For those who think I rant about the patriarchy and misogyny too much

[seabeyond]

To the first man, who I met by the Eiffel Tower my second week in Paris, when I didn’t know better. Who took me out four times, who waved little red flags that I tried to ignore. Like asking me outright if I was a virgin on the first date, like calling me five different pet names when I’d asked him not to throughout the second, like saying he’d heard that feminists were not real women during the third, like disappearing for a week and a half after the fourth. Who, as it turns out, was not the bullet, but the careening fourteen-wheeler that I narrowly managed to dodge. Who admitted that he hit the young woman that his mother was trying to force him to marry. Who didn’t want to marry her because he believes in romantic love. Who doesn’t see the contradiction in those two sentences.

*

To the PhD student who tried to take me up to his apartment after a five minute conversation, when I had just wanted to get lunch, who said there’s a first time for everything. Who told me that we were university students, living in a 21st century democracy, and that relations between men and women were different now, so what was I so scared of? Who recoiled in shock when I told him that I had friends who’d been raped, and by other university students, at that. Who does not have to think about rape on a daily basis. Who insisted on paying for my lunch, because “it was a matter of honor.” Who then physically prevented me from handing my money to the cashier, when I was trying to make it clear that this was not a date. Who didn’t believe me when I said I didn’t want a boyfriend, five times. Whose number I blocked the moment I stepped on the metro. Who has called me three times since. Who told me he wants to go into Senegalese politics. Who, I can only hope, will listen to the women of his country better than he listened to me.

*

To the two men Thursday night in le Marais, swaggering drunk toward me, ignoring the male friend standing by my side, who leered at my chest and slurred, “Bonsoir, comme tu es mignonne,” as I shoved past them, trying to sound angry, not afraid. Who left me feeling fidgety and panicked, so when I took the night bus in the wrong direction and found myself alone with two other strange men at a bus stop at 2:30 A.M., I let the cab driver fleece me out of 25 euro just to take a taxi home.

*

To all the Italian men who made me wish I had dyed my hair black before studying in Florence, who kept me from going out dancing because I got sick of feeling them creeping up behind me, sneaking their hands around my waist (and lower) when I’d already said NO three times. To the six-foot-something Georgetown student who prided himself on protecting the girls from being groped on the dance floor. Who chose to write about the rape of the Sabine woman for that week’s assignment. Who described the way her breast slipped free of her tunic when she fell, as if he was writing a porno, not a rape scene, who had the woman fall in love with her Roman rapist the next morning, after he spun her a tale of the coming glory of his country. Who said “in a fit of passion, she thrust herself upon his member” and was not joking. Who ended the story with the titular character saying to her children that she had been raped, but only at first.


To my father, who said, “What white male privilege?” Who was not being ironic.

http://thelittlekneesofbees.tumblr.com/post/19597385648/for-those-who-think-i-rant-about-the-patriarchy-and
_________________________-

this was sent to me. to get the real feel, you need to read from start to finish.

[LiberalLoner]

1. Very good. But it makes me sick to read things like that because I've already

lived through a whole lifetime of that. I don't think I can handle any more of it.

And I don't think it's getting any better. There really is a war on women out there going on.

[TheMastersNemesis]

2. You Can Rant

You can rant all you want as far as I am concerned. After watching the movie "Iron Jawed Women" about women's fight for the right to vote, I think women should be able to rant all they want. And they should be ranting about passing the Equal Rights Amendment as well. That would stop a lot of the assaults on women's rights and freedom.

[seabeyond]

3. thank you for your post.

i wonder sometimes if i am the only one that speaks out when i hear and see, and how do i make myself not, so i am not annoying. yet on the other hand, i think that everytime i have been faced with racism or homophobia or anti antisemitism i have ALWAYS spoken out. even to the point of embarrassing myself. in front of 200 people at an auction. i feel if i dont speak out, i am worse than the offender. i feel that i know better and letting it slide is what allows us to be to the point that we have to rant about the Equal Rights Amendment.

i have been thinking about this the last couple days. hard. lol. and then i hear this young women, too, speaks out too often.

[TheMastersNemesis]

15. Going Back To The Future

I was recently chastised by a young lady when I posted a thread where I was expressing concern that younger women might not be active enough in challenging the "war on women". I was glad to hear from this person that they were very active in politics. And it is very important to be involved in these elections. So I am glad to see participation on that level.

I remember well the open public demonstrations carried out by the "feminist" movement in the 1960's and 1970's. I do believe that women need to repeat that openly aggressive and outspoken political kickback today more than ever. I do not believe that women
will l succeed in this war unless they get out in the street and challenge the GOP leadership and candidates. They need to be rebuffed on the spot. Militarily when you are being assaulted you have to double down and counter attack immediately.

Retreat or silence is NOT an option in the light of the latest threats to women. I believe your outspokenness is just the response that these fools should get. Letting their lies remain even for an instant is damaging. Women and men of conscience have to aggressively attack publicly and never apologize.

When Phyliss Schafly comes out at the Eagle Forum and directly says that she plans to make "feminism" an evil word like liberal, then women have to respond and even be personal with that witch who was pretty much responsible for stopping the ratification of ERA. Any insult hurled at that her is justified. There are no rules in this war on women's rights.

Were I to see he in person I would not care if I insulted her to her face and called her every terrible name in the book. The savagery that she plans to inflict on women demands a blistering and unmerciful response. She is a domestic terrorist and needs to be at least verbally terrorized in return. Women need to become militant and confrontive like women in the past. The GOP and conservatives are counting on womens public silence and parliamentary efforts. They own the game there. And they are working on stopping women from voting as well. Social networks are important in this fight. But old fashioned public confrontation and mockery has its place as well.

Believe me the GOP and idiots like Schafly and their religious allies intend to strip women of every right they have and their dignity as well. The attack on feminism is happening because these old white cracker GOP politicians who are mostly men demand the same subservience the Saudis enforce on their women. They are terrified of being put in their place.

The fact that you speak up where you have shows a lot of hutzpa. Speaking up while surrounded by the enemy is one of the most difficult things in the world to do.

[seabeyond]

28. "Letting their lies remain even for an instant is damaging. " yes, this is what i see.

thank you.

i was at a family gathering of 18. 80% were opposed to what was happening. and stayed quiet.

i spoke out. ruined my vacation. i told hubby (it was his people. mine know me well and love me anyway), do you think it is easy for me to be the one voice against 17? not easy. dont like it. dont want to do it. would be a hell of a lot easier if the majority would speak out, too.

it is hard

another, thanks

[WingDinger]

4. The problem is

Little boys, growing up, see how the GAME is played. The guys that were ahead of the others, used coercion, confusion, drugs and alcohol, tricks, dominance, naughty veiled references, anything and everything to get much further than us shy, or normal boys. In the absence of solid education, which will be fought as against feminazi's, boys will be edumacated by slightly to full blown sociopaths. Peers that use tricks, and succeed. Add to this that their prey, are reluctant to admit they were played, or raped.

I grew up with a glandular giant big man on campus. He was a real sociopath. He would do black magic, create schemes, spy, get angry when they didnt cooperate, use every unsavory trick in the book. I used to meditate against his trying to cast SPELLS. Without his knowledge.

As he was talking to me on his porch, as I was moving, as he was getting married, he said, with his future wife present, "you never really had the KILLER INSTINCT". I replied, "I didnt want to kill anyone, just find a friend.

Who do you think got geometrically more ACTION?

[redqueen]

5. Ugh, really?

The 'women love assholes' shit? Here? Seriously?

[WingDinger]

6. Ask any boy. If sociopathy had zero payoff, why would they even try?

Further, it is another reason why boys/men go for younger, less wary females.

PS, what do you think of my contention that boys need quality education on decent conduct? Instead of the kid next door?

[seabeyond]

7. from day one, i have taught boys to be their better self, in all manners. what a parents job is

regardless of what aspect of society.

what i have seen with older men going after the kids is.... the women their age dont buy into their shit. they have to get someone desperate in need, or inexperienced and low self esteem.

as far as nice boys gettin the girl. my son is 17. he has girls all over wanting him. some friends. some more. he is considered one of the nicest in his school. always was trusted by the girls and they often used him to talk to. but at his age, he is well rewarded for that nice.

we have had this conversation often. when he was younger, 13, 14, 15, he would talk about how the bad boys got the girl. we discussed how the bad boy was also the one that put himself out there. that if he took the risks, he too would get the reward. he got better at it, and now he gets numbers all over. he is in track and cross country, so he meets kids from different schools. he isnt shy anymore and he has had a lot of conversations with girls in different schools.

he isnt buying the "only want bad boy" thing anymore. and good for him

actually, i wasnt even aware of this whole thing until du and hearing people talk. i never settled for any less than a good person. my standards was i had to respect and be respected. i didnt know i was suppose to get all hot over a man that treated me like shit. not how i grew up. not what i expected or allowed.

[WingDinger]

9. Not how I grew up.

Taht is KEY. Self Esteem was instilled into you. Many girls dont grow up in balanced families, just like boys. sociopaths SENSE this, same as any other nefarious endeavor

As for nice boys, sure I dated some fine girls/women. BUT, on any given friday/sat night, the leches were seen to be having more responses, and if you were not solidly grounded, you would likely buy in. I didnt buy in, as I viewed Jesus as the model for ethical behavior.

In fact, I was hobbled by this belief. I feel that anything you do or say to a girl/woman, should be something you would not be ashamed to say in front of her mother and father.

[seabeyond]

11. hey... i get it. you are right

how you are raised, what you are given in youth matter. that is why you hear me so often talking about our conditioning of gender. it does matter. i get that. both genders.

[redqueen]

10. *sigh* I'm supposed to ask boys for insight?

Look, some women do like assholes. Most women don't.

Some of those assholes are hot.

But for some reason, when men like hot women who are jerks, nobody says "men like jerks"... they say men like hot women, and nobody bats an eye.

When men like women who act like jerks because their mothers acted like jerks, nobody says "men like jerks!" (Childhood issues are behind a lot of women's illusory 'preference' for men who act like jerks. Just like some of the men who go for women who act like jerks. Shocking!)

This bullshit is a self-serving lie that 'nice guys' tell themselves to comfort their egos. That particular brand of 'nice guy' seems to think that women are vending machines for sex - you put in some 'nice guy' quarters and you should get sex!

[seabeyond]

12. nobody says "men like jerks"... they say men like hot women

good point. right on.

[redqueen]

20. Simple logic destroys that ego-stroking nonsense...

but just like so much of the nonsense related to misogyny, gender, double standards, etc... it's so pervasive most people never question the most basic things about it. It's just accepted as reality, which makes sense (outside of feminist spaces!) because it's all people have ever experienced.

[WingDinger]

23. When things are pervasive, there are questions worth asking. To assume that

bad actors are always to blame, is naive.

[seabeyond]

26. harks back to ... always, must. spread. seed. EVERYTHING goes to that

everything must be tied to that. so tell me, when that is the be all, end all, why would anything less be expected.

[Deep13]

32. +1 nt

[WingDinger]

13. Whether the bullshit is reality or not, it is what boys growing up see.

You can ask girls all day long if they REALLY like bad guys. That is moot. It is what boys BELIEVE, that shapes how boys do.

I dont have to salve my ego. I have dated an ex playmate of the year, actresses etc. I dont cry in my pillow. I am just being honest about how boys grow up, and the messages they receive.

[redqueen]

16. Except you asserted that it WAS reality in your first response to this thread.

Maybe if more men and women would stop pretending it's a CREDIBLE idea (like you did, above, just now), young boys wouldn't grow up BELIEVING it.

[WingDinger]

17. Depending on where you spend your time growing up, it is.

How about instead, substituting ethical messages? In the absence of good messages, they will receive bad ones.

[boston bean]

42. I wonder how you would feel, if you didn't date an ex playmate of the year.

Why did you even mention it?

You aren't like those other guys, you are like the other ones, right?

[WingDinger]

48. Just like most of the time.

And trophy girls arent a hobby. Just a comeback to nice guys always say that cuz they cant get laid etc.

Same as when you discuss the poor, and people just say it is cuz you have no skills either.

[redqueen]

52. You opened that line of conversation by mentioning your inability to get as much "ACTION"

as your roommate did.

Now we get to hear about the playmate and the actresses, and how you're only saying it cause of something that you actually said yourself, but that you're now trying to blame on someone else.

This just keeps getting better.

[seabeyond]

45. one of the many conversations with son recently. society is so conditioning girls, like never before

that their only and most important worth, is their looks.

i was telling son. not only that, but the reason is because for a male, his manhood is about the LOOKS of the woman he is with. that is HIS value. his womans looks. not character. not accomplishments, but her looks are indicative of how much a man he is.

that is the sad of it.

dont fall into that.

it is wrong and unhealthy and wrong wrong wrong for the girl. and it is even more wrong for the man. for all his manliness to be about a womans looks, not his accomplishments or who he is. and forget what kind of woman he is willing to settle for, and what kind of relationship is to be had, when it is the womans looks that is the factor for both genders.

[MadrasT]

8. Was right with you

Last edited Sun Apr 22, 2012, 08:20 AM - Edit history (1)

Until that last sentence.

"Action" aside, in my (male dominated) industry, the most successful men are misogynistic bullies. They are socially and professionally rewarded for that behavior. To be part of the upper tier, you have to be part of their "team".

Back to the "action" part, it seems to me that sure, there certain types of women are attracted to those types of men. But "women love assholes" is a ridiculously broad brush.

I guess from a male perspective, it depends on what type of woman you want to attract.

I don't tolerate assholes well, so I was happy to remove myself from that game.

(I am more just thinking out loud than talking specifically to you, WingDinger. Not trying to attack you with my comments, because in general, yeah, I see that behavior rewarded in many ways. If it wasn't rewarded - mostly by other powerful misogynistic assholes, I don't think it would still be so pervasive.)

[redqueen]

14. I hope that 'attack you with my comments' wasn't a reference to my post.

If your characterization of your response as not being an attack was meant in some other way than to separate your post from any other one, then mea culpa. In that case I'm very curious about the reason behind the explanation that you weren't trying to attack with your comments.

For anyone offended at the tone of my response, I responded the way I did because this is supposed to be a protected group. This idiocy has been debunked over and over, even here on this very site, in multiple forums. I fail to see how such entry-level anti-feminist garbage is still being touted as if it has a shred of credibility.

[WingDinger]

18. When you characterize men being honest as idiocy, and bunk, do you elevate discussion?

Or encourage courage amongst men that agree with you?

What you are encouraging is, putting your head in the sand, to a degree. Sure the world should work the way you say. It doesnt, at least not yet. And it is not simply jerks that make that so. Pretending that those messages are not the ones boys receive does nothing to change it. Being honest, and calling for education, just like you are doing here, does.

[redqueen]

19. Sorry, but the "women like assholes" canard is not "men being honest"... it's a canard.

I characterized THAT SPECIFIC LIE as idiotic, and bunk.

NOT men.

The lie that "women like assholes" is not the same thing as "men being honest", and your attempt to conflate the two in order to continue this derailment is noticed and not appreciated.



Nice edit. As I said before, people should stop acting as if it has any validity. I encourage you to do so the next time some 'nice guy' tries to play that card elsewhere on this forum, other places on the net, and especially here at DU, as it does come up regularly and it gets old having just a few women calling bullshit.

[WingDinger]

21. Do you even get that I am on your side?

Taht I teach any boy I encounter and have the opportunity, that women are just humans? Potential friends, and not prey?

PS, I have spent a significant amount of time with my Bonobo troop, and like very much the DIFFERENT gender roles they have. They teach a great many things about how things COULD be different. I am all for it. BUT, there are reasons why we arent the same. I can wish they were different. But wishing aint doing. In the absence of instinct, and heredity making it so, we must erect societal strictures, to create like order.

[redqueen]

22. I get that you're trying to help.

Your first post in this thread was a piss poor example of helping.

"Yes, but..." is ALWAYS the wrong answer to misogyny. ALWAYS.

I'm so very sorry for not pointing these things out in a more accommodating manner. I promise to mind my tone from here on out.

[WingDinger]

24. You dont get my hackles up, or chase me away. I like you.

You might chase others away though.

[seabeyond]

29. .

sweet

[seabeyond]

30. back to the article. i wonder. as a man reading, that the "game", "play" these men and boys

exhibit, if it hit you how it effects women and girls. not only being a nuisance and rude and ugly, but real stuff. fear. spending hours going out of ones way cause they took a bus the wrong direction. the money she spent because of fear. the real infringement on a woman and girls life, that men do not experience.

that is what hit me. that is why i put the article up. that is why i think all men should read, because i dont think they really think this thru, or feel the very real damage and problem it causes.

so, instead of reasons why boys/men do this (and i get it), what did you pull out from the girl/womans experience.

i always separate woman/girl and boys/men because it matters.

[WingDinger]

31. Truthfully, I dont see how girls/women TRUST enough to date.

and for good reason. My sister was date raped. How the hell do you know a man from adam? We say and do what will get us ahead. Even nice guys. i dont envy youall. I felt some of what it is like to be a woman, when I came down with heart failure. For quite a while, I could not walk ten feet, without resting.

It hit me that I am vulnerable to any attack. I could not defend myself. It was a startling revelation. I DID NOT LIKE IT. It must do huge things to your psyche, to admit that outside of good awareness, you are vulnerable physically.

PS, the guy that date raped her was an acquaintance. I saw him at a party and said I needed to talk to him. He got the entire party riled, and I almost fought the whole party. they backed his raping ass. I said all I needed to do was to understand. That I did not intend to harm him. No matter, the whole party said if I didnt get out NOW, they would kill me.

[seabeyond]

35. i will say....

i grew up in a home full of macho man men. football players, muscles, tall, aggressive. i never learned how to be intimidated. i found myself not long ago sticking chest out and going at it. it has happened more than once. no fear.

most of boys/men game is for intimidating purposes. at the airport i had a tsa man get in my space/face. the sole purpose to intimidate. i wasnt. (early, not enough coffee, didnt get it). when i was walking away i thought i am suppose to be intimidated. bad bad me.

if it is not a part of you, i dont know how a person manifests it. anyway, most is all about intimidation.

so reality, doesnt work with me. but i think i am the unusual.

as far as the date rape thing, this is why i say it is not the sociopath. it is a conditioning of our boys. their right/privilege. get it any way you can. all is fair. drunk, intimidate, force (though they will say seduce), they are allowed, expected, part of their manhood.

this is why i go to the core of it. unless we address the basics, we are not going to be able to resolve the issue.

it is not a small group.... not in date/acquaintance rape. it is the boy next door.

[WingDinger]

36. Courageous honest women like you is how we advance.

[boston bean]

41. Some courageous and honest men would be very helpful, too.

I know, most women just aren't courageous enough, or aren't agreeable, or aren't taken seriously enough...

We need to accept how men (according to you) are, and find a bunch of different ways to work around that, right? Without being to disagreeable.

[seabeyond]

43. isnt that always the way..... i read a thead in GD

from a freeper, biblical. womens fault, men weak or men just men, women are responsible for them and suppose to fix them, yet allow these weak men to be the boss.

boggles the mind

and so confusing.

[WingDinger]

49. Far from it. We need to TEACH boys proper gender ettiquitte.

How you grew up, is usually what you will die protecting, no matter if it is internal combustion, or ? So, largely, we need to have neanderthals die out, and teach the yunguns early. As I said, any attempts to teach, are met with pantywaist, mammas boy, nanny statist etc criticisms. So, we need courageous men, to stand with women, and insist on teaching our children to treat women, minorities, disabled, mentally deficient, foreigners, elderly, resources, institutions with respect. As it is, that is called weak, and feminine, gay, lame whathaveyou.

[seabeyond]

44. lol. uh huh. gosh how there is a wave to shut us up.

but, yes. speaking out, listening, learning is what needs to be done.

[Jim Lane]

54. You say, "'Yes, but...' is ALWAYS the wrong answer to misogyny." My answer is "Yes, but...."

The men described in the OP are self-confident and unafraid of going for what they want (which is good). They carry that too far, to the point of being self-absorbed, arrogant, and disdainful of the feelings and even of the rights of the woman involved (which, obviously, is bad).

My perspective is that of a heterosexual man who, in the 1970s, misinterpreted feminism and drew the wrong conclusions. I would never have dreamed of acting like the men in the OP. That kind of behavior was, and is, just inconceivable to me. My mistake was that I went too far in the opposite direction. I wouldn't have articulated it this way at the time, but in hindsight, I see that I felt that any action showing sexual interest in a woman was, at best, highly suspect. I agree with WingDinger when he writes:

In fact, I was hobbled by this belief. I feel that anything you do or say to a girl/woman, should be something you would not be ashamed to say in front of her mother and father.

The challenge for men is to be appropriately aggressive without being obnoxious, insulting, threatening, etc. Thanks to the women's movement, there are now many more men (maybe even, if we're lucky, most men) who at least recognize that what the men in the OP did was wrong.

So my "Yes" is to your condemnation of misogyny. My "but" is a recognition that we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater -- we throw out the misogyny but keep the self-confidence and the willingness to take risks.

[seabeyond]

55. i like this

"My "but" is a recognition that we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater -- we throw out the misogyny but keep the self-confidence and the willingness to take risks."

the reality is, if you respect a person..... without thought of gender, merely respect a person, that comes across. and it will be felt and heard. simple respect. it isnt asking too much, and isnt too hard. the majority of men i am around (because it is all i allow) simple respect women. it really is no tougher than that.

[redqueen]

59. The "Yes, but..." I was referring to was not all inclusive.

When someone says "it's bad for men to catcall women" and then someone (usually a man) shows up saying something like "Yes, but some women like it" that is just completely wrong. There are no two ways about it.

It's a shame that anyone would fly to the opposite end of the spectrum and think that whatever ridiculousness made sense somehow, but that's neither here nor there. The opposite of rude communication isn't the absence of any communication. That seems fairly obvious to me, anyway. Nevertheless the anecdotal experiences of men who aren't described by this OP aren't material to this conversation. Nobody ever asserted all men are like the ones in the OP. I doubt anyone needs to be convinced that not all men are pigs.

The 'throw out the misogyny but keep the self confidence and ...' is a strawman. No one ever said "men must not be confident or willing to take risks!"

The men in the OP are not 'self confident and willing to take risks' they are acting like thoughtless, privileged assholes... and I take offense to the conflation of self confidence with privileged, asshole behavior.

[MadrasT]

51. Hi redqueen

Last edited Sat Apr 21, 2012, 11:13 PM - Edit history (1)

That was more about a commitment I have made to myself about my way of being.

After decades of confrontational relationships and allowing myself to be bullied by loud, verbally abusive men, I have said "no more". I will no longer engage with, or give the time of day to, people (especially men) who are verbally confrontational and hostile.

The flip side of that commitment to free myself from being the complicit recpient of verbal abuse, is that I am learning to practice nonviolent communication and use nonconfrontational language myself.

I don't feel like I can stand around saying "I won't tolerate verbal abuse" if I dish it out at the same time.

So I try to be extra clear - especially on the internet - that I am interested in conversation, in hearing and being heard - rather than argument.

I am not afraid of confrontation when it is required, but I am trying to be nonconfrontational when it isn't required.

[redqueen]

53. Thanks.

You didn't have to explain and I appreciate it.

[seabeyond]

56. why?

out of curiosity to learn, why? why do you feel that you allowed that in you life. cause honestly, i have been with lots of men, and not one. so what was it that allowed you to see that you had to allow that in your life. OR, was it the type of man attracted to and that came along with the package. cause i dont get it and am curious, and i ask why? and i was at a wedding an had lots of wine, lol.

[MadrasT]

64. Short answer

That was the kind of house I grew up in so it seemed "normal" to me.

[seabeyond]

65. Thanks

And I asked because this seems to be the reason and wanted to know if that was the case or something else entirely. Though, it was none of my business, that is for sure. But, then, I also remember a post just last night telling us to ASK. I'm nosey

[MadrasT]

66. No problem

I also love my parents and know they did the best they knew how to do at the time.

[seabeyond]

68. good for you. that is so very healthy

my parents were 18, 19 when they married and preceded to have three kids apart, once a year in oct. i was 33 when i had my first. my mom said watching me as a parent, she really wished she had done some things differently. hm....

they were young, i was old. they were po, i am financially secure (less stress), they had three babies one year apart, i had two two and half year apart. that was the 60's, ....

they did the very best for who they were, and though not perfect by far (like anyone is) i think they did a hell of a job.

[BlueIris]

25. This is the kind of disruptive shit that shouldn't be allowed here.

At all.

[WingDinger]

27. Figuring all this out in a vacuum, hasnt worked, has it?

Both genders must not only be heard, but cooperate to affect change. You are encouraging insularity. that never made anything better.

[BlueIris]

33. This group is supposed to be a supportive environment

for feminists and people to discuss the history of feminism. Meaningful discussion becomes impossible because of the kind of crap you are spewing. It is also not consistent with our statement of purpose and should not be permitted.

[WingDinger]

34. If by supportive, you mean accepting bogus depictions of the way things are, that is NOT supportive,

nor honest.

But, your point is well taken, given the title of group. To be honest though, the OP is not about the history of feminism.

[boston bean]

37. Hi wingdinger,

You sort of backed off what you originally stated. We are all here to learn. But this group is a safe haven to discuss feminism, the history of feminism, and the patriarchy. A feminist perspective will prevail.

Also, You will not define what is on topic or off topic for this group. We will decide that. And I'm doubting you actually read the SOP.

If you read the SOP, you will read this:

This group will also serve as safe haven for women (and supporters of feminism) to openly and honestly discuss and learn how the patriarchy affects women individually and collectively.

Which is exactly what this thread is doing and accomplishing.

[WingDinger]

39. I was originally caught by the latest thingie. Sorry.

Got me again.

[boston bean]

40. I never "got" you before.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Or I just don't remember it. Or I don't get your comment.

[WingDinger]

46. Perusing latest, gets me into a protected group. Not YOU.

[boston bean]

47. Oh, I get it.

Thanks for the explanation.

[JTFrog]

67. Agreed. n/t

[felix_numinous]

38. Rant on

after a lifetime of living under the double standard, I know how to assert my own space. I learned around the age of 5 what kind of world this was, and it was up to me to fend for myself.

Sensing the undertone when in certain situations, you develop a 6th sense for when it is time to escape. I learned not to dress certain ways, to always have a way out. I have a couple memories I wish I could completely delete, when my guard was down, but I survived.

In the workplace starting the late 70s, I was often in situations where I did not want to be alone with bosses, supervisors or certain coworkers. I lost count of how many times I had to adeptly maneuver so that I did not lose my job. A couple of times I did lose my job, because I didn't say yes. I am glad to say I did take the opportunity to report people (I kept my own file of reports at home), and a couple of times caused them to suffer consequences in their careers.

This world is infinitely more harsh and cruel than when I was younger, this world requires that women--along with GLBT and all minority races, and the wonderful men who support us--stand in solidarity together against abuse and brutality. I really think things are going to get a lot worse for all of us before it ever gets better, and we need each other.

Speaking out is one way to support each other thanks.

[seabeyond]

58. excellent post. i expected someone to have replied

cause i dont want to take over my thread, lol. but i appreciate your post.

"This world is infinitely more harsh and cruel than when I was younger, this world requires that women--along with GLBT and all minority races, and the wonderful men who support us--stand in solidarity together against abuse and brutality. I really think things are going to get a lot worse for all of us before it ever gets better, and we need each other. "

i think you are right. i cannot believe the number of steps backwards we have taken. but, it is not only with womens issues. it is in so many ways.

[MuseRider]

50. Wow.

Going back to read more.

I have read the thread here. Interesting discussion. Maybe some learning? Hopefully all was meant in good will just not knowing how to say what needed said. We will see.

Stand up my friends! Be who you want to be and figure out how to get there. It will never happen if you let them pat you on the head or dismiss you as "cute". Declare yourselves! (My god it is not any different now than it was in the late 60's early 70's. How did we get back here to this point?) It is not fun, it is never pleasant but eventually you will win. **I seriously doubt any of you who frequent this group needs that but you never know who will peek in.

WingDinger, a word of advice from someone who got involved in something she knew absolutely nothing about but has managed to become a respected part of something large. If you are not one of the group, not a woman for you and not LGBT for me, approach all topics as questions. You can get into all kinds of trouble otherwise even if you mean well. If you do mean well and want to learn this is the place. You will learn slowly at first but as you learn you can become part of the movement but until you have really spent the time, a lot of time, you cannot speak for us or about us. We are not man haters like some believe we are, but haters (not sure that is what I would really want to say but continuing along the line of man haters) of the patriarchy that keeps down anyone but those guys you were talking about. Mainly women in this group but it is pervasive with anyone who is not a "big shot" and it is getting worse rapidly. Read a lot and ask questions, we need everyone who is willing to do those things to stand with us.

seabeyond, I always have liked you. You and I would cause so much trouble. I was raised in a very archaic family. I was raised to be a wife and mother and to be demure and NEVER question a man. Not allowed to drive, not allowed to go out with my girlfriends. That lasted until I was about 17 when I could not take it any longer. Standing up to my father was the scariest thing I ever did and it was followed by the scariest episode of my life. When he was done I vowed to never ever let another person treat me like I was less than they were. I know my place and it is alongside anyone else, not behind. I love that you speak up. Sucks a lot sometimes doesn't it? Still, in the long run you can live with what you have done or said and know that someone heard you. They will not forget what you said and may eventually understand where it came from and it's purpose. Good for you.

Back to finish up reading the link.

My edit does not appear to have posted so here it is, I LOVE the 3 segments after the post. LOVE them. I also love your video.

[seabeyond]

57. funniest story... i asked hubby tonight if he wanted to drive

we went to a wedding and took my car. my car, i drive. i dont know anyone at the wedding, they are hubbys friends (clients). being in the panhandle of texas, we get out of church to drive to reception and i ask him, want to drive. nah, he says, dont need to. i didnt want him to be embarrassed on the whole male thing.

i am very competitive and had to beat everyone, really, i wasnt trying, just is. and looking at review i say, hey hubby, i am not the only woman driving the hubby. and you thought you were all that in progressive.

sittin at the table, talking to a young couple, i ask if she has a lincoln, too. oh, she does. but wait, that is your car? you hubby was driving. lol lol. she says, ya, we were having the same conversation of all the wives driving their hubby, but my hubby.... cant do it. lol.

betcha in ten years, he will grow up. but he was cute.

we were raised as people in our family, not gender. i was spoiled rotten by a father that wanted me to be exceptional, higher expectations than brothers. i am no more than the perfect of who i am, but it is enough for all of us. my mom didnt take shit from anyone. we didnt have that in our family.

the better person you are being brave enough to stand up to your father. i tell my boys, can you believe, can you believe in our time, we were raised and conditioned in society to actually believe we were not as smart, capable, competent as men. can you believe???? it boggles the mind.

[MuseRider]

60. In my house it did not matter that I got straight A's

or that I was always the best in my section in music. None of that mattered because I was female. I had to learn to be a good wife, that meant that weekends were spent washing and ironing my father and brothers clothing. Remember the days when you washed, hung out the clothes on the line, brought them in and sprinkled them with some water then rolled them up and put the in the fridge? You are probably much too young to remember that. They were there when you had time to iron them. I also cooked and cleaned. Those were my weekends. Is it any wonder that since my kids grew up and left I do not cook meals, I do not do my husbands laundry (I haven't since he complained many years ago a bunch of times so I let him do it the way he wants it I work my farm, like a MAN of all things and it is MY farm. I bought it, I got everything built and done here and then I did the house. I did it. Yup, a waste of a good woman here, lol. I am very happy and what happened happened before and made me a better person. I just do not want to see other little girls ever have to go through that kind of crap and dismissive attitude that annihilates the ego and makes the future lessons harder learned.

It never mattered that I was smart, something I did not discover until I was much older. It wasn't that they did not know it, they had to have known it, it was that it did not matter.

Sorry for getting away from the topic. I am feeling testy right now about all of this. Kansas would have us chained to the bed if they could get away with it but first they are doing away with the gays this week. Much work to do and 2 rallys, one for the LGBT and one for women this week. Makes one wonder if there is anything left to work with.

[seabeyond]

61. just wow to your post. just wow. go kick some ass, woman

you are so very good at it.

really, i cannot fathom. another woman posted not long ago, telling her story, and she said it was the same for her. i did not experience that.

and YES, i remember the sprinkling wet and putting it in fridge. i was very little. mom got a dryer and said, fuck that ironing shit, lol.

funny with hubbys laundry

and wow, all you did getting your farm adn what you accomplished.

what a woman.

[MuseRider]

62. It was an interesting thing to do, getting the farm.

Nobody wanted to let me do it. I will tell the story someday, probably did on DU2. It is funny the lengths some men will go to assure there is a husband behind you, you know, the penis part that is needed for interaction and bill paying. I had a woman realtor who led me to deal with a woman attorney when we finally got to the title part. It was an exercise in frustration otherwise but also kinda fun if you enjoy watching old country guys blush!

Nothing prepares a person for standing up for what is right for their rights better than being treated like someone else's future chattel. Really, they had no idea what they were creating.

It has all ended well.

[seabeyond]

69. it is amazing. we were talking a little about that last night, just in buying a car

Last edited Sun Apr 22, 2012, 10:37 AM - Edit history (1)

and the difference being a man and woman.

[Scuba]

63. I think you rant about the patriarchy and misogyny just the right amount...

... OK, a bit more would be better, since men who beat on and patronize women are scum.