Susan Sarandon, it's an idiotic idea to say, as you do

[pnwmom]

that some Democratic women are supporting Hillary over Bernie "just because she's a woman."

Many women -- and men who want a more just society -- think that Hillary's gender can be considered along with all the other attributes and experience that she brings to the table.

Her experience as Secretary of State and as Senator from the very large, diverse state of NY; her intelligence, huge knowledge base, fantastic campaign organization, and decades of devotion to progressive causes are reason enough to vote for her.

But yes, her gender for some (especially Republican women and Independents) might be the tipping point. Because it is a BIG FUCKING DEAL that no woman has ever been elected President in more than 200 years and women didn't even have the vote 100 years ago.

That is not the same as saying other women are voting with their vaginas, and it is extremely insulting to Hillary supporters, whose support Bernie would need if he goes to the General.

Despite what many Bernie supporters think, all gender issues aside, supporters of all three candidates, not just Bernie, have good reasons for believing that their candidate is the best.

[MeNMyVolt]

1. K&R from this male. n/t

[sufrommich]

2. I'll say what I said in GD,I don't think this a real quote.

If it is,I can't find the source or an actual interview where she makes this statement. I like Susan Sarandon,we're voting for different people in the primary,but I can't imagine her saying this.

[cherokeeprogressive]

27. Would you believe it if you could see it with your own eyes and hear it with your own ears?

If the answer is yes, go to the 1:25 point in this Youtube video which I believe was recorded within the last two days. Then come back and tell us what you think.

[sufrommich]

29. You probably should have read the rest of the thread. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

33. Just did. From now on I'll be sure to read every post in a thread/subthread before speaking.

[Ed Suspicious]

57. "People always say to me 'he is the best guy but he can't get elected.' Well fuck them." said this

awesome person.

[roguevalley]

63. some women are. some women are voting for a woman because they want a woman.

that is not impossible to believe because I've got friends who say it. she has nothing to apologize for. She's speaking the truth for a number of people. And this is down list from my intended spot, cherokeeprogressive. I hate drop downs.

[Cary]

94. She's vulgar.

And trite.

[Bernin4U]

3. The Iraq War wasn't just for oil.

When in doubt, strawman.

[pnwmom]

5. Straw man? What are you talking about? Susan Sarandon's quote

is featured prominently here today, in two highly recced posts.

[mcar]

83. ???

[awoke_in_2003]

114. Not sure why this is here...

but yes, it was just for oil. The idea about withdrawal was never talked about until Shell, BP, etc, had signed contracts with the Iraqi government.

[Bernin4U]

169. But 100.00%? No. (PNAC, no bids, 2nd term, etc)

See how easy? Nothing is ever 100.0000%

Convert anything into a straw man, and bob's your uncle.

[Ron Green]

4. How is that idiotic, for her to say that?

It almost HAS to be true, that SOME Democratic women are supporting her for this reason, while their views on almost every issue match those of Bernie Sanders.

[sufrommich]

6. And black people voted for Obama because he's black,said

every freeper ever. I don't believe Sarandon said this,she wouldn't insult women like that.

[Ron Green]

10. The word "some" is very powerful.

It makes her statement, as quoted in the OP, certainly true. As well as the one in your post.

[pnwmom]

8. No. If Dems were "just" supporting her for her gender, then their second choice

would be Carly Fiorina for President, not Bernie or Martin.

And please show me one Hillary supporter who shares Bernie's views on every issue -- including gun control (he voted against the Brady Bill and for the PLCAA) -- and thinks he has just as good a chance in the general.

[Ron Green]

15. You ignore the word "almost," so it's hard to respond

to what you're saying.

[pnwmom]

21. It's hard to respond to a claim with "almost" in front of it.

Did you mean what you said or not?

[Ron Green]

23. Yes; once again, some women support Hillary Clinton because she's

a woman, although they line up with Bernie Sanders on almost every issue.

Given the number of female voters in the United States, this statement is true.

[pnwmom]

58. Such a woman would be supporting Carly Fiorina as a second choice.

Have you ever seen a single DUer do that?

So it's very insulting to Hillary supporters here to rec that idiotic Sarandon quote. Yeah, she's not voting with her vagina. Goody for her.

[A Simple Game]

65. You started with Dem women and are now down to DU members, dare I read down thread? n/t

[pnwmom]

72. This is DU. Everything on DU's site is directed to DU readers, including

the insulting Sarandon quote.

[notadmblnd]

131. I'm not insulted by what she said and I'm a woman

The only people I could understand being insulted by it- is those it touches a nerve with.

[pnwmom]

137. Of course it's insulting to Hillary supporters to have it implied

that they are "just" voting for Hillary because she's a woman. Hillary supporters have many more reasons for supporting her.

[notadmblnd]

138. Sometimes the truth hurts

[pnwmom]

139. Lies hurt, but not the truth. n/t

[notadmblnd]

147. Lies don't always hurt and the truth is not always pleasant

It never hurt anyone to believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy all of which are lies. Just like telling someone who is homely that they are ugly- hurts. It may be the truth, but it is hurtful.

[pnwmom]

149. What Susan said is a lie, at least with regard to Democratic woman.

It's easy enough to prove that it isn't. Just find a quote from a Democratic woman who has said that she supports Hillary "just because she is a woman."

[notadmblnd]

150. You're the one that needs to prove it is a lie.

As the accuser, the burden of proof is on you.

You have a great evening now.

[Ron Green]

78. "Carly Fiorina as a second choice" makes no sense.

Any woman whose views match those of Bernie Sanders would likely not support Fiorina, but could certainly vote for Hillary just to "be a part of history."

[pnwmom]

80. Not to simply be a part of history, but to BRING CHANGE and help create a new future

where women and men are truly equals.

[okasha]

163. And some men support Sanders because he's a man,

although they line up with Hillary Clinton on almost every issue.

Given the number of male voters in the United States, this statement is true.

We can identify them on DU, the Cave and elsewhere by their descriptions of her laugh--"cackling, " "grating, " "chilling" etc-- and yatter about "cankles." Female fellow travellers talk about her "coldness," her "overweight" waistline. and her fashion choices.

[Ron Green]

164. I don't disagree with you.

People vote for certain candidates for all kinds of ignorant reasons. The refreshing thing about Bernie Sanders is that the reasons to vote for him really matter. They're about taking control of our government back from the few who shouldn't have it. For 99% of people, women and men.

[okasha]

165. The reason I'm not voting for Bernie Sanders

is that he doesn't seem to know what be would do with the government if he and his fans did "take it back."

Hillary's platform has clearly stated goals with measurable outcomes and strategies to achieve them. X solar panels by 2024. $Y.00 from tax increases on incomes above Z. Sanders has "the 99%" and "the People, " which break down to meaningless adveftising jingles when looked at closely.

This election is a decisive one on questions of the environment and international relations, to mention just two interrelated factors. Bernie gives warm fuzzies. So does Trump, to his constituency.

We don't need warm fuzzies. We need purpose and cogency.

[Ron Green]

168. I'll have to disagree with you there.

You're still operating within the paradigm where the president "does something." It's way too late for that in this country where, if we don't transform the entire representative system from top to bottom, a future world will be too grim to contemplate.

I'm sure Hillary's got lots of measurable objectives, and that's all good but it's not enough for a president, it's stuff for cabinet secretaries. We need a president who will tell the truth about the bought system we've allowed to be installed under our noses. We also need a president who will energize enough citizens to change that system from within and without, and to discredit and discard the very forces that support Ms. Clinton.

What you call "advertising jingles" and "warm fuzzies" are exactly what demoralized people need: actual hope, the kind Candidate Obama talked about but could not or would not deliver
because an Angry Black Man was way too soon for this fearful nation. It's entirely possible that an Old White Truth-Teller is too soon as well; I don't think the U.S. deserves this once-in-lifetime chance, and frankly will be surprised if Bernie makes it to the White House. But that doesn't mean I won't give it my best shot, because it's the right thing to do.

[Warren Stupidity]

53. Um no.

My wife is never going to vote for a republican but she is going to vote for Clinton because she wants a woman to run as the democratic candidate. She agrees with Sanders over Clinton on every issue except guns. The determining factor is Clinton's gender.

You can deny that these voters exist. You can pretend that they would vote for Fiorina. Reality is independent of what you happen to believe.

[pnwmom]

59. It may be your wife's determining factor but it is not her ONLY factor. As you say,

she favors Hillary's position on guns. And she wouldn't vote for Carly as a second choice in the general, so gender isn't her ONLY factor in deciding who to vote for.

Would you tell your wife she's voting with her vagina? Good luck on that.

[JonLeibowitz]

111. Would you say you know better than him the reasons for why his wife is choosing Clinton?

If so, why?

[pnwmom]

118. I haven't seen him disagree with me. Let him be the one to tell me that his wife

would support Carly as a second choice.

Till then, I'll assume she wouldn't.

[JonLeibowitz]

141. He already said his wife chose Hillary over Sanders on gender.

Fiorina is irrelevant.

[Squinch]

37. Those that you think are voting for her because she's a woman will be more than cancelled out

by voters who will NOT vote for her because she is a woman.

I think most women, whether they be for Hillary or against her, fully understand that this is true.

[Cary]

106. lotsa luck

Hillary Clinton is a near lock on the nomination.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251974068

You need a Plan B.

[Squinch]

116. You misinterpret my comment. I am saying that there are those who will vote for her and

those who will vote against her because she is a woman. I am saying nothing about whether she will be nominated or not.

I will likely be supporting her. There WILL be many, many people who will refuse to vote for her because she is a woman.

[Cary]

123. Ok. Sorry

[Squinch]

129. No problem.

I was not clear.

[tecelote]

7. This I agree with...

"Because it is a BIG FUCKING DEAL that no woman has ever been elected President in more than 200 years and women didn't even have the vote 100 years ago."

But I am very disappointed that the possible first women President seems to feel a need to be more of a hawk than any man. She believes in regime change (imperialism) and does not seem to care about collateral damage (innocent people killed as a necessary evil).

If Hillary were a champion of peace... but she's not.

[Thinkingabout]

12. Sanders not only believes in regime change, he voted for regime

Change when he voted yea on the ILA.

[tecelote]

19. Not true.

He voted to support already deployed troops.

Plus, we are taking about now. Syria. Third debate. They both make it very clear.

[Thinkingabout]

24. The Iraqi Liberalization Act may not be connected to Syria.

It was for regime change in Iraq.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act

[tecelote]

25. One vote nearly two decades ago does not equate to Hillary's position today.

Bernie is the choice of everyone that cares about ending the endless wars.

[Thinkingabout]

30. Sure it does, Sanders record follows him, it doesn't go away.

What happened to Bernie never changes?

[tecelote]

34. Say what you want while more die.

Let Hillary flip flop here. I'll applaud her and tell everyone I know.

[Ed Suspicious]

36. We came! We saw! he died!

[leftofcool]

70. This is why Obama will never support Bernie.

Bernie has not really changed his position on guns.

[Vattel]

41. Yes, but Sanders didn't support using an invasion to achieve regime change.

[Thinkingabout]

44. On the subject of regime change, Sanders is on record voting for regime change.

[Vattel]

47. He didn't vote to use American military force to achieve regime change.

He argued against doing that.

[Thinkingabout]

69. Truth is he voted for regime change, undeniable, he voted for AUMF 2001,

Ergo military action.

[Vattel]

84. Let me clarify. He didn't support or vote for the use of American military force

to achieve regime change in Iraq. That is the only thing I want to make clear. It needs to made clear because Hillary supporters like yourself keep trying to misrepresent his vote for the ILA as a vote for invading Iraq.

[EndElectoral]

96. V...he doesn't want to hear that. Simple delineation-a vote for military auth. or not

These people who want to equate Clinton's vote to use military force in Iraq versus Sander's vote for Hussein to step down are two entirely different things.

One cost significant lives, and money, and one is a request to avoid this kind of overstep.

It's kind of like a vote to militarily invade North Korea, than to condemn Kim's actions and ask him to step down. Essentially, one begins war, and the other voices that we do not approve of your behavior in the region.

But, Hilary supporters don't want to hear this. They want to equate Sanders vote with Clinton's vote. I think most know it, but it's just a way for them to save face for Clinton's mistaken vote, which by the way she has admitted was a mistake. And a big one.

[pangaia]

48. Right, a point seemingly too obtuse for many to understand.

[stupidicus]

67. that's because he's not a

and understands the diff between voting to authorize military action and voting for a symbolic piece of legislation that made it clear in section 8, that it was not nor was ever to be about "regime change" by way of military action.

[pnwmom]

14. A woman who was as much of a pacifist as Bernie could never be elected

the first woman President, because the stereotype still held by many is that women are WEAK. A woman has to overcome that hurdle before she can even be considered.

Down the road, it might be possible. Hopefully it will be possible. But the first woman to make a successful run can't be perceived as someone who is weak.

Although I have noticed that even Bernie, in his promises to destroy ISIS sounds more warmongering than he used to. Even Bernie is bowing to the realities of getting elected in the US.

[tecelote]

18. Not as much as Hillary.

I disagree. You do not need thousands of dead to show how tough you are. Unless you're Republican.

[pnwmom]

22. He doesn't have to. He's got the Y chromosome.

People automatically credit him with a backbone. That's also why he gets to shout and Hillary doesn't.

If Hillary had his loud voice and angry demeanor, she would never have succeeded this far. She's walking a tightrope. She has to be very controlled and she can never seem weak. Otherwise she would be viewed as an emotional, less competent female.

[tecelote]

26. Too bad she has to condone continued killing in the ME just to win.

I'll proudly vote for the first women who does not need to out gun the men.

[pnwmom]

40. Show me the woman you'd proudly vote for and I'll show you a woman

who doesn't have a chance.

[tecelote]

50. Elizabeth Warren

[hifiguy]

97. Any day of the week.

I would be thrilled to vote for Senator Warren.

[pnwmom]

122. Who doesn't have the inclination to run. How convenient for you.

The only acceptable woman is the one without the fire in her belly for the job.

[hifiguy]

152. You asked to be shown a woman who "you would vote for."

That question was answered, and with profound clarity.

[pnwmom]

153. Right. The woman with the lack of ambition. How convenient. n/t

[hifiguy]

154. Oy.

[farleftlib]

145. That was a direct hit!

You sunk her battleship!

[Vattel]

52. I doubt that is true, but it is difficult to prove one way or the other.

Your claim that Bernie is supporting destroying ISIS for political reasons is a baseless smear.

[emulatorloo]

155. Bernie is not a pacifist.

[reformist2]

9. I want to see a woman president. I just don't want it to be Hillary.

[winter is coming]

11. +1. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. BINGO. nt

[orpupilofnature57]

32. + 1000

[hifiguy]

89. Blammo. Drop the mic.

Game over.

[SammyWinstonJack]

112. +1000000

[sufrommich]

13. It turns out she really did say that.

That's incredibly disappointing to me.

[pnwmom]

16. Thanks for checking. n/t

[sufrommich]

20. I didn't check,someone pointed it out to me. nt

[BlueMTexpat]

38. It's disappointing to me too.

But I still like Susan S. I just don't agree that BS is the best candidate.

[A Simple Game]

71. You think women should think with their vaginas? Should men think with their penises?

Just what do you find wrong about her statement?

[Thinkingabout]

17. If Bernie Sanders was as qualified as Hillary Clinton I would be

Supporting him.

[BlueMTexpat]

39. Excellent comment! eom

[orpupilofnature57]

31. Idiotic because he's more a of a feminist than Hillary, and after polls and money like Donald, she

is an opportunist .

[pnwmom]

42. Planned Parenthood, Gloria Steinem, and many other feminists back Hillary.

Anyone who thinks he's more of a feminist doesn't know what the word even means.

[A Simple Game]

73. I don't care if Bernie is more of a feminist than Hillary, it doesn't even get to that point.

Bernie is a better human than Hillary, it needs to go no further than that.

[hifiguy]

90. Nobody owns Bernie.

That's the important thing.

[Go Vols]

151. +1

[Sheepshank]

35. I've never understood this line of attack against Hillary.

The reality is that because she is a woman she is also likely to lose a bunch of votes, just as Obama lost votes because of the color of his skin.

The reality of life is that gender and skin color or even religion (Kennedy's for example) is rarely the sole issue for most people voting or not voting for a candidate.

Reality sucks for those where reality doesn't seem to be in their favor.

[pangaia]

43. She is not saying that YOU are voting for Hillary because she is a woman.

She is not saying that anybody specifically is voting for Hillary because she is a woman.
She is saying that there are people (women) who are voting for Hillary because she is a woman.
There were African Americans who voted for Obama because he is African American, I am sure.

It simply is the truth.

[pnwmom]

45. Show me one single Dem woman who is voting for Hillary "just" because she is a woman.

If that were true, then the second choice would be Carly Fiorina, and I haven't heard of a single Dem female who would vote for Carly "just" because she is a woman.

[pangaia]

49. Oh, please.

I really do not believe you are that dense.

[leftofcool]

61. And I don't believe you can answer the question with proof!

[sufrommich]

51. That is what is so insulting about statements

like this. It's basically the old canard that women act with their hearts instead of their heads. I'm shocked Sarandon went there.

[leftofcool]

68. I am too since she has donated to Hillary's campaign in 2008 and probably this one.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. This article, posted repeatedly by HRC supporters here, expresses EXACTLY that sentiment.

She says so right in the first line; "here's why- I want to have a woman president"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251891263

Then goes on to say, again, how dare you suggest I'm voting based on gender, and by the way I want a president who is a woman because she's a woman.

[pangaia]

136. No. It is not 'the old 'canard.'

It is the absolute truth. And it is not about 'women.'

Sarandon never said all 'women vote for Clinton because she is a woman.'
She said, or perhaps I had better say implied, that there ARE woman who will vote for Clinton because she is a woman. I mean, DUH !!!!

There were AA people who voted for Obama because he is part AA.
There were people who voted against Obama because is is part AA.

There were men who voted for McCain because ....dicks.
There are people who voted for McCain because he was in the navy.

There were people who would NOT vote for Kennedy because he was catholic.
There were people who DID voted for Kennedy because he was good looking.

I mean, come on, this stuff HAPPENS. Does this really have to be explained?

[Juicy_Bellows]

148. They seem hellbent on not getting it. Good effort though! Nt.

[Hiraeth]

46. -almost- as idiotic as this OP ... -almost- (yes, I read the whole thread before replying)

[tk2kewl]

54. i know some women doing exactly that

[sufrommich]

55. Why did they choose Clinton over Carly Fiorina? nt

[tk2kewl]

56. because they're not idiots?

I have been told by women, my father's wife included, that they want a women president and that is why they support Hillary over Bernie.

And I don't doubt that Susan Sarandon has experienced the same.

[Maedhros]

62. It's very confusing to watch Democrats march against the Bush invasion of Iraq,

condemn the institutional racism inherent in the private prison industry, and bemoan the controlling influence of corporate cash in the electoral process - and then have those same Democrats fall in behind a candidate who voted FOR the invasion, who stacked her fundraising staff with private prison industry lobbyists, and whose coffers are overflowing with corporate money.

Either they don't really care about those things they pretended to despise, or they are ignoring those things because of gender. It might make sense in the absence of a true Liberal contender, but we have a great Liberal candidate that requires no nose-holding so it's not necessary to compromise one's principles when voting in the primary.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

66. Thank you!

The "woman" factor is heavily weighted on some scales.

[reformist2]

77. Hillary is a celebrity way past her prime, with groupies who just won't let go.

When Hillary first arrived on the national scene along with her husband Bill, she made quite a splash as a strong, outspoken liberal. As such, she won many fans, loyal to her for life, as we now know. Even though she has compromised and caved on issue after issue, her fans still believe in her. Despite all evidence to the contrary, they believe that she is still a liberal at heart. They refuse to see how the past 25 years in Washington DC and playing pay-to-play politics have changed her. It's tragic, really.

[Maedhros]

93. I was one of those people!

Back in 1996, I was saying that I'd rather have Hillary in the White House than Bill.

However, as time passed it became apparent that while her rhetoric may have been liberal, her policies were not.

[hifiguy]

119. It's a fanclub now.

Very well said.

[hifiguy]

101. There you go again.

Pointing out those nasty, troublesome FACTS.

[Maedhros]

113. As I said, it would make some kind of sense if there were no other options.

Say the Democratic field this year was Hillary Clinton, Claire McCaskill, Joe Manchin and Ben Nelson, I could see making the argument that we need to overlook some of Hillary's warts and select her as the nominee over the rest.

But we've got Bernie Sanders and Martin O'Malley, both of whom are better than Hillary on nearly every single issue of importance to Liberals.

The only valid argument I can see in favor of Hillary is her "experience," but as others have pointed out, that "experience" comprises inside-the-Beltway corporate-special-interest influence peddling and cheer leading for war.

[hifiguy]

117. You got it.

[CharlotteVale]

104. It's downright surreal.

[Warren DeMontague]

110. Opposing the Iraq Invasion was misogyny!

So is being in favor of pot legalization.

Damn you, Misogynistic Misogyny!

[MisterP]

64. "decades of devotion to progressive causes"? "experience as Secretary of State"?

yeah, and Christie has mounds of experience with transit

[pnwmom]

74. Yes. Decades. Ask Marian Edelman, who helped Hillary produce a campaign video,

or Planned Parenthood, which has never endorsed a candidate for President, but says she has the strongest record on women's issues of any Presidential candidate ever.

[A Simple Game]

76. You get my vote for "Response of the Day." n/t

[MisterP]

81. here's my response from the last "gender outweighs all other considerations and how dare you imply

that I think that gender outweighs all other considerations" post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251944119

Iraq, Libya, and Syria are raging hells for women: in Honduras the golpista police evidently have rape *units*; rape and rape-murder, especially of transwomen, is through the roof and approaching Jamaican levels; catracha human-rights activists--their husbands blown up or "disappeared" so thoroughly that not even bones are left to mourn--were usually not picked up themselves because they were women, but most did escape torture chambers or duck car bombings by the death squads--they say it's worse than it ever was, since now there's no hope with a right-wing military solidly in power as never before

by contrast Doyle's Tumblr is full of complaints about Bernie Bros, pure delirium, some sort of nameless centrist panic, some Gruniad piece I refuse to link to entitled "Before Lena Dunham, There Was Anaïs Nin," praise for Kanye and Jessica Valenti as major thinkers of our age, guilt over Paddy's Day, the right to walk down dark alleys, Tyrion Lannister complaints, how Hannibal stamps out sexism, "In Defense of Peeta Mallark," "Tech Bros," the real women behind the Manic Pixie Dream Girl fantasy, "the female literati’s neglect of its working-class sisters," "Shulamith Firestone wrote at a time when feminists would risk the absurd for brilliant insights," why Assange must fry, and a lot of other things that are either inconsequential or inconsequentially posed

her wish list "How Star Wars Can Avoid Becoming Dude Wars" is a masterpiece of inconsequentiality
1) Please have girls in it
2) End the plague of White Man Feelings
3) No more danger-induced stripping
4) More Ewoks
5) Keep our expectations down

[beam me up scottie]

75. Pffft.

Some women are supporting Hillary because she's a woman, they agree with Bernie's policies but want to see that glass ceiling shattered.

Shame on you Susan, under the bus!

How dare you state the obvious?

Bad feminist!

[Warren DeMontague]

79. Some people have been very clear that they're voting for her based upon her gender.

That doesn't mean they would vote for ANY woman, but if the fact that "she is the first real opportunity to have a female president" is a primary reason for picking her, then yes, it's basically because she's a woman.

What is interesting to me is that all the rationales HRC supportes seem to list- the historic aspects of a woman president, her political skills, her "electability", her resume, etc. it's almost never her specific stances on the issues as opposed to other Democratic candidates that is put as a prime reason.

I think that's interesting.


Also, I think it's sexist to dismiss this woman's opinion out of hand or to call it "idiotic". Misogyny does not belong on DU.

[pnwmom]

85. It is a form of misogyny to accuse Hillary supporters of voting with their vaginas.

Even if Sarandon does it. It is demeaning and contemptuous to make that claim.

And the reason that you don't often see Hillary's specific stances on the issues cited is because most Hillary supporters are aware of her progressive record and don't think there is a large difference between the three candidates on the issues -- especially compared to the vast gulf with the candidates on the other side of the aisle. And many think Hillary is by far the most electable. (Obviously Bernie supporters disagree.)

By the way, ontheissues.org rates both her and Bernie as "hard core liberal" based on their voting record, with Bernie just a tad to the left.

Hillary's proposals can be found on her website, hillaryclinton.com

[Warren DeMontague]

92. This opinion piece has been posted here, repeatedly, by Hillary supporters:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251891263

She says it flat out: "I want to have a woman president".

Now, you can twist that around to suggesting women are "voting with their vaginas", but I highly doubt anyone here has made that specific allegation, although such a thing would be impressive, from a physical dexterity perspective.

People have straight up admitted they are voting for her, in part or in whole, because she's a woman, because they want a woman president, because it's past time to have a woman president. I agree, myself, with some of those arguments, even if I don't agree about supporting this particular woman in this particular primary cycle.

But, please. She's probably going to be the nominee, so my advice would be to try to get a bit of a grip. Every criticism of her is not "misogyny".

The other day DWS gave an interview in the NY Times to a woman where she insulted millennial women and floated a bunch of lame justifications for a racist drug war which impacts minorities and women, and some people are trying to spin, predictably, that because she's a crappy DNC chair and a dinosaur on issues like throwing pot smokers in prison, criticism of her is "because misogyny"

The act doesn't work.

[mcar]

82. K&R

[Autumn]

87. No, an idiotic idea is that some women have said just that, democratic women.

[pnwmom]

95. Please show me a link to back that up. I haven't seen a single Democratic woman

saying she is "just" supporting Hillary because she's a woman.

But I have heard of Republican and Independent women saying that, which will no doubt help us in the General.

[Autumn]

102. I doubt you know all democratic women because women posting on DU

are not the only women there are. I have heard that straight up from real democratic women. Strangely enough all the Independent women I know support Bernie.

[pnwmom]

124. Just find one single quote from a Democratic woman who says that.

Who thinks that Hillary, with all her experience and knowledge, and debating skills and campaign organization, brings absolutely nothing to the table except her gender -- and so is willing to vote for her "just" because she's a woman.

[Autumn]

127. I don't have to find you anything, I posted what I have seen. Just as your OP is what you have seen.

[stupidicus]

88. some would say it's equally so to contend that "ZERO" women feel that way

when they likely number in the thousands at the very least.

[pnwmom]

98. Please show me a single Democratic woman who has publicly stated that

her only reason for voting for Hillary is that she's a woman.

Link ,please.

[stupidicus]

132. that's total nonsense

what do I need to do, keep a recorder handy and somehow make it accessible to accomodate somebody who's clearly making preposturous claims? The point isn't whether some prominent or lesser dem woman makes or has made a public comment our MSM might capture, but whether or not that's the case with all dem women, known and unknown. Amongst all dem women you're "reasoning" is fatally flawed.

Try moving the goal post again, no?

Secondly,

“As a woman, initially I was interested in Quinn. It became clear to me that, you know as a woman, you can’t just vote your vagina.”

she's merely addressing the weight some give it, like it as a consideration might trump things it shouldn't, not that it's the ONLY thing they consider.

Imo the idea that there aren't ANY dem women who'll vote for her based on her gender alone or by way of trumping all other "considerations", is preposturous and hardly worthy of any refutation.

[pnwmom]

133. Surely there must be some Democratic woman somewhere who has publicly stated that.

For attribution.

Or else Sarandon and all the DUers who are lauding her are lauding a straw man. Or straw woman, in this instance.

[stupidicus]

142. hardly, that's just an unsatisfiable standard you're imposing

in an obvious effort to deny what the sheer numbers dictate must be the case, making your case untenable.

What's next, there are no sinners amongst all those dem women as well?

I have seven sisters, two of which are supporting her because she's a woman and a dem, and that's it.

I had no idea that you women had all the political acumen/sophistication/etc that we men lack, nor about how well it serves in insulating your gender from biases of the gender-selecting sort.

[pnwmom]

144. I think you should have this discussion with your sisters instead of me.

Probably they could teach you something.

[stupidicus]

146. thanks for conceding you're ____ doesn't survive scrutiny

it's as preposturous as my positing that NO MEN WOULD NOT VOTE FOR HC BECAUSE SHE IS A WOMAN.

[passiveporcupine]

91. If you were talking about all women, I'd agree with you

But she said "some" women, and some women are actually voting for Hillary just because they want to see a woman president. It really is that simple.

[pnwmom]

99. She may have been referring to Rethug women. But DUers have been posting her

quote and claiming it applies to some of Hillary's Democratic supporters.

Without a single piece of evidence that that's true.

[passiveporcupine]

103. It just makes sense that some women, whether

republican or democrat, are going to be so into feminism, that they will vote for a women. No matter what. For you to deny that without any proof to the contrary, is absurd.

Also, just because some women agree with her on some issues does not necessarily deflect from the reality that they are voting for her because she is a woman, when in fact, some of the other candidates might have even more issues they agree with.

It's still a gender vote. if that is their main criteria.

[pnwmom]

115. I'm still waiting for a single quote from any Democratic woman that

she's "just" voting for her because she's a woman.

It doesn't make ANY sense to me that any Democrat would say that the only reason she was voting for a candidate as highly qualified as Hillary was because of her gender.

People don't pick candidates solely based on their stands on the issues, as you know. They also base them on an assessment of their temperament; and many Hillary supporters think that that's a positive for her, compared to Bernie. (I personally think he tends to see the world in black and white terms and that he's much too rigid.) And they also choose candidates based on their ability to compete against the other side; again, many Hillary supporters think she'll do a better job in the General.

Obviously Bernie supporters disagree. They think Hillary is too compromising and untrustworthy.
But it's an insult to Hillary supporters, who view her candidacy as so strong in so many ways, to suggest that Democratic women would vote for her only because of her gender.

We just disagree on who is the better candidate. We're not ONLY supporting her for her gender, though that's a nice bonus.

[stupidicus]

134. of course it does

outta millions there should be thousands at least that do exactly that

[jalan48]

100. I don't know if it's so much that Hillary is a woman as it is a vindication.

After what she went through as First Lady to be able to come back and become President would be very satisfying for her and for many woman who experienced something similar. It's human nature to want to see someone do well after a bad experience, especially one that was so very public.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. Yeah, I think for a certain slice of the electorate, exactly what you say. You nailed it.

Which explains why certain people are seemingly emotionally over-identified with this whole thing, or act like this is some referendum on their own lives or experiences or payback or what have you.

It also explains why HRC's whole deal tends to, statistically, fall more flat with people who may not feel she represents something personal to them or some "vindication" as you put it for whatever they've experienced in their own lives-

like Millennial women, in particular.

[jalan48]

121. I think for Bill Clinton as well.

Helping his wife become President is a way for him to atone for his actions and maybe even more importantly, to atone for how his actions effected his daughter Chelsea. I think there is a lot going on here for the Clinton's, more than just becoming the first woman President.

[Warren DeMontague]

125. Maybe, although I still remember the stuff about "getting two for one" back in 1992.

And there were noises even then about how the WH was an eventual goal for her.

What's ironic is, I liked them a lot.. I still like them, but his Presidency has not aged well in retrospect (not the scandal stuff- I could give a shit about that) and she really lost a lot of her lustre for me between 2001-2006, in between the IWR, "marriage is between a man and a woman", proposing pander bear laws against flag burning, etc.

I still like Hillary, but she disappointed the crap out of me in intervening years. I will support her if she's the nominee, but I think we can do better.

[jalan48]

128. I agree. It's like they became full-blown yuppies and lost their 60's idealism.

Bernie seems to have retained much of his, that's why I like him.

[underthematrix]

105. Thank you Susan. #ImWithHer

Last edited Fri Jan 8, 2016, 11:23 PM - Edit history (1)

[zentrum]

107. Well England had

…..Thatcher and it didn't help women in England one FUCKING whit. A woman who has the policies of the old boys club will not help women in this country either.

In fact Thatcher, the hawk, hurt working and middle class English families.

As a woman I'm for Bernie because I think he'll be better for women and families. So in a way I am voting with my vagina—because I follow the one who has the strongest feminist values.

[pnwmom]

120. Hillary is much closer to Bernie than to Thatcher.

Hillary's voting record, according to ontheissues.org, put her in the same category as Bernie, "hard core liberal," with Bernie just a tad to the left.

So it's ridiculous to compare her to Thatcher.

[beam me up scottie]

126. So if she's so close to Bernie and in fact to the left of him why vote for Hillary?

Because she's a ... ?

[zentrum]

130. My point

…..was that a woman doesn't necessarily improve the lot of women. After all, are we post-racial just because of Obama? Hardly.

Especially if said woman is a hawk.

Bernie has a 100% voting record from NARAL. A self described "socialist" would be an even bigger break through for this Uber-Capitalist country.

PP shouldn't have endorsed one democrat over another and should have waited until after the primary.

I'll be calling them on monday.

[lunamagica]

159. "Globally, no candidate has done more for women's rights than Secretary Clinton"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrea-dew-steele/why-hillary-clinton-has-t_b_8073982.html

Globally, no candidate has done more for women's rights than Secretary Clinton. In her time as Secretary of State, she appointed the first-ever Ambassador-at-Large for Global Women's Issues at the State Department; oversaw the creation of the U.S. National Action Plan on Women, Peace, and Security; and introduced the Global Health Initiative (GHI), investing $63 billion to help partner countries provide robust maternal and infant health services. Secretary Clinton has worked tirelessly to elevate women's rights as the key towards economic prosperity and global stability. Her public and private initiatives have appropriated millions of dollars towards providing secondary education to young girls around the world, and tackling the obstacles that face at-risk youths.

The best predictor of future performance is past performance, and when it comes to women's issues, the record is clear. Hillary Clinton is the best candidate for women -- not simply because she is one -- but because she holds the strongest and most consistent record of effectively championing women's rights, economically, socially and politically. Breaking the ultimate glass ceiling does not constitute a political strategy, but electing a strong woman with a concrete track record of protecting and defending women's rights certainly does.

[zentrum]

162. Except for all

…..those poor women she and Bill threw off of welfare without help for childcare or job search support, growing their poverty. And all those LGBT people she was mum about until just this year as she "evolved" and "discovered" that DADT was terrible. And that pro-war vote she did to support the worst foreign policy decision in American history that resulted in thousands of dead women and children. NAFTA. And her reneging on the bankruptcy rules for middle class families is another one. Ask Warren.

So except for all that, she's been great for us girls. "The best predictor of future performance is past performance," indeed.

I realize she wasn't President when Bill did some of those things but she lent her voice to all of them and helped him pass this stuff.

As a woman I really do feel safer with Bernie, and not just for American women, but women around the world.

[Kentonio]

173. Actually it did help women in Britain.

Not in terms of her policies but in terms of shattering the glass ceiling and giving young girls the belief that they genuinely could achieve anything they wanted to.

I'm saying this as a Sanders supporter incidentally. A Clinton Presidency would do a great deal for women, but personally I think the massive income inequality in the country is a bigger and more urgent problem right now, and one unlikely to be resolved in the foreseeable future without Sanders election. America desperately needs a woman president very soon though.

[Starry Messenger]

108. Disappointing of Susan.

[Kalidurga]

135. If you truly believe in equality that means

you can chose a person based on what they believe and you can reject the other based on what they believe and you can actually end up choosing a man over a woman. I am still going with the one I think is most qualified and who shares my values and my values are not in line with the Goldman Sac candidate.

[The Traveler]

140. I disagree because

I have been told several times by people I don't know and who don't know me that I must be a misogynist and racist (no kidding) JUST because I oppose Ms. Clinton.

Now, it is by NO MEANS the case that the majority of Clinton supporters come across that way ... but it is by no means a rare experience, either. Ms. Sarandon appears to have run into a bit of that and this is her response to those voices. I see nothing wrong with it. That's how she feels and I understand why and she has every right to speak her mind.

But I agree it doesn't add much value to the discussion.

Not everyone who supports Ms. Clinton or Mr. Sanders is doing so for well thought out reasons, I suspect. Or perhaps they are so committed to their candidate they cannot see that others might have legitimate objections or concerns.

And then there is this ... what some perceive as a qualification others will perceive as establishing a disqualification. You cite as a qualification one of the things that makes it difficult, if not impossible, for me to support Ms. Clinton. The details of Ms. Clinton's record of service as Secretary of State fill me with grave concerns as to how and why she would utilize military power and covert operations during her Presidency. When and why do we go to war? Topple governments? Enable insurrection? How will we conduct those operations? I genuinely and strongly disagree with what appear to be her answers to these questions. (And, yes, I understand that implies I have disagreements with President Obama's answers. Yep. I do.)

On the other hand, I don't feel Mr. Sanders has completely filled in his foreign and military policy vision. In terms of general philosophy, his approach sounds better to me. But devils live in those details ...

These are some of the real issues upon which we should focus and attempt to hammer out a consensus, if possible. The tension between Clinton and Sanders camps reminds me so much of 2008 ... and I think this big disagreement about war and peace is just one of the root causes. We Democrats have a lot of serious stuff to discuss if we are to achieve a true consensus. And if we fail to do that, the Party will be weakened.

Trav

[seaglass]

143. OMG I just realized that I DO usually vote for the Vagina Candidate

Let me see...

Elizabeth Warren - vagina - check
Nikki Tsongas - vagina - check
Martha Coakley - vagina - check

I never fucking realized that I vote for so many vaginas, I wonder if they have anything else in common.

[Go Vols]

156. I'm Voting for Hillary Clinton Because She's a Woman

If they truly mean what they say, then I agree: gender should not matter.

The sad truth is that it still does, which is why Hillary's gender is the tipping point for me when deciding between Hillary or Bernie.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jillian-gutowitz/im-voting-for-hillary-clinton-because-shes-a-woman_b_8684910.html

[beam me up scottie]

157. Well there you go, I suppose the op will apologize to Susan now.

In fact I'm SURE she will.

[Go Vols]

160. Yep

Star Member pnwmom (67,262 posts)
149. What Susan said is a lie, at least with regard to Democratic woman.

It's easy enough to prove that it isn't. Just find a quote from a Democratic woman who has said that she supports Hillary "just because she is a woman."

[pnwmom]

158. She said it was the "tipping point." Meaning it was ONE of the factors

that encouraged her vote -- the final, key factor.

NOT that she was voting for her "just because she's a woman."

Thanks for the link. She has some important things to say. Like:

Now, I'm not a political analyst and I'm certainly no political writer -- I'm merely a social observer. But I'm no imbecile. If Snooki ran for president, I wouldn't vote for her just because she's a woman. I don't support Carly Fiorina, because we couldn't have more opposite views. Sarah Palin may as well have been a character on Rick and Morty. But here's a woman -- Hillary -- who has spent years in the White House, has proven herself a powerful politician, and has the knowledge, platforms, passion, perspective and qualifications to back it up. She supports gay marriage, racial equality, narrowing the nation's wealth divide, Planned Parenthood, access to safe, legal abortions, eradicating the wage gap -- and she wants to rebuild and empower the middle class. Those are all the qualities I personally am looking for in a president.

Social media seems to be full of men -- some women, but overwhelmingly men -- arguing that Bernie Sanders is better than Hillary Clinton. He very well may be, and I actually really like Bernie Sanders. But the specific group of commenters I'm speaking of is the one that says it's childish to vote for Hillary because she is a woman. They say that the public should be voting based on political platforms and that gender has nothing to do with it. I have a hard time believing that even they agree with what they're saying, because if gender truly didn't matter, then we would have seen many women presidents in our history, and Hillary's gender wouldn't be a topic of discussion at all. If they truly mean what they say, then I agree: gender should not matter.

[Hiraeth]

170. SHE IS NOT VOTING WITH HER VAGINA. SHE IS USING HER BRAIN. LEAVE HER ALONE!!!

[Go Vols]

171. Exactly

She used her brain to write an article entitled "I'm Voting for Hillary Clinton Because She's a Woman", witch the OP requested an example of.

[Hiraeth]

172. EXACTLY!! THIS IS A SMART WOMAN!! DON'T CONFUSE HER WITH THE FACTS!!

[GeorgeGist]

161. Some:

some1
[səm]
DETERMINER
an unspecified amount or number of:
"I made some money running errands" · [more]
used to refer to someone or something that is unknown or unspecified:
"she married some newspaper magnate twice her age" · [more]
(used with a number) approximately:
"some thirty different languages are spoken"
a considerable amount or number of:
"he went to some trouble" · [more]
PRONOUN
an unspecified number or amount of people or things:
"here are some of our suggestions" · [more]
at least a small amount or number of people or things:
"surely some have noticed"
ADVERB
N. AMER.
informal
to some extent; somewhat:
"when you get to the majors, the rules change some"
Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press

Your welcome.

[Ken Burch]

166. How can it be such a "BIG FUCKING DEAL" that HRC's much more conservative positions don't matter?

It's not as if military intervention in the Middle East could ever be feminist. War can never benefit anyone but men from here on in. The only war that ever had feminist consequences was World War II, and all the gains women made there were immediately reversed after VJ Day.

No women can ever be empowered or liberated by war again.

[Moonwalk]

167. If Sarandon is right, then Bernie is in big trouble (and his supporters ought to be very worried—)

Essentially, Sarandon is saying is that the only way for a female Hillary voter to prove she is not voting her vagina is to vote for Bernie. That voting for Bermie somehow proves the person is considering the candidate over their gender. And, clearly, a lot of Bernie supporters here believe this—as all their K&R of this indicate. But neither Sarandon or any of these supporters are using their heads. THINK: At this point, it's pretty clear that if Bernie wins the primary, he will do so by a small margin, not a landslide. If all those Hillary supporters really, I mean REALLY are voting for her just because she's a woman, if that is what they want and a man won't do...then why should they vote for Bernie?

If Bernie wins the primary, he needs those voters. So Sarandon and everyone here better pray that the majority of those women are NOT voting for Clinton just because she's a woman...otherwise, Bernie won't have them helping him in his election, won't have them voting for him. And he needs every voter he can get.

Of course, as others have pointed out, the GOP said this very same thing in regards to Obama. "You're only voting for him because he's black." The assumption was that we'll change our vote just to prove this was not true.

Well, we knew we weren't voting for Obama just because he was black, and we really didn't care if others thought we were. And, of course, those who might have been voting of him because he was black (I'm sure there were some) certainly weren't going to change their minds just because someone pointed this out. Which is to say, if a voter wants Clinton because she's a woman, then pointing it out isn't going to change that voter's mind. If a voter isn't voting for her just because she's a woman, then you've just insulted them. Meaning they've no reason to listen to you further, even if you have some really good arguments as to why Bernie is the better candidate. I can't stop Sarandon or any other celebrity from saying divisive and stupid things like this, but I would ask all here to please, think. When you agree with such statements, recommend them, cheer for them...you drive away those you are going to want on your side if your side wins. Insulting the intelligence of the other side is no way to win them over. Nor to gain your long term goal of winning the White House.