of disruption. so, unfortunately, we may be ultra sensitive to it.

but.... one point that came to mind reading your post.

cause there is naked, does not make it porn. people can actually be naked, do art that is naked, and it has no eliminate of sexuality or purpose of arousal. it is naked.

so as you say "some things in our culture function like porn, but they don't look like it". i am curious what you are talking about.

what i am really seeing in much of the argument that promotes the evo behavior is taking todays perception and knowledge and applying it to beginning of time coming up with behavior. there is no way that can be valid.

[sigmasix]

13. I see what you are saying

It's unfortunate that DU cannot have a grown-up discussion about this issue.
I am hopeful that cooler heads will prevail.
I don't understand the disagreement; doesnt every American accept the notion that media can, and does, have a shaping effect on the culture? Sometimes individuals are more concerned with finding support for thier pet ideologies and preconceptions than they are with discovering the truth.

[seabeyond]

14. that is exactly it.

i spent my kids lifetime monitoring what they watched. read. friends they hung out with. environment we created for them

and then we pretend it has no effect when it does not work with our argument.

we watch fox news shape repugs minds to stupid.

we when talking other media that is dear to them, we pretend it does not effect the mind.

all over the place is the contradiction and hypocrisy.

shoot me, just shoot me if you find me playing with hypocrisy.

ok, teasin. i am a total pacifist. but, hypocrisy is not my friend. we can at least be consistent in our arguments. or try.

[sigmasix]

15. The product produced by Fox "News"

I call the product that Fox "News" is selling "The Pornography of Hate".
Porn addiction and Fox News loyalty take advantage of the same human foibles. The same sort of ritualized emotional fantasy world construction as well as sometimes violent, highly emotional resolution and reward rituals. Fox and the rest of right wing American media are hard at work trying to give the impression that right wing cultural definitions of Americans haven't already lose. They lost in the late 60s, and have been performing a cultural and political retreat since then that has damaged our country and the world.

I mentioned this a while back; Feminism already won the war over the right to apply criticism to western society. Feminism has earned the charitable inclusion of it's theories to modern American political discussions about making a "more perfect union". The individuals representing and working within feminist articulations of post-modern criticism deserve to be listened to with just as much charity as the rest of our legitimate political and social experts and academia.

It's a shame that this very powerful school of thought and criticism isn't given more positive media attention.