Women Speak Drastically Less When They’re Surrounded by Dudes. And That’s Bad.

[redqueen]

http://jezebel.com/5944642/women-speak-75-less-when-theyre-surrounded-by-dudes-and-thats-bad?post=52818886

Womanhood is full of frustrating hunches, and society is full of people who want to pooh-pooh those hunches. "I'm pretty sure I'm being treated like shit right now because of my vagina," we women say. "Shut UP, women! Because menget injured in industrial accidents! Therefore, equality reigns!" the pooh-poohers reply. There's almost nothing as satisfying as having one's hunches backed up by science. So color me delighted by this new study published in American Political Science Review, which found that, in collaborative group settings,"the time that women spoke was significantly less than their proportional representation—amounting to less than 75 percent of the time that men spoke."

HA. That is just about the truest shit that I have ever heard. I (and, I suspect, pretty much any woman) can access that feeling really quickly and vividly—when you find yourself in conversation with a circle of men and, against your better judgment and all your feminist impulses, you just turtle up. You retire. You forfeit, because their lungs are bigger, they're groomed for assertiveness since birth, and you're groomed to assume that nobody will take you seriously anyway. You wait for a pause in a room of interruptors. Sigh. I do it like crazy, and I am a fucking loudmouth feminist yelling machine.

So it's satisfying to have one's hunches backed up by a study like this: It's not just me failing at feminism, and it's not just men being paternalistic dicks, it's some sort of sinister societal force that shepherds us into those roles. This isn't just teh evil menz (blah blah blah) doing this to us—we are active participants. We are turtlers. Nothing is solved here—no one is to blame and everyone is to blame—but it's comforting, at least, to confirm that it is happening.

And it's not good. According to the study's authors, women contributed to the conversation much more when it was framed as consensus-building rather than a majority-rules vote. And when women's voices were included, the group's conclusions were profoundly different:

...

Interesting findings from this joint study out of BYU and Princeton. We really desperately need more women in politics. In some Scandinavian countries they use quotas to force the situation, in politics and board rooms too. Given the glacial pace of change here, and the recent regression, I'm starting to wonder if it might be helpful here, not that it would ever sell.

And yeah, yeah, yeah, 'but Michelle Bachmann!' I know. However I think we would have a better chance of not having 37 states where the prosecution of women for falling down stairs while pregnant was a real threat if we had equal representation in legislatures.

[seabeyond]

1. i am doing another post on this OP but, i want to address something i have been thinking about.

i have discussed how women cannot gain ownership of our sexuality by throwing it out there, challenging, and saying this is mine. from what i see as a society, it is merely feeding it in our society and the misogynist men are getting what they want and need. it is like boobquake. making a statement about a pres saying that all that is evil is a womans cleavage. so what do women in u.s. do? all 6 young women? they have a press conference of forty men, surrounding as they lift up their top and flash them. yea. all the news jumping up and down.... boobies, boobies. all it did was reduce these young women to boobies. not as people. and not with a message to be heard.

slut walk. you know how much the men love them some slut walks. getting to say, slut slut slut, over and over. yet we think we are giving a message, accomplishing a damn thing, as the men get to giggle like little kids saying slut, and not getting at all what is being said or care what women are saying, because the word slut is not the issue.

an almost four minute video of young women jumping around topless to tell men in two sentences to check their boobies. not a single thought about male breast cancer, nor an interest cause really it is about putting it into a mans forum to say, boobies.... see see, and we got away with it to piss off women here on du, cause it is about mens health. used as a tool, as so often used, using a video of naked women, to put other women in their place.

women constantly throwing out vagina to have ownership of our body, not something to hide.... yet, with the porn, when is the womans body really hid. the constant verbal nakedness in societies mind of the naked woman. we think we are owning, and all we are doing is feeding into the forever dissecting of the womans body. relentlessly.

danish and swedish have now put out middletons pictures. saying it is ok, cause they are sweet pictures showing a loving relationship, not vulgar. as if that is the point. regardless of what a woman has to say about her nakedness being splashed in all the magazines.

pussy riot. all the play and fun the misogynist had without being called out.

hbo's effort to cross the line of full frontal nudity. and adding as much gratuitous frontal nudity to their series saying that they want it to be the norm. nothing wrong with nudity. buck up you puritans. but... the only gratuitous frontal nudity is a parade of women. never the man. or so little. a quick flash. if it was merely to desensitize us to nakedness, then men would equally be flashing their penis at every turn. it is not. it is not shown, or very fast, very little. it is about, a womans role.

protest where women want to be heard, so to be heard they take off the top. lots of attention. saying, we are heard. no, we are not heard, we are reduced to merely our sexuality and the message is lost.

to be seen as a person, and be heard as a person, we have to get away from placing ourselves in the role as the "sexual" being, exclusively. you know, using our brain, and speaking out. endlessly. but all this yelling vagina, is not gonna do it for us. it only keeps us in the place of the sex person, for the men that want to keep us there.

this is just something else i see in our culture that is growing leaps and bounds and was thinking about it. thoughts. no more. i do not know the right or wrong in it. i am only exploring this. but have been feeling this for a while.

[redqueen]

3. Yes, I think you raise some good points.

In the world as it is, it just doesn't work. The only way it could work is if it was both men and women, and the women weren't caricatures of femininity. Hippie style, maybe it could work. Porny McSexxxy Sex style, that only adds to, as you put it, handing our sexuality to men.

One thing I've been thinking of lately is how our sexuality is just ignored. Our sexuality is replaced with what men want to see. The portrayal of sex is nearly always centered around men's desires, and that's bad.

[MadrasT]

2. Women who speak out are still disliked and shunned.

Told we're arrogant, bossy, have poor "people skills", need to learn to "get along" better (which basically means sit down and shut up like a good little girl).

It takes an enormous amount of energy to speak out and to continue to speak out when we continually receive negative feedback for doing so.

A woman who doesn't just smile, remain relatively silent (unless she is agreeing or "being supportive" like a proper female), and not make waves is NOT NICE and a NOT NICE woman is a pariah.

I have worked in heavily male-dominated fields all my life, been there, done that, and am unapologetically "NOT NICE". It gets exhausting sometimes, but I am physiologically incapable of sitting down and shutting up, especially when someone expects me to sit down and shut up.

Whatever. I am not on earth to participate in a popularity contest. Thank heaven I am an introvert and don't require much in the way of human interaction to be happy. It would be hell on an extravert.

These days I pick my battles carefully. Sometimes it just isn't worth it. Sometimes it is.

[redqueen]

4. What I find infuriating is when women join in.

'You're not helping your cause, you know.'
'You catch more flies with honey.'
Etc etc etc ad nauseam ad infinitum.
*retch*

[ismnotwasm]

5. You know it's funny

When discussing careers for women, nursing, since it's a traditional women's 'role', is often used as a way of showing how far we haven't come in equalizing the job market. Teachers as well. What isn't as well known is how far nursing itself has developed and grown. I would hazard a guess that it's grown professional precisely because we are predominantly female. We do speak up. In fact, we raise hell when we need to.
Is this growth in influence and power because women are less constrained by the presence of men? There are plenty of men in nursing. Plenty of men in health care, but they are not predominant, as in any other profession where some good 'ol boy system is in place.

But there are Words for assertive women, we know what they are. Those words and that attitude as well as the negative self talk, that's hard to overcome, like the institutionalized sexism it springs from

[seabeyond]

6. very good article. something administrators on du should take into consideration.

"In school boards, governing boards of organizations and firms, and legislative committees, women are often a minority of members and the group uses majority rule to make its decisions," Mendelberg said. "These settings will produce a dramatic inequality in women's floor time and in many other ways. Women are less likely to be viewed and to view themselves as influential in the group and to feel that their 'voice is heard.'"

i brought this point up while du3 was just practicing. the small handful of women on du cannot have a voice. it has been proven. the men can shout any conversation down and it no longer becomes worth it.

Perhaps most significantly, it just goes back to that hoary old double standard—when men speak up to be heard they are confident and assertive; when women do it we're shrill and bitchy. It's a cliche, but it's true. And it leaves us in this chicken/egg situation—we have to somehow change our behavior (i.e. stop conceding and start talking) while simultaneously changing the perception of us (i.e. asserting that assertiveness does not equal bitchiness). But how do you assert that your assertiveness isn't bitchiness to a culture that perceives assertiveness as bitchiness? And how do you start talking to change the perception of how you talk when that perception is actively keeping you from talking? Answer: UGH, I HAVE NO IDEA.

it never bodes well when a woman adopts a mans voice. on the one hand, we are told we are too quiet, not assertive enough, not aggressive enough. not to the point. when we adopt this speak so men can supposedly hear us, we are labeled a bitch. that simple. a situation created so there are no wins.

But I guess I will start with this pledge I just made up: I, Lindy West, a shrill bitch, do hereby pledge to talk really really loud in meetings if I have something to say, even if dudes are talking louder and they don't like me. I refuse to be a turtle—unless it is some really loud species of brave turtle with big ideas. I will not hold back just because I'm afraid of being called a loudmouth bitch (or a "trenchmouth loud ass," which I was called the other day and as far as I can tell is some sort of pirate insult). Also, I will use the fuck out of the internet, because they can't drown you out on the internet. The end. Amen or whatever.

i too have concluded, fuck it. my voice is gonna go out there regardless how people want to label me. hence, why so many people have a tough time reading my posts. i dont mince words. suppose to be a good thing, .... but, for many, too hard to hear this from a woman.

[JoeyT]

7. Sort of a little off topic,

but have you ever noticed the guys that drag out the "Men get injured in industrial accidents! Warghlbargl!!!" gripe are never actually in a field that has industrial accidents? The worst they've ever had to contend with was usually a risk of carpal tunnel.

More on topic: Even guys knew this was true long before this study came out. The only way I can think of to break the cycle is to say "What do you think about <subject>, <woman's name>?" (Assuming the woman is the kind of person that's comfortable talking to a group of people. Hate dragging introverts/shy people into conversations they want no part of.)

Forcing the men to acknowledge that there not only is a woman present, but that she might have something to say that rivals or exceeds their own contribution means they'll either get used to hearing women speak to them as equals or they'll whine. In the former they'll start asking women to participate or acknowledging women that are. In the latter they'll whine and can be slapped down.

"it's some sort of sinister societal force that shepherds us into those roles." I think there's a word for that. Starts with a P and ends with a Y.

[redqueen]

8. I'd say that's pretty on topic. :). nt

[seabeyond]

9. i would imagine a good manager would, being aware.

i know when i was a manager, there would be particular people i wanted to hear from, but i knew they were to quiet and hesitant to speak out. i would purposely ask then what they thought. and it was effective. also when someone rides over what another is saying, make sure the conversation gets back to the speaker that was interrupted.

back in the 80's and 90's there were management courses that addressed this.

also, i think it is really important we teach our girls today, their right to their voice.

[seabeyond]

10. btw... my brother has always worked in high risk occupations. oil, underwater welder,

inspector of oil and nuclear plants and other related projects.

they make the money. they money they earn factors into the rate of pay.

that makes a difference.

[JoeyT]

11. Yep, me too, mostly.

Rigger, electrician, boilermaker, fitter, ironworker, VFD, etc.

I wish there were more women in those jobs. I prefer working with them because they're generally less dangerous to themselves and less dangerous to others.

It's very rare I've ever had to grab a woman and say "What the hell is wrong with you? Stay out of pinch points or you're going to lose a limb or die horribly." or yell "GTFO from under my load, you moron!" or "Slingshot! Slingshot! Move! Move!" at them. It happens with d00dz on every single job I've ever been on. Every. Single. Day. Every. Single. Job. And then they argue with me. Because the lethality of having several tons dropped on you from several hundred feet in the air is debatable.

The only helpers I ever had as an industrial electrician were women. One of them is a journeyman the other is a master now. The master is generally the lead on whatever job she's on. The helper that hires in with me when I do rigging work is a woman, and she's just about ready to sit her NCCER and become a journeyman. (Journeywoman?) Men are much harder to get to listen when you're trying to tell them what they're doing might get them killed. (And before an MRA wanders by and hauls out a cross to nail themselves to: I'm also a dude. And hardheaded. )

I think once we get enough women in those kind of jobs, the companies are going to find out they're less likely to have to scrape them out of a crater of shattered concrete and be much more receptive to hiring them. If nothing else, the insurance rates and equipment rental rates are lower for companies with employees that don't get hurt or tear stuff up.

[seabeyond]

12. that is an interesting perspective.

i had not thought of that. while reading i was thinking of my other brother and his son. their high risk behavior then how they would puff chest in confrontation if called out for carelessness. i can just see what you are saying, with a couple of men like them.

me? i am a coward, and i do not like pain, nor risking pain, so i willing stay in the lower end wage jobs so i dont have to have an oowie, lol. but good to hear women getting into these professional. i cannot pull out anything noteworthy working with either man or woman. i just go to work, do the job and get on. i have not really taken note of any difference....

[JustAnotherGen]

13. You are much like my husband

He has a few lines of business - one is an iron works/metal work that draws upon his artist background. Example - someone wants a railing for their Red Bank NJ Mansion - custom designed. So the architects throw around his name/portfolio - he designs and he creates . . . with a team.

In the past 5 years - his high achievers, most trusted, most detailed (very important for what he does) are his female employees. Three - he recruited while they were in high school /vo-tech traning. If he can't be there to oversee production - there are two in particular that he trusts. And they do tend to say - watch it. be careful. stop playing with the 'fire'. Literally - don't play with the fire.

But - he has to search for women. . . really really search for women with this mechanical skill set that ALSO have an artistic background. And his next step - is women that will tell him to shut up and listen to what I'm trying to tell you. He respects another point of view. . . And his business you gotta gotta gotta speak up when you work those projects.


He also (shhhhhhhhhh) thinks women are more loyal to him. Tee hee.