History of Feminism
Related: About this forum'Ugly girl': The negative messages we send to our daughters
Last week, the Everyday Sexism Project received a deeply moving entry from a fifteen-year-old girl.
It might seem shocking to some, but it was just the latest of many hundreds of similar posts we have received from girls in their teens and younger.
...
Her words reveal a keen perception of double standards in a society that tells young women they can have all the same dreams men can, study at any academic institution they wish and aim for any career path they choose, whilst simultaneously inundating them with an onslaught of daily messages that as women they will be judged almost exclusively on the basis of their looks, regardless of success.
...
From the advertising industry and its narrow media ideal of female beauty to the normalised objectification of Page 3; from articles that deconstruct the outfits of female politicians to the programs teaching girls how to nip, tuck, change and disguise their bodies; these messages are everywhere, everyday. The pressure on women and young girls to conform to such stereotypes is overwhelming, and until it is tackled, it will continue to undermine attempts to convince young women like this teenager that she really can “be whatever I want to be”.
The beauty myth, indeed. Keeps us all distracted effectively enough though.
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Trillo
(9,154 posts)If someone had a picture of themselves on their webpage, it was just a typical daily dress, no makeup, etc. That was the time when the MSM media was largely contemptuous of the Internet. As more years passed, and the Internet became more popular, and MSM slowly changed their mind, all the glitter that existed in prior MSM media now exists on the Internet. This includes the advertising industry's "narrow media ideal" of beauty. In a sense, the very thing that made the Internet so attractive, was destroyed as it was usurped by Big Corporate's patterns of business as usual.
Good for that 15 year old for sticking the truth to them.
lalalu
(1,663 posts)It's human nature. Men get judged based on looks too. The difference is that men have learned to compensate in other ways if they aren't good looking.
Instead of whining we should teach young girls to concentrate and enhance all their attributes. Pretending your ugly daughter isn't ugly won't work. Teach her to value herself as a complete human being but be honest about the situation.
Being attractive for a woman can be just as crippling. You aren't suppose to be pretty and intelligent unless it's in a movie. It is assumed you slept with someone or you are related to someone if you achieve success. It couldn't possibly be because you are intelligent.
Looks do matter either way and being attractive does help open doors. But in the end it is results that matter. Pretty or ugly you need intelligence and the ability to get the job done.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And this is not "whining".
You are in a protected group. Kindly take notice of the goals of this group before commenting further.
lalalu
(1,663 posts)I speak from working in the real world. I did not say the pressure was "equal". I said the pressure exists for both sexes and that is a reality. The difference is that men have learned tactics on how to compensate if they are not attractive.
In the real world some of the most sexist people obsessed with looks are women themselves. The most openly and blatant sexist remark I ever encountered was from another woman. The nastiness of women towards other successful women is very real. Especially if the women are attractive.
This whole thing of sisterhood in the working world is a big myth. If attitudes are to be changed then women need just as much changing as men.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Yes, most women have internalized the patriarchal standards that we grow up thinking are normal. Not sure what point you're trying to make. This isn't "battle of the sexes".
Did you bother to read the description of the group?
Or even the article? Here's a hint. It says absolutely NOTHING about men needing to change. Your defensive reaction also speaks volumes.
lalalu
(1,663 posts)Your stereotyping me based on my post proves just how full of it this group and all the others are. Still wonder why you can't attract young women to get involved in the feminist movement? You will never get the point because you don't want to and that is what turns so many women off your groups.
Stop with the poor women objectified nonsense. Women choose to make these decisions. They have brains and free will. Learn to use them.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)How exactly did I stereotype you?
Also, thank you for not answering my questions. I'll take that as indicating both responses are in fact negative.
lalalu
(1,663 posts)and in a protected class. Simply because my view does not coincide with the women as victim view. Sexism is very real but the theory that women have no control over their decisions is wrong. It is the same as the theory of women as children who need a man to make decisions for them.
The reality is that the industry is driven by choices made by women. Women have the power to make changes themselves but most don't have the will and choose not to. No one forces women to buy and pay top dollar for heels that wreck havoc on their health. Yet they take their hard earned dollars and spend money on fashions that "objectify" them. Who is really at fault and doing the objectifying?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Again, this group isn't restricted on the basis of sex.
The "women as victim" meme is a canard. No one has said that women have no choices.
Here's a link you may find helpful. Enjoy your day.
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/purpose/
DLevine
(1,788 posts)Redqueen said "You are in a protected group", as in "History of Feminism is a protected group". Nobody said anything about you being in a protected class, or assuming you are male. This is a protected group, in other words, it is a safe haven for like-minded feminists.
lalalu
(1,663 posts)DLevine
(1,788 posts)lalalu
(1,663 posts)This is why most women can't stand feminist groups. I will definitely not bother posting here again.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)avoid feminism.
But it's not for the reasons you think.
Also, welcome to DU. You may be thinking 'those stupid feminists!' but we agree on far more than we disagree. And I argue and am a bit blunt I know, but I sincerely did not mean to attack you personally 
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i never unstood that and i hear it an awful lot. it is like a refelct knee response, and regardless of what is said, it is continually repeated.
i dont see why.... bring something to awareness makes on a victim.
and i am all for women recognizing the issues we have. and addressing. speaking out. taking control.
lalalu
(1,663 posts)I won't post to this group. Just leave me out of it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)and have a look at where that meme shows up.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)to bring balance. but, i keep responding to yours.
there are a lot of young women that are forefront in exactly what we are talking about. the meme out is that the young women are resistant. and that is not really fact, that we are seeing more and more of.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)women are set up to be competitive in looks from day one. that isnt an unknown.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)The article said NOTHING about men.
And some of the women quoted said they knew they had to change.
The kneejerking defensiveness in protection of the poor, not even being attacked men gets right on my last nerve.
No attempt to read or understand what's being said. Just an immediate attack on women and girls, and standing up for the noble, righteous, superior men, who have so bravely compensated for being judged so harshly on their appearance and not their accomplishments... so ubiquitously, for so very long.
What. The. Fuck.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)Every. Fuck. Time.
But men do it too!
But it happens to men too!
But men!
But men!
But but BUT BUT BUT men MEN MEN !!!
I have yet to have one SINGLE fucking conversation with BF about feminism that doesn't turn into a conversation about men within 3 minutes.
Why don't feminists ever talk about men's problems?!!!
Um, because it is fucking feminism, not men-ism.
It has a name for a goddamn reason.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)But that's a patriarchal mindset for you. I have a suspicion that people who reflexively WHATABOUTTHEMENZ every issue are the same ones who think "the patriarchy" means "men".
Every single issue must SOMEHOW relate to men. Either how they handle it better, handle more of it, understand it better, blah blah fucking blah!
It's like those people whom you can't say jack shit to without them trying to one up you. 'Oh you have a headache? Well I have migraines!'
Point of clarification: This post is not about our new visitor, but the extremely frequent tactic of changing the subject.to men in feminist discussions, discussions of women's issues, etc
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)a hell of a lot of damage that the patriarchy creates for the men.
it is just that, when i talk about the men.... they do not like hearing what i am saying. because, like many women that are conditioned, they do not like hearing how so much of their behavior is from conditioning and not biology.
but really.... if they want me to talk about the men
i am all there
i have two boys. been addressing the men issue for 17 yrs now.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)It the fact that EVERY SINGLE TIME I bring up any feminist issue, it gets derailed with "BUT MEN..." as a defensive tactic, and to me it feels like an effort to try to minimize and downplay the importance of the issue I am concerned about.
Every. Fuck. Time.
The other thing I hear continually is basically: "But more women than men are graduating from college now so feminism isn't needed anymore, it's all better now."
Yes more women are graduating college now. That is a terrible imbalance and I am concerned about what is happening to our boys that has caused this trend. It shouldn't be. Something bad is happening to boys in the education system. It is a REAL PROBLEM and it should be talked about. I don't want boys and men to suffer.
But it doesn't also mean everything is magically all better for women now.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)people (ok, women) actually saying out loud how the sexism is more insidious than ever before.
it is good to hear it begin, that though we tried the embracing of our slut, and the sex positive, it has only created a more insidious sexism.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)A good old radical feminist site regularly such as IBTP, where that kind of distorted thinking is not allowed.
Women may be graduating in higher numbers, but who are getting the jobs of authority? Or tenured?
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)Let's not forget that women still get paid significantly less than men for doing the same or equivalent jobs.
In my opinion, the feminist movement has barely started. There is much more to do. We still haven't passed the Equal Rights Amendment. We're still one Supreme Court justice away from potentially losing the right to have an abortion. And our sisters in many other countries are still denied education, denied the right to determine their own future, denied the right to choose a spouse, denied the right to choose or refuse childbearing, forced to cover their bodies, executed at the slightest "offense" to their male overlords. Women aren't free from the fear of rape.
I am not a free woman until all other women and girls on this planet have the same rights that I have, and more.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Agree completely. Women lulled into complacency are not free.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)they have never been ratched to this self worth level, any time in the past that i am aware of.
i get what you are saying. i pretty much agree with a lot that you are saying.
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)"... making contemporary American and European women the slaves of the fashion industry in its various forms helps prevent them from getting any ideas in their pretty little heads that might endanger the status and power of men."
My post, in its entirety, from the DU thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1599091 asking why Mormon women are covered up:
I know zero about Mormons, but veiling conceals a woman's sexuality and power
As a matriarchal feminist who reveres a divine Goddess, I believe in the existence of an earlier, matriarchal religion or religions that predated male-dominant religions in some parts of the world. I realize that various archaeologists have tried to debunk this theory, but to me, it makes some sense. I'm not an archaeologist or any kind of expert scholar, but I've done a lot of reading in this area.
Patriarchal religions, in at least their most extreme forms, seek to conceal the sexuality, power and divinity of women. I feel it was originally a reaction by men who previously had to revere the divine, life-creating power of the Mother Goddess, and by extension, Her daughters, women. When they took over the women's roles, they also took similar garments, and covered up the women.
I don't think it is any coincidence that male religious leaders in many patriarchal religions wear "dresses" in the form of long robes, and this tradition still exists in various forms. For example the pope, cardinals and many priests wear "dresses". Meanwhile Catholic nuns conceal most of their hair and the tops of their heads. Catholic women, as many of the responders noted, used to have to cover their heads to some degree AND their shoulders. Bare upper arms were not allowed at Masses in the 1960s, as far as I know. Likewise, Orthodox Jewish women must conceal their hair after marriage, and many Islamic women cover their heads, as well as faces or their entire bodies, depending on the local custom. A woman's hair symbolizes her power; concealing the hair takes away that power. In some places, I believe Ireland and France, women accused of collaborating with enemies have had their heads shaved as part of their punishment. A woman without her hair is seen as a woman without power.
Covering women up and treating them as virtually toxic is supposed to protect the males from their (former) power. Orthodox Jewish men don't even touch women other than their wives, lest those women be menstruating and thus giving off invisible "cooties", as I call them, requiring the men to do all kinds of cleansing and self-purification. That's how much women, and their unseen power, freak out men. Covering them up supposedly keeps women from getting "uppity" and/or rebelling against the patriarchal system.
In the same way, making contemporary American and European women the slaves of the fashion industry in its various forms helps prevent them from getting any ideas in their pretty little heads that might endanger the status and power of men.
LibE
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Do you know about this woman?
http://www.suppressedhistories.net/
I think she's mostly on Facebook now, but she's incredible. She's an archeologist, I don't know that she practices any religion but she talks about the incredible male bias in the history unearthed by archeology, and seeks to remedy that
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)I will definitely read up on her.
I greatly admired Marija Gimbutas, who died in 1994. She was one of the early researchers into matriarchal culture through archaeology.
http://marijagimbutas.com/
Other writers I read in my younger days: Barbara Walker, "The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets", among many other titles: Merlin Stone, "When God was a Woman"; Patricia Monaghan "The Goddess Path".
One of the most fascinating books on women's history is "Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years" by Elizabeth Wayland Barber. Published in 1994, this is not Goddess-oriented, but a look at the earliest archaeological discoveries of cloth remnants and spinning tools, and their evolution and use over millennia.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)And I've read "When God was a Woman", ( it's been a while though) but not the other two. The one by Elizabeth barber sounds right up my alley.
I also like the work of Elaine Pagels, even if its Christian theology,(I'm agnostic)she takes great pains to present a very convincing case of women of..power I guess you'd say, in Jesus' time, and what happened to that, through the politics of the church. Shes written several books, in them She includes how sections of early interpretations promoted homophobia as well as condemnation of 'witches' as well as loss of status for women in the early Christian church.
Another great book is called 'The Masculinization of Medicine, but I no longer have that one-- probably lent it out, and I forget the author. But it traces, amount other things the history of midwives and how their status was stolen.
