RESIST. INSIST. STAND TOGETHER. BUILD. NEVER SURRENDER.

[Fire Walk With Me]

via @occupytheory -

"RESIST. INSIST. STAND TOGETHER. BUILD. NEVER SURRENDER.

On September 17th, 2011 Occupy Wall Street was born. A hundred people occupied Zuccotti Park in lower Manhattan and opened a space for imagination. We began to share food, clothing, and shelter. We sought refuge in the shell of a concrete jungle and found community. Inspired by our actions, occupations began throughout
the globe. In a matter of months nearly all of them were crushed by the weight of repression and co-optation, but occupy cannot be stopped. It is a collective unleashing of anger and frustration at a dying capitalist system and points toward a new world. Let us create this world together.

"Read. Share. Distribute. Tidal." - Tidal Occupy Theory, occupytheory.org

Tidal 3 is out on the streets and online! Read the latest edition at

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8k8g5Bb3BxdS2EyTDcwR0NRV0k/edit?pli=1

Pass it on.



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=397312870336483&set=a.187967227937716.47329.184749301592842&type=1&theater

[a geek named Bob]

1. Really? Spivak?

I thought a lot of you guys...

But Spivak???

[tama]

2. You guys?

Why do you feel not included in the 99% and take the identity of outsider?

[a geek named Bob]

3. okay... here we go...

1.) I consider myself one of the "everybody who's not hyper-rich" crowd.
2.) I dropped out of Occupy, when they started in with resentment games.
3.) I first ran into Spivak in a crit theory course. When people start bringing up up Spivak and Lenin, I get in the wind.

[tama]

4. New name for me

so I looked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayatri_Chakravorty_Spivak

What is interesting about postcolonialism in relation to occupy is that the tide has turned and progressives in West are now learning democracy from indigenous peoples instead of trying to "educate" and "civilize" them.

[a geek named Bob]

5. One of Spivak's favorite phrases

is "the destabilization of western ways of thinking...""

Let's unpack that, shall we?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/destabilize
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destabilize

From these definitions, people like Spivak seem to WANT to cause unrest, and quite possibly to stop our society from functioning.

"western ways of thinking..."

what parts shall they attempt to destabilize? presumption of innocence? Social mobility? (remember, Spivak has also written about the glories of the Indian Caste system.) How about the Scientific Method? (Some of the POMO-POCO crowd try and state that all facts are malleable....idiots to the last.)

I'M a progressive. Spivak has nothing worthwhile to teach...other than giving me a set of code words to look out for. If someone starts frequently using these in conversation, I figure it's time to leave.

[tama]

6. Yes we do

We want to stop paleo- and neocolonialism by what ever name and we want freedom from the social structures that cause it. That is a tough question for liberal middle classes who wish well but can't handle the fact that their consumerist way of life is materially dependent from neocolonialist structures of oppression and exploitation and escalating destruction of Earth's ecosystem. So it is not surprising that eurocentric liberal middle classes - globally one percenters - have to large extent left the global movement after a short visit, and are looking for finishing their race to the bottom before they rejoin.

In more philosophical terms, the "destabilization of western ways of thinking" refers to European alienated metaphysics of subjecthood or "ego". But as ego is a defense mechanism of collective insanity, it's rather useless to try to talk to it sense and expect that it would stop behaving like what it is.

[a geek named Bob]

7. right...

We want to stop paleo- and neocolonialism by what ever name and we want freedom from the social structures that cause it.

1.) The great thing about Occupy, at least at one time, is that it wasn't a monolithic game of guilt trips and resentment statements. The minute someone comes up with "You know you owe my people X, because your ancestors oppressed us by doing Y..." I know the person has literally nothing to say to ME, they just want a convenient punching bag.

That is a tough question for liberal middle classes who wish well but can't handle the fact that their consumerist way of life is materially dependent from neocolonialist structures of oppression and exploitation and escalating destruction of Earth's ecosystem.

2.) Let's unpack that one, shall we? Facts are not in evidence for your blanket assumption! You're making a blanket assumption to cover ALL of the middle class. (As the middle class was the hated group for the POMO-POCO crowd {mostly using socialist terms}, I'm not surprised certain groups are blaming them.
2a.) Fair trade ring a bell?
2b.) Local food movement ring a bell?
2c.) If you are going to cast aspersions, How about that computer you are using?
2d.) I've already mentioned on other threads a few ways to reverse global warming.

So it is not surprising that eurocentric liberal middle classes - globally one percenters - have to large extent left the global movement after a short visit, and are looking for finishing their race to the bottom before they rejoin.

3.) Why should liberal middle class people stay? If other people are going to constantly get nasty, setting up folks as straw men and convenient scapegoats... Why stay?

In more philosophical terms, the "destabilization of western ways of thinking" refers to European alienated metaphysics of subjecthood or "ego". But as ego is a defense mechanism of collective insanity, it's rather useless to try to talk to it sense and expect that it would stop behaving like what it is.

Are you speaking from psychological training? Also, I've noticed that if someone argues against a "collective action" point, on the grounds of personal taste, others will bring in the pop-term, Ego.

Look..a while back, I noticed a number of the POMO-POCO crowd use roughly the same argument structures, throughout the spectrum of their statements. They use a variation on Monroe's Motivated Sequence:
-1 Get their attention
-2 Bring up a problem...make it sound movie scary
-3 Show a forced choice solution
-4 Make the listener visualize horrible alternatives, if the speaker's choice isn't used
-5 make a ringing call to action
--If someone calls the speaker on point 2, find way to either attack the question, or use terms that attempt to show that questioner somehow agreed with the speaker....then repeat point 2
--If someone shows a better alternative to point 3, use emotionally laden statements showing questioner's alternate solution won't work.

[tama]

8. Guilt trips are your problem not mine

1) I find the whole exercise futile. If a plain statement of fact, e.g. that Western (or any other) consumerism is dependent from neocolonialist exploitation of so called 3rd and 4rh worlds associates with guilt trip and produces emotional discomfort, that is not a reason to stop speaking truth (and feeling empathy with the emotional discomfort). We know the crimes past and present and believe in the power of forgiving, not least for our own health, the issue is to stop the crimes from continuing so that we can go on living - on this planet.

2) - Fair trade as a whole is positive step, but not without problems. Nigeria producing "fair trade" flowers to European market (to get cash to pay interests on the neocolonialist debts) instead of food for local people is just one example of the problems.
- Been very closely involved in the local food movement so yes, it rings a bell.
- What about my computer? I'm not anti-technology, just anti-technocracy and hopefully you and others soon find way to make internet hardware production and upkeep sustainable material cycle. And by sustainable I don't mean bunch of poor Chinese people in extreme poverty recycling the waste from West with the risk for their health and life.
- I've mentioned also Terra Preta, but the main point is not to try to fix the problem by creating new problems but to stop causing it.

3) Liberal middle class is welcome to join but not to take over. What they choose to do is of course for them to decide.

4) Speaking in the frame of reference you brought up, European philosophy (phenomenology of Heidegger, Derrida etc. etc.) self-criticizing European metaphysics. I've read and discussed them and lost deeper interest and moved on when I found out that the core of their criticism and search has been expressed much more clearly e.g. in Buddhist philosophy.

[a geek named Bob]

9. Tama...

1.) The problem is... I don't accept the idea that I am somehow guilty of crimes, and therefore needing someone to "forgive" me. I guess I'm weird, but when someone falsely accuses me of crimes, to get me to do something...I walk away, and never help that person. (Matter of fact, I warn everyone I know about the accuser. Guilt games are loan sharking.)

2.) I can't speak for the country you are in - indeed, I don't know where you are - but in the USA, the burden of proof is on the accuser of a crime.

3.) If you want a sustainable internet, you need to start with a chip masker, a closed cycle smelter, and a good chip designer.

4.) Who said anything about taking over? The complaints I've heard were that the "liberal middle class" wasn't given an equal voice. When people play the "I'm more oppressed than you are, therefore I should have more voice than you do..." it's a sign that people DON'T want equality or free speech. People playing the "you need to help us in our goal, to get forgiven for your past crimes" are basically admitting they need help, don't believe they have anything to trade, and feel resentful.

[tama]

10. Don't remember?

Told you in the spaced out thread I'm in Finland. In our language causal chains and guilt are expressed with same word, so I can understand the difficulty of separating the concepts. The difference is important though, causal chains link to conscious comprehension and guilt to emotional burden that is often obstacle of comprehension. May I remind you that it was you that brought up guilt and accusations and insists on talking about it. So in one way or another it seems to be issue you feel is important for you. It's OK but not what I have much interest for. In the last paragraph you touch a related issue which I also see a lot, the phenomenon of nurturing our wounds - individual and/or collective - instead of letting them heal.

[a geek named Bob]

11. My apologies for forgetting about Finland.

I'll blame the long study times...

I brought up the guilt games, as that is what I started seeing in Occupy. Sad, really.
As to the idea of nurturing/healing... I guess it's another matter of perspective.

I brought up nurturing our wounds?

[tama]

12. This sounded like nurturing wounds:

"I'm more oppressed than you are, therefore I should have more voice than you do..."

People have multiple identities, and identity of victim is not the most productive. That is why I said it is better to forgive than to get stuck in in victim identity and nurture the wound.

[a geek named Bob]

13. unfortunately...

THAT's the game I saw at Occupy.
That's why I left.

[tama]

14. It's a sad game

and all too common everywhere (also on DU), so I don't doubt it manifests also in Occupy meetings. But it's certainly not all that people talk about in Occupy assemblies.

But back to the issue, it was IIRC Zerzan that told an anecdote of Kissinger having a talk with well-meaning liberals and telling them that they can whine about US imperialism all they want, but if they want to continue their consumerist American way of life, they need "bad imperialist" guys like Kissinger to kick 3rd world ass and deliver the desired colonial goods. Zerzan drew his conclusions and started to think and speak about what was then coined as anarcho-primitivism.

[a geek named Bob]

15. Tama...

I know that the blame game isn't ALL Occupy talks about. It's a red flag for a set of symptoms. I noticed they seemed to have their own developing version of ideological purity waves forming. I'll pass.

I'll also pass on anarcho-primitivism. If someone wants to live that way, so bit it. I'll be in the cities, keeping the lights on.

[Fire Walk With Me]

16. I don't know Spivak (yet).

I DO know with $1 trillion+ in student loan debt that it's obviously about banks, not about education or the students at all, and that capitalism is doing this exact same thing all over the map and in the process, driving us into ruin. We need a better way of living now. Not want, but need. I am willing to learn about alternate theory considering the depth of the problem. If the theory stinks, throw it out. The words above in the OP, however, are true.

[a geek named Bob]

17. Spivak's a glib huckster

1.) We can easily fix capitalism. All we need to do is put the regulations back in place.
2.) The problem with the most commonly used "alternative theory" is that it hasn't worked. Ever. I'll clarify that... Most of the time, the "alternative theory" turns out to be some flavor of socialism. I favor the "junk the theory, if the facts argue" school. The facts all point to socialism not being worth the powder to blow it up. (Lack of social mobility, lack of actual innovation, lack of staples, wide spread oppression, restrictions on movement, etc).
3.) The other most used alternate theory is usually some form of tribalism. Tribes are great! (provided you've got the room/food/water, don't mind dying in your 50's {or earlier}, are at the mercy of the weather, and don't want to make complicated things.)
4.) My wife and I have been in academia for the last 23 years. From the information we've gathered over the last 5 years, We're figuring that more and more people are going to shift over to online degrees (quicker, free or cheap, and a hell of a lot more convenient.)

[U4ikLefty]

18. Hey Fire, I suggest we become managers of this forum

Many come here to shit on Occupy (see above).

We can keep the "concerned" from killing the productive flow on this forum.

What do you think? PM me.

[Fire Walk With Me]

19. I don't have the time or energy to do so but if anyone would, it would be appreciated.