2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe people who are mad at Bernie not being a Dem in the past are mad because he didn't give up.
Because he didn't sell out the people. Because he didn't water down his principles to nothing.
All of which he would have had no choice but to do if he'd been officially in the party in the Eighties and Nineties.
Why was it so important to these people that Bernie stop standing for anything, stop fighting corporate power, stop challenging control of politics by the rich?
Nothing Bernie ever did, at any point in his career, hurt this party. Nothing he did ever gave aid and comfort to our enemies. Nothing he did ever harmed any of the people our party pretends to defend, but doesn't usually care about(the poor, poc, labor, LGBTQ people or women).
Why demonize someone just for staying true to himself and those who elected him?
He did what he did in the past because there was no other course he could take that would not have meant abandoning most of what he and his supporters stood for.
What matters now is that he is helping this party regain its soul. No other possible candidate would even have tried to do that this year.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
grasswire
(50,130 posts)While the party leadership has lurched to the right.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)him. A better reason to not vote for him is that he's not qualified and won't get anything done.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)Do tell.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)get things done.
sonofspy777
(360 posts)He shows them up for what they should have been doing all these years.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)I have to laugh at all the moralizing Sanders supporters who think they can tell others what they should be ashamed for.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)of going along with everything Dubbikins wanted, no questions asked-the strategy that guaranteed that we'd have no chance of defeating Bush-Cheney in '04.
What's NOT to be ashamed of?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)But hey ... you should keep telling Hillary supporters what their motives are, and what they should be ashamed of.
They'll be rushing to Bernie's camp once they here your judgement.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Are you saying you think Harry Reid was right to cave in to Bush and Cheney on every issue that mattered? That we should defend Democratic leaders just because they are in leadership positions? Why? It never leads to victory when you do that.
litlbilly
(2,227 posts)
KingFlorez
(12,689 posts)That was his choice that he was fully entitled to. The fact of the matter is that he should have stuck to it and ran for President as an independent. Why is he running as a Democrat when he has pretty much stated that he has nothing in common with the party? Probably because he doesn't want to play a potential spoiler in a general election, which isn't exactly an image booster.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)KingFlorez
(12,689 posts)Anyone who amasses the amount of hero worship that he has is worried about their image. Politics is always about ego.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)
KingFlorez
(12,689 posts)Same to you and your boy Bernie.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Bernie is a man. Hillary is a woman.
Should we be calling her a girl?
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)There's nothing wrong with admiring some who actually deserves admiration.
Bernie stands for things. Your candidate has no strong core values at all(that's what being centrist means...not standing for anything and not having any core values).
litlbilly
(2,227 posts)means nothing and is just the vehicle. Hillary is like a lamp with a dim light that's hard to see, so, just pay attention to the lamp.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)more than HRC. If he had done what you would have preferred and stayed out, HRC would be running on Bill's '96 platform(from which she has never significantly diverged throughout her time in the Senate and at State) and we'd be doomed to lose in the fall.
Rank-and-file Dems were begging for a progressive candidate, and there wasn't anyone else inside the party who would have been willing to be that candidate this year.
You should be glad that Bernie is here to turn millions of nonvoters into voters...because we can't win if only current voters vote.
Hekate
(90,779 posts)What I've learned from reading DU is that Bernie is an unchanging rock of principle and has never changed his mind about anything, and that is what makes him special.
How can Hillary be both a weathervane and someone who has not evolved in 20 years?
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)Doesn't mean we who like TRADITIONAL Democratic Party members like FDR who would speak strongly AGAINST economic royalists like the Koch brothers rather than align with them, and therefore SELL OUT TO THEM!!!!
senz
(11,945 posts)primarily because he did not want to play the spoiler. He did not want to play the spoiler because he did not want to help the Republicans win. He did not want to help the Republicans win because he cares what happens to the American people and to the earth.
That can't be too difficult to understand.
Since Independents are quite rare in the halls of congress and since Bernie is not a rightwinger, he has worked and caucused with the Democrats his entire career -- although occasionally he has reached across the aisle to get a bill passed, as he did with John McCain to get the Veterans Health Bill passed.
He is not particularly interested in "image." Not everyone is.
Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)....but the Democratic party has gladly taken my money and votes.
I've voted Democratic because it was the closest thing to my political stance.
Hekate
(90,779 posts)Bjornsdotter
(6,123 posts)Donations over the years.....Ted Kennedy, Carole Mosley Braun, Paul Simon, Dick Durbin, Tammy Duckworth, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, and Russ Feingold.
Hekate
(90,779 posts)
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Sometimes I think half the population has no idea anymore what a real liberal - on social policy *and* economic policy *and* foreign policy - looks like anymore. Hillary may call herself a "progressive", but aside from a few socially liberal ideas, her policies seem very Republican to me.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)
You clearly don't know his legislative record. Dear lord.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Bernie still despises the Democratic Party and is doing everything he can to dismantle it, while trying to gather the Democratic voters to vote for him.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 10, 2016, 03:32 AM - Edit history (1)
Moving to the pro-corporate anti-labor(and thus anti-worker)center has only harmed us.
Bernie and those who back him are fighting for what Bruce Springsteen once called "the country in our hearts".
Fighting for that is the only way to give this party any continued reason to exist.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)of the Democratic party as Republican lite?
arcane1
(38,613 posts)The weekend night shift comes up with some crazy shit 
DUbeornot2be
(367 posts)...Bernie has it right.
Americans first!
Partisanship... Only if it helps serve more disadvataged citizens... not fewer wealthy ones...
Response to Sheepshank (Reply #16)
Post removed
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)not my progressive liberal socialist democratic party.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Seems to be the case. But unlike others, I understand anger. Yours is misplaced, of course, but I get it. And I understand how anger can cloud judgment and cause people to make ridiculous accusations. You'll feel better soon. Or you won't. But that globe just keeps on turning, doesn't it?
zentrum
(9,865 posts)…..this party regain its soul". So right on!
His presence in this election is doing so much already for the entire country.
Cassiopeia
(2,603 posts)The Progressive that has fought for us his entire political career.
I have zero interest in the candidate that has fought for nothing other than personal wealth and power.
Tess49
(1,580 posts)of the 75,000 daily Bernie threads posted here on the Bernie Underground for weeks now. Mostly, I ignore them. I am not mad at Bernie as you suggest. He's just not my guy.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)n/t.
Hekate
(90,779 posts)He's also using our infrastructure, which he and his "independent" and pure followers never paid into.
Will he still love us tomorrow? Will he phone the morning after? Or was this just a booty call? >sigh<
senz
(11,945 posts)(besides Jane) and that is the American people. He's been faithful to this love his entire life. I guess we Dems will just have to play second fiddle...although if we're also Americans, we get to be the love of his life, as well.
Now if we can just keep from being too jealous of ourselves, it could work out.
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)One of the two would continue to fight for average American interests in their decisions as President.
And, one of the two would most definitely not.
Hekate
(90,779 posts)Her record is right out there despite every lie smear and distortion of the Right Wing, which has always hated her for everything she stands for. Her 11 hours of testimony at the Benghazi Committee that left her looking fresh and Gowdy looking wrung out -- just another day for the woman with a spine of steel.
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)You can tell that A LOT of us are sick and tired of that. And, we are fighting back against that.
Too bad you're not fighting with us.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)1. Sanders has served as an elected official for over 34 years. Clinton & most Republicans have not.
2. Sanders has supported gay rights since 40 years ago. Clinton and Republicans have not.
3. Sanders wants to end the prohibition of marijuana. Clinton & The Republicans do not.
4. Sanders wants to end the death penalty. Clinton and Th Republicans do not.
5. Sanders wants to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Clinton and the Republicans do not.
6. Sanders wants to break up the biggest banks. Clinton and The Republicans do not.
7. Sanders voted against the Wall Street bailout. Clinton and the Republicans (and too many "Democrats) did not.
8. Sanders introduced legislation to overturn Citizens United. Clinton and The Republicans did not.
9. Sanders refuses to accept money from super PACs. Clinton and the Republicans do not.
10. Sanders supports a single-payer healthcare system. Clinton and The Republicans do not.
11. Sanders refrains from waging personal attacks for political gains. Clinton and The Republicans do not.
12. Sanders considers climate change our nation's biggest threat. Clinton and The Republicans do not.
13. Sanders opposed the Keystone XL Pipeline since day one. Clinton and the Republicans do not.
14. Sanders voted against the Patriot Act. Clinton and the Republicans did not.
15. Sanders voted against the war in Iraq. Clinton and The Republicans did not.
Hillary sure seems to agree with Republicans a lot.
I don't,
that is why I am a Democrat, and voting for a Democrat....Bernie!
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... and now even Republicans are split on that when the Rubio corporatist bunch is fighting with Trump and Cruz on this issues.
Why does she want Americans to stop being hired to allow companies to replace them with low cost indentured servants from other countries that deepens the wealth divide?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Once HRC helped found the DLC, she forever abandoned everything she supposedly believed in in the Sixties. You can't support punishing poor women just for staying on welfare when getting off of welfare would have meant their kids would never have healthcare again and still call yourself an activist. You can't fight for things like NAFTA, knowing that things like that are created solely to break unions and screw the workers, and still call yourself an activist. You can't support massive betrayals of middle America like Glass-Steagall repeal and still call yourself an activist. You can't defend massive defeats for LGBTQ rights like DADT and DOMA and still call yourself an activist.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)Bernie was NEVER a Republican!!!!
So you rather us vote for someone that was once a Republican and still shares many of the corporatist values of Republicans today rather than one that has never been a Republican and shares more values against economic royalists that FDR had than she does.
Hekate
(90,779 posts)This particular argument has been thrashed to shreds and it is still utter bullshit.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)she landed a job as a corporate lawyer and defended Arkansas utility companies against ACORN and residential ratepayers.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... which is why a record was set in terms of passage of the amendment that gave ADULTS between the ages of 18-21 the right to vote later. Now, Hillary may not have been able to vote then because she wasn't 21 yet, but she was an ADULT attending COLLEGE and not in high school when she was a Republican. Yes, this argument is something that continues to be ignored, by those that keep falsely arguing her Democratic Party "purity" as a reason to vote for her and not Bernie, who is the only "purist" between the two of them that wasn't ever a Republican. It's like telling the freshman in college now that their vote doesn't count much like Hillary's didn't count at the same age she was because they aren't 21.
We wouldn't have to make this argument if there wasn't so much BULLSHIT going on about Bernie not being a registered Democrat as the ultimate reason not to vote for him, when his principles are so much more aligned with real Democratic Party philosophy espoused by leaders such as FDR before it was infected by corporatist "economic royalist" bullshit the way it is today, that would have been pushed aside in FDR's days.
rusty quoin
(6,133 posts)Kentonio
(4,377 posts)rusty quoin
(6,133 posts)on Bernie. The party had a whole lot of racist in the south.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Bernie has no racism himself.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... at the University of Chicago about the same time Hillary was a freshman in college campaigning for Barry Goldwater, who was working against passage of the Civil Rights Act then. She's been pretty good since that time for the most part, so we probably shouldn't hold that against her as being racist then compared to how Bernie started his long journey of fighting for civil rights for just about everyone since that time.
And since Strom Thurmond left the party about that time amongst other members, the Democrats were probably more of a worthwhile party to return to with less George Wallaces to worry about.
rusty quoin
(6,133 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)The relentless unjustified and knowingly bogus attacks on Bernie over that issue naturally have a lot of people on edge.
rusty quoin
(6,133 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Thanks for letting me know.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)By trying to delineate whether some just look at a Democratic Party label as being the ultimate test of whether they should vote for someone and had utilized Strom Thurmond as an example to point the flaw in that means of measuring a candidate. I abhorred that racism too.
I'm guessing that much like corporatism is the flaw in this party that so many want out of it but which heavily infects our party today, that for those politicians like FDR in his time, racism was also a similar flaw in the party then that they wanted to get out too, though I would have liked to see him to have done differently with the internment camps of Japanese ancestry citizens then, which he probably had more control over then.
I do also think that today, there are those same southern racists that are also concerned about things like losing their jobs that had them be Democrats then, that Donald Trump is trying to appeal to now. I think the challenge for this party is to communicate heavily that we're standing for Americans' job security, etc. by pushing back on what is destroying it like TPP and the other free trade deals, or "guest worker" programs like the H-1B, H-2B and other guest worker programs that exploit the "globalists" bottom that they keep wanting to our governments to legislate in to existence for them to race to. But at the same time ensure that we stand up for things like global labor rights, etc. everywhere in a fashion that isn't xenophobic the way these Republicans want to to keep and amplify the older racist attitudes that used to infect the Democratic Party. I think we can push for American job security without pushing for xenophobic attitudes. I think Bernie is clearly the best candidate for us to do that in this election, and I think could guide those that might lean towards the xenophobes but don't have that attitude in their hearts, as well as those that don't want corporatist exploitation to work together to win. He can win I think and make our country a better country run on better principles too.
rusty quoin
(6,133 posts)I wasn't so sure before. As we replay the infighting of 2008, much has changed. There seems to be a movement like what happened with Obama.
But, we know it is not just about winning president, and winning congress, it's about retaining congress in the midterms so there is not the usual thing of Democrats staying at home.
Maybe if Bernie wins, he will convince Democrats to go to the polls in midterm, because as much as I like Obama, he is no Bernie Sanders.
Then again, as much as I've hoped in the past, the movement will continue to give Bernie a congress that will back him. Then all we have to do is change the Supreme Court.
It takes a really long time for great change, and I am living it. I want to go back to FDR thinking.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... which will help out with turnout to hopefully give us good numbers in state legislatures, etc. to reverse the gerrymandering that we were left with from 2010's midterm losses. I'm hoping that if Bernie wins, and perhaps even if a one term president with Elizabeth Warren as his running mate, we can have some really high populist turnout in 2020 then as an endorsement to what he's done and to perhaps the first woman president then that will follow more in the footsteps legislatively and as a leader that Bernie sets as the model rather than the corporate Third Way we have had recently. It will be important to do well as possible in 2018, so that maybe we can get some things done in this next presidential term for things like climate change that won't wait until 2020.
rusty quoin
(6,133 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Until he was a threat to Hillary. Now they are scared and getting more scared every day as his popularity grows. I don't blame them. I'd be scared too if I was a Hillary supporter.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)Labels are cute but they don't define someone. I vote for candidates, not labels.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,405 posts)Thanks for the thread, Ken Burch.
merrily
(45,251 posts)of the Democratic Party. I am glad that Bernie is in the pocket of Big Voter.
Before that, Howard Dean, when DNC head, called him an asset to the Party, as did Schumer, when head of the DSCC. They thought he was such an asset, they didn't bother running anyone against him.
Bernie founded the House Progressive Caucus (now the Congressional Progressive Caucus) almost as soon as he got to Congress. I think that alone was a huge contribution.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)...like it was decades ago. We went from Big Tent to Back Yard Sleepover Tent. I, for one, am grateful to Bernie for giving the liberal wing of the party some one to get excited about.
Don't get me wrong, I've voted Democratic all my life...sometimes with more enthusiasm than others. But many just gave up. So I believe that he is attracting back the forgotten and disabused liberals along with those of any stripe or color, who just haven't felt either party gave a damn.
If it took an Independent to do it, then sobeit. Because the Democratic Party of the people/middle class is coming back...I just feel it.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)When you see people trying mightily to make Sanders into a gun nut, a racist, a stealer of data, and any other unsavory thing they can make up, you know you're dealing with some very low and base people. I sincerely hope these people are upset. I don't want bad actors on my side.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
madokie
(51,076 posts)What matters now is we're at a crossroads and if we don't get this one right we're literally fucked
When I type we I mean all of us in this country.
