Does anyone here think this is "sexy"?

[PassingFair]

http://www.startribune.com/local/north/144678115.html

snip> A coach for the Blaine High School ninth-grade girls' basketball team was found engaged in sexual activity with one of her players in a vehicle at a city park this week, the Anoka County Sheriff's Office said Wednesday.

The 20-year-old woman from St. Paul was arrested Monday night and jailed on suspicion of first-degree criminal sexual conduct. Authorities say they expect a decision by Thursday on whether to file charges.

The coach and the 14-year-old girl both told officers they were in a sexual relationship, police added. < unsnip


I think the coach's very YOUNG age is somewhat mitigating in this circumstance, but
she still should be disciplined (at least) or prosecuted.

I really don't get that so many men on this board can't see beyond their own childhood
sexual fantasies and don't acknowledge these teacher/student sexual activities as the
crimes that they are.

[Richardo]

1. They ARE crimes, and IMO the teacher's age does not mitigate it at all.

When you reach legal adulthood, you'd better start thinking (and acting) like an adult.

[Drale]

2. In this case I agree with you

but when I was in high school a senior in high school and a junior in college were dating. the junior came to our school for her education classes and had to do some teaching. She wasn't student teaching yet. They tryied to make a huge deal out of it and the college student was arrested because the senior was only 17 and it was all just rediculous. Eventually all the charges where dropped but it scared these two people for something really stupid.

[seabeyond]

3. having raised sons, so seeing the reality of their emotional maturity and the reality instead of

Last edited Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:08 PM - Edit history (1)

middle aged man adolescent fantasy, i call bullshit on placing a boy in this scenario any differently than a girl.

as far as this situation, yes the teacher is young. so what? there are rules. and like hubby told me, this is an easy one for him. under 18 wrong. that simple. i ask for him to explore, and think.... nope. under 18, wrong. against the law. period. nothing else to discuss.

generally, i really want him to think further, but there are times with his thinking i really appreciate. i look at all angles, gray areas.... he is much more the black and white thinker. i am going to go with him on this.

[PassingFair]

5. Usually in these stories, they post a picture of the "hot" teacher...

Wonder why this is being handled differently?

Maybe because they haven't charged her yet?

I agree that this coach's actions constitute a crime.

[jberryhill]

9. "under 18, wrong. against the law. period."

In what state is that the law?

[MadrasT]

10. In 12 states:

Arizona
California
Delaware
Florida
Idaho
North Dakota
Oregon
Tennessee
Utah
Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming

Age of Consent Chart for U.S.

[Drale]

15. so a 18 year old and a 17 year old

Are dating its wrong? Techniquely its against the law.

[seabeyond]

16. he never felt the need to put himself in a position to go to prison

or be charged for a sexual crime.

as i say, i see things a bit more gray.

i would be the one that gets in trouble. he would be the one that would not get in trouble. make of it what you like.

[Cirque du So-What]

4. My objection is to the abuse of power

On what grounds can anyone claim that a teacher is NOT in a position of power and authority over the student in such a relationship? I consider any teacher who initiates such a relationship with a minor student as predatory - and that includes every possible male/female permutation possible. Sure, there may be instances where the minor is sufficiently mature - emotionally and in every way possible - to handle it without harm, but is the teacher in any position to make that determination for him/herself?

[Kali]

7. this is the more serious problem to me

chronological ages of sexual partners is more arbitrary, person in position of power (boss, teachers, law enforcement etc) is more problematic

[HopelesslyLiberal]

6. It's a crime but not just because of age

In Minnesota the statutory rape law is tiered based on the age difference between the participants not just the age of majority. Six years is outside the allowed difference. I don't know if other states do this but it allows for an 18/17 type relationship.

In this case, the age is in no way mitigating. This is a person with a position of power over the other participant. That alone provides a bright line test that this is wrong and should be regarded as criminal. The age difference is extreme and exacerbates the crime, it doesn't mitigate it.

When I was in high school it would have been socially unacceptable for a 17 yr old to date a 14 yr old. 20? Out of the question.

[HopelesslyLiberal]

8. and if you are keeping count.

I'm male.

[chemp]

11. Teacher/Student is a power gig.

Two teens, 17 & 18, even 16 & 18 I would not have an issue with. Someone in their twenties trolling high schools for dates is wrong.
And teacher/student, or Boss/employee is always wrong.

In MA, they tried to convict two minors for statutory rape. It baffled me. If neither was of the majority age, how is it statutory? And who raped whom if both consented?

[redqueen]

12. It's sick.

A 14 year old? Please. And on top of the massive age difference (given one of them is 14) there's also the power differential.

Only the porn obsessed would find this sexy. It's a 14 year old kid FFS.

[PassingFair]

13. Like we don't have people like that on this board...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=86040


MASSES of them.

[redqueen]

14. Oh heck yes we do.

They're the majority of people almost everywhere. Sex is now mostly just another overhyped product thanks to the P and its offshoot, capitalism.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. You said it perfectly. It's promoted by capitalism. nt

[Broderick]

17. sigh

Times have certainly changed. "Used" to be outrage, now people are just "used" to it.

[Scout]

19. 20 year old woman and 14 year old boy? no, it's wrong.

sexy or not, it's wrong. especially wrong for someone in a position of power, who should be a good example and a mentor, since that's the job she chose.

personally i have yet to meet a 14 year old boy that i would want to have sex with even if it weren't wrong. i certainly didn't want to have sex with any 14 year old boys when i was a teenager either. i suppose it's possible there is one out there somewhere ... but i really doubt it, especially at my ancient age now.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Yeah, it is wrong. But that's not the case in question. This was a 20 yr old woman & 14 yr. old girl

Just, you know, so you're aware.

And it's sort of interesting that, despite the fact that the news story repeatedly mentions things like "Girls' basketball team" and "14 year old girl" so many people here saw the story as being between a teen boy and a female teacher.. Isn't that fascinating?

Or, maybe just odd! Isn't that odd? I think it's odd. Why would that be, I wonder???

Hmm. Sounds like the kind of situation that would call for some deep introspective paradigm and assumption challenging in a bias-confrontational context.

[seabeyond]

21. or... it could be the last paragraph from the OP having the question shift to

mens fantasy applause of an older women and mostly in this scenario it is a boy.

[Scout]

22. nah, couldn't be that seabeyond,

it MUST be something nefarious, something "proving" bigotry.

[MadrasT]

24. And THAT was very evident on another thread on DU

And it was appalling.

[seabeyond]

25. thing is, i have teenage boys and nephews and a lot of their friends around

and i know what bullshit it is that these grown ADULT men give these kids this mentality when the kids themselves do not possess the capabilities. and these grown adult men were no more capable in their day. it is the very things that you and i have been talking about. creating a false illusion for boys and men to live. and then when they say something stupid, is it the reality or because they were taught.

[redqueen]

26. This is how sexuality is skewed.

We have adults pushing their beliefs onto younger generations, using jokes, culture, porn, etc.

[seabeyond]

27. this is what has bothered me for a decade, more. adults are playing in the kids sexual journey

we use to firmly say it was separate. that the porn was not for the kids. that the adult stay out of the kids world. reality, it is not happening. so now we find ways to appease us in what we know is unhealthy. kids have to learn sex somewhere. really? evolution says.... when a girl hits puberty, free game.... but i look young for my age.... but she looks old for her age.....

i loved my teens to explore in a healthy and totally age appropriate way. that is what we have taken from our children. they do their sexual journey in the adult world of sex.

[redqueen]

28. And worse, its the adult world that caters first and foremost

to men. Almost all porn is developed for the male gaze. Women's sexuality is hijacked before it has a chance to develop on its own.

And porn is getting more and more abusive and violent.

[seabeyond]

29. yup. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Thing is, when I hear about a sex crime, most of my outrage is reserved for the perpetrator.

In this case, a female coach who abused a female student.

I believe in holding abusers responsible, I don't care who they are- girls' soccer coaches, priests, what have you.

[seabeyond]

32. has anyone said differently? nt

[Warren DeMontague]

34. In this thread, I see outrage directed at porn, jokes, "hijacked sexuality" and DU in general.

And sort of confusing nebulous concepts, like "mens' fantasy applause".

I see way more of that than I see outrage directed at the person responsible, i.e. the female coach who abused her female student.

I find it worth noting, from a sociological standpoint. I'm not ascribing any particular meaning to it, but it's there.

[redqueen]

35. It's not that difficult to follow.

I guess you didn't manage it, but if you'll go back and read the thread more carefully, you might notice that the thread isn't actually about the news story in the OP, and that it is actually about the phenomenon whereby sex crimes against children are treated like a porny sideshow for grown men.

Later in the thread, an example of this disgusting behavior is even linked, for anyone lucky enough to have somehow managed to escape from seeing it for themselves already.

The phenomenon is male centric and fueled in many peoples opinions by the pornification of society.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. Hmmm. Interesting.

A crime committed by a female soccer coach on a female student is "male centric" and "fueled by the pornification of society". Those are some interesting assertions, I'd be extremely interested in seeing the specific data upon which they are based.

As well, it's a useful thought experiment to consider which sorts of societal pornification led to the prevalence, for instance, of marriages between what we consider adults and, say, 13 year olds, back when proto-feminists like Anthony Comstock were diligently preventing the distribution of images of naked people.

[redqueen]

40. Jesus Christ.

No, not the crime. For the I don't know how manyeth time, the subject of the thread is the act of treating this kind of crime like something hot and sexy and cool and awesome.

Fucking hell.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Oh, okay. So the thread is outrage about DU and the people who post here, and not a sex crime.

I get it.

[redqueen]

51. Yep exactly.

Because the only place men act so despicably is on DU. Ayup, you get it all right. Super job.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. Well, I sure hope they get what they deserve for their multitudinous and heinous crimes.

And maybe yeah the woman who is the sex criminal in the story, too, yeah, she probably ought to see some sort of consequence, too.

[redqueen]

53. duh

[seabeyond]

54. lol

i have so forgotten the simple

duh

[redqueen]

55. No point wasting big words

on spectacularly obvious shit.

I mean come the fuck on...

[Warren DeMontague]

56. you mean big words like, "heteronormative gender bias confrontational context consciousness raising"

"erotoxin hypersexuality pornification patriarchy"?

Those kinds of big words?

[seabeyond]

36. you made the point about 4, 5 times. i think you are trying to make something out of it.

Last edited Wed Apr 4, 2012, 10:30 AM - Edit history (2)

i think it is beyond weak, too. i am sure you have read the OP and i am sure you have read the other posters reply to you. the OP was not about the particular situation but about a man projecting his old man fantasy on our young boys. so, why do you keep bringing up the same point that has already been pointed out to you, your error? i know no one is fighting about this anywhere on du, and you are probably bored, looking to duke it our with someone, anyone, but this is not one to fight about.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. I'm just asking a question.

And the "error" seems to be on the part of the MULTIPLE people in this thread who - for whatever reason - assumed this story was about a 14 yr old boy.

[seabeyond]

39. it has been answered for you a number of times. one more time.

"I really don't get that so many men on this board can't see beyond their own childhood
sexual fantasies and don't acknowledge these teacher/student sexual activities as the
crimes that they are."

this is what most are addressing. it is a subject in general and not about that specific situation, hence why the fact it is a girl does not matter. almost always it is a boy with the older women and it is the male fantasy that is being addressed. do you get it yet?

[Warren DeMontague]

42. Funny, that you would write it in a thread that seems to entirely blow off the actual crime in favor

of complaining about the imagined attitudes of "those people" about the crime, or the crime you thought it was even though it was actually different.

[seabeyond]

43. really slow now.... because the OP was NOT about the actual crime.

this seems to be the sticking point for you that you are just. not. getting.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. No, I get it.

And again, perhaps the assumptions pertaining to the case and the varying degrees of priorities placed upon central vs. extraneous or imagined aspects might be a cause for some contfrontational heteronormative bias-challenging in consciousness raising self-examining critique format, which I always thought was historically one of the things we feminists are good at.

[seabeyond]

47. if you want to start a thread about the crime. do. and you will get a consistent answer

from the women here. it harms. it is wrong. it is a crime.

what would you like to reflect on?

[Warren DeMontague]

49. I'm challenging biases in a confrontational consciousness raising context

i.e. doin' my job.

[seabeyond]

50. you fail... nt

[MadrasT]

46. It isn't "imagined"

This is the kind of thing I believe we are discussing:

Sarah Jones, Cincinnati Bengals cheerleader, indicted for allegedly having sex with a minor

See replies #8, #21, #23.

Edit to add, though honestly if I hadn't also seen the (very recent) thread I just linked, I probably wouldn't be making the connection.

Edited again to add spin off thread here: If a man is good looking enough, is it okay if he sleeps with a minor? which I think also had some responses which provoked some alarm.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. I see what you're talking about, although it is a different story. All I can add is my own opinion.

My opinion which is, of course, that terms like "consenting adults" only have meanings if both "consent" and "adults" are bright, unequivocal lines- people need to accept that consenting adults are still consenting adults when they make choices those people may find objectionable, and people also need to accept that non-consent and non-adults are areas for criminal prosecution and deep moral condemnation.

And that needs to be universal, and consistent, whether the perpetrator is a "hot" female cheerleader or a well "respected" Priest. Oddly enough, if you look at the history, it's the child abusing priests who seem to get the most leeway, legally and socially, and carte blanche to continue their merry way free from prosecution or hassle. I think much of this is that so many people view the Church's stated anti-sex platform as inherently "moral", despite protecting child abusers.

(For some reason, advocates of open, adult sexuality who are unequivocal in their stances against child abuse- like, say, LGBT activists- are viewed, in many cases, as less moral than the Vatican. Weird.)

So, yes, these sorts of crimes are crimes, period. I do think there is room for reasonableness in these laws to cover, for instance, the high school senior and sophomore who have sex. Because when I was in High School, this sort of thing happened, it happens now, and I'm sure it happened when even the oldest members of this forum were in High School as well. Treating the 18 yr old who has sex with the 17 yr old as a sex criminal strikes me as a waste of lives and resources, and frankly misguided. This does not apply, of course, to the teacher/student dynamic outlined in the thread.

I think one thing that is happening in many of these stories is that (some) people get their own memories of teenage sexual fantasies tangled up with the reality of a criminal abuse situation. They're wrong, and misguided. I ALSO think that there are some people on this board who are angered by any expression of sexuality or expression of appreciation of sexual attractiveness (i.e. "hot&quot in ANY context, and basically more than the crime itself it is the fact that there is a perpetrator who is being viewed as attractive by (some) people on the board that is the real cause for the tension, anger, and mental anguish.

[Scout]

23. 20 year old woman and 14 year old girl is also wrong

not sure why you're trying to make some deep dark twisted meaning out of it

[Warren DeMontague]

30. I'm wondering why everyone assumed it was an 14 yr old boy, when it says right

There, it wasn't.

...doesn't that strike you as worth examining in the context of heteronormative paradigm and bias challenging self-examination?

[MadrasT]

33. Well, most people are straight

I get what you are asking, but I think the tendency to mistakenly assume it was a boy is because odds were that it was.

It is interesting that folks missed that it was a girl, but I don't think there is some dark hidden "feminists automatically demonize men" bias in this case.

However, yeah, some feminists do seem to demonize men sometimes, and that is something to be aware of.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Thank you for the linear and cogent reply.