Attacking Bernie for seeking Conscientious Objector status may be the most laughable smear yet

[cali]

So some veteran claims this makes him ineligible to be CiC and Hill fans, who almost surely supported Bill, chime in with hearty agreement.

Bill Clinton, mitt Romney and others actively avoided serving to avoid Vietnam.

How is it that using their privilege to avoid Vietnam didn't disqualify them them, but it disqualifies Bernie?

Is it more dishonorable to seek CO status than to use your connections to get deferments?

The hypocrisy and cogdis is stunning.

[beam me up scottie]

1. Agreed.

After watching Republicans smear Bill for years over this it's disgusting to watch Democrats do the same thing to Bernie.

He was honest about his opposition to the war, he didn't lie.

The term "draft dodger" is a right wing talking point, it has no place here.

[cascadiance]

10. And is that less principled than the "bone spur" medical deferment that Trump got to avoid service?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/questions-linger-about-trumps-draft-deferments-during-vietnam-war/2015/07/21/257677bc-2fdd-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html

Pretty controversial on how legitimate this medical deferment was, etc. it would appear, kind of like Bush's National Guard "service" then too, that MANIPULATED Dan Rather out of the corporate media where they didn't want to keep more honest journalists working for them.

[beam me up scottie]

15. Bush Sr. used his influence to keep jr out of Nam and the man who went in his place died there.

Junior couldn't even be bothered to finish out his time in the guard.

I have no doubt that Trump paid a doctor for his diagnosis too, the rich always find ways to get out of serving.

I don't blame the men who fled to Canada or became conscientious objectors.

[Hortensis]

33. Who "attacked" him?

[daleanime]

43. Where does the poster say anything....

about "attacks"?

[Hortensis]

50. Anybody else? Who "attacked" him?

[jkbRN]

58. It's called "Google" and "research"

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/columnists/iowa-view/caucus/2015/09/11/bernie-sanders-conscientious-objector-vietnam-war/72070980/

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/columnists/iowa-view/caucus/2015/08/26/sanders-commander-chief-vietnam-war-veteran/32404645/

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/bernie-sanders-applied-conscientious-objector-status-vietnam-campaign/story?id=33434041

[Hortensis]

71. These are discussions of his background, JkbRN.

Falling short of 100% approval does not constitute "attack." I'm sure somebody did somewhere, but this isn't it. Maybe Drudge or Rush? Dick Cheney?

[beam me up scottie]

162. Calling Bernie a draft dodger is "discussion of his background"?

Maybe Drudge or Rush? Dick Cheney?

Nope, your associates here on DU did that.

I understand your confusion, it's difficult to tell the difference when reading those posts.

[liberalmike27]

226. Even If True

I actually admire anyone smart enough to avoid Vietnam, the biggest war about nothing we've ever fought, until Afghanistan and Iraq II.

Bill Clinton pulled strings to get out of the service too.

This whole line of argument, calling people draft-dodgers and such, for not allowing themselves to be drafted in a "free country" is bullcrap anyway, and is a right-wing argument, something you'd more likely hear from a Republican, so it's typical.

[beam me up scottie]

234. That's it exactly.

Everyone here knows the right wing will call Bernie a draft dodger but so-called liberals are supposed to be better than that.

They also claimed he went to Israel and even had his kid to get out of the draft.

Those kinds of attacks are vicious and remind me of how Kerry's patriotism was questioned in 2004.

[beam me up scottie]

61. An op-ed accusing Bernie of draft dodging was posted in this forum.

And more than one HC supporter engaged in the same behaviour.

Go find it yourself, I'm not getting my post hidden for calling out the posters.

[Hortensis]

208. A post. Well, burn, DU, burn.

[beam me up scottie]

210. No, several posts engaging in vile right wing tactics.

But I'm not surprised you won't condemn that kind of rhetoric when it's used against Bernie.

[Hortensis]

247. The usual vague accusations that others are

behaving the way bernistas do, Scottie? The usual shabby right-wing projection tactic: "It's not us, it's them?" "And even if it is us, they're just as bad?"

At least we seem to agree that that "vile right wing tactics" are often imported into this forum.

Now, if you would, please point me to those "several posts." I didn't find any that seem to justify these claims.

[beam me up scottie]

250. So you can get my post hidden? Not a chance. Nice try, though.

You can either take our word for it (because you seem to be the only one who hasn't seen those posts) or you can pretend that your associates are innocent.

Several called him a draft dodger, one claims he had his son to get out of serving and another said he went to Israel to hide.

[Hortensis]

254. FWIW, I never alert on anything. Goodbye.

[zazen]

108. we can't say names, but one said this AM that Sanders wasn't a CO but a "draft dodger" n/t

[Hortensis]

219. That wasn't nice and almost certainly was not

warranted. Far, far, far more of us back then were conscientious objectors than just those felt a need to register it. "Draft dodging" was so common that it wasn't considered an insult but rather a simple reality for families across the nation.

After all, there were so many reasons not to go -- at least for those who felt their duty as citizens was to not unquestioningly accede to authority. Bernie spent those years drifting from occupation to occupation, but we can all be darned sure that, like so many other thoughtful and moral, and sensible, people of his generation, the "himself" he was seeking did not belong in Viet Nam.

[Ernesto]

251. Don't forget warmonger cheney

6 deferments to avoid Nam
I joined the USMC to get out of my "hood", not because I believed in the stinking war!

[beam me up scottie]

252. Chicken hawks, they love war as long as they don't have to go.

Or their kids, let the poor folks send their children to die.

Semper fi.

~ Lance Corporal bmus

[roguevalley]

124. Bill Clinton deferred. not a smart move here. Hillary didn't join and bill shirked. Bernie faced it

C objector status which wasn't a get out of war card at all. Sad.

[fasttense]

116. Two types of people the right wing has declared war against

Anti vietnam war protesters and the poor.

[beam me up scottie]

163. And women, they are still waging war on reproductive rights.

Other minorities too: voting rights, immigrants, lgbt rights, we're all under siege.

It's us against them and when right wing talking points are used here it's difficult to tell the difference.

[KingCharlemagne]

192. And the proletariat in general. - nt

[fasttense]

255. OK, you're right the RepubliCONS have declared war on people

who make easy scapegoats. People who don't have as much money or power to fight back. People who are easily splintered into groups and made to suffer for the uber rich. I guess about the only group RepubliCONS aren't fighting are rich white men.

And yes it is a surprise to see RepubliCON talking points used so frequently here.

[LWolf]

2. Agreed. nt

[Runningdawg]

3. The obvious answer

to this problem is staying at war constantly in order to provide valid candidates for elections. <SMH>

[HerbChestnut]

4. It's sad.

Being a conscientious objector is at the heart of the anti-war movement. Fortunately, my generation has not had to deal with a draft, but I'm sure there would be plenty of CO's. Can you really blame someone for not wanting to fight in a war based on lies and deceit?

[onenote]

18. Here's the rub. Why this hurts Bernie even though it shouldn't

As someone who sought and obtained their CO during the Vietnam War, this is something that I know a little about.

To get a CO during the Vietnam War (and under current law as well), one has to proclaim their opposition to participating in any war, not just a particular war. Bernie's campaign has acknowledged that when he sought his CO, he was indeed a pacifist -- that his objection was not merely to participating in the Vietnam War, but to participating in any war. In that regard, Bernie has my utmost respect. His approach was indeed more honest than those who sought to obtain deferments that they arguably were not entitled to. (But also note that I do not criticize those who took whatever measures, including pulling strings, lying, etc. to avoid service in the Vietnam War -- before I got my CO I explored any number of other options, including getting a medical deferment based on statements provided by an anti-war doctor as well as simply going to Canada).

While I respect Bernie's decision and he has my support, the political reality is that it is not possible in this day and age for an avowed pacifist to get elected president of the United States. It just isn't. Bernie therefore has indicated that while he was a pacifist back in the 60s/70s, he is no longer a pacifist. I accept that as the truth. But convincing the electorate at large will be another thing. It will hurt him, no two ways about it, as much as I think it shouldn't.

[restorefreedom]

21. thanks for sharing

a very personal story. bernie's long time support of veterans, as well as his willingness to sanction some military action, including after 911, hopefully will assuage the fears of indys and crossovers.

rw nutjobs would never vote for him anyway, so anyone who tries to portray him as a hippie draft dodger is already lost imo.

[onenote]

42. I think that is right

Or at least I hope so. Most voters who would hold this against Bernie probably wouldn't be voting for him in the General anyway. I don't think it should be an issue in the primary, although I can't say for certain that it won't be.

[restorefreedom]

80. its not really a primary issue i agree

not a ge issue either except for rw nutjobs

[reACTIONary]

142. Electability is a legitimate concern for primary voters. eom

[cui bono]

150. Which is why I feel good about voting for Sanders and wish everyone would do so.

If Hillary wins the nom we have a good chance of losing the general.

.

[reACTIONary]

248. Especially given current events , ...

..... Bernie's status as a CO and former pacifist and his vote against the IWR would be detremental in the GE. To have voted for it and then to call that vote a mistake is, ironically, a stronger position in the GE. And no one will ever accuse HRC of being a pacifist

Bernie has a lot of perceptual negativity to overcome - CO / pacifist & socialist. Those aren't going to be helpful in the GE, and they are limiting even in the primary .

[cui bono]

253. I completely disagree with that. Hillary is the one who will lose in the general.

Bernie will pull in so many voters who will stay home if they have to choose Hillary or some GOP clown.

Bernie is electrifying the country. Him being a CO is a plus. He stands by his principles, he stands up to TPTB. People love that about him. He's authentic, he's the real deal. It's been a long time since we've had that. Obama seemed like he would be the real deal but as soon as he was sworn in he showed his true colors with his Wall Street appointments.

.

[reACTIONary]

256. I think your personal opinions and...

.... assessments may be a bit outside the mainstream . We will see .

[cascadiance]

22. The problem is that these "rules" tell people how they should think...

... even if they are trying to take a principled position against being involved in a war. For some as pacifists, they feel that no war is justified. Those were the only group that this law catered to. For some it was they were objecting to wars that weren't about defending our country from attacks from others, or some other variant of that.

Ideally, what would be best for conscripted government service is if people had the option to participate in mandatory non-military government service as well. Then everyone could be compelled to serve their country, but perhaps if the case can't be made for a war not being about defending our country directly (or perhaps being part of a joint effort endorsed by the United Nations, etc.), then it would make it harder for the MIC to get our country's leaders to be involved in wars they shouldn't be in.

[BlueMTexpat]

37. I certainly agree that Bernie's seeking CO status

deserves respect. Like you, I do not criticize any who took the measures you described to obtain deferments, whether they were strictly eligible for them or not. Those who rightfully deserve my wrath are those who got deferments/National Guard slots for themselves but had absolutely no qualms about sending US troops to Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., e.g., those like W. Bush and Cheney.

In the 1960s, I (a female) was a Peace Corps Volunteer and most of my male PCV colleagues were hoping that the Vietnam conflict would be resolved by the time that their PCV service was over.

Of course, it wasn't resolved by 1966, which is when our service ended. One, a Quaker, had CO status, but had to serve several years as an RA at a juvenile detention facility as a substitute. Another was drafted but had the very good fortune to be returned to perform his military service in Morocco, where we all had performed our volunteer service. Some others performed their military service in Vietnam and returned safely. A couple others re-upped for more years of PCV service, hoping to wait the war out, and I lost track of them. And yes, there were also a very few who fled to Canada. Those who did not live through those years do not realize what it was like then.

I also concur with your analysis. The political reality is unfair. But it is as you say.

[Paka]

115. This says it the best...

"Those who did not live through those years do not realize what it was like then."

[KingCharlemagne]

194. Don't forget the illustrious Dan Quayle in your roster that shall live in infamy. Daniel Ellsbeg

noted in his autobiorgraphy Secrets that we won't have ended the war in Vietnam truly until we erect a monument on the Mall to those who opposed the war. I'm not holding my beath that such a monument will be erected in my lifetime but, when it is, surely Sanders' name will be high up on its roster, right alongside the names of Norman Morrison and the Berrigan brothers.

[BlueMTexpat]

201. Thanks for the addition.

"roster than shall live in infamy" - love it!

[SandersDem]

91. Keep this in mind however

but first, completely respect where you are coming from here. As a teen facing Vietnam, I wrestled with just what I would do here. Thankfully, I did not have to make that decision as I fell into the gap between the lottery and registration.

This is what should be kept in mind re CO

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

Article 18 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, United Nations

I can see why there could be a question regarding Bernie and his positions. There are some inconsistencies in his record on these issues. (Kosovo, Votes for funding for Iraq and Afghanistan: even those can largely be seen as in support of troops already deployed).

I believe that Kosovo was humanitarian in nature and is the only recorded war in our countries history that did not sacrifice a single American life. (I do recognize there was a high cost to life itself, the question is was that sacrifice worth it to save more lives over time? ...kind of an atom bomb theory, I know)

I am not making excuses for Bernie's votes on this, but of every person running for President, based on his lifetime record and being absolutely prescient on Iraq and other issues, my trust goes to him to do the right thing as a Commander in Chief. The next closest comparison you could even conceivable make on this, is Rand Paul and my politics just do not move in that direction at all.

[stupidicus]

105. he voted for the afghan war, didn't he?

game over

That's the biggest blemish on his record imo

[JI7]

121. Sanders record in office shows he is not a pacifist .he rarely goes after Clinton

On war issues. He is pretty similar to Obama on defense issues.

[daleanime]

5. Don't worry.....

there's plenty of time for them to go lower.

[99th_Monkey]

6. Lame attacks R-US at Camp Clinton. nt

[George II]

29. I wonder why the OP couldn't be specific about such "attacks". Perhaps because they haven't....

....occurred?

[beam me up scottie]

31. Are you accusing cali of lying?

Or are you trying to get her to post a link in the op so it will get hidden?

[HoneychildMooseMoss]

51. That is the person who was bragging about trying to get Cali's posts hidden

on That Website Which Shall Not Be Named

[beam me up scottie]

54. Yep, and if cali posts a link it will be alerted on as a callout.

Anyone who really wants to know can search the term "draft dodger" in this forum and they'll find it.

[cali]

41. Right here on the front page of GDP and not for the first time

Find it yourself.

[99th_Monkey]

44. Thank you,

I hadn't seen said post, but knew you knew what you were talking about

[George II]

88. I don't think anyone has seen it. As a matter of fact, when talking to and corresponding to....

....Clinton supporters and some in the campaign, there has been a concerted effort to NOT bring that up since in 2015 being a CO is a non-issue.

[zazen]

109. This AM, a regular pro-Clinton poster said Sanders wasn't a CO but a "draft dodger" (i.e, criminal)

[George II]

46. I see one single OP from back on September 1. None before and none since.

[cali]

56. Look. It's a thread with over 100 responses at the top of the page.

[cui bono]

151. Just stop already.

We all know you want to prod cali into a hide, we've seen the screenshot of you bragging about it on the hate site.

Grow up and knock it off. Discuss the issues already.

.

[cali]

164. aww, how cute.

[beam me up scottie]

174. Good for you for not falling into the trap.

I'm sure some folks were disappointed.

[H2O Man]

231. Thank you.

[cali]

62. Your attempts to get my posts hidden has been noted by many

Last edited Wed Dec 30, 2015, 07:16 AM - Edit history (1)

No link for you.

[H2O Man]

232. "missing links"

often appear on DU.

[davidpdx]

155. Yes they did, stick a sock in it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955465

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955295

[iandhr]

7. People here have used the term draft dodger to call out Republicans.

It would be hypocritical to not hold friends to the same standers one could agree.


I am just playing devils advocate.

[HerbChestnut]

13. There is a difference

between being a CO and using connections to get yourself out of being drafted. One is taking a principled stand for what you believe in, the other is taking advantage of privilege.

[iandhr]

19. Agreed

Hence what I meant by devils advocate.

[cui bono]

152. What some call being devil's advocate others might call... um...

well I will not say it for I might get a hide. But you weren't playing devil's advocate if you knew what you were saying was not a valid argument. So your thinly veiled post is quite transparent.

Why do people have to play such games all the time. Can't you just straight up discuss issues?

.

[beam me up scottie]

171. Some are even implying he tried to avoid being drafted by going to a kibbutz in Israel.

[onenote]

48. As someone who obtained a CO, i have no problem with those that found other ways to avoid service

The reality is that most people who sought COs probably didn't really qualify for them. To qualify you had to declare your opposition to participation in any war on religious and ethical grounds. You could not get a CO if your opposition was limited to the Vietnam War or was based on political considerations. Since you couldn't get a CO without saying the right things, even those who didn't really oppose all wars, whose opposition was specific to the Vietnam War and/or political, said the right things. Is that principled? I don't really care. They did what they needed to do. And other did what they needed to do, whether it was getting an anti-war doctor to help them get a medical deferment, or getting a family friend to get them into ROTC, or applied for college in Canada, or any of a number of other "tricks" that those of us trying to avoid serving in that conflict knew about and often were advised to employ.

The only line I draw is not based on how one avoided service. It is whether one simultaneously was a public opponent of the war or was a hypocrite that avoided service but espoused support for the war.

[BlueMTexpat]

53. Spot on. eom

[KingCharlemagne]

195. Mitt Romney satisfies the conditions spelled out in your last sentence. There are

photographs of him demonstrating against anti-war protesters at Stanford. But when it was Mitt's turn to serve, his Mormon 'mission' conveniently came along in the nick of time to save his hypocritical, privileged ass.

[Divernan]

118. Bill Clinton used an amazing & lengthy series of connections.

Snopes documents Slick Willie's YEARS of deception/manipulation to dodge the draft. You really have to read the whole, voluminous documentation at the link below, to grasp the number of lies he told, the promises he broke, the way he manipulated and tricked his local draft board - incredibly huge, tone deaf, foot-in-mouth mistake for Hillary's supporters to try to play this card.

That Bill Clinton went to great lengths to avoid the Vietnam-era draft, that he used political connections to obtain special favors, and that he made promises and commitments which he later failed to honor, are all beyond dispute.

Although what he did may not have been against the law, Clinton's broken promises and contradictory statements about his efforts to avoid the draft were prime examples of the kind of self-serving doublespeak that later earned him the sobriquet "Slick Willie." As Maraniss concluded in his Clinton biography, First in His Class:

"It was just a fluke," Clinton would say decades later, when first asked how he had made it through this period without serving in the military. But of course it was not a fluke. A fluke is a wholly accidental stroke of good luck. What happened to Clinton during that fateful year did not happen by accident. He fretted and planned every move, he got help from others when needed, he resorted to some deception or manipulation when necessary, and he was ultimately lucky.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/felon.asp

[onenote]

227. And I say more power to him.

Sorry, but if I had those connections I would have used them. Instead I used whatever I did have -- draft counselors that directed me to anti-war doctors and who gave me advice that allowed me to postpone my physical. At one point I considered enrolling in College in Canada -- something I would have been able to do because my family had the resources to pay for me to do so. Ultimately, my CO (which was pending when I was called for a physical) was granted. And, as it turned out, despite having a low number, the wind-down of the war meant that I wouldn't have been sent overseas in any event.

[Divernan]

228. But NO war-making power to his faux hero wife.

And doesn't it piss you off that Hillary's supporters on DU are trashing Bernie for not fighting in Vietnam? Because they are pissing all over other conscientious objectors like you. I've got no problem with what you did - my kid brother was ready to head for Canada, but lucked out with a very high draft number - something like 320!

What bothers me is the Hill supporters on DU latching on to the CO issue as a way to trash Bernie. It's along the lines of HRC coming out swinging against hedge fund managers, at the same time her own son-in-law progressed from being a hedge fund trader to starting up and owning his very own hedge fund.

Reuters is reporting this morning that Hillary Clinton came out swinging against hedge fund managers by comparing their salaries to kindergarten teachers.

“Speaking to about 60 supporters at a house party in Iowa, Clinton said “the deck is still stacked in favor of those at the top” like chief executives and hedge fund managers.

“In fact, I heard a statistic the other day that really made a big impact on me. The top 25 hedge fund managers together make more money than all the kindergarten teachers in America,” she said.

Clinton, the Democratic front-runner for the presidential nomination in 2016, has previously criticized hedge fund managers as examples of the income disparity she says she wants to end.

- See more at: http://apicciano.commons.gc.cuny.edu/2015/05/19/hillary-clinton-top-25-hedge-fund-managers-make-more-money-than-all-kindergarten-teachers-in-america/#sthash.5l9TD4mJ.dpuf

As to my faux hero description of HRC, she lied about having to dodge sniper fire and she did so for political gain.

And she voted to keep cluster bombs as approved for use in civilian areas.

She jokes and laughs about an extra-legal military assassination.

She's a MIC $hill & war hawk. So, if you please, make it clear that you can say more power to Bill for avoiding Vietnam, but that does not translate to more war-making power to Hillary.

Bottom line - sure, apply for CO status rather than die for the blood-soaked profits of the MIC.

[rhett o rick]

113. We are quick to point out hypocracy of anyone that is a war hawk but failed to go themeslves.

I applaud all that dodged the draft during the Viet Nam War.

[H2O Man]

233. Perfect answer!

Thank you for this!

[MisterP]

8. but Clinton's a Devil Dog! that little Canuck can't compare!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. I admire him for it. And, as a draft counselor, during the VN war I advised people to do the same.

In fact I told the lads to take any legal route they could to avoid the draft.

Note: My counseling was more in the way of moral support than any real knowledge about draft law. I soon gave it up to more knowledgeable folks and went back to the usual protests and class disruptions. Also, I had already put in my four years of insanity and was in no danger of being drafted myself.

[Scuba]

11. Incredibly lame. Something I would (and do) expect from Republicans, but not Democrats.

[winter is coming]

12. I actually find it strangely encouraging.

Consider how old you have to be to give two shits about Vietnam.

Either the Clinton campaign doesn't know how to reach the under-60 crowd or they're afraid of losing voters from the over-60 one.

[Juicy_Bellows]

25. 60 is about right.

Interesting point. I am a bit younger and the part of that war I always gravitate to is the Gulf of Tonkin incident lest we forget.

Cheers.

[MisterP]

27. that's also why they're red-baiting: 1. Clinton's from the Kirkpatrick/Scoop Jackson wing of the

party, which switched to Reagan because he'd wanted to stay in Vietnam
2. generation gap--dogwhistles like "Yaroslavl" or "draft dodger" or "Canadian" had currency when these senators and secretaries were growing up in the 60s, and they figure that they can at least spread FUD among the older Dems

as late as 1994 tinpot regimes blamed Soviet agents when they put tanks on the streets to "preempt" supposed unrest (usually when the parliament was warming up investigations)

[George II]

30. The fact is that the "Clinton campaign" hasn't made any such attacks.

[cali]

166. And no one said it did, my dear friend. Clinton fans on DU have

[Cali_Democrat]

66. Has the Clinton campaign said anything about Bernie's status during Vietnam?

[artislife]

125. Reading any of your posts on this

is very laughabe, indeed.


actually more guffaw

[Hekate]

131. That's your answer? Good grief.

[davidpdx]

156. A Clinton supporter on DU did

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955295

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955465

[stillwaiting]

14. When the Clinton camp attacks Bernie it almost always feels like a Republican attack. nt

[Romulox]

16. It shows how many "ex" Republicans, tax-objectors, and all around Rightwingers nest here. nt

[BlueCheese]

17. I see a lot of accusations in this thread that the Clinton camp has attacked Sanders on this.

Have they? Are you talking about the campaign itself, or a few isolated supporters here and there?

[George II]

32. It's just red meat thrown out there to see the feeding frenzy on this non-existent "attack".

[R B Garr]

148. Exactly, just the typical dramatic efforts to take things out

of context so Sanders looks victimized. It's nothing but red meat.

Someone posted an article today from an Iowan Vietnam Vet about Bernie's CO status. Iowa is a caucus state. All eyes are on Iowa. It's really as simple as that, but of course Bill Clinton is erroneously drug into it and framed to benefit Bernie because the rest of the time here he is savaged by these same people.

The phoniness of it all gets irritating.

[beam me up scottie]

154. Except you claimed Bernie didn't run for president sooner because of his "draft dodger status":

R B Garr

33. OMG. Bernie didn't run for President sooner
because of how the draft dodger status would have

followed him around. Luckily, Bill Clinton had the guts to tackle that stigma and lessen its impact ---- TWENTY FIVE YEARS ago. So Bill did the opposite of what you are claiming. He refused to be tarred by it. But it is laughable you trot Bill out if you think it helps Bernie; otherwise, he's under the bus.

More laughable that the new-found Trump advocates complain about RW talking points.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=955620

So there's that.

Still waiting for proof of that claim, by the way.

[R B Garr]

193. Except you're just using that as an excuse to avoid

answering why Bernie didn't challenge Clinton in 1992 or 1996. Explain that.

Once you explain that, you'll have answered your own phony requests for "proof".

C'mon. Now is your chance to explain why BS did not run for President in the following elections:

1976

1980

1984

1988

1992

1996

2000

2004

2008

2012

C'mon and give your best estimate as to why Bernie failed to throw his hat in the ring.

[beam me up scottie]

196. I have no idea. Now where's the evidence backing up your bizarre allegation?

I've been waiting and so far you failed to back up your um..."theory".

[R B Garr]

197. Give your reasons why Bernie didn't run for President

in the following years. You're the Bernie fan

1976

1980

1984

1988

1992

1996

2000

2004

2008

2012

[beam me up scottie]

198. I said I don't know. Now back up your bizarre theory.

Where did you come up with something so out there it belongs in Creative Speculation?

[R B Garr]

203. Now confusion. Typical. Just yesterday.you were

an expert on RW draft dodging smears, now you have no idea. Amazing how that works.

[beam me up scottie]

204. No others are also confused by your claim, why can't you back it up?

Did you just make it all up as an excuse to smear Bernie and call him a draft dodger?

Because that's what it looks like.

You don't want people to think you're that low do you?

I sure wouldn't want to be known for prevaricating or making up weird conspiracy theories.

[R B Garr]

209. You and 'others" can answer your own questions.

Have them help you. Why didn't Bernie run for President in the following elections:

1976

1980

1984

1988

1992

1996

2000

2004

2008

2012

And I have to LOL that it was obvious this whole thread was to wave around "right wing draft dodger smears" as a way to attack other posters. So predictable.

[beam me up scottie]

211. Actually the burden of proof is on the conspiracy theorist.

They never seem to grasp that concept.

You don't have proof so it's obvious you made it all up.

Since you admitted it we can all move on now.

[R B Garr]

212. Bernie's record isn't a conspiracy. You post about it

all the time. Remember?

[beam me up scottie]

214. Glad to see you're admitting you made up the theory. Now you can move on.

It's always rough when your finally realise you can't bluff your way through an argument but you'll be okay.

Your bizarre "BERNIE DIDNT RUN FOR PREZ BEFORE CUZ HE'S A DRAFT DODGER" conspiracy theory was fun while it lasted though.

It's one for the records!

[R B Garr]

216. Glad to see you're not saying Bernie's record is

a conspiracy. Whew. It looked like that's where you were going for awhile, which would have been good for at least another 500 pretend posts. Right? Right.

And do contact that Vietnam Vet in Iowa to ask him why he wrote an article about Bernie's CO status. Share his answers with your so-called "others" who are concerned.

[beam me up scottie]

217. BERNIE DIDNT RUN FOR PREZ BEFORE CUZ HE'S A DRAFT DODGER!

That one's a laugh riot. So much logic fail in one theory.

[R B Garr]

218. Bernie has a record. A Vietnam Vet in Iowa

wrote about his CO status which is part of his record. Remember? You've posted about it several hundred times already since the article was linked here.
He has a theory about Bernie's CO status. It's not a conspiracy for people to talk about a candidate's record. That Veteran doesn't need proof of his.opinion. The proof is that Bernie did apply for CO status.

What's so much FAIL about your emotional misrepresentations is that Clinton DID run for President and he fought through the draft dodger stigma. Yet Bernie never bothered. Any ideas why?

[beam me up scottie]

220. I'm talking about your bizarre theory, the veterans I know don't have a problem with COs.

The only people calling him a draft dodger here are Hillary supporters, which is yet another HUGE logic fail since Bill was accused of the same thing.

The latest hillaryous installment of the I Hate Bernie Brigade's newest wanna-be scandal reminds me of this song:

[R B Garr]

224. Haha, cartoons and sidestepping into the main purpose,

which is to attack posters here. Just like I predicted. And take everything out of context as much as possible for the DRAMA. And Beatles songs now!

The FACT that Bill Clinton fought through the RW draft dodger talking points TWENTY FIVE YEARS AGO makes your "concerns" fall flat on their face. I supported Bill Clinton, and so did the majority of people who voted for him. Twenty-five years ago. So much for your petty and fabricated claims that Hillary supporters don't support "draft dodgers". LOL. The results themselves show otherwise.

Yet, Bernie hasn't run for office, so it's his record people are talking about. I've said many times that Bill Clinton paved the way for people like Bernie who didn't tackle those roadblocks back in the day. Many of those blocks were insurmountable. Remember? Its not a conspiracy to recall the REALITY of the roadblocks: family values, military service, etc. There was a time Ronald Reagan was considered a risk as a candidate because of his divorce and Family Values.

I haven't seen many people here complaining about Bernie's CO status except for one and he backed up his reasons. Obviously people have moral objections to Hillary, which you have no problem with, but some will have moral objections to Bernie. That's life.

[beam me up scottie]

229. Beatles songs?

Logical fallacies, whacky conspiracy theories, an accusation of draft dodging coupled with an extreme irony deficiency, and now the inability to tell one hugely successful 60s rock group from another.

Please keep going, you just can't buy this kind of entertainment.

[R B Garr]

235. You declaring yourself the winner is the logical fallacy.

HILARIOUS!

You posting cartoons is a logical fallacy. I didn't really give a crap what group you posted, but it obviously matters greatly to you. Don't give a crap about your cartoons either, but I see you posted something childish.

Yes, all SO hilarious!

[beam me up scottie]

236. You failed to back up your claim so yes, you lost the debate. It's not a difficult concept.

You declaring yourself a winner is the logical fallacy.

You psting cartoons is a logical fallacy.

I didn't really give a crap what group you posted, but it obviously matters greatly to you. Don't give Ia crap about your cartoons either, but I see you posted something childish.

[R B Garr]

237. You have failed to answer the following:

What stopped Sanders from running for President in the following years:

1976

1980

1984

1988

1992

1996

2000

2004

2008

2012

Just give it your best guess. You spam threads with his record but are soooooo stumped by this that you keep posting childish cartoons. Amazing.

[beam me up scottie]

238. Um because of his...how did you put it..."draft dodger status"?

That's your theory and who am I to argue with such impeccable logic?

[R B Garr]

240. Explain why Bernie didn't run for President in the

following years:

1976

1980

1984

1988

1992

1996

2000

2004

2008

2012

Explain what the RW draft dodger attacks meant to a candidate's national viability. Explain how you knew about them to attack another poster here, but now not so much.

[beam me up scottie]

241. More logic fail and word salad. What does this mean?:

Explain what the RW draft dodger attacks meant to a candidate's national viability. Explain how you knew about them to attack another poster here, but now not so much.

It's amazing, I've never seen such a capacity for bizarro speak.

Do you have a generator for that?

[R B Garr]

242. Ah, the word salad straw man again.

Right on schedule. You threw that in about the same time yesterday. You do like to recycle your little personal attack ditties.

[beam me up scottie]

243. Straw man? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

"attack dittys"?

Didn't Diddy attack a coach with a kettle bell?

This is performance art, right?

It has to be.

BRAVO!

[R B Garr]

244. You do realize you are basically talking to yourself.

I just prompt you now and then in a different direction and off you go. Simple, but funny.

[beam me up scottie]

245. It is performance art, I knew it! No one could be that logic challenged.

Whew, you had me going there, I'll admit.

[R B Garr]

246. Ah, recycling in the 'ol "logic" ditty again.

More self-talk, I see.

[davidpdx]

157. Two article were posted by the same person

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955465

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955295

When anyone dares question Queen Hillary they get called a hater. Maybe the other side should look in the mirror to see who is being over dramatic.

[beam me up scottie]

158. Says who? Several Hillary supporters accused Bernie of being a draft dodger.

Just because you didn't see the posts doesn't mean the op is lying.

The thread is still in the front page of this forum and has well over 100 replies.

I find it odd that you're the only one who can't see it.

[ljm2002]

20. It really is hilarious isn't it...

...but if they want to go after Sanders on this, they're going to get a backlash. If Bernie Sanders does not get a pass, then Bill Clinton doesn't either. And Bill and Hillary are a "twofer" by their own proclamations, so it really is difficult to separate a couple when they're joined at the hip like that...

[A Simple Game]

83. Breaking News!!! Hillary and Bill are in a trial separation.

Hillary tells her supporters not to worry and that they will probably be back together when the media quit talking about Bernie's CO status. Barring that they may get back together after the focus group meets this weekend(they can't meet during the week because two of them are young enough to still have jobs), so please be patient. But until she gets the all clear from the media and/or the focus group, she can't be associated with a draft dodging pacifist.

P.S. to all supporters: Please hold all talk about a twofer Presidency until you get the all clear.

[blackspade]

23. This is fucking laughable.

Whoever is trying to push this crap is a fucking idiot.
Pathetic.

But no one here at DU would bite on this stupid shit....Right?

[deutsey]

24. Is this even a fricking thing?

[lark]

26. Shit, Bush actively avoided actually serving in the war.

I haven't seen any Hillary supporters attacking Bernie for this, to me it makes him more electable, but know I'm not very mainstream at all. I'm also supporting Bernie over Hillary, but still check out DU almost every day for at least a few minutes and haven't seen this.

[George II]

28. Where and when has anyone attacked Sanders for being a CO?

[BlueMTexpat]

47. I don't think that anyone is really

interested in replying to your questions. I haven't seen any attacks on Bernie about this from the Clinton campaign at all.

As for Hillary supporters attacking him for this, it would be nice if at least one DU Hillary supporter could be found to show that this really is happening. Otherwise, it's just more created poutrage.

[davidpdx]

159. Sure it is poutrage

Cali won't post the links but I sure as hell will because I don't give a shit if a Hillary supporter is so sensitive when they get called out. There is your poutrage.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955295

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955465

[cali]

167. Thanks, David. I love frustrating those who are trying to get me banned.

[BlueMTexpat]

199. Thanks for finally posting some links. eom

[R B Garr]

34. Again with the laughable mischaracterizations.

Face it. You all just want to wave "right wing talking point" around to deflect from Bernie appealing to Trump's tea baggers.

And the hypocrisy is stunning that you all throw Bill Clinton under the bus until he comes in useful for Bernie. Clinton already handled his business with this TWENTY FIVE YEARS ago. He paved the way for it to be a limited issue for Bernie. You should be thanking him for having the guts to deal with this decades sgo instead of this ridiculous grousing.

[cali]

60. Lol. Your mind reading skills seriously suck.

Oh and I threw Bill under the bus 20 years ago, dear.

[R B Garr]

111. Dear? Is that how you convince yourself of your

phony superiority?

And LAUGH, I didn't read your mind. Just your disjointed OP. Very little of what you post is taken in proper context, which is further obvious from your replies.

Bill Clinton figured out how to handle the draft dodger questions TWENTY YEARS AGO. I'm sure BS can be a grown man and figure it out for himself. No need to drag Bill Clinton into it.

[cali]

168. Do invest in a dictionary.

[R B Garr]

257. Invest in one yourself. Look up phony baloney because

that's your bloated bullshit thread premise.

How ridiculous to not even see that both Clinton and Sanders did not serve in Vietnam --- for whatever reason or circumstance. Yet Clinton overcame the stigma TWENTY-FIVE YEARS AGO.

So how silly can you get to say that Clinton supporters are against Bernie for being a draft dodger when they elected one TWENTY-FIVE YEARS AGO.

But that doesnt stop you from starting a whisper campaign from something you misunderstood. It's childish and unrealistic to think no one will ever talk about Bernie's record. Now Vietnam Veterans are being thrown under the bus because one dared to question Bernie's past. That article was from a Veteran in Iowa.

Get a dictionary yourself, whatever the hell that means.

[NCTraveler]

35. My question is and has been...

How do millennials view this compared to my generation. I have a feeling if Sanders wasn't currently going scorched earth it would be an excellent discussion here. Unfortunately, the question I posed was simply ignored for the most part. Ohh the days of du when discussions were about how sick racists are, not how we can bring them into the fold. The days when discussing the possible different thoughts between generations was acceptable.

Nope. Outrage is set at ten.

[davidpdx]

160. Look at who is stirring shit....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955465

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955295

[NCTraveler]

165. The Des Moines Register...

And Salon?

Have you seen how many articles have been posted here from libertarian and Pual supporter Goodman.

[beam me up scottie]

170. Goodman? Wait, didn't you rec a thread linking to racist tea party website progressivestoday?

And also a thread linking to a tea party website owned by a Holocaust denier?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251876329

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251941346

And you're complaining about threads linking to Goodman's articles at HuffPo?

[NCTraveler]

172. Complete deflection on your part, as usual.

That is about all that's left.

[beam me up scottie]

173. You were discussing articles from questionable sources, weren't you?

That makes your choice to rec those threads fair game.

[NCTraveler]

175. If that's your thing.

Have at it. Big smiles today BMUS.

[beam me up scottie]

176. If you brought it up how is it my thing?

Have a nice day!

[NCTraveler]

177. I get it.

Salon? Bad
Des Moinse Register? Bad
Goodman? Good

I'm good with your thought and need to share that. Truly happy that you have a journalist to admire. Your thing. Have at it.

[beam me up scottie]

179. No you don't, obviously. I never said any of that. Here, let me help you:

Salon: good

HuffPo: good

progressivestoday - racist tea party website: bad

tomatobubble - racist tea party website owned by Holocaust denier: bad

[NCTraveler]

182. I get it.

Something about a plane.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251953352

And I'm glad you are ok with the sources the individual who was questioning me took issue with. I agree that they are fine to post here. Complete agreement. Love it.

[beam me up scottie]

183. What are you on about now? Why the continued deflection?

Either you believe links to racist websites are acceptable on DU or not.

It's simple: if you don't agree with right wing sources being cited here don't rec those threads.

[NCTraveler]

184. Awesome.

What do you think about the Jackson endorsement? Love the guy.

[beam me up scottie]

186. I don't follow celebrities but I'm sure it's as important as the Kardashians' endorsement.

How nice for you I guess.

Now do you agree that right wing sources shouldn't be cited here?

If not maybe you should check those websites again.

[NCTraveler]

187. Yes, I really like the endorsement.

Sweet.

Do you think EW will endorse Clinton after Super Tuesday or do you think she will give a great speech at the convention to rally and unify the small amount of support that currently isn't backing Clinton?

I think these endorsements are pretty big.

And no, I've never really been into the right wing Racist Paul or his super fan Goodman.

[beam me up scottie]

188. More deflection, well I guess that's my answer.

Some folks care about important issues and others care about scoring cheap points on the internet and celebrity endorsements.

[NCTraveler]

189. You have yet to bring up a campaign issue here.

You just jumped in to deflect from my response to another poster. I'm simply following your lead. In the same fashion I will ask you this. What are your thoughts on racist Paul's super fan Goodman?

Noticed you also glossed over the question about endorsements we were discussing.

[beam me up scottie]

190. Important campaign issues like your ops about pot smoking hippies in Vermont and draft dodgers?

[NCTraveler]

191. The dirty fucking hippies were right.

And I really don't think draft dodging is an issue these days. For the first time in a long time we have a small group of voters who have parents born after the last draft. They are that removed from its realities. A truly beautiful thing.

[Sunlei]

36. Sanders has always been a man of Peace, for me that is a huge positive for a President.

I think President Obama is also a man of Peace, tries diplomacy before starting wars. Mrs. Clinton IMO, is more old school. I don't think she would try as hard as President O or Bernie Sanders to avoid 'new' wars.

[WillyT]

38. K & R !!!

[Ferd Berfel]

39. THe more Bernie grows in this race, the greater and more diabolical the attacks will be.

Like this morning on MSNBC when O'Mally and Howard Dean LIED about Bernie on the air!

The Oligarchy is getting scared! And this is dangerous for Bernie.

[ucrdem]

40. Um, there's no there there. nt

[Doctor_J]

45. You can't really tell much difference between hillarians and republicans any more

Little difference between hrc and JEB!, little difference between her supporters and limbeciles.

[BlueMTexpat]

49. Wow. Just wow. eom

[bvar22]

94. Absolutely.

15 Fundamental Differences Between Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, and The Republicans:


1. Sanders has served as an elected official for over 34 years. Clinton & most Republicans have not.

2. Sanders has supported gay rights since 40 years ago. Clinton and Republicans have not.

3. Sanders wants to end the prohibition of marijuana. Clinton & The Republicans do not.

4. Sanders wants to end the death penalty. Clinton and Th Republicans do not.

5. Sanders wants to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Clinton and the Republicans do not.

6. Sanders wants to break up the biggest banks. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

7. Sanders voted against the Wall Street bailout. Clinton and the Republicans (and too many "Democrats) did not.

8. Sanders introduced legislation to overturn Citizens United. Clinton and The Republicans did not.

9. Sanders refuses to accept money from super PACs. Clinton and the Republicans do not.

10. Sanders supports a single-payer healthcare system. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

11. Sanders refrains from waging personal attacks for political gains. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

12. Sanders considers climate change our nation's biggest threat. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

13. Sanders opposed the Keystone XL Pipeline since day one. Clinton and the Republicans do not.

14. Sanders voted against the Patriot Act. Clinton and the Republicans did not.

15. Sanders voted against the war in Iraq. Clinton and The Republicans did not.


Hillary sure seems to agree with Republicans a lot.
I don't,
that is why I am a Democrat, and voting for a Democrat....Bernie!

[Doctor_J]

98. Thanks. I posted a pic version of this last night. yours is more up to date. It explains, as

clear as day, why I won't vote for her, and have no respect for anyone who does. I can't understand why her supporters don't just vote republican.

[bvar22]

100. I may have stolen your post.

I copied something like this, and added "and The Republicans" to the end of each line.

It was on my Word Pad at the end of the day without the link, so I couldn't find the attribution.
IF it was you, sorry.
If it was someone else, sorry again about the missing attribution.
I DID change the wording some, but I still stole it.

[hobbit709]

180. The alert brigade tried again.

On Wed Dec 30, 2015, 06:25 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Thanks. I posted a pic version of this last night. yours is more up to date. It explains, as
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=957262

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

accusing supporters of another candidate of being Republican.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Dec 30, 2015, 07:06 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Bernie supporters are always causing trouble on this sight. You go into protected groups and post personal attacks but the moment we say something against bernie you all get emotional. Enough
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[KingCharlemagne]

200. Juror #6 is a real piece of work. He or she needs to bone up on his or her spelling,

grammar and usage: 'site' (not 'sight').

[SammyWinstonJack]

146. That's a very damning list. Not good for the non wealthy

Unless we elect Bernie, we're so screwn.

[jkbRN]

52. Yeah

I wouldn't go serve in a war based on bullshit. People need to get a grip.

[RandySF]

55. Can someone point out such attack?

[cali]

57. Right on the front page of GDP.

[RandySF]

65. An unfortunate column from the Register along with a question

Not unusual in GE-P.

[cali]

69. Oh please. Don't be disingenuous

[davidpdx]

161. Yep

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955295

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251955465

[treestar]

59. I would not attack him for it, but the right wing would

Since you insist he is going to win, best to be prepared.

[Enthusiast]

63. What possible purpose did the Vietnam War serve anyway? Like Iraq and Afghanistan, Vietnam

achieved absolutely nothing for this nation, not one net positive.

All Vietnam did was enrich the war profiteers and cause the suffering or death of millions. And the fuckers that caused all this suffering never have to answer for their horrible judgment.

Instead lowlife assholes try to shame a man that took the correct course of action, one of the relatively few that took the correct course.

This is a true measure of how competitive Bernie is in this race. This stinks of desperation.

[KingCharlemagne]

68. Well it did lead to some great music, fiction and poetry. I suppose

that is a Felix culpa type of benefit though.

[KingCharlemagne]

64. I'm not seeing this. Can you please provide a link to the

Last edited Tue Dec 29, 2015, 05:36 PM - Edit history (1)

post in question?

[cali]

73. it's right on the front page here.

[KingCharlemagne]

103. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it on the Home Page or

Front Page. Maybe it has dropped off?

I checked on both my LG Tablet and on a Toshiba Laptop running Firefox.

[beam me up scottie]

106. It's in this forum and has Vietnam in the title.

[Duval]

67. K&R.

[Nonhlanhla]

70. I agree

This Hillary supporter completely agrees. Bernie Sanders might not be my candidate, but I have tons of respect for him, and I respect someone who objected to that war.

[Freddie Stubbs]

72. He hasn't adequately explained why he has changed his mind on being a Conscientious Objector

[thesquanderer]

74. I'm not sure we can assume...

...that the people who attack Sanders over this were any happier with Bill Clinton and/or Mitt Romney. It's only hypocrisy if the same person felt differently about this depending on the candidate, which is not necessarily the case. (Unless you know otherwise?)

[beam me up scottie]

75. When it's a Hillary supporter doing it you have to wonder what they're thinking.

[madokie]

76. 15 month in country Vietnam Vet here

and the people who went to Canada or were CO are my favorites. One of my best friends brother went to Canada. After the second tour of duty to Vietnam and when they were going to send him the third time he simply went north. When Jimmy Carter gave him amnesty, he simply said no thanks. I'll stay here where I am. My friends brother Jimmy has no intention of ever coming back to America.

Me, I was in country no more that a few days, 10 at most when I realized what we were doing there was wrong, wrong wrong.

[KingCharlemagne]

205. While I deeply respect the sacrifices of those who emigrated or received CO status (and alternative

service, if I'm remembering correctly), I reserve my highest respect and honor for those who went to jail rather than serve or those, like Norman Morrison, who sacrificed their lives in the cause of a greater justice. I have mixed feelings about those who saw what it was really like over there and deserted to the NLF or NVA forces. A part of me respects them, I guess. Desertion is so fraught with all this emotional baggage that it's difficult for me to discern whether desertion was a moral course of action. I will be watching the case of Bowie Bergdahl very carefully.

I really like your post. Hope you get a chance to read Tim O'Brien's Going After Cacciato.

.

[jtuck004]

77. Vs people who, comparatively, exhibit vanishingly little conscience. Not even a contest. n/t

[tishaLA]

78. i'm glad i haven't seen this

Because it would really piss me the fuck off if I had.

[MellowDem]

79. And Hillary has no say...

her privilege as a woman kept her from ever having to make that choice at all.

[RandySF]

81. Mope. No sexism in the Bernie Brigade.

[MellowDem]

85. Im sorry you have to resort to personal smears...

Because you ain't got shit to say on topic.

Hillary is privileged in a lot of ways, and sometimes it pays to be a woman, and the Vietnam draft was one of those times.

So, anything she has to say on this will come from the mouth of privilege, as it often does with her.

Some of her supporters seem to generally be all about supporting privilege and the status quo though. Her policies certainly do.

[RandySF]

86. No, it's just plain sexist

And that comment doesn't deserve the effort in trying to rationalize it.

[MellowDem]

87. Hmm, I think your comment is sexist...

Denying an obvious privilege based on gender? I think you need to check your and Hillary's privilege.

If you think my comment was sexist, you would have said why by now if you wanted a discussion, instead of just being a bully.

[ismnotwasm]

95. Women in the US can finally fight in combat.

It wasn't "privilege" that kept them out of it. Nor is it a privilege to be slaughtered --deliberately targeted-- in the course of war or raped as a war weapon. Or suffer the economic consequences of having a spouse dead or disabled in war.

It actually not a priviledge to fight in war--which I think is your actual point--I'm not under the impression you use standard MRA talking points as a debate device. Not at all sir.

[MellowDem]

140. You call me sir? What's with the sexism bro?

I just like to point out the hypocrisy of people that scream sexism for no apparent reason.

And yes, it definitely was privilege for women not to worry about the draft. Unless you're saying that white people not being profiled by police isn't a privilege because it shouldn't happen to anyone? Weird how you seem to be trying to redefine privilege for some reason.... Sounds like an MRA talking point, that something isn't a privilege because it shouldn't happen to anyone.

Really, I just respond to Internet bullies with snark, it's all they deserve.

A lot of people don't understand that there are all types of privilege beyond just being a white and male.

[catnhatnh]

123. I've seen people singing about "old white men"

but I'll tell you this ALL old men faced a life or death lottery that was distinctly not a privelege...

[Logical]

134. LOL, once again, many Bernie fans LOVE Warren. Think really hard about that! LOL. nt

[cali]

93. Ugh. She sure as hell does have a say.

[sarge43]

181. It wasn't a privilege; it was a restriction.

There isn't a mumbling word in the draft laws that specifically precludes women. In fact toward the end of WWII congress came within an ace of drafting nurses. Until mid 50's only women could serve in the Nurse Corps. A couple of court cases ruled that DOD didn't have to draft women.

During the draft era it was pointless to draft women for the following reasons.

1. Only 2% of the active duty force could be female.

2. Due to the combat restriction very few jobs allowed women, especially in the Army and Marine Corps. When I enlisted in '62 only five Air Force jobs were open to women.

3. Except for a very short period during WWII there has always been more women volunteering than there were slots available. My recruiter told me that for every ten women volunteering only one was accepted.

You might focus your anger at the male legislators, C-in-Cs and jurists who imposed these restrictions.

[MellowDem]

221. I'm not angry at Hillary...

Because she is privileged regarding the draft, I'm just stating she is privileged in this regard, and therefore wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on when commenting on the morality of skipping the draft etc.

Some restrictions can be privileges, and this definitely was one.

Being restricted from being forced into a war? Sounds like a nice advantage to me.

People don't choose to be privileged.

[RandySF]

82. So is attacking Hillary for being a woman during the war

[wendylaroux]

127. Hillary was a woman during the war?

[shadowmayor]

84. Warrior for Peace

As a retired Sergeant, OIF3 combat veteran and now permanently pissed-off civilian I respect the CO position far more than the hypocritical BS spewed by the likes of Ted the pedophile Nugent, Newt - I had other priorities, Darth Cheney and his 5 deferments, or Mittens on his bicycle mission who all then supported the Viet Nam War. A war they wouldn't put their own butts into.

CO is an honorable position. Period. I would have liked to do the same, but I signed the line and the thought of another going in my place was too much to bear. It's complicated. I'm all for an anti-war candidate and it's about time!

What did the Iraqi people ever do to us? We've been killing them for ~25 years now.

And why is Cheney a free man?

[sarge43]

206. What a lot people don't get

Conscientious Objectors aren't saying they won't serve; they say they won't kill anyone in any war. They can and do serve in many ways, including the military.

You're right. It is honorable and should be respected.

[KingCharlemagne]

207. +Infinity! - nt

[daybranch]

89. As a Vietnam combat vet, I respect conscientous objectors more

than those of us who bowed to societal pressure to do what we really knew was wrong. Go Bernie!

[HereSince1628]

90. For boomers,especially males who faced conscription Vietnam was a big deal

Almost everyone who lived that experience came away with the very important awareness that the draft was really bad way to manage personnel requirements for proxy wars which never threatened the US at any existential level.

Now, drafting people to save the country when the country or large regions of the world of our closest economic allies -really- needs protection from destruction is not always a bad thing. People can get behind such defense.

But drafting to provide rivers of blood to carry on a conflict mostly conducted to be an obstacle and irritant to economic foes is really pretty stupid.

Not just because such wars without meaningful objectives are pointless pissing matches between superpowers, which VN was, but engagements in such wars are gigantic economic and political blunders. They simply run as an assembly line for a decade or so and chew up much of a generation of young men and create a very very expensive legacy of veterans care that lasts half a century or more.

I don't have any problem with people who 'dodged' the draft, or those who fulfilled their draft call, or those like me 'enlisted to avoid the draft', or those who enlisted because they thought it was a good thing to do. It's over, we who faced it surviving it one way or another learned lessons that guide our thinking

And it's my thinking about the lessons I learned that make me reject politicians and think-tankers who promote 'interventional" warfare, in an attempt to secure 'protected' spheres of economic control (you can read as that as corporate imperialism and neo-colonialism).

So, to the end of preventing a politician interested in 'interventional warfare" this Vietnam vet doesn't have a problem voting for a draft-dodger, whose intent is to avoid needless interventions.

Indeed, it chaffs my sagging ass to be asked to vote for a warhawk with brains up his or her cloaca who believes the destiny of this nation and 'the free-world' depends on such stupid interventions.

To that end, I'm not going to favor a person from that generation who never learned its obvious lessons and who after many decades still believes interventionism is a great way to give corporate towers control a share of the Landsraad.

[KingCharlemagne]

215. 'pointless pissing matches' - with all due respect to your otherwise fine post, I don't

think the Vietnamese people saw it as a 'pointless pissing match' but more as a war for national liberation. I have a couple Vietnamese students this term. They are the hardest-working students i have ever had the privilege of teaching and, while their English skills may be limited, there is little doubt in my mind why they constituted such fierce adversaries.

On a semi-humorous note, these students tell me that they call the time the 'War with America' (to distinguish it from the 'War with the French,' the 'War with the Chinese,' and the 'War with the Japanese'

[HereSince1628]

249. Speaking from the US perspective it was a pointless proxy war, re liberation...

That fight had been going on in Vietnam since before WWII.

And it went pretty bad for the French, Japan and then the French again.

[Skidmore]

96. In what alternate universe did that occur.

This thread is the first claim of that sort I've ever seen.

[KingCharlemagne]

222. Geesh. Do you even bother to read a thread before you post? LInks to the relevant posts and

op-ed in question have been posted throughout this thread.

[Skidmore]

225. This is the first time I have revisited this thread since yesterday.

Geesh. At that point, I had seen precisely two threads making this claim. I don't spend every waking minute here. Geesh.

[karynnj]

97. HRC's supporters should show the grace that Kerry did in 1992 when he defended her husband's Vietnam

avoidance. If it becomes an issue, Hillary Clinton personally should say that Bernie avoiding the draft - just as Bill did -- because they were against the Vietnam war is NOT a disqualifier. Kerry's words from 1992 resonate even more when they are spoken of someone like Bernie Sanders, whose entire career is consistent with his stands from the 1960s.

Back in 2008, I put John Kerry's 1992 Senate speech in a DU post when Obama's patriotism was questioned. Here from the DU2 journal:

There was a time when Bill Clinton's patriotism was challenged
Posted by karynnj in General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009)
Fri Mar 21st 2008, 04:14 PM
It was February, 1992. His challenger, a highly decorated Vietnam veteran was calling him out as a draft dodger. This had the potential of again ripping the country apart over Vietnam. Another Senator,also a highly decorated veteran, who was friend of Clinton's challenger took to the floor of the Senate to make a plea against inserting the rifts from the Vietnam War into the primary.

Here are the words said on the Senate floor in 1992:


Mr. KERRY. Mr. President, I also rise today--and I want to say that I rise reluctantly, but I rise feeling driven by personal reasons of necessity--to express my very deep disappointment over yesterday's turn of events in the Democratic primary in Georgia.

I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way. By that I mean that yesterday, during this Presidential campaign, and even throughout recent times, Vietnam has been discussed and written about without an adequate statement of its full meaning.

What is ignored is the way in which our experience during that period reflected in part a positive affirmation of American values and history, not simply the more obvious negatives of loss and confusion.

What is missing is a recognition that there exists today a generation that has come into its own with powerful lessons learned, with a voice that has been grounded in experiences both of those who went to Vietnam and those who did not.

What is missing and what cries out to be said is that neither one group nor the other from that difficult period of time has cornered the market on virtue or rectitude or love of country.

What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be refighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a Presidential primary.

The race for the White House should be about leadership, and leadership requires that one help heal the wounds of Vietnam , not reopen them; that one help identify the positive things that we learned about ourselves and about our Nation, not play to the divisions and differences of that crucible of our generation.

We do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have personally always believed that many served in many different ways. Someone who was deeply against the war in 1969 or 1970 may well have served their country with equal passion and patriotism by opposing the war as by fighting in it. Are we

now, 20 years or 30 years later, to forget the difficulties of that time, of families that were literally torn apart, of brothers who ceased to talk to brothers, of fathers who disowned their sons, of people who felt compelled to leave the country and forget their own future and turn against the will of their own aspirations?

Are we now to descend, like latter-day Spiro Agnews, and play, as he did, to the worst instincts of divisiveness and reaction that still haunt America? Are we now going to create a new scarlet letter in the context of Vietnam ?

Certainly, those who went to Vietnam suffered greatly. I have argued for years, since I returned myself in 1969, that they do deserve special affection and gratitude for service. And, indeed, I think everything I have tried to do since then has been to fight for their rights and recognition.

But while those who served are owed special recognition, that recognition should not come at the expense of others; nor does it require that others be victimized or criticized or said to have settled for a lesser standard. To divide our party or our country over this issue today, in 1992, simply does not do justice to what all of us went through during that tragic and turbulent time.

I would like to make a simple and straightforward appeal, an appeal from my heart, as well as from my head. To all those currently pursuing the Presidency in both parties, I would plead that they simply look at America. We are a nation crying out for leadership, for someone who will bring us together and raise our sights. We are a nation looking for someone who will lift our spirits and give us confidence that together we can grow out of this recession and conquer the myriad of social ills we have at home.

We do not need more division. We certainly do not need something as complex and emotional as Vietnam reduced to simple campaign rhetoric. What has been said has been said, Mr. President, but I hope and pray we will put it behind us and go forward in a constructive spirit for the good of our party and the good of our country. "

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are somethings that should never be injected into an election - race, faith, patriotism ...
I wish that Bill Clinton, having been given the honor given to only 43 people in our history of being President, would have had the grace that Senator Kerry showed in 1992 when he made this obviously personal plea against an earlier version of politics of destruction.

[DallasNE]

99. Bernie Is Too Old For Vietnam

Had Bernie been drafted he would have been taken in early 1964. He could well have been sent to South Korea but with 2 years of service he would have needed to go to Vietnam in the spring of 1965 with a pending discharge 10 months later. While Vietnam was in the early stages of the build-up he likely would not have had his other duty end early just to send him to Vietnam. I had 2 friends wait for the draft and they both went at 22 1/2 and my timeline is based on this age. We're all 1 year older than Sanders so dates have been adjusted accordingly. After military school one friend went to Korea and the other to Fort Lewis, staying stateside all 2 years.

Sanders has a September birthday so he could have had classmates some 10-11 months younger than him that could have ended up in Vietnam. That is how tight the timeline is.

[Doctor_J]

101. maybe Hillary will stick up for him, like he did for her re benghazi

And maybe Scarlett Johansson will ask me to be her boy toy for 2016

[stupidicus]

102. well, they're competing for most contemptible and baseless or hypocritical smear

eom

[ErikJ]

104. 2 things: VN was a huge moral mistake and Bernie isnt a chicken hawk...........

like the Republicans who are advocating for more war.

[valerief]

107. The hypocrisy is expanding faster than the universe. nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

110. ....seeing if it sticks....

[R B Garr]

112. Exactly, and it's nonsensical on top of that.

Yikes.

[dpatbrown]

114. Total

I totally agree with you. I had four deferments in the 60s, going to college, and making a family by 1970. They almost got me but my doctor wrote a letter, back problems. If it hadn't kept me out, I was on my way to Canada with my family in toll. BUT, I always regretted not filing for CO, because that was, and still is, the most honest way to live. I've always had tons of respect for David Harris because he opted to go to prison. With his wife, Joan Baez, be could have stayed out.
So many folks took the easy way out, including myself, so to stay home, and pay the consequences, was the right thing to do.

I respect Bernie Sanders even more for his honesty.

[Tarc]

117. No serious Hillary supporter is taking this line of attack

Personally, someone if dodged the quagmire of Vietnam, it makes me want to support that person more, not less.

[baldguy]

119. Not unlike the attacks Bernie's supporters have mounted about the Clinton "scandals" from the '90s

Last edited Tue Dec 29, 2015, 08:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Which have the additional feature of being largely untrue.

[chervilant]

149. Here we go again...

a glib assertion with no verification--we're supposed to just take you at your word? I've seen most of the pro-Bernie OPs, and have yet to see a Sanders supporter dredge up HRC "scandals" from the 90s.

There's entirely too much current "scandalous" stuff about HRC, which I'm sure excites the Republicans to no end.

[baldguy]

153. Where do you think the idea that the Clintons are corrupt & untrustworthy comes from?

It's entirely the creation of the Arkansas Project and the VRWC.

We've already had Paula Jones:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251871297

and Monica:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251877632

Plus endless posts about everything else:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251858165

These "scandals" have no basis in reality. Yet these ideas are the bedrock of anti-Clinton prejudice displayed by supposedly progressive Sanders supporters.

[backscatter712]

120. The Swarm seems to be getting desperate.

DWS's craven attempt to Dean-Scream Bernie out of the race blew up in the face of the Third Way.

Now Bernie's poll numbers are rising again, and he's in the danger zone in quite a few primaries.

A half-brained smear like this reeks of desperation.

[ViseGrip]

133. Desparate for sure, this is a most uneducated and disgusting thread ever on DU!

[silvershadow]

122. At least he had the balls to stand for something. He could have gotten multiple

deferments, as Cheney et al did, or could have went AWOL like Bush did.

[KingCharlemagne]

223. Silly SilverShadow, don't you know that Cheney merely had 'othe priorities'? Hope

you recognize that my sarcasm is not directed at you, my rage directed at an American people that would allow a shitstain like Cheney to have even a moment of national prominence.

[silvershadow]

239. Oh that's right. Thanks for jogging my memory. I forgot the elite have the luxury of

deciding what their priorities are.

[emulatorloo]

126. It is just stupid.

Mind boggling to think this was raised as an issue.

[Charmingshmuck]

128. Bernie is the most qualified

It doesn't.
Bernie is the most qualified.
As Dr. Martin Luther King stated...during the Vietnam war
"The United States is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world"
Bernie , Who was in DC during the march on Washington,(unlike Hilary who was a Goldwater girl working to elect a man who actively fought against civil rights legislation)
of course Bernie would not have fought in such an immoral conflict . When the democrats were in power , Bernie was the chairman of the senate veterans affairs committee. As many are aware,this is a dead end committee, unlike the" Ways and means committee" or the banking committee there is no financial reward nor political gain associated with this.

You aren't gonna see any any big checks from fat cats contributors agreeing with your policy decisions.Bernie fought for veterans rights ceaselessly .

Bernie worked hard for a much needed new GI Bill, bringing both democrats and republicans together.

This makes him more qualified than anyone else running for president in 2016.

[Doctor_J]

138. welcome

you'll find that the Clintonites are morphing into Karl Rove wannabes with each passing day, in their campaign tactics and in their pro-corporation and pro-war politics. Then when Mrs. Clinton loses next November, all of the people they insulted and lied about will be blamed for not turning out to vote for the Koch Brothers' water carrier.

Good to have you here.

[azureblue]

129. you wanna talk about the issues?

I'll pay attention. You wanna conduct an attack and smear campaign? You just lost my vote.

[Hekate]

130. Who the hell from the Clinton campaign ever said that? Or who here? What a ridiculous ....

....post.

[keithbvadu2]

132. The best excuse for not serving in the military? Tom Delay

Why Tom Delay could not serve in the military:::::::

He and Quayle, DeLay explained to the assembled media in New Orleans, were victims of an unusual phenomenon back in the days of the undeclared Southeast Asian war. So many minority youths had volunteered for the well-paying military positions to escape poverty and the ghetto that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself. Satisfied with the pronouncement, which dumbfounded more than a few of his listeners who had lived the sixties, DeLay marched off to the convention.

Chatterbox has heard many draft-dodger alibis in his time, but he has never heard anyone plead reverse discrimination.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/chatterbox/1999/05/what_did_you_do_in_the_war_hammer.html

[Stargleamer]

135. Being a Conscientious Objector during Vietnam just makes me like him more

He'd be a much better president than anyone, even better than FDR whose presidency was marred by internment camps & failures to do more to help Jews during WWII. Better than JFK who got us a bit more entrenched in Vietnam (and supported the wrong side in Guatemala).

[Douglas Carpenter]

136. it's silly season

[Warren DeMontague]

137. He committed the offense of being a CO, and dammit, people here will make him ANSWER for it!

And by CO I mean, of course, "Clinton Opponent"

[gwheezie]

139. I don't have a problem with it

I'm an HRC supporter. I thought it was an honorable thing to do. My husband tried to get co status, the army made him a medic instead. He served. He was not opposed to one particular war, he told them he would rather die and his fellow soldiers die if he was told to kill someone. He told them over and over to not count on him to kill anyone. When he was in basic training he was so inept with any kind of weapon that medic seemed like the best job for him. He was a great medic.

[Uncle Joe]

141. As a former Marine, I have the utmost respect for Bernie and have no qualms

with him being Commander In Chief, in fact it's rather comforting.

Thanks for the thread, cali.

[gordyfl]

143. Who was the Last President who was a Veteran?

Not Obama.

Bush, but he was suspended from the National Guard.

VP Cheney had 5 deferments.

Both Bush and Cheney said they supported the Vietnam War, but...

Bill Clinton? No.

Hillary? No, she was working on Rockefeller's campaign.

John McCain was, but he lost the election.

John Kerry, in my opinion, was a war hero, but he lost.

How about Al Gore? It doesn't matter. He lost.

Now that I think about this, I don't think it matters.

[sarge43]

169. Bush wasn't suspended from the Guard

He had his flight status pulled and pushed paper until he got an early out for school. Technically he is a veteran - just.

[Live and Learn]

144. The hypocrisy is absolutely astonishing. nt

[bl968]

145. At least Bernie Sanders didn't make up a lie about it.

Then you have Hillary claiming she tried to enlist but the marines rejected her.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/11/12/hillary-clintons-claim-that-she-tried-to-join-the-marines/

[AgingAmerican]

147. They never, ever talk about policy

...ever.

[upaloopa]

178. I was drafted and was sent to Vietnam. I don't care what others did to avoid the war.

What does bother me is people like you who use our dilemma (of having to choose what to do, claiming CO or moving to Canada or getting sent to war) for your political convenience. It discounts what our lives meant to us at that point in time.

[Thinkingabout]

185. A smear? Did he or did he not request CO status? If

He did request CO status then it would not be a smear to make this statement.

[NurseJackie]

202. *IF* Bernie were too be the nominee, the GOP would pursue this ...

... with much more vigor and venom than witnessed here. (Not only this matter, but the GOP machine would also go full throttle with other aspects that are forbidden to be discussed here.)

[NCTraveler]

213. K&R

Though I think these should be in the running.

An op titled "Hillary Clinton Beats up Old Man"

That was a classic that stood for weeks before being self deleted.

Multiple comments and ops about Vince Foster. Has to be in the running.

An op stating that all POC and all members of the lgbqt community are stupid or suffering from mental defect if they support Clinton. That's another one I'm sure you would agree has to make your list, though there was truly not one single laughable thing about it.

Lots and lots of ops in the running. You are correct here. His dodging shouldn't be used against him. True. I don't think it will have an impact if someone tries.

[H2O Man]

230. Definitely recommended.

Muhammad Ali was a CO during Vietnam. In my opinion, he remains the greatest hero of the war.

[Recursion]

258. The problem is, he has since voted for military actions

And that contrast would be a killer hit piece in the general.